SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

very sad, I was right before about you being an hyprocrite, you act cool and mature and then hit the ignore button when someone disagree with you...
That's the kind of childish behaviour that hurts the community.
I'm now in a position when I cannot even reply to you since you ignored me.

But since I have respect for other people, I can tell you that I still read your post, and you couldn't be more wrong.
No, I just don't see the point in debating someone who isn't listening to me, you know, like you're doing now. And ignoring someone you disagree with doesn't hurt anything, it's good etiquette to ensure forums don't get filled with petty bickering. That's why the function was put there in the first place. Also if you want to talk about childish behavior let's talk about crying on an internet forum for days about a video you don't like but haven't even watched just because the title triggered you.

Yeesh. Anyway, back to ignoring you because I can see this is going nowhere fast. Cheers, enjoy your last word.

Edit: Also LOL at "I still read your post, and you couldn't be more wrong but I can't tell you why that is". Well I guess case closed you win and the video is clickbait now. How wrong I was.
 
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Vasid, it's 3 times that you edit your post to add more poison, please continue to ignore me and move on if you can, I'm not falling for your bait.
Can't waste time on hypocrites that don't know the word "respect".
 
I still disagree; I'm not watching a review to get an impartial summary of the game, especially not a 40+ minute review that spoils the whole game. Most of these are "reviews" in name only anyway; the Plinkett reviews and Lindsay Ellis' review of Game of Thrones Season 8 are damn near documentaries.
Well I suppose we are very different in this regard then, but I would argue that anybody who is happy for a critic to say whatever they like about a game or movie (regardless of whether or not it is true) simply wants to validate their own preconceptions about the media rather than be given the tools needed to make their own judgement. In that sense, I think you're right that it is no longer being consumed as a review and is instead serving as either a puff or take-down piece (depending on which way the author is leaning).
I guess that's fair, I didn't really view it as him misrepresenting the game since everything he talks about is in the game, just to varying degrees of severity.
To that end, could I not say that 90% of Shenmue 1 was spent asking about sailors and driving around in a forklift and still have it be considered a good take on the game? Could I show clips from the fly episode of Breaking Bad and portray it as an eight season series about two men trying to catch a fly? Those things are present in their respective works, but to overstate their prevalence in such a way wouldn't give my audience an accurate representation.
Well that's just it isn't it? The game "encourages" interaction with Shenhua by forcing the player to return home early. In S1, it's a choice whether you return home early and the game reacts accordingly. I love things that exist in Shenmue for their own sake, like thanking the four wude masters in S2, I think it adds a lot but it's also a choice. S3 doesn't offer much in the way of meaningful choices.
I believe that Shenmue 3 is still a game laden with choices, but where those choices perhaps fall short is that most of them lack any real meaning. That said, I think it could quite easily be argued that many of the choices found in the original game are guilty of the same crime as ultimately the player ends up at the same conclusion regardless of the choices they make during their playthrough.
He did? That's surprising. I must've missed that. If that's the case then he should have at least mentioned that the dialogue skip was patched in.
You actually had me doubting myself for a second there to the point where I had to go back and check, but yes; he completed the game twice. He mentions it at 1:52 in the video (thank the lord for the 'transcript' function on YouTube, as I don't think I could have brought myself to sit through the video a second time and would probably have just agreed with you to save myself the hassle).
They help keep the player oriented but that's only needed because, as SEPW points out, the scenario is so absurd. Most games don't write themselves into corners where the only option is to set up invisible walls that leave the player scratching their head. Ryo needs to find Shenhua's missing father; there is urgency to that scenario that is completely at odds with Ryo casually strolling around a small part of the town refusing to go past a certain point until he talks to random locals.
As you point out, Mr Yuan is missing and Ryo is in a town that he has never visited before (and thus, doesn't know his way around). Where exactly should Ryo be going if not the town's busiest area? It is the place where most of the town congregate and thus the place where he is most likely to find the answers that he needs. Surely wandering off into the pumpkin patch rather than asking people in the town square would be far more at odds with that sense of urgency?

