SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[LemonHaze]

Are you aware that these two statements cancel each other out? People are upset that Ryo is just as bone-headed as he was in the first game. That's the issue (well, one of them). We're 3 games and 60+ hours in and he's still got his head up his ass with no understanding of the bigger picture and seemingly zero self awareness. Shenmue 4 and 5 don't suddenly make that masterful storytelling.

Can you explain how they cancel eachother out?

 

[iknifaugood]

I think you're generalizing fans now. No game is above critical acclaim or failure. Shenmue is no exception to that rule. Some fans (yes we've seen them here) think Shenmue is above that but you will see the majority here are quite open to the criticisms laid out. They may not agree with them wholeheartedly, that's their personal opinions.

Again the Yakuza v Shenmue thing is something of nothing. They're different games and if anything you see more Yakuza fans saying "Shenmue but good" than Shenmue fans saying Yakuza sucks. There's alot of love for that series here, myself included as I own the mainline 1-6 games. Theres even a Yakuza thread here with many active posters in the Shenmue threads posting in there. Whether that love is felt wider I've no idea but I'm going on what's here.

So yes while it sounds familiar it's a little unjust given the history outlined, Shenmue fans have a right to be wary given the past treatment. Not saying all of the treatment was unjustified, it wasn't, but some certainly wasn't.

Again, I don't disagree with any of that. I think Shenmue is unjustly characterized, just as adventure games were. I just think there's a specific reason why Shenmue and its fans are such a prime target for ridicule. I don't think all Shenmue fans are shitty like that, just like all adventure game fans weren't, but the perception of them as such is what allows people to get off on making fun of them. Fair or not, Shenmue fans are frequently viewed as self-serious elitists, unaware of why their favorite series isn't beloved by the masses--they're not in on the joke. In that article, the author points to the most ridiculous puzzle in an otherwise pretty good game: a puzzle that no one, not even fans of the game, likes or defends, Would the article have caught on if it was about Le Serpent Rouge (the best puzzle in GK3 and one of the best in the genre)? Probably not, because that's the exception, rather than the rule and the article is indicative of a broader criticism of the genre (an emphasis on busywork, bizarre leaps in logic, stupid MacGuyver inventory puzzles). It's unfair and a little cruel, but damned if it isn't rooted in at least some truth.

 

[LemonHaze]

I'm sorry but this simply doesn't hold water. If there are five games in a particular series and one of them is seen as being the worst game of the series, the quality of the series, as a whole, may not be greatly diminished as long as the other games in the series are great games. But what if you have five mediocre games? Then you don't got a good series.

You're effectively saying criticising Shenmue 3 is pointless because it's not a standalone game and the quality of the series, as a whole, is not diminished.

No, not at all. I'm saying that for one to criticise this entry in the series, you would need a little bit more context and concrete information, just as we did with Shenmue I and II's ending, this is obvious to me. Criticising it as a standalone game only really grants you the ability to touch on some of the story design, but not all, for reasons already discussed and mechanics etc etc.

That's where I disagree. Because the ending for Shenmue I and II both had a lot of redeeming qualities: They were proper buildup OR they delivered on what the games was building up.

The text in bold also proves my point: You can only truly criticise the ending/potentially entire story of Shenmue III, when you know exactly what was being built up etc, in other words, knowing what Shenmue IV's story is.

 

[LemonHaze]

Just to make my opinion more understood:

I'm not saying I loved Shenmue III through-and-through and that there are absolutely no issues or anything of the sort. I'm simply stating that it is not really possible to truly (and in an unbiased manner) criticise the story of Shenmue III (right now) because we simply do not have enough information on its relevance in the overall story.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think it’s becoming very clear that it’s going to take something drastic for Ryo to realize the gravity of his situation and as of yet, aside from perhaps Nozomi being kidnapped in the first game, I don’t think he’s really had to face any real consequences for his choices other than the odd beat down.

From a narrative point of view, I think Ryo remaining determined at the end of S3 makes a lot of sense (although I agree that the ‘you’d better not run’ inner-monologue was a tad strange). He has literally overcome every obstacle in his path right up to the final encounter with Lan Di in spite of (and perhaps to some extent, because of) his stubbornness. Even then, he still walked away from it relatively unscathed.

There’s certainly an argument to be made that these consequences could and perhaps should have occurred somewhere throughout Shenmue 3, but realistically, it’s likely to take something big for Ryo to take a step back and see the bigger picture. Big like Ren’s death, for example (it could also be Shenhua, but given her importance to the narrative, it seems very likely that she’ll stick things out until the end).

