Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[Sput Vas Normandy]

About the flowers I was actually trying to say the grind system (that happened before and happens in all games, there are games that actually are based on that basically). Complaining because there's an expensive bottle of wine it's exactly what I'm trying to say, thank you so much. Thanks so much for making my point about the red circle complaining about... The red circle.

BTW, with toxic and retard community I'm talking in general (AC example), or maybe this is assassinscreeddojo.com and I didnt noticed

Ya know what's toxic?
Toxic it's to turn a interview with good vibes into a "he doesn't want to make SIV because of him" or "that guy ruined the game".

Toxic it's turn a thread which title is "I loved the game" into pages of discussion about why the game is shit and why people who loved it are wrong.

Toxic it's complain because SIII isn't The Witcher 3 or Zelda BOTW, expecting the same results like this would be the same situation than 1999 or 2001.

Toxic it's to avoid all the signs of a S4 and specifically look away at the MONEY GUY (the French one) saying "SIII did good at sales" so some people can say "oh look first week in Japan #14, lol they sell shit, S4 won't happen" (in that case, Idk what the hell is this place, didn't you read the news between 2003-2014?)

Is it toxic saying anything bad about the game? No. Of course not. I can say a lot of bad things. I did. But one thing it's doing that, another thing different it's to turn every fucking thread into the same discussion about how Shenmue 3 is actually bad, while that's not the objective of the thread. If you want to spend every minute of your life in this forum complaining about how bad it is, just make a thread about it and discuss it there.

Just look at this interview. Everybody happy the first pages, then one appears in page 3 and BOOM. Again. How many times mods said to stop it on this thread? I think like 3 times.

 

[spud1897]

I have no desire to go over S3's flaws again, but in the interest of S4 being better, excusing things like grinding for money as somehow "immersive" has me really concerned about the future of the series. I have zero desire to be told to buy an absurdly expensive item with no recourse but to grind repetitive minigames ever again and it's fine if you liked it in S3--it exists, there's no changing it--but, seriously, show of hands: if S4 asks you to grind $10,000 before you can enter the Cliff Temple; do you honestly want that? Because it seems like Suzuki thinks you want that.


There's an element of truth to this with every fanbase, GMTK just did a good video that relates to it:


Though I must qualify that the flaws the Shenmue fanbase is talking about are far more substantial than something like an unbalanced enemy type.


Saying it's good is also subjective. It's worth remembering that game reviews notoriously skew very high compared with movies, it's rare for a major release to see anything lower than a 7 almost regardless of quality (there even used to be a joke about IGN's 7-10 review scale). Put it this way: can you even imagine a world where the latest Final Fantasy or Zelda game earns a Metacritic score in the 60s? People legitimately get fired over things like that.


Totally true, but since negative backlash is being considered by Suzuki, it's especially worth it for people who love S3 to imagine how that will influence S4. I think it's healthy to have discussions where we try to approach a middle ground.

It's a balance, what things will improve the game and what things are nitpicks/a waste of everyone's time.

The point around the money wall is fair but it's also easier to earn money, though from my personal experience I spent more money in the arcades than anything else so I ended up getting the money as a by-product of wanting to smash the arcade games.

Again this is raking up stuff that's gone round and round. Let's move on.

I know the joke you're referring to and IGN were part of the cash for reviews scandal way back. If a FF game sucked and was reviewed as such I find it madness that someone would lose their job over saying so, but it does and has happened. There was also the story of an IGN reviewer literally copy and pasting his reviews from a blogging site. Says enough about IGN reviews, I tend to ignore them.

 

[spud1897]

Honestly speaking, I see more abusive behaviour from some people loving the game. I have yet to see someone who criticised the game insulting personnally another person who loved the game. In fact, on this very page, I see a post calling said part of the community "toxic and retard".

I think you're being highly selective.

As I said before we've seen users wonder in on here and call people stupid for liking the game. You will also note I have personally dealt with a user who loved the game and did the exact same thing, they were reprimanded, so painting this we're being abused rubbish, it's not going to fly.

Clearly there is a frustration that topics keep ending up down the same discussion lines and it's getting beyond boring.

90% of posts on here are generally respectful but there seems to be an implicit need from some to try an derail the tone of a topic for no real need.