Again though, this is something we see in not only the original Shenmue games, but pretty much all open world games -whether modern or old. Ryo doesn't leave the village square until he has the answers that he needs in much the same way that he stays in the Aberdeen area until he has recovered his bag.

Yu and the team could have allowed the player to ask around in other areas of Bailu, but it would have served as a massive waste of the player's time (something that the game has been heavily criticized for in other areas).

The things that break up the flow are definitely, as you say, training and eating but also the fact that such a simple objective (go beat up some thugs in a small village) gets stretched out with a bunch of busywork. So it doesn't feel like progress, it feels like you're being held back. In S2, all the things that serve to stretch out the story are interesting, we learn about the four wude, the Chawan sign, the Wulinshu, and meet the Ren, Joy and Wong all while the objective is "Find Lishao Tao".
... just as we find out about the history of the mirrors, Lan Di's background and Iwao's travels through China all while the objective is "Find Yuan" (technically). Shenmue 3's story beats are punctuated with just as many informative data drops as the previous entries and I think on face value they are every bit as interesting and meaningful to the story. Where they arguably fal short is in their depth and the manner in which this information is given to the player, but I don't think that I ever felt like it was busy work nor did I ever feel as though the story wasn't progressing (to be clear here, I mean the 'story' of Shenmue 3 rather than the series' overarching plot)
That's true but I don't see him saying whatever he wants about the game. He doesn't outright make shit up. He exaggerates a little and maybe makes a few things seem worse than they are to make a point. But then again maybe he really hated that shoe cutscene, who knows?
Again said:
yeah this happens
11:36
every single morning you cannot skip it
11:40
and it does not change
Let's break down those three lines...
"This happens every single morning" - this is false. There are at least three days that I can recall where Shenhua does not say anything to Ryo as he leaves the house (either because she is leaving with him or has already left). I haven't played Shenmue 3 in 6 months+ so there may very well be more.
"You cannot skip it" - this is false. The ability to skip dialogue and cutscenes has been in the game since January.
"It does not change" - this is false. There are different variations of this scene and, unlike the 'wake-up' scene, they are not dependent on conversing with Shenhua.

These are not exaggerations.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that I really like Phantom Menace and I say "well, I timed the fight in Episode 1 and Empire Strikes Back and Episode 1 is maybe 2 minutes longer therefore Plinkett is lying about Episode 1". It's like, no, he's not lying, he's taking that instance and combining it with all the other problems (following too many characters, jarring tonal shifts, weird logic leaps) to come to the conclusion that the ending doesn't work, not just that the fight is too long. Plus there's the fact that Empire has the "I am your father" line and is an amazing movie leading up to that point..
As I said in my last post, it's impossible for a subjective opinion to be called out as a lie because there is no right answer. Plinkett and I may have different ideas as to what constitutes 'too long' and I might disagree with his definition, but his opinion can't be wrong if he truly believes it. If Plinkett tries to argue that the fight scene is 45 minutes long on the other hand, I can time it and tell him with some surety that he is wrong in much the same way that I can post this link and say that SEPW is wrong when he states that the cutscene does not change.
I don't think that's a fair assessment. It's true that he advises his viewers not to play the game, but he never claims "just watch this video instead of playing the game, it's the same difference really". To me, it's no different than the take downs of Batman v Superman, Game of Thrones Season 8, or the Star Wars Prequels (and sequels); he's not obligated to be fair and balanced (and, in fact, SEPW is far more respectful than those other reviews, compare the way he treats Suzuki to the way Plinkett treats Lucas, or most people treat the writers of Game of Thrones).

I don't like S3, this review echoes my feelings pretty closely, but I'm willing to grant Suzuki the benefit of the doubt that these are growing pains; but he's not entitled to that benefit of the doubt.
It all comes back to that reasonable expectation that the things being said in a review are true. SEPW doesn't implicitly tell his viewers that everything they're seeing and being told is an accurate representation of the game because the assumption is that that is the case by virtue of it being a review.

I think the biggest problem here is the medium that he chooses to share his thoughts on the game and the impact that that medium has on his narrative. This may be a bit of a generalization (and there are obviously exceptions), but I think that we have been conditioned to associate reading with being informed and watching with being entertained. The primary purpose of a review is to inform and so by making a video he is expected to both inform and entertain - but these two things are often at odds with one another.

