Response To SuperEyePatchWolf Shenmue 3 Review

[mjqjazzbar]

You can infer whatever you want based on your own encyclopedic knowledge of Shenmue and insist people didn't play it right, but most people didn't get that out of the game and it reflects on the writing, not the audience. Nothing in the game suggests to me the writers meant the story to be ambiguous or that these vague omissions were stylistic choices. This isn't a Dostoyevsky novel or Tarkovsky film; it's a video game with a bad script. I really don't think "close reading" and multiple replays are necessary to figure this game's story out.

 

[Suzaku]

It's not that i have some kind of encyclopedic knowledge, on the contrary these things are pretty elementary, Instead I think some people really lack even basic understanding of visual/narrative media, being it movie or videogame.
Shenmue always used this kind of subtle storytelling, it's not a S3 thing only, and it's not doing it in a complicated or hermetic way.

Still you can't blame writers if people are too lazy to even trying to understand what they are seeing on the screen.
The "bad writers" card are becoming redundant, there are also "bad gamers".

 

[xatruio]

You can infer whatever you want based on your own encyclopedic knowledge of Shenmue and insist people didn't play it right, but most people didn't get that out of the game and it reflects on the writing, not the audience. Nothing in the game suggests to me the writers meant the story to be ambiguous or that these vague omissions were stylistic choices. This isn't a Dostoyevsky novel or Tarkovsky film; it's a video game with a bad script. I really don't think "close reading" and multiple replays are necessary to figure this game's story out.

On the contrary, to fully appreciate any work, at least two viewings/reads/plays are required because the first will always miss plenty of details big or small.

 

[WuyingRen]

the fact that Niao Sun wore a disguise already tells us a lot about the character.
If people paid attention to dialogues instead of skipping...all informations were given by the game.

She's a cruel leader that use any kind of tricks to reach her goals, and can easily deceive people by appearing as a calm and relaxed woman (the lady in disguise), while she's just the opposite in reality, with a even a degree of madness (the real Niao Sun at the castle).
Also the disguise not only serve to deceive Ryo, but also to hide her identity to everyone else when roaming the city, since it seems she really own the town.

That's not imagination, it's actually paying attention to the story.
People nowadays are becoming more and more unaccustomed to the kind of subtle/indirect storytelling that Shenmue use, and just want all the action and explanations thrown at their faces, otherwise "nothing happened".

I think the issue is that there’s no obvious reason for Niao-Sun’s deception.

Yes; wearing the disguise allows her to walk around Niaowu without the locals recognizing her, but why exactly does she need to interact with Ryo and Shenhua?

She doesn’t seem to gain any useful information from either of them in the early stages (nor does she provide them with any information that they could not easily come by on their own) and although she does tell Ryo about Shenhua being taken, it’s not until he gets the note at the hotel that he knows where and why.

You could quite literally remove the Feng Li character from the game and the story would play out in exactly the same way.

You say that she uses tricks to achieve her goals, but how exactly? By wearing a disguise, she doesn’t trick Ryo or Shenhua into giving her information about the mirror nor does she trick Shenhua into going to the castle with her willingly (either of which would have served as a worthwhile payoff).

Sure; you can choose to infer that she does these things, but on what basis? If we saw her and Shenhua hanging out in Niaowu from time to time or Shenhua happened to mention their friendship here and there then I think it would be a fair assumption, but as that doesn’t happen I think the most logical assumption is that she dresses up as Feng Li so that she can keep an eye on Shenhua. Considering she owns the town and probably has countless underlings who could do this for her, this seems a little pointless to me.

Ultimately, she uses force to get what she wants just like every other generic bad guy in everything ever. The only difference is that she likes to do a bit of normy cosplay from time to time.

To be fair, I do like how she bode her time when it came to kidnapping Shenhua in order to get Ryo to the castle when she did (and thus using Ryo’s desire for revenge to distract Lan Di while she torched the place), but again, the Feng Li angle didn’t really help her in this endeavor.

All I got from Shenmue 3 is that she is a good strategist and pretty ruthless to boot.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I have no idea what this means.