Let's stop this hyperbolic crap, discuss constructively, and move on!

 

[iknifaugood]

Complaining because there's a expensive bottle of wine it's exactly what I'm trying to say, thank you so much.

What are you trying to say? That it's good? That you want more of it?

Thanks so much for making my point about the red circle complaining about... The red circle.

The red circle (and the UI in general) aren't even in my top 50 complaints about S3, but what's your point? You like it so people aren't allowed to complain about it? Or do you think it's a good, well designed UI? Personally, I think S1 had the best UI in the series and they've been somehow getting worse.

Ya know what's toxic?

Yes:

Toxic it's complain because SIII isn't The Witcher 3 or Zelda BOTW, expecting the same results like this would be the same situation than 1999 or 2001.

I didn't do this. I brought up the Witcher 3 by very carefully qualifying that IF S4 wants to court a wider audience and IF it wants to make conversations a focus, then it at least needs to approach the quality of the Witcher 3 (a 5 year old game)'s conversations , because that's what the wider audience is used to. No one said "LOL Shenmue 3 isn't Witcher 3, 0/10".

But one thing it's doing that, another thing different it's to turn every fucking thread into the same discussion about how Shenmue 3 is actually bad, while that's not the objective of the thread.

I'm not talking about how bad S3 is; this thread is about an interview Suzuki gave about S4 in which he seems open to fixing certain things that were wrong with S3--it's perfectly expected that we would discuss what those things should be.

If a FF game sucked and was reviewed as such I find it madness that someone would lose their job over saying so, but it does and has happened.

I wasn't necessarily referring just to reviewers, people who make games get fired (or lose bonuses or have studios closed) based on meta scores. It's really fucked up but my point was that, by industry standards, 68/69 isn't really good per se but that's neither here nor there.

 

[spud1897]

I wasn't necessarily referring just to reviewers, people who make games get fired (or lose bonuses or have studios closed) based on meta scores. It's really fucked up but my point was that, by industry standards, 68/69 isn't really good per se but that's neither here nor there.

But it's also not bad

 

[iknifaugood]

But it's also not bad

Just as an aside, I think the logic behind the S3 reviews that claim "this game is perfect for fans but it offers a very niche gameplay experience, 6/10" are complete bullshit. There's such a fucking double standard with how From Software and DS clones are treated, where they get near perfect scores with the exact same thesis: "this game isn't for everyone, many players will be frustrated by the punishing, borderline unfair difficulty, only like 0.5% of players will actually even finish the damn thing, 10/10." Basically if your argument is that the game is basically perfect for a niche audience, then you either score the game based on that niche audience or how you think the wider audience will like it, not both.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Of course you didnt compare The Witcher 3, Zelda, Fallout, etc (remember the living a world vs best looking ever? Because I do )

I'm talking in general (lot of people, most of threads) but I love how you took that to yourselve and answered like I was talking specifically to you. How's the saying? Is it "a guilty's conscience needs no accuser"?

Oh yes, let's not quote the sells discussion, the turn into shit "love shenmue 3" threads, the "make your own rant thread", classic move.

Anyway I'll do a classic move too and will leave the thread. Don't want to piss off the mods and the people who doesn't wanna read this again and again.

 

[spud1897]

Just as an aside, I think the logic behind the S3 reviews that claim "this game is perfect for fans but it offers a very niche gameplay experience, 6/10" are complete bullshit. There's such a fucking double standard with how From Software and DS clones are treated, where they get near perfect scores with the exact same thesis: "this game isn't for everyone, many players will be frustrated by the punishing, borderline unfair difficulty, only like 0.5% of players will actually even finish the damn thing, 10/10." Basically if your argument is that the game is basically perfect for a niche audience, then you either score the game based on that niche audience or how you think the wider audience will like it, not both.

Couldn't agree more but people unfortunately don't

 

[orient]

Technically speaking QA best practices is to do just that; you have to start the game from the beginning, especially close to release, because you have to replicate the end user experience exactly. Obviously there should be dev tools in place to skip to any point in the game--I'd be shocked if that wasn't available in S1 (imagine if there was a bug during the 70 man battle??).