If Ren still has a part to play in the story (apart from his death), killing him off in 3 wouldn’t have been an option for Suzuki nor do I think the relationship between Ren and Ryo has been developed enough for the death to really hit hard enough at this point (it would have been nice to see their relationship developed a little more in S3 to this end if this is where the story is heading).

The pacing of Shenmue’s story feeling a little disjointed is a problem that the series has faced since the very beginning, but there is clearly a plan in place and as some of these narrative decisions begin to pay off later on, I’m sure they will make a lot more sense than they do now. I don’t think this changes whether or not Shenmue 3 is a good or bad game, but it does perhaps improve the perception of 3’s narrative as part of the larger, overarching Shenmue narrative.

I'm not saying that the story such as it is doesn't "make sense", I'm saying that more should have happened in S3 for it to feel meaningful. No, Ren dying at the end would not have made a ton of sense, but only if the ending stayed the same no matter what. Imagine for a second that we went directly from Bailu to the Castle section, with the Lan Di fight happening somewhere near the halfway point. We could have gone even farther in the narrative and perhaps arrived at a point in the story where Ren could have died (or something equally momentous and meaningful). We'd be left wondering what was going to happen next rather than, oh Ryo is going to try to fight Lan Di again? Why's he doing that? S4 could draw itself out and end with Ryo once again losing to Lan Di and now the CYM know where the treasure is, now tune in to Shenmue 5! and it would still "make sense" but at a certain point things have to develop. I think S3 should have been that point.

Can you explain how they cancel eachother out?

A character who has remained static in his single-minded motivation for 3 installments can't really be said to have "intricacies". Quite the opposite.

 

[Suzaku]

Can I remind everyone that back in 1999 Shenmue was a game that divided people. In 1999 people thought this game was boring, mundane, and unenjoyable. Likewise some people thought it was inspirational, revolutionary, etc. So the fact that so many people are divided on this game still speaks to the fact of what Shenmue has always been.

Yeah Shenmue was a divisive game since the beginning.
Previously I said that Shenmue 3 also worked as a purge for fake fans.

Well reading on various forums I noticed that some of the so called fans complained about 3 for the same reasons people in 1999 complained for Shenmue 1, just like if Shenmue 3 was their first game in the series ("it's boring, why I have to talk to NPCs, why I have to work" etc.).

I find it really strange,
I still don't know what happened in some people mind during these 20 years, but I think it's safe to assume that some fans in 1999 were just fans of the graphics and liked the characters and story and nothing more. Your average Final Fantasy fan.
They probably never grasped the essence that made shenmue unique.
Now imagine how distorted this superficial love can become after 20 years... ("I wasted my life")

It just took one game with less "production values" to trasform fans in super-haters...

 

[WuyingRen]

I'm not saying that the story such as it is doesn't "make sense", I'm saying that more should have happened in S3 for it to feel meaningful. No, Ren dying at the end would not have made a ton of sense, but only if the ending stayed the same no matter what. Imagine for a second that we went directly from Bailu to the Castle section, with the Lan Di fight happening somewhere near the halfway point. We could have gone even farther in the narrative and perhaps arrived at a point in the story where Ren could have died (or something equally momentous and meaningful). We'd be left wondering what was going to happen next rather than, oh Ryo is going to try to fight Lan Di again? Why's he doing that? S4 could draw itself out and end with Ryo once again losing to Lan Di and now the CYM know where the treasure is, now tune in to Shenmue 5! and it would still "make sense" but at a certain point things have to develop. I think S3 should have been that point.


A character who has remained static in his single-minded motivation for 3 installments can't really be said to have "intricacies". Quite the opposite.

I think it’s worth remembering that a rather significant chunk of Shenmue 3 was cut (Baisha) and so it’s very likely that the ending that we got was a rewrite of sorts. It’s possible that they just weren’t able to cram all of the narrative elements that had been planned for the game in. If they were half way through Niawou when the decision to scrap Baisha was made, it’s not like they could go back and completely re-write everything (especially as we know that lack of budget was the reason that Baisha was scrapped). These things in mind, I think the ending that we got was more than serviceable.

It’s difficult to speculate how the narrative of Shenmue 3 might prove to be significant moving forwards, but as Lemon says, one of the seeds planted in 3 might bare fruit further down the line.

I’ve noticed for example that over time, Ren has grown confident in Ryo’s ability and supported him in his quest for vengeance without questioning him. Towards the beginning of their relationship he has little respect for Ryo as a martial artist (even going as far as to bet against him in one of the street fights), but by the time Ryo is face to face with Lan Di, Ren clearly thinks that Ryo has a chance.