The hobo in the pier has more character intricacies than anyone in the entirety of Shenmue 3. Or the old man under the tree in Shenmue 2, who you can train with. Both of these are passing characters in these two games, where the characters in S3 who are supposed to be important in the history of Shenmue have basically nothing going for them.

No to pile on, but how do you not know their names? Everyone who's on this site, especially those who claim to be big fans of the series, should know important character names.

If this is indicative of how you pick up on things from the series, then it isn't a surprise that @Revan pointing all these things out, went completely over your head.

You do not have to "get up on stage and give full disclosure;" that's hand-holding story-telling/narrative. While you specifically may appreciate that, I too like the subtle, more vague storytelling that 'mue III has; as @Rydeen said, it makes you think critically (which isn't the same as being a critic or critiquing).

The fact that the plot of this game left many open doors, but challenges you to open your mind and make connections/inferences on your own, is something that many people didn't like/appreciate.

But that doesn't make it objectively bad, like you are continually posting (bad script and bad story are 2 different things); you dislike this game to death, we know that. Stop being like @GhostTrick and needing to put your 2 cents into everything and refuting anyone who indeed enjoys this game.

It takes a shit-ton more effort and energy to hate something and make it known, than to accept, move on and hope for better in the future (which we'll get).

EDIT* Oh, pipe down, @ValoniMahoni; I didn't say anything THAT bad...

 

[Suzaku]

I think the issue is that there’s no obvious reason for Niao-Sun’s deception.

Yes; wearing the disguise allows her to walk around Niaowu without the locals recognizing her, but why exactly does she need to interact with Ryo and Shenhua?

She doesn’t seem to gain any useful information from either of them in the early stages (nor does she provide them with any information that they could not easily come by on their own) and although she does tell Ryo about Shenhua being taken, it’s not until he gets the note at the hotel that he knows where and why.

You could quite literally remove the Feng Li character from the game and the story would play out in exactly the same way.

You say that she uses tricks to achieve her goals, but how exactly? By wearing a disguise, she doesn’t trick Ryo or Shenhua into giving her information about the mirror nor does she trick Shenhua into going to the castle willingly.

Ultimately, she uses force to get what she wants just like every other generic bad guy in everything ever. The only difference is that she likes to do a bit of normy cosplay from time to time.

The game implies that Niao Sun was already on Ryo's tail since the beginning of Niaowu (if not earlier, but that would be a speculation), and the fact that she is on the same boat of Ryo is not coincidence (remember, she control the town).
Why she need to interact with Ryo? Because Ryo had the phoenix mirror and he is searching for Lan Di (her primarly objective).

She could use the force to take the phoenix mirror, instead she subtle tricked shenhua to follow her (remember that "come with me, Ryo is in danger", they weren't going on a nice trip on the castle lol) to bait Ryo to the castle where her plot can be set in motion.
Ryo is her card to take over the Chi You Men, you average villain would simply go to kill Lan Di 1 on 1 instead of all this roundabout.

If you remove Li Feng from the game, you lose all the glimps of the "behind the scene" and build up of Niao Sun character.

 

[WuyingRen]

(remember that "come with me, Ryo is in danger")

I actually had no recollection of this scene for some bizarre reason and actually had to go back and check YouTube to see what you were talking about.

This does redeem the Feng Li plot line a little in my eyes, although I still think it needed a lot more development to truly work.

 

[Rydeen]

I think the issue is that there’s no obvious reason for Niao-Sun’s deception.

Yes; wearing the disguise allows her to walk around Niaowu without the locals recognizing her, but why exactly does she need to interact with Ryo and Shenhua?

She doesn’t seem to gain any useful information from either of them in the early stages (nor does she provide them with any information that they could not easily come by on their own) and although she does tell Ryo about Shenhua being taken, it’s not until he gets the note at the hotel that he knows where and why.

You could quite literally remove the Feng Li character from the game and the story would play out in exactly the same way.

You say that she uses tricks to achieve her goals, but how exactly? By wearing a disguise, she doesn’t trick Ryo or Shenhua into giving her information about the mirror nor does she trick Shenhua into going to the castle with her willingly (either of which would have served as a worthwhile payoff).