To be more specific: they hadn't yet implemented the time-skip feature, which is why QA couldn't just skip to any point in the game. They would've been able to save at certain points, but if they wanted to go from beginning to end, there was no way to speed it up, not even skipping cutscenes.

I don't really see how this is true at all. Most games start with a fast paced action hook to draw the player in and set the story up (like, you know, Shenmue 2), this was common practice even at the time, which is probably why it was a criticism of S1 and is still a criticism of S3. It's possible that something is getting lost in translation and he's talking more specifically about having the option to do menial activities, but in S1 (and S3), even if you follow just the story you have to do menial activities, which is where I think the criticism lies.

The only menial activity you have to do in Shenmue 1 is drive the forklift and that's part of the main quest. He specifically mentioned convenience stores, so the criticisms that stuck with him were almost certainly referring to the nature of the side activities and how they don't directly contribute to the main quest.

I appreciate you can't help but explain why criticisms of I (and III) don't apply to II, though

 

[SMDzero]

The only menial activity you have to do in Shenmue 1 is drive the forklift

Hey! That's offensive to real-life fork-lift drivers!

 

[iknifaugood]

The only menial activity you have to do in Shenmue 1 is drive the forklift and that's part of the main quest. He specifically mentioned convenience stores, so the criticisms that stuck with him were almost certainly referring to the nature of the side activities and how they don't directly contribute to the main quest.

But that runs counter to what the interview claims. It lumps "menial activities that don't contribute to the main story" with "going to the convenience store" as an example of criticism against the beginning of the first game specifically, that Suzuki supposedly took to heart. I'm assuming by "menial activity" they mean things like talking to NPCs, petting the cat, using a vending machine etc. Interactions that have no skill involved and aren't a puzzle, they exist for their own sake. The forklift job runs counter to all that; it requires skill, it ties into the main story, and it happens way later in the game; why would that be mentioned in the same breath as the opening cutscene?

I appreciate you can't help but explain why criticisms of I (and III) don't apply to II, though

I mean, you played them right? Am I misrepresenting anything?

Here's the longplay from S1, the first action sequence (and I’m being extremely generous by calling it that) happens at the 1 hour 27 minute mark, and it's a random event, the first forced action sequence is the QTE at Heartbeats bar, which is 2 hours into this video.

Here's S3. The first action sequence (the first encounter with the thugs) happens at 4 hours and 20 minutes. In fairness S3 has more combat in the form of sparring so it’s a little unfair.

And here's S2, 20 minutes in, where Ryo chases Wong to get his bag back and then has a FREE battle. It’s worth noting that this is a far longer, more complex action sequence (with branching QTEs) than the other two as well.

Obviously the different play times will vary but it’s not even close, S2 starts with a bang in a way that S1 and S3 simply don’t.

(EDIT) Fun fact: S1 and S3 both begin with 10 minute cutscenes (not counting the prologue) and S2 begins with a 5 minute cutscene (including the prologue), so subtract those times if you want to get the actual play time it takes to get to the first actions scene.

 

[Valascaziel]

All debates aside, I think this is clearly some of the best evidence we have that Shenmue IV will get made.

It is never going to be a barnburner, but the Shenmue fanbase is large enough to justify finishing the series, I'm sure.

He has a team, an engine, ideas and support from Cedric, Deep Silver and possibly Sony again(they have or had some kind of event in May for indie studios).

May be a while before we see it, especially considering the havoc wreaked by this pandemic worldwide, but I still think he'll get to make it.

Would be fitting if he was allowed to make 5 entries as promised and end the series at Shenmue V on the PS5.

 

[spud1897]

I mean, you played them right? Am I misrepresenting anything?

Here's the longplay from S1, the first action sequence (and I’m being extremely generous by calling it that) happens at the 1 hour 27 minute mark, and it's a random event, the first forced action sequence is the QTE at Heartbeats bar, which is 2 hours into this video.

Here's S3. The first action sequence (the first encounter with the thugs) happens at 4 hours and 20 minutes. In fairness S3 has more combat in the form of sparring so it’s a little unfair.

And here's S2, 20 minutes in, where Ryo chases Wong to get his bag back and then has a FREE battle. It’s worth noting that this is a far longer, more complex action sequence (with branching QTEs) than the other two as well.