Perhaps Ren witnessing how effortlessly Lan Di beat Ryo will lead to Ren laying some hard truths on Ryo at the beginning of Shenmue 3 and we’ll start to see some friction between the pair? Wouldn’t Ryo ignoring Ren’s warning (borne from the events of S3’s ending) make Ren’s death hit a lot harder for Ryo?

Only Suzuki knows where the story is heading, but until he’s taken us on that journey I don’t see how anybody can label Shenmue 3’s narrative as simply filler. Underdeveloped perhaps, but certainly not without meaning.

 

[hmjohnny]

I find it really strange,
I still don't know what happened in some people mind during these 20 years, but I think it's safe to assume that some fans in 1999 were just fans of the graphics and liked the characters and story and nothing more. Your average Final Fantasy fan.
They probably never grasped the essence that made shenmue unique.
Now imagine how distorted this superficial love can become after 20 years... ("I wasted my life")

Shenmue 2 happened.

That game fooled all of us "fake fans" into believing Shenmue was good. Those of us who plodded through 10 hours of forklifting because of the hope that this interesting premise was actually going somewhere interesting. Then Shenmue 3 happened and recast all of our hopes into doubt.

Sorry to say but some people who like Shenmue also have mainstream sensibilities.

 

[Sonoshee]

Shenmue 2 happened.

That game fooled all of us "fake fans" into believing Shenmue was good. Those of us who plodded through 10 hours of forklifting because of the hope that this interesting premise was actually going somewhere interesting. Then Shenmue 3 happened and recast all of our hopes into doubt.

How you can say the story isn't going somewhere interesting based on one entry, with over 50% of the story still left to be told, I haven't a clue.

 

[LemonHaze]

A character who has remained static in his single-minded motivation for 3 installments can't really be said to have "intricacies". Quite the opposite.

Ah, lmfao. So you're now assuming that I must have only been talking about Ryo. How about Ren's relevance in the overall story? Is he really one-dimensional, like Ryo?

 

[hmjohnny]

How you can say the story isn't going somewhere interesting based on one entry, with over 50% of the story still left to be told, I haven't a clue.

I'm not saying that for sure, hence why I'm still on board. I'm saying that S3 cast some doubt. It took the series in a direction I don't like, both story and gameplay wise (linked in a way). After Shenmue 2, Shenmue 3 only feels like 50% of a Shenmue game to me.

It makes me question what the point of this series is if after a 30 hour installment so little gets developed and the story doesn't change much I have to ask either this was a wasted opportunity to develop the series further or the story wasn't that good to begin with.

In the case of SEPW he seems to have been turned off so much that he ostensibly is abandoning the series. It's somewhat infuriating to see people keep saying that if you don't like Shenmue 3 you don't like Shenmue because it sounds to me like this is the direction the series is heading going forward.

 

[danielmann861]

How you can say the story isn't going somewhere interesting based on one entry, with over 50% of the story still left to be told, I haven't a clue.

Also, did everyone forget that SIII ended with a hostile inner conflict within the Chi You Men? The mirrors now being in the Chi You Men’s possession? Further pieces of the puzzle being exposed (I.e Lan Di’s father was actually trying to protect the mirrors)

I mean, yes, the story telling could have been better and arguably could have been more developed but it’s not like III didn‘t set a stage for things to come.

 

[spud1897]

Shenmue 2 happened.

That game fooled all of us "fake fans" into believing Shenmue was good. Those of us who plodded through 10 hours of forklifting because of the hope that this interesting premise was actually going somewhere interesting. Then Shenmue 3 happened and recast all of our hopes into doubt.

Sorry to say but some people who like Shenmue also have mainstream sensibilities.

Right I'm saying this again. No one has said anyone is a fake fan.

There's an exchange of views. That's all this is. Whether you agree with that view is up to you but throwing around the fake fan word because it's a disagreement isn't on.

Also let me make this clear. Anyone calling anyone else a fake fan, on any side of the discussion, will receive a 24 hour ban.

 

[iknifaugood]

It just took one game with less "production values" to trasform fans in super-haters...

No, just a bad game.

I think it’s worth remembering that a rather significant chunk of Shenmue 3 was cut (Baisha) and so it’s very likely that the ending that we got was a rewrite of sorts. It’s possible that they just weren’t able to cram all of the narrative elements that had been planned for the game in. If they were half way through Niawou when the decision to scrap Baisha was made, it’s not like they could go back and completely re-write everything (especially as we know that lack of budget was the reason that Baisha was scrapped). These things in mind, I think the ending that we got was more than serviceable.