Sure; you can choose to infer that she does these things, but on what basis? If we saw her and Shenhua hanging out in Niaowu from time to time or Shenhua happened to mention their friendship here and there then I think it would be a fair assumption, but as that doesn’t happen I think the most logical assumption is that she dresses up as Feng Li so that she can keep an eye on Shenhua. Considering she owns the town and probably has countless underlings who could do this for her, this seems a little pointless to me.

Ultimately, she uses force to get what she wants just like every other generic bad guy in everything ever. The only difference is that she likes to do a bit of normy cosplay from time to time.

To be fair, I do like how she bode her time when it came to kidnapping Shenhua in order to get Ryo to the castle when she did (and thus using Ryo’s desire for revenge to distract Lan Di while she torched the place), but again, the Feng Li angle didn’t really help her in this endeavor.

All I got from Shenmue 3 is that she is a good strategist and pretty ruthless to boot.

To kind of build on what Suzaku is saying, we don't really know where Niao Sun was exactly, when we're in Bailu, but since she was on the boat to NIaowu, I think we can assume that she was somewhere close to Languishan. (We might have actually seen some of this in the boat chapter if it hadn't been deemed too light on gameplay, considering the developer interview Switch did.) I don't recall whether or not Chai actually knows that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror or not (I feel like he doesn't), but if we believe Niao Sun is actually not too far off, I think we can assume that Chai would report back to her about Ryo, how meddlesome he can be, and that Shenhua is the daughter of Yuan (maybe it's a stretch that he would actually piece that together, though).

At that point, Ryo and Shenhua would become a mark for her. I felt, especially after talking with her outside of the scripted cutscenes, that Niao Sun was really intently observing the two. At some point she has to know that Ryo actually has the mirror, though. That's not really clear at all within the plot, but I'm willing to believe she's at least cunning enough to find that out (maybe from Shenhua).

I think there are two really interesting things about Niao Sun's character that come out of this really circuitous nature to her behavior:
1) We can get a sense that she enjoys making people dance in her web of deceit.
2) She's able to manipulate and deceive even Shenhua. (Admittedly, I have some issues with this, just because of how prescient Shenhua is in every other moment of the series.)

Shenhua does mention running into Li Feng to Ryo, when they're talking on the balcony at the hotel. I don't think Niao Sun was trying to become besties with either Shenhua or Ryo. I think she was just trying to approach them to get information. Information that would help her scheming. I agree that she could have potentially had her subordinates do this, but I think the fact that she didn't implies that sense of enjoyment for her.

 

[WuyingRen]

To kind of build on what Suzaku is saying, we don't really know where Niao Sun was exactly, when we're in Bailu, but since she was on the boat to NIaowu, I think we can assume that she was somewhere close to Languishan. (We might have actually seen some of this in the boat chapter if it hadn't been deemed too light on gameplay, considering the developer interview Switch did.) I don't recall whether or not Chai actually knows that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror or not (I feel like he doesn't), but if we believe Niao Sun is actually not too far off, I think we can assume that Chai would report back to her about Ryo, how meddlesome he can be, and that Shenhua is the daughter of Yuan (maybe it's a stretch that he would actually piece that together, though).

At that point, Ryo and Shenhua would become a mark for her. I felt, especially after talking with her outside of the scripted cutscenes, that Niao Sun was really intently observing the two. At some point she has to know that Ryo actually has the mirror, though. That's not really clear at all within the plot, but I'm willing to believe she's at least cunning enough to find that out (maybe from Shenhua).

I think there are two really interesting things about Niao Sun's character that come out of this really circuitous nature to her behavior:
1) We can get a sense that she enjoys making people dance in her web of deceit.
2) She's able to manipulate and deceive even Shenhua. (Admittedly, I have some issues with this, just because of how prescient Shenhua is in every other moment of the series.)

Shenhua does mention running into Li Feng to Ryo, when they're talking on the balcony at the hotel. I don't think Niao Sun was trying to become besties with either Shenhua or Ryo. I think she was just trying to approach them to get information. Information that would help her scheming. I agree that she could have potentially had her subordinates do this, but I think the fact that she didn't implies that sense of enjoyment for her.