Obviously the different play times will vary but it’s not even close, S2 starts with a bang in a way that S1 and S3 simply don’t.

It all fits into the wider pacing of each game for me.

Shenmue I you're in Ryo's hometown which is safe, secure and everyone knows him. So to get into a proper punch-up inside the first 30 mins doesn't fit how the scene was set. It makes zero sense. Now whether people like it or not is another question.

Shenmue III you get your first FREE Battle (for want of a better expression) within the first 60-90 mins with the Bookie, not counting the sparring. It serves the same broad purpose as the Heartbeats Bar fight, to lead you a clue which then you end up in a bigger battle, in this case with the Thugs in Bailu for the first time. Now this is where whether it fits the narrative or not comes down to some guessing. I'd always wondered a what if scenario of Shenhua and Ryo leaving the cave and Bailu being overrun with ChiYouMen and them essentially having to battle down to the village before you start going off on the Mirrors lore etc.

However it looks like they wanted to establish Bailu as a more community type place similar to Dobuita. Maybe that's why I liked it. So you get to know the village, people etc. We also don't know until later on in the game that the thugs are still in Bailu (this could have done with more explanation maybe) until around the actual interaction with them. Once we have that initial fight the story beats start moving much more freely.

They seem to have used Shenmue I as a pacing marker for Shenmue III in the way things push towards the final hour or so. That's fine for what it is and what they were going for.

Shenmue II Ryo getting done over early on and then having the first proper QTE sequence (QTE's and the branching paths were brilliant here) within the first 20-30 mins makes sense. He is on his own, in a foreign country and is naive. It fits the presentation and later on when he is chasing after Zhu in Kowloon, all the fights/action sequences work. It does hook you much faster for sure but it makes sense.

 

[orient]

But that runs counter to what the interview claims. It lumps "menial activities that don't contribute to the main story" with "going to the convenience store" as an example of criticism against the beginning of the first game specifically, that Suzuki supposedly took to heart. I'm assuming by "menial task" they mean things like talking to NPCs, petting the cat, using a vending machine etc. Interactions that have no skill involved and aren't a puzzle, they exist for their own sake. The forklift job runs counter to all that; it requires skill, it ties into the main story, and it happens way later in the game; why would that be mentioned in the same breath as the opening cutscene?

I'm lost. I thought I made it clear from my initial post that the criticism was referring to optional side stuff...I mentioned the forklift as an example of what he wasn't talking about, because you said "even if you just do the main quest you still have to do menial activities" or whatever, which is unrelated to what was said, so I was trying to get back on track.

The answer from the Q&A wasn't referring specifically to the opening of the game, either. Not sure where you got that impression. It's that the casual side stuff felt at-odds with the "Father murdered, get revenge" plot. That's all. It's a common thing people point out about the series.

I mean, you played them right? Am I misrepresenting anything?

It's that you went on a tangent for what seemed like no other reason than to point out that whatever criticism was being levelled at the first game didn't apply to Shenmue II. Don't worry, Shenmue II is safe. No one can hurt it

 

[iknifaugood]

I'm lost. I thought I made it clear from my initial post that the criticism was referring to optional side stuff...I mentioned the forklift as an example of what he wasn't talking about, because you said "even if you just do the main quest you still have to do menial activities" or whatever, which is unrelated to what was said, so I was trying to get back on track.

Now I'm lost because I said " It's possible that something is getting lost in translation and he's talking more specifically about having the option to do menial activities" but why would he be so concerned about that critique if you just do menial activities as an option? You can do nothing but flush toilets and turn on sinks in Duke Nukem if you want, in almost every RPG you have the option of doing nothing but talk to random NPCs and explore houses with no purpose etc. It's not like Shenmue invented optional content...

The answer from the Q&A wasn't referring specifically to the opening of the game, either. Not sure where you got that impression. It's that the casual side stuff felt at-odds with the "Father murdered, get revenge" plot. That's all. It's a common thing people point out about the series.

That's true, I guess it was just the way it was phrased, but this leads in to what I was questioning which is why be concerned with the criticism of the optional content? I thought the main critique of S1 was with the main content ie: you have to avenge your father but first you have to ask people about a black car, and then sailors and then...and then etc.