"Most mornings, you'll need to watch or skip a cutscene with Shenhua saying goodbye to Ryo and there is very little variation in these scenes." is a lot less entertaining than "This happens every single morning. You cannot skip it and it doesn't change (I swear these are different recordings)" and so the reviewer is faced with the choice of either compromising the accuracy or the entertainment factor of his review. Analytics show that his negative Shenmue video is overwhelmingly more successful than his impartial one, so he likely knows that the more negative he is, the more viewers he stands to gain and this in turn effectively makes that earlier choice for him. His audience, who seemingly care more about being entertained than they do about being informed, make it for him.

I understand that he doesn't like the game, why he doesn't like the game and why he put this video together in the way that he did, but I also think that by misrepresenting the game and misleading his audience (both through implication and in some cases, lies), he has failed to make a good review. I also think that at some point he made a conscious choice to aim to make a good video rather than a good review. In that sense, I think most would agree that he succeeded (although as funny as it was in places, there is something about the way that this guy emotes that I really can't stand).
 
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Again: people jumping in to the thread just to say they won't be watching the video are really not helping the discussion. If you don't want to watch the video then don't comment in a thread about it, don't give it your attention, just move on. But go ahead Karen tell us how you are above watching the video and you know it's trash.
If I'm the "Karen", why are you the one telling people off like you're their Mummy? :unsure:

I'd never say a video's trash without watching it first, and I certainly don't think watching it's "below me" -- I mainly wanted to post a light-hearted joke about garlic. But now I have watched the video, do I have your permission to post?! Oh pwitty pweez :crying:

SEPW replayed Shenmue recently and found it boring, tedious, had basically no patience for it and nothing positive to say. So for those of us who watched that first video, this one shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

However, in general I think it's a fair video with genuine criticisms, even if the issues outlined didn't have the same negative impact on my own experience. The more "nitpicky" stuff in the first half didn't bother me in the same way.

He presents some of these issues as persistent or worse than they really are, like the fade-to-black during conversations, and making it seem like you have to use a fortune teller and gamble on FBWM to make money efficiently, which isn't true, and not something I did at all. But still, a fair video in general, that clearly comes from someone who, at the very least, used to like Shenmue.

Honestly, they're all criticisms we've covered a thousand times over on here, packaged into a fairly well-made video with an unfortunate, clickbaity title. I agree with a lot of it, and disagree with some of it also. See: the last 8 months of posts on this forum.
 
This thread has already gotten away from me and you've raised a lot of good points in your subsequent posts so I'll try and summarize my thoughts on those.

I don't think the video was put together in an intentionally misleading way. I really do believe that SEPW was a fan of Shenmue who was disappointed in S3. However, I will concede you made a number of good points in your later posts giving some examples of where he exaggerates or uses the worst possible examples to make his point. I did mentioned in my first post on this thread that I thought many of his points were nitpicky.

There may be those who are willing to defend all criticism but I've been critical of bad faith takes on Shenmue in the past having called out Jim Sterling or Yahtzee on their views. Aside from his previous video, he begins this video actually extolling the positives of the game. He also doesn't speak badly of either the fanbase or Suzuki throughout the video. At the end his tone genuinely felt to me like he was more saddened and disappointed with how the game turned out than vindictive of it. He even admitted playing the game twice which means he probably wanted to let cooler heads prevail than give his thoughts on his first impression or rush out to get clicks based on any hype following the release.

Don't get me wrong, just because I am defending the video does not mean I fully agree with all his points or conclusions. For example, the combat didn't bother me as much as it did him but I will still concede there are issues with it and that he raised several good points.

To be fair so have you regarding his video. You've fostered good discussion and raised good criticisms against SEPW. You're fully willing to acknowledge the faults, even if they don't personally bother you much, and you've been reasonable in looking at criticism. My concern is not with people like you but those who refuse to engage with criticism out of some unfounded fear that it will hurt Shenmue or their image of it.