I always had the impression that Niao-Sun knew that Ryo had the mirror from the beginning of the game (either through Chai or Zhu) and was simply hiding her time in terms of taking it.

That she could have taken it by force at any time but chose to wait until she could use Ryo in her plot to take out Lan Di makes her a much more compelling character to me.

I don’t really have a problem with her being able to manipulate Shenhua into going to the castle so easily (if anything, I feel as though Shenhua having never really left Bailu before this would lead to her being incredibly trusting and naive), but I’d have liked to have seen or heard more about her interactions with Shenhua just to help it really land (I can only recall Ryo and Shenhua discussing Feng Li once or twice).

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I always had the impression that Niao-Sun knew that Ryo had the mirror from the beginning of the game (either through Chai or Zhu) and was simply hiding her time in terms of taking it.

That she could have taken it by force at any time but chose to wait until she could use Ryo in her plot to take out Lan Di makes her a much more compelling character to me.

I don’t really have a problem with her being able to manipulate Shenhua into going to the castle so easily (if anything, I feel as though Shenhua having never really left Bailu before this would lead to her being incredibly trusting and naive), but I’d have liked to have seen or heard more about her interactions with Shenhua just to help it really land (I can only recall Ryo and Shenhua discussing Feng Li once or twice).

On that note, I've always had a feeling that we will get a flashback scene or something of that nature, in IV, that will reveal how NS came to know about Ryo.

Just a hunch.

 

[Sonoshee]

Ya know, the more I read responses in this thread, the more convinced I am that Suzuki did a Kubrick on us with 3.
As in, he didn't hold our hands for some of it and let us spin our own interpretations...

 

[GhostTrick]

No to pile on, but how do you not know their names? Everyone who's on this site, especially those who claim to be big fans of the series, should know important character names.

If this is indicative of how you pick up on things from the series, then it isn't a surprise that @Revan pointing all these things out, went completely over your head.

You do not have to "get up on stage and give full disclosure;" that's hand-holding story-telling/narrative. While you specifically may appreciate that, I too like the subtle, more vague storytelling that 'mue III has; as @Rydeen said, it makes you think critically (which isn't the same as being a critic or critiquing).

The fact that the plot of this game left many open doors, but challenges you to open your mind and make connections/inferences on your own, is something that many people didn't like/appreciate.

But that doesn't make it objectively bad, like you are continually posting (bad script and bad story are 2 different things); you dislike this game to death, we know that. Stop being like @GhostTrick and needing to put your 2 cents into everything and refuting anyone who indeed enjoys this game.

It takes a shit-ton more effort and energy to hate something and make it known, than to accept, move on and hope for better in the future (which we'll get).

EDIT* Oh, pipe down, @ValoniMahoni; I didn't say anything THAT bad...

I don't see why you felt compelled to quote me.

As for the rest: We can also disagree with your interpretation that Shenmue 3 lacking characterization or scenes means that "Suzuki is a genius and wanted to tell the story in a very subtle way".
Yes, you can guess character traits based on their action. But it's not a substitute to writing scenes for them. And it doesn't make it a good writing either.

Based on his actions, you can say that Mr Muscle is a fair fighter, because he asked the others to not interupt their fight, that he respects Ryo as a martial artist and that he's a good guy because he let him go.
But in reality ? Well you can barely say anything on that guy, since he has barely any screen time or dialogue.

Why should I give the benefit of the doubt to the game and claim that the lack of story elements is just "subtle writing because Yu Suzuki wants to use your head to connect the dots" ? We're talking about the same game which made that very subtle scene where Niao Sun in that warehouse was doing that not so suspicious look and talk in front of the fire. Totally not evil. And that very subtle scene again in the castle where Ryo connects the dots and realize she was that person.

She's lacking characterisation because she not only lack screen time but also because her scenes are lacking. Yes, you can tell a lot without few words, by setting a mood, by making a scene the right way. The problem is that Shenmue 3 doesn't do that. It's just a lack of and not a "subtle writing or subtle story telling".