It's that you went on a tangent for what seemed like no other reason than to point out that whatever criticism was being levelled at the first game didn't apply to Shenmue II.

What tangent? I just said that S1 and S3 start slowly when most games (including S2) start with a bang.

Don't worry, Shenmue II is safe. No one can hurt it

Phew. I was worried there for a sec.

It all fits into the wider pacing of each game for me.

I agree, it makes sense why each game starts the way it does (though I think S3 would have benefitted greatly from moving the thug encounter closer to the beginning), but it's definitely something worth re-examining if Suzuki wants to appeal to a wider audience. It's not like S2 is this lightning paced game compared to most games anyway, after that first action scene it's good long while before the next one.

Shenmue III you get your first FREE Battle (for want of a better expression) within the first 60-90 mins with the Bookie, not counting the sparring. It serves the same broad purpose as the Heartbeats Bar fight, to lead you a clue which then you end up in a bigger battle, in this case with the Thugs in Bailu for the first time.

I thought about this but I honestly don't consider it to be the same thing as "the first action sequence that hooks the player and propels the plot forward", it's more of a mandatory introduction to the battle system and hardly something as memorable as the Heartbeats encounter or chasing Wong.

 

[24Nathan]

Some interesting tidbits I forgot about: Suzuki always saw I & II as a single story, and everything beyond another story. Due to the way things panned out, not much work at all was done on content post-Shenmue II. So basically that infamous Kikizo article was a load of .

I wouldn't say that. There was an update from Ziming way back when who had contacted Adam, and while still standing by his original story, publicly stated the fact that things can change and since he as relying on anonymous sources, he basically understood the criticism of that article.

Remember, this article was posted in August of 2005. SEGA Sammy Holdings was created the previous year, October 2004, after Shenmue Online was well into development, which Yu Suzuki was primarily handling as head of Digitalrex, and later AM Plus. Shin Ishikawa gave the "whiteboard interview" in 2003, which had both created the 16 chapter mystery as well as confirmed the series' supposed future home on Xbox hardware. There are rumors, referenced in the Kikizo article and also one of the recent Shenmue books that Shenmue III was in development (to what stage is unknown) on the original Xbox and almost was announced, but for some reason was shelved. We also know that Shenmue Online began development in February of 2003, so Shin Ishikawa and others at Am2 were likely at the helm of continuing the main game(s), even if just until Yu was done with Shenmue Online.

Aside from the Shenmue side of things, Kikizo had unprecedented access to a lot of big names in video games, including SEGA Japan and Yu Suzuki. To state that it had no basis because it simply didn't come true at the time would simply be naive.

 

[SMDzero]

Now I'm lost because I said " It's possible that something is getting lost in translation and he's talking more specifically about having the option to do menial activities" but why would he be so concerned about that critique if you just do menial activities as an option? You can do nothing but flush toilets and turn on sinks in Duke Nukem if you want, in almost every RPG you have the option of doing nothing but talk to random NPCs and explore houses with no purpose etc. It's not like Shenmue invented optional content...


That's true, I guess it was just the way it was phrased, but this leads in to what I was questioning which is why be concerned with the criticism of the optional content? I thought the main critique of S1 was with the main content ie: you have to avenge your father but first you have to ask people about a black car, and then sailors and then...and then etc.


What tangent? I just said that S1 and S3 start slowly when most games (including S2) start with a bang.


Phew. I was worried there for a sec.


I agree, it makes sense why each game starts the way it does (though I think S3 would have benefitted greatly from moving the thug encounter closer to the beginning), but it's definitely something worth re-examining if Suzuki wants to appeal to a wider audience. It's not like S2 is this lightning paced game compared to most games anyway, after that first action scene it's good long while before the next one.


I thought about this but I honestly don't consider it to be the same thing as "the first action sequence that hooks the player and propels the plot forward", it's more of a mandatory introduction to the battle system and hardly something as memorable as the Heartbeats encounter or chasing Wong.

I wouldn't say that. There was an update from Ziming way back when who had contacted Adam, and while still standing by his original story, publicly stated the fact that things can change and since he as relying on anonymous sources, he basically understood the criticism of that article.