I'm sympathetic about this to a point, but I firmly believe that Baisha was essentially an expanded version of the castle section and that S3, as it currently exists, was always intended to have this particular ending in the broad strokes. I don't think Baisha was ever going to be the next chapter after the castle section, but who knows?

It’s difficult to speculate how the narrative of Shenmue 3 might prove to be significant moving forwards, but as Lemon says, one of the seeds planted in 3 might bare fruit further down the line.

I’ve noticed for example that over time, Ren has grown confident in Ryo’s ability and supported him in his quest for vengeance without questioning him. Towards the beginning of their relationship he has little respect for Ryo as a martial artist (even going as far as to bet against him in one of the street fights), but by the time Ryo is face to face with Lan Di, Ren clearly thinks that Ryo has a chance.

Perhaps Ren witnessing how effortlessly Lan Di beat Ryo will lead to Ren laying some hard truths on Ryo at the beginning of Shenmue 3 and we’ll start to see some friction between the pair? Wouldn’t Ryo ignoring Ren’s warning (borne from the events of S3’s ending) make Ren’s death hit a lot harder for Ryo?

You just wrote a better Shenmue 3 ending than Yu Suzuki or Super Eyepatch Wolf. I understand that budget comes into play but, seriously, why couldn't Shenmue 3 (I think we all take for granted that this is Shenmue 3, the game that was never supposed to exist) be that game? What's the benefit of kicking the can down the road? Instead of Niaowu being a massive town where a whole lot of nothing happens, take us to the fucking Cliff Temple! Maybe even tell us what the CYM want with the treasure and have the cliff hanger be something totally unforeseen (like S2)! Video game stories can cover a ton of ground.

How about Ren's relevance in the overall story? Is he really one-dimensional, like Ryo?

Thief with a heart of gold. I love Ren but seriously? He's introduced to us only caring about treasure and as of the ending to S3, he still only cares about treasure. Lots of great places for his and Ryo's relationship to go, too bad S3 didn't go to those places.

 

[Sonoshee]

S3, as it currently exists, was always intended to have this particular ending in the broad strokes.

Cedric confirmed it himself that the ending we got was not the one that was originally planned.

 

[Sonoshee]

It makes me question what the point of this series is if after a 30 hour installment so little gets developed and the story doesn't change much I have to ask either this was a wasted opportunity to develop the series further or the story wasn't that good to begin with.

Or that development was on a budget and the original scenario writer who was onboard for the first two games was absent from the third game.
True, S3 could have unfolded more of the story, I've always agreed with this.
But although it may not have had much of it to go with, it doesn't suddenly mean that the overall story isn't very good. We can't make assumptions on what we haven't seen yet.

 

[WuyingRen]

You just wrote a better Shenmue 3 ending than Yu Suzuki or Super Eyepatch Wolf. I understand that budget comes into play but, seriously, why couldn't Shenmue 3 (I think we all take for granted that this is Shenmue 3, the game that was never supposed to exist) be that game? What's the benefit of kicking the can down the road? Instead of Niaowu being a massive town where a whole lot of nothing happens, take us to the fucking Cliff Temple! Maybe even tell us what the CYM want with the treasure and have the cliff hanger be something totally unforeseen (like S2)! Video game stories can cover a ton of ground.

But this the point people are trying to make. Perhaps something along those lines was planned for Baisha and will now take place at the beginning of Shenmue 4 instead.

When looking at the complete Shenmue narrative (once all is said and done), what does it matter if an event happens at the end of one game or the beginning of another? It’s all part of the same story.

I do get people’s frustration that Shenmue 3 perhaps lacked that big pay-off moment, but as I said earlier in this thread when discussing SEPW’s theoretical ending, given where we are in the story it would have felt cheap for them to have shoe-horned one in.

Maybe if time and budget hasn’t forced them to scrap Baisha we would have gotten one.

 

[Suzaku]

Shenmue 2 happened.

That game fooled all of us "fake fans" into believing Shenmue was good. Those of us who plodded through 10 hours of forklifting because of the hope that this interesting premise was actually going somewhere interesting. Then Shenmue 3 happened and recast all of our hopes into doubt.

Sorry to say but some people who like Shenmue also have mainstream sensibilities.

Then you agree with me that some of the fans were on board only for the "bells and the whistles", and since shenmue 3 didn't have those in the same amount of S1 and S2 in particular...

It's not an issue to have mainstream sensibilities, but it become an issue when some people try to force their personal vision in a series that always had a unique vision that is the opposite of the average modern Marvel movie for example.
The action sections of Shenmue 2 maybe deceived some people, but maybe you forgot that Shenmue 2 is also the game when you air books and take long walks in the mountains just speaking with a girl.

