SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

Again, I think you could make this argument of many of the events and elements that have taken place in the series so far.
Sure, if you want to leave out the bad guys that only serve to temporarily inconvenience Ryo (Chai, Terry, Dou Niu, Yuan etc.) but ultimately don't affect the larger narrative, that makes total sense.

If Xiuying had shown up and given Ryo the pendant at the beginning of Shenmue 3 or had Ryo been given the poetry scroll by master Feng and told that it was one of his father's old possessions, would it really make a difference?
Finding Xiuying is literally Ryo's first objective in Shenmue 2, she's responsible for him learning the wude, she saves his life multiple times, trains him, is instrumental in Ryo's ability to beat the final boss, she will almost certainly be coming back and tells him about a character we will almost certainly meet who has connection to the CYM. If she shows up in S4 the way Chai unceremoniously shows up in S3, S4 has big problems. Either way, no summary of S2 could possibly leave her out, even in the cheeky way we're doing it. And to the best of my knowledge, the poetry scroll is a hidden item that can be missed in S1.

What if Xiuying giving the pendant to Ryo was simply a metaphor for her letting go of her brother and the guilt that she felt for not convincing him to stay? Him leaving as a child and her inability to convince him not to go is something that she's carried with her for her whole life. Ryo following the same path in spite of all of her warnings and training may have helped her to accept that sometimes, people's minds simply can't be changed and that there was nothing she could have said or done to have stopped her older brother from leaving all those years ago (especially considering that she was only a child at the time).

I really hope we meet Zimming and that the pendant has an impact on that situation, but there's no guarantee that either of these things are going to happen.
True that there's no guarantee, but I would consider it to be a colossal missed opportunity as well as frankly poor storytelling if that was the first and last we heard of Ziming.

Conversely, we are given an amber pendant by Elder Yeh during Shenmue 3 and are also told by Shenhua that she had been given an amber pendant by her father when she was a child. How can you say with any surety that this pendant won't come into play somewhere later on in the story and that the pendant itself doesn't have some kind of connection to her powers?
Because I sold it for $300? It's also not mentioned in any kind of context that would imply it has anything to do with Shenhua's powers or the story at large, unlike Xiuying's pendant which is given as she's talking about someone who swore revenge and was looking for the CYM. It's also her parting gift which generally implies a pretty big deal.

Agreed, but I think this is emblematic of Ryo's inability to put his emotions aside and accept his own limitations as a martial artist. We see this at several points throughout the story - and that his first reaction after getting his ass kicked by Mr. Muscles mk.1 is to go straight back for a second round suggests that he still needs to learn the virtue of patience before he can progress as a martial artist.
I feel like by the end of part 3 of a 5 part series, the main character should've maybe moved past that initial character flaw. But in the context of S3, yes Ryo is shown to be impatient and overestimating of his abilities from the beginning to the end (he loses nearly every major fight initially), which is why many, including SEPW, claim that his character is in the exact same spot. Better not run Lan Di!

I really don't subscribe to this idea that Yu saw Shenmue 3 as nothing more than a launchpad for Shenmue 4. Unless a deal was struck with Deep Silver to publish both Shenmue 3 and Shenmue 4 (which I suppose is possible, if not a little improbable), Yu had no reason not to put his all into Shenmue 3 and make it the best game he possibly could.
I don't think he viewed it as a launchpad, but he may have been cautious about committing to anything and thus structured the story in such a way that it could be scaled up or scaled down (with the adverse effect of leaving S3's story feeling inconsequential) depending on how things went. There is no mention of the four leaders of the CYM for example; perhaps he left himself room to leave it as simply Niao Sun vs. Lan Di in order to truncate the story if he couldn't get a bigger budget? I'm not saying this was for nefarious reasons, simply practical ones. I don't think Suzuki is trying to pull a fast one on anyone, if I did, I wouldn't be here.
 