You have made several good posts supporting what I've been trying to say. Ignoring the criticism and banding together to defend everything about Shenmue in blind apologetics is counterproductive and makes the whole community look bad.
No worries. It feels like there are ten separate discussions going on within this thread alone, so it’s very easy for posts to get buried between visits.

I don’t think there are many people claiming that he wasn’t a fan of the series and agree with you that his feelings of anger and disappointment towards the game come across as being genuine.

I take absolutely no issue with people defending the video in that regard as I’m aware that there are plenty of people here who harbor similar feelings and, even if there weren’t, we’re discussing something that’s quality is entirely subjective (both in terms of the game and the review itself).

Ignoring my issues with the way he presents his criticisms for a moment, my annoyance with people jumping to defend the video stems from their willingness to dismiss any criticism of the video offhand and the suggestion that any attempt to question the points made in it is an attempt to suppress the negativity surrounding the game.

I think the Dojo staff have done a fantastic job of allowing constructive discussion around Shenmue 3 and have repeatedly stated that the negative criticism is incredibly important in ensuring that if the series continues, it doesn’t make the same mistakes twice.

That said, I think that giving critics carte-blanche on the basis that we know the game to be flawed could prove to be just as damaging to the series as sticking our fingers in our ears and refusing to acknowledge the game’s shortcomings.

A quick scan of the YouTube comments section shows that there are plenty of commenters who had planned to play Shenmue 3 but will now avoid doing so after watching the video - and it’s entirely possible that some of those people might have made that decision based entirely on the misleading elements of the video (or at the very least, these may have served as the proverbial tipping point).

I think that’s unfortunate - and whilst there’s nothing we can do about that as a community - if any of those viewers were to come here to find out if the video really gives an accurate representation of the game, I think that a reasoned discussion about how the video raises a lot of valid points whilst sometimes embellishing and overemphasizing certain criticisms is a lot more productive than a bunch of posters saying ‘Yeah. I feel the same. This is an honest review.’.

I do appreciate that there are a handful of posters on the other side of the fence who keep trying to argue that Shenmue is an ‘objectively good‘ game and throwing childish names around (both towards SEPW and other forum users) and I take just as much issue with these people as I do with those trying to shut down criticism of the video itself (in terms of their potential to damage the perception of the series).
 
No worries. It feels like there are ten separate discussions going on within this thread alone, so it’s very easy for posts to get buried between visits.

I don’t think there are many people claiming that he wasn’t a fan of the series and agree with you that his feelings of anger and disappointment towards the game come across as being genuine.

I take absolutely no issue with people defending the video in that regard as I’m aware that there are plenty of people here who harbor similar feelings and, even if there weren’t, we’re discussing something that’s quality is entirely subjective (both in terms of the game and the review itself).

Ignoring my issues with the way he presents his criticisms for a moment, my annoyance with people jumping to defend the video stems from their willingness to dismiss any criticism of the video offhand and the suggestion that any attempt to question the points made in it is an attempt to suppress the negativity surrounding the game.

I think the Dojo staff have done a fantastic job of allowing constructive discussion around Shenmue 3 and have repeatedly stated that the negative criticism is incredibly important in ensuring that if the series continues, it doesn’t make the same mistakes twice.

That said, I think that giving critics carte-blanche on the basis that we know the game to be flawed could prove to be just as damaging to the series as sticking our fingers in our ears and refusing to acknowledge the game’s shortcomings.

A quick scan of the YouTube comments section shows that there are plenty of commenters who had planned to play Shenmue 3 but will now avoid doing so after watching the video - and it’s entirely possible that some of those people might have made that decision based entirely on the misleading elements of the video (or at the very least, these may have served as the proverbial tipping point).

I think that’s unfortunate - and whilst there’s nothing we can do about that as a community - if any of those viewers were to come here to find out if the video really gives an accurate representation of the game, I think that a reasoned discussion about how the video raises a lot of valid points whilst sometimes embellishing and overemphasizing certain criticisms is a lot more productive than a bunch of posters saying ‘Yeah. I feel the same. This is an honest review.’.

I do appreciate that there are a handful of posters on the other side of the fence who keep trying to argue that Shenmue is an ‘objectively good‘ game and throwing childish names around (both towards SEPW and other forum users) and I take just as much issue with these people as I do with those trying to shut down criticism of the video itself (in terms of their potential to damage the perception of the series).