 

[danielmann861]

The formula of Shenmue is pretty simple really. Ryo retracing the footsteps of his father on the hunt for the man who killed him. His only goal remains that of vengeance. Deep down, that is all he cares about. Meanwhile around him there is a much bigger plot going on, but because he is so consumed with his need for vengeance he is mostly blinded to it. He’s not letting it in because he is so consumed by vengeance. Same way he didn’t truly let the WUDE in. He may have learned about it but did he truly take it in? Like others, I’m waiting for that moment to click for him that this is bigger than his need for vengence and like others, I thought III was going to be the chapter to make that happen.

But at the end of the III, all we have is conjecture and hearsay. We honestly have no clue what these mirrors do. One person says they summon mythical forces. Another says they will resurrect an army. Another says they’re a key to treasure. All hear say and conjecture but no one has given a solid answer. And I don’t think we will get a solid answer until the mirrors are actually combined and brought to their place of action. Which is exactly what III sets up come the end. Ryo had to lose his first encounter with Lan Di no matter what. The mirrors had to end up in the enemies hands to keep moving the larger story forward. The mirrors are in the enemies hands. IV seems like the place where we will finally get an answer we seek.

In a way, III had to happen the way it happened. Could it have been developed better? Arguably yes, but on reflection, the structure is solid in this ongoing story.

The disappointment is largely that we expected to get answers in Bailu and the fact that we didn’t left us all frustrated. But on reflection, it kind of makes sense that they are holding back on answers because it maybe isn‘t time for those answers.

As frustrating as it is for us who have waited so long and are terrified we may not get to the end.

But story woes, localisation woes and writing woes aside, the general structure is pretty much how it had to go. Ryo is still consumed by vengeance and still failing to see the bigger picture around him. Xiuying was right about him. He only has two of the WUDE. I think this series will inevitably end with Ryo truly learning and more importantly earning all of the WUDE, he may have learned about the WUDE but he hasn’t earned the WUDE, and I think he will eventually get the bigger picture. But I think it won’t happen until we actually get some concrete evidence on what the mirrors actually do.

And I think that is what III sets up come the end. It’s leading into IV. Bailu gave us another clue that being the Cliff Temple. The mirrors are now in the enemies hands on the way to a place where they will come finally come into play and actually maybe give a solid concrete answer as to what they do opposed to just hear say and conjecture.

This is not me saying III is flawless. Far from it. I think III could have developed Iwao a little better. I would have loved to find out more about his formative years in Bailu. Not necessarily answers but more to develop he and Lan Di’s fathers relationship.

I understand the frustration of III’s story telling and how it could have been done better. But the general structure is the way it inevitably needed to go. Bailu gave us the history of the mirrors. It gave us another vital clue being the Cliff Temple. Sure, we expected answers in Bailu, but reflecting on it. I don’t think it was time for answers. I think IV is the place we will start to get answers. And if not, then i will truly question what the hell Suzuki is doing?

 

[Vasid]

Right I'm saying this again. No one has said anyone is a fake fan.

There's an exchange of views. That's all this is. Whether you agree with that view is up to you but throwing around the fake fan word because it's a disagreement isn't on.

Also let me make this clear. Anyone calling anyone else a fake fan, on any side of the discussion, will receive a 24 hour ban.

So Suzaku didn't call anyone fake fans when they said this?:

Yeah Shenmue was a divisive game since the beginning.
Previously I said that Shenmue 3 also worked as a purge for fake fans.

Well reading on various forums I noticed that some of the so called fans complained about 3 for the same reasons people in 1999 complained for Shenmue 1, just like if Shenmue 3 was their first game in the series ("it's boring, why I have to talk to NPCs, why I have to work" etc.).

I find it really strange,
I still don't know what happened in some people mind during these 20 years, but I think it's safe to assume that some fans in 1999 were just fans of the graphics and liked the characters and story and nothing more. Your average Final Fantasy fan.
They probably never grasped the essence that made shenmue unique.
Now imagine how distorted this superficial love can become after 20 years... ("I wasted my life")

It just took one game with less "production values" to trasform fans in super-haters...

Or is that because they didn't say "x user is a fake fan" so that makes it okay? Honestly the "fake fan" claims are pretty pathetic. It's basic level gatekeeping and it reminds me of angsty incel nerds who think girls aren't real gamers and feel the need to quiz them on obscure gamer culture.

If someone waited 20 years for Shenmue III excited and likely played I and II multiple times then they're not a fake fan. If someone loves Shenmue I and II but dislikes Shenmue III they're not a fake fan. Being a fan of something isn't some qualified thing you need to take a purity test for and it sure as hell isn't something you need to blindly love every game in the series for.