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I don't see why you felt compelled to quote me.

'cause you, Thomasina and Knife (@iknifaugood ) are literally the *only* 3 people on this entire board, who have entered every thread you have posted in, writing about your displeasure with the game and how it sucks/is terrible/is amateur/has bad direction/etc./etc./etc./etc.

Thomasina had high hopes and was crushed, so I can kinda see his disappointment, but you've been taking the game to the shed since the Epic announcement and your shtick is getting SOOOOOOOOO tiresome.

Just think of how much constructive time you and your brethren have wasted on here, saying the exact same thing; at the very least, Knife has had some fantastic dialogues back and forth with numerous people, that not once has it devolved into insults, name-calling, pettiness, etc., but yeah, the point stands.

You see a lot more bashing of the game than praise on this site, despite the majority of posters liking the game and enjoying their time with it... but almost all of that bashing (warranted or not) is from the same handful of people.

We get it; you've said your pieces and made your opinions clear. Move the **** on and let's talk about the future of the series or something constructive/worthwhile.

I could never imagine spending so much of my day on the 'net, talking so negatively.

And no more of this off-topic stuff by me; it is exasperating seeing all this negativity; I think I know why Spags isn't coming back anytime soon...

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

On the contrary, to fully appreciate any work, at least two viewings/reads/plays are required because the first will always miss plenty of details big or small.

The problem with this assertion is whether the work is engaging enough to warrant a closer look. If it isn't, then no one is going to care to investigate it further.

 

[GhostTrick]

'cause you, Thomasina and Knife (@iknifaugood ) are literally the *only* 3 people on this entire board, who have entered every thread you have posted in, writing about your displeasure with the game and how it sucks/is terrible/is amateur/has bad direction/etc./etc./etc./etc.

Thomasina had high hopes and was crushed, so I can kinda see his disappointment, but you've been taking the game to the shed since the Epic announcement and your shtick is getting SOOOOOOOOO tiresome.

Just think of how much constructive time you and your brethren have wasted on here, saying the exact same thing; at the very least, Knife has had some fantastic dialogues back and forth with numerous people, that not once has it devolved into insults, name-calling, pettiness, etc., but yeah, the point stands.

You see a lot more bashing of the game than praise on this site, despite the majority of posters liking the game and enjoying their time with it... but almost all of that bashing (warranted or not) is from the same handful of people.

We get it; you've said your pieces and made your opinions clear. Move the **** on and let's talk about the future of the series or something constructive/worthwhile.

I could never imagine spending so much of my day on the 'net, talking so negatively.

And no more of this off-topic stuff by me; it is exasperating seeing all this negativity; I think I know why Spags isn't coming back anytime soon...

"bls stop sayin bad thing on my game ;_;"
You complain about negativity and hostility yet you felt compelled to drag me into your post with hostility. You know why it devolved into insults ? Because of some people's utter fragility and the mob mentality some are entertaining here. The people who don't agree gets a shitload of hostility while the people who agree don't.

So spare me that whole shtick of yours. If I was arguing the opposite thing, you'd be licking my shoes with a shitload of reactions on all of my posts.

Have you seen how this conversation devolved ? One poster said he found a scene not well done and you people are nearly implying he's dumb and just couldn't understand the greatness and subtlety of it.

 

[ValoniMahoni]

No to pile on, but how do you not know their names? Everyone who's on this site, especially those who claim to be big fans of the series, should know important character names.

If this is indicative of how you pick up on things from the series, then it isn't a surprise that @Revan pointing all these things out, went completely over your head.

You do not have to "get up on stage and give full disclosure;" that's hand-holding story-telling/narrative. While you specifically may appreciate that, I too like the subtle, more vague storytelling that 'mue III has; as @Rydeen said, it makes you think critically (which isn't the same as being a critic or critiquing).

The fact that the plot of this game left many open doors, but challenges you to open your mind and make connections/inferences on your own, is something that many people didn't like/appreciate.