Remember, this article was posted in August of 2005. SEGA Sammy Holdings was created the previous year, October 2004, after Shenmue Online was well into development, which Yu Suzuki was primarily handling as head of Digitalrex, and later AM Plus. Shin Ishikawa gave the "whiteboard interview" in 2003, which had both created the 16 chapter mystery as well as confirmed the series' supposed future home on Xbox hardware. There are rumors, referenced in the Kikizo article and also one of the recent Shenmue books that Shenmue III was in development (to what stage is unknown) on the original Xbox and almost was announced, but for some reason was shelved. We also know that Shenmue Online began development in February of 2003, so Shin Ishikawa and others at Am2 were likely at the helm of continuing the main game(s), even if just until Yu was done with Shenmue Online.

Aside from the Shenmue side of things, Kikizo had unprecedented access to a lot of big names in video games, including SEGA Japan and Yu Suzuki. To state that it had no basis because it simply didn't come true at the time would simply be naive.

But didn't Adam Doree said that development of Shenmue 3 was essentially finished and would be released when either Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo signed an exclusivity deal for the entire series?

 

[orient]

I wouldn't say that. There was an update from Ziming way back when who had contacted Adam, and while still standing by his original story, publicly stated the fact that things can change and since he as relying on anonymous sources, he basically understood the criticism of that article.

Remember, this article was posted in August of 2005. SEGA Sammy Holdings was created the previous year, October 2004, after Shenmue Online was well into development, which Yu Suzuki was primarily handling as head of Digitalrex, and later AM Plus. Shin Ishikawa gave the "whiteboard interview" in 2003, which had both created the 16 chapter mystery as well as confirmed the series' supposed future home on Xbox hardware. There are rumors, referenced in the Kikizo article and also one of the recent Shenmue books that Shenmue III was in development (to what stage is unknown) on the original Xbox and almost was announced, but for some reason was shelved. We also know that Shenmue Online began development in February of 2003, so Shin Ishikawa and others at Am2 were likely at the helm of continuing the main game(s), even if just until Yu was done with Shenmue Online.

Aside from the Shenmue side of things, Kikizo had unprecedented access to a lot of big names in video games, including SEGA Japan and Yu Suzuki. To state that it had no basis because it simply didn't come true at the time would simply be naive.

I'm not saying they didn't have access or were lying for clicks. I'm saying the main thrust of their report, that: "[Shenmue 3] has essentially been close to finished and 'ready' for some time" was almost certainly inaccurate. Either their sources were second-hand and they were receiving weak info, or something was lost in translation, or someone along the chain got too excited about the prospect of S3 and started exaggerating the truth, or someone thought an article like this would boost the chances of S3 being released...there are many, many possibilities. The idea that they could've come close to completing S3 without Yu Suzuki really knowing about it, I just don't buy it

 

[B-Man]

Not to be that guy, but I just searched the Kickstarter page and the word "economy" isn't used once but 5 of the stretch goals that were met are about expanding Baisha. Granted I didn't follow development closely, I basically gave him my money and watched the trailers, so I can't speak to the intervening 4 years, but I never got the sense that this was a goal of his from the KS. This is also the kind of stuff that relates to the above post.

But if you watch this video from the day Shenmue III was announced, literally the first thing he talks about regarding the game itself is the "new skill system." He talks about the "technique scrolls" and how they "will connect to the different aspects of the game," including "the mini-games, betting games, and shops." It's really the only thing he talked about in any detail. Taking this into account, it should be obvious in hindsight that the game's economy system was something that he was chomping at the bit to implement from the very start of the project.

 

[orient]

but why would he be so concerned about that critique if you just do menial activities as an option?

...but this leads in to what I was questioning which is why be concerned with the criticism of the optional content?

I don't pretend to know the inner workings of Yu Suzuki If those criticisms stuck with him then they stuck with him. Sorry he didn't mention the criticisms you thought he should mention, I guess!

What tangent? I just said that S1 and S3 start slowly when most games (including S2) start with a bang.

Which had nothing to do with the Q&A. If you really want me to bite, Shenmue II gets to some action quicker than I or III, no doubt, but to say it "starts with a bang" is uh, not the most accurate description, I'd say. Not that this is the thread to go down that rabbit hole.

@B-Man I actually forgot about that Good find.