I understand where you're coming from. Yes, it's never good to see your favorite serie being piled and summed up by its shortcomings. But the issue also comes from the fact that those shortcomings exists in the first place.
 
I understand where you're coming from. Yes, it's never good to see your favorite serie being piled and summed up by its shortcomings. But the issue also comes from the fact that those shortcomings exists in the first place.
People have been dunking on Shenmue for 20 years and I can’t say that it’s ever really bothered me. It’s clearly not a game for everyone and I actually find a lot of the videos making fun of it to be pretty damn funny.

My concern comes from the need for Shenmue 3 to be as financially successful as possible and Yu’s promise to continue working on the series as long as there is a clear desire to see the series continue from the fan base.

Videos like this hurt sales and a bunch of fans saying ‘Yep. That video that says ‘Shenmue 3 is terrible and the series should just die already’ is completely honest and I agree with all of the criticisms in it.’ would likely weaken Yu’s determination to see the series through were the comments ever to be brought to his attention.

I can’t stop SEPW or those fans from feeling the way that they do, but I can show anybody reading that the video itself isn’t as black and white as it seems and that there are still fans who want to see the continuation of the series.
 
People have been dunking on Shenmue for 20 years and I can’t say that it’s ever really bothered me. It’s clearly not a game for everyone and I actually find a lot of the videos making fun of it to be pretty damn funny.

My concern comes from the need for Shenmue 3 to be as financially successful as possible and Yu’s promise to continue working on the series as long as there is a clear desire to see the series continue from the fan base.

Videos like this hurt sales and a bunch of fans saying ‘Yep. That video that says ‘Shenmue 3 is terrible and the series should just die already’ is completely honest and I agree with all of the criticisms in it.’ would likely weaken Yu’s determination to see the series through were the comments ever to be brought to his attention.

I can’t stop SEPW or those fans from feeling the way that they do, but I can show anybody reading that the video itself isn’t as black and white as it seems and that there are still fans who want to see the continuation of the series.


It's a legitimate concern but then again, it was the job of all the parties involved to ensure the game is a success. There are games which got a fair share of criticism but managed to deliver. I dont feel like the fans dropped the ball here. The publisher and developper did. If they wanted to generate positive word of mouth, they had to work toward that.
 
It's a legitimate concern but then again, it was the job of all the parties involved to ensure the game is a success. There are games which got a fair share of criticism but managed to deliver. I dont feel like the fans dropped the ball here. The publisher and developper did. If they wanted to generate positive word of mouth, they had to work toward that.
I’m not suggesting that the fan base dropped the ball in any way (although I do wonder whether perhaps some had set their expectations a little too highly) and agree entirely that mistakes were made by both the developer and the publisher (although without knowing everything that went on behind the scenes, it’s difficult to pinpoint exactly what all of these mistakes were with any level of surety). Ultimately though, for whatever reason, these mistakes were made and no amount of discussion or criticism can change them.

In an ideal world the game would have been a critical hit and we wouldn’t be once again left wondering whether or not we’d ever see the conclusion of the series, but that’s where we are and pointing out that mistakes were made isn’t going to change that.

With this in mind, I think that maintaining a positive outlook and acknowledging the things that the game did right whilst offering suggestions on how the things that it got wrong could be improved moving forwards could help in some small way. I’m aware that in all likelihood it won’t make a difference, but I would rather do something than nothing.

Anyway. I think we’re starting to pull this thread a little off topic, so if you’d like to continue this line of discussion feel free to PM me or start a new topic. I do feel like the conversation is heading towards ground that’s been covered many times before though.
 
A quick scan of the YouTube comments section shows that there are plenty of commenters who had planned to play Shenmue 3 but will now avoid doing so after watching the video...
...or so they'd like people to believe. I'm sure that's true for some, but don't underestimate the amount of people who say this type of thing when they actually had zero intention of playing it in the first place. People love any excuse to cross a game off their list, especially if they can do it in the comments of one of their fave YouTubers. They're basically patting themselves on the back for not "wasting their time".