But that doesn't make it objectively bad, like you are continually posting (bad script and bad story are 2 different things); you dislike this game to death, we know that. Stop being like @GhostTrick and needing to put your 2 cents into everything and refuting anyone who indeed enjoys this game.

It takes a shit-ton more effort and energy to hate something and make it known, than to accept, move on and hope for better in the future (which we'll get).

EDIT* Oh, pipe down, @ValoniMahoni; I didn't say anything THAT bad...

Whatever man, editing your post just to mention me shows that you are a good person, just as good as Shenmue 3 was.

I dislike your posts because I dont like them.

 

[spud1897]

While I understand the frustration of where this is coming from can we move away from this bickering and insult throwing.

Let's also not forget that the same points have been made on a repeated basis.

Seemingly most users are now moving into the discussions around the chapter cards following the documentary showing. Now you can of course post where you like but why not engage in some of that more interesting discussion around the future story.

May I also add that there's not been a bunch of hostility, yes theres been some from some users but this has been dealt with by the staff team. So let's not exaggerate that either.

So in short I don't care who started it, it ends now.

 

[Revan]

Have you seen how this conversation devolved ? One poster said he found a scene not well done and you people are nearly implying he's dumb and just couldn't understand the greatness and subtlety of it.

Yeah, that's not what happened.

Someone condescended to another user saying they cannot fathom how they could prefer one game over another game, saying Shenmue 3 had nothing of interest to offer and people who like it are probably fans of fishing games (???). That's a bit an inflammatory and exaggerated claim, so I supplied a handy chart to point out some fairly big moments that happen in this game. I was then told I was making stuff up and I had a great imagination (i.e deluded), so I explained myself just as you would.

So please don't try to spin this into me and others bullying someone when in actuality anyone can refer back to past pages and see that this someone was already picking on people's tastes before I stepped in. If you're going to come onto a public forum and make exaggerated statements or accusations, don't be surprised if someone else makes a response defending their position.

While I understand the frustration of where this is coming from can we move away from this bickering and insult throwing.

Let's also not forget that the same points have been made on a repeated basis.

Seemingly most users are now moving into the discussions around the chapter cards following the documentary showing. Now you can of course post where you like but why not engage in some of that more interesting discussion around the future story.

May I also add that there's not been a bunch of hostility, yes theres been some from some users but this has been dealt with by the staff team. So let's not exaggerate that either.

So in short I don't care who started it, it ends now.

Fine by me.

 

[GhostTrick]

Yeah, that's not what happened.

Someone condescended to another user saying they cannot fathom how they could prefer one game over another game, saying Shenmue 3 had nothing of interest to offer and people who like it are probably fans of fishing games (???). That's a bit an inflammatory and exaggerated claim, so I supplied a handy chart to point out some fairly big moments that happen in this game. I was then told I was making stuff up and I had a great imagination (i.e deluded), so I explained myself just as you would.

So please don't try to spin this into me and others bullying someone when in actuality anyone can refer back to past pages and see that this someone was already picking on people's tastes before I stepped in. If you're going to come onto a public forum and make exaggerated statements or accusations, don't be surprised if someone else makes a response defending their position.


Fine by me.

That's not what I was refering to. You were replying to a post that was excessive, claiming the game was all about fishing. So that was fine by me.

 

[iknifaugood]

I don't recall whether or not Chai actually knows that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror or not (I feel like he doesn't)

Shouldn't he though? Considering...

1) We can get a sense that she enjoys making people dance in her web of deceit.

That seems like a bit of a reach based on what we see in S3. She is only shown successfully duping Ryo and Shenhua (not exactly masters of espionage) by dressing up as someone else even though they've never met her.

I always had the impression that Niao-Sun knew that Ryo had the mirror from the beginning of the game (either through Chai or Zhu) and was simply hiding her time in terms of taking it.

If she doesn't know at the beginning, when would she have found out? There definitely seems to be a missing story beat, like she should've seen that Ryo has the mirror as Li Feng. Also, I assume that Lan Di didn't know that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror before the ending but who knows? Technically Chai should've told him in S1 right? Also, Chai is established as working/wanting to work for Lan Di, not Niao Sun, so why would he report to her anyway?