Also, where did the "18k copies in the first week" come from? It sounds plausible given they pre-sold ~70k copies but I can't recall the source.
 
...or so they'd like people to believe. I'm sure that's true for some, but don't underestimate the amount of people who say this type of thing when they actually had zero intention of playing it in the first place. People love any excuse to cross a game off their list, especially if they can do it in the comments of one of their fave YouTubers. They're basically patting themselves on the back for not "wasting their time".
Oh, I’ve no doubt that some people are saying this for dramatic effect and would likely have never played the game regardless of whether this video painted the game as good or bad, but I’m sure that there are some whose comments are genuine. I have a huge backlog of games to get through and if I saw a video like this about one of them, I’d probably scratch the game off my list.

Also, where did the "18k copies in the first week" come from? It sounds plausible given they pre-sold ~70k copies but I can't recall the source.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to here, but the game sold just shy of eighteen thousand copies during its launch week here in Japan (according to Dengeki).
 
This video is literally in every one of my friends recommended videos :pensive:

Yeah this video became one of those "recommended to every person interested in video games" videos. For shame.

Over 600k views now. And all of those people agree. Shenmue IV might never happen because people hate the series now more than ever.
 
@tomboz and @orient

Heres the 1st week JP sales mentioned. Ignore the article title as such but it gives numbers: https://www.vg247.com/2019/11/28/shenmue-iii-sales-disappoint-japan-uk/
I hadn’t actually seen the ending to the video as I had assumed that he finished with his fan-fiction section and just switched off there, but it’s hard not to feel a little sorry for the guy listening to the way that he talks about the game. I don’t agree with him on many of the thoughts he shares here, but he was clearly hurt by the way the game turned out.

That said, I also notice that he conveniently neglected to mention that the ‘less than 18,000’ week one sales were exclusive to Japan and not worldwide sales and that he erroneously states that Deep Silver has publicly expressed their disappointment with sales figures.

For somebody who has in the past shown himself to be meticulous in his research when putting together his videos, it seems a little suspect that he just happens to have dropped the ball here - especially as the game performing poorly would back up his view that the series has no future moving forwards.
 
I hadn’t actually seen the ending to the video as I had assumed that he finished with his fan-fiction section and just switched off there, but it’s hard not to feel a little sorry for the guy listening to the way that he talks about the game. I don’t agree with him on many of the thoughts he shares here, but he was clearly hurt by the way the game turned out.

That said, I also notice that he conveniently neglected to mention that the ‘less than 18,000’ week one sales were exclusive to Japan and not worldwide sales and that he erroneously states that Deep Silver has publicly expressed their disappointment with sales figures.

For somebody who has in the past shown himself to be meticulous in his research when putting together his videos, it seems a little suspect that he just happens to have dropped the ball here - especially as the game performing poorly would back up his view that the series has no future moving forwards.
It's unfortunate given that there's plenty of media out there stating Embracer's "financially fine" comment. But then I suppose it comes down to the fanbase ensuring that the facts are out there.
 
It's unfortunate given that there's plenty of media out there stating Embracer's "financially fine" comment. But then I suppose it comes down to the fanbase ensuring that the facts are out there.
The Deep Silver thing is in some ways excusable as there are plenty of articles out there that jumped on that report and ran with it, although a little bit of digging would have shown him that those articles were inaccurate and he would have no doubt happened upon the actual comments from Embracer in the process.

The sales figures make no sense though.

Every article I’ve seen makes it very clear that those sales figures only cover Japan, as do the game’s Wikipedia page and the google answer for ‘How many copies did Shenmue 3 sell?’. I really don’t see how anybody could make this mistake without trying to.

As a bit of an aside, are there really people out there who have never heard of Astral Chain and Code Vein? Both have shifted over a million copies and Astral Chain is pushing a 90 on Metacritic. I think SEPW perhaps doesn’t realize that Shenmue is something of a niche series nowadays.
 
As a bit of an aside, are there really people out there who have never heard of Astral Chain and Code Vein
Why is it weird to believe? For example I only heard abou Code Vein because I follow E3 videos and such, seemed generic and never saw anything ever again after that presentation.
 
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