Finding Xiuying is literally Ryo's first objective in Shenmue 2, she's responsible for him learning the wude, she saves his life multiple times, trains him, is instrumental in Ryo's ability to beat the final boss, she will almost certainly be coming back and tells him about a character we will almost certainly meet who has connection to the CYM. If she shows up in S4 the way Chai unceremoniously shows up in S3, S4 has big problems. Either way, no summary of S2 could possibly leave her out, even in the cheeky way we're doing it. And to the best of my knowledge, the poetry scroll is a hidden item that can be missed in S1.
Agreed, as evidenced by the fact that even when trying to cut out as much of Shenmue 2's none-essential story as possible, I mentioned Xiuying as she is absolutely essential to Shenmue 2's narrative. Her giving Ryo the pendant though? Assuming it ends up being important at all (to be clear, I do think it will), when and where she gives this to Ryo is pretty inconsequential.
True that there's no guarantee, but I would consider it to be a colossal missed opportunity as well as frankly poor storytelling if that was the first and last we heard of Ziming.
Agreed, but one could argue that we saw plenty of poor story-telling in Shenmue 3 - so if one subscribes to that argument, it should be entirely possible that this could continue into future games. Plus there's the matter of budget. If Yu has to cut the four leaders story-line in order to wrap everything up in a single game, who is to say that Zimming won't be cut along with it (I know that Yu has stated that Zimming is not one of the four leaders, but I'd always envisaged him being introduced as part of this wider plot)?
Because I sold it for $300?
Lol. Okay; perhaps the amber pendant wasn't the best example here!
It's also not mentioned in any kind of context that would imply it has anything to do with Shenhua's powers or the story at large, unlike Xiuying's pendant which is given as she's talking about someone who swore revenge and was looking for the CYM. It's also her parting gift which generally implies a pretty big deal.
Ryo is constantly being given photographs and little objects as parting gifts, but I don't think there's anybody banking on Nozomi's amulet or the photo of Fangmei having a big impact on the story moving forwards. I do agree that Xiuying's pendant is presented in such a way as to imply that it will be important later in the story, but until that moment in the story arrives (assuming it ever does), I'd say that it holds no real significance aside from being a reminder of Xiuying and a symbol of her failure to once again convince a man that she cares about to turn his back on revenge.
I feel like by the end of part 3 of a 5 part series, the main character should've maybe moved past that initial character flaw. But in the context of S3, yes Ryo is shown to be impatient and overestimating of his abilities from the beginning to the end (he loses nearly every major fight initially), which is why many, including SEPW, claim that his character is in the exact same spot. Better not run Lan Di!
I can agree with this to an extent, but feel like the narrative threads established earlier in the series make it very difficult for Yu to speed up Ryo's arc too much as there is simply too much that needs to happen before the story is ready for a properly adjusted Ryo. I also feel as though the events that trigger Ryo's 'moment of realization' are precluded by other events that simply can't happen at this point in the story.

Ultimately I have no issue with the change to Ryo's mindset taking time as I have experienced this kind of stubborn determination in my life (both in myself and in those around me) and am well aware that these things can often take time (assuming that is, that the person ever changes). That Ryo's mindset hasn't changed doesn't mean that his character arc hasn't progressed though nor does it negate the things that he experienced throughout the course of Shenmue 3.
I don't think he viewed it as a launchpad, but he may have been cautious about committing to anything and thus structured the story in such a way that it could be scaled up or scaled down (with the adverse effect of leaving S3's story feeling inconsequential) depending on how things went. There is no mention of the four leaders of the CYM for example; perhaps he left himself room to leave it as simply Niao Sun vs. Lan Di in order to truncate the story if he couldn't get a bigger budget? I'm not saying this was for nefarious reasons, simply practical ones. I don't think Suzuki is trying to pull a fast one on anyone, if I did, I wouldn't be here.
I agree with this (especially the example that you gave, which I think is quite likely), but not the way that SEPW presents the argument at the end of his video.
 
Personally I don't think these fades are a big problem, but they are sometimes jaring.
Personally, I have a hard time taking these kinds of criticisms seriously, because: A) They're part of the first two Shenmue games (as well as all kinds of other visual media); B) They're re-framing the scene without having to animating the in-between moments. Cutting straight from two characters walking down a path, to them standing in a separate location is a big editing "no-no." (Unless it's intentional to confuse and disorient people.)

All I hear with this critique is, 'I have been forced to acknowledge a screen transition that isn't a wipe, and it confuses and scares me!'


What if Xiuying giving the pendant to Ryo was simply a metaphor for her letting go of her brother and the guilt that she felt for not convincing him to stay? Him leaving as a child and her inability to convince him not to go is something that she's carried with her for her whole life. Ryo following the same path in spite of all of her warnings and training may have helped her to accept that sometimes, people's minds simply can't be changed and that there was nothing she could have said or done to have stopped her older brother from leaving all those years ago (especially considering that she was only a child at the time).
You really deserve a prize for this. Not just for the excellent analysis, but also for the incredible patience displayed in trying to carry a conversation with someone who repeatedly shifts arguments in order to avoid any sort of concession.
 
You really deserve a prize for this. Not just for the excellent analysis, but also for the incredible patience displayed in trying to carry a conversation with someone who repeatedly shifts arguments in order to avoid any sort of concession.
Lol. Thanks, but I think you’re being a little harsh toward iknifaugood here. He’s raised some excellent points throughout our discussion and whilst I agree that in some instances he may have shifted points a little to suit his argument (something that I myself have probably been guilty of), I think our disagreements just come down to a few fundamental ideas that each of us hold and I can’t really hold that against him. I think he’s argued his points in good faith, which is more than I can say of some of the other posters here on the dojo.
 
Ugh, dammit. I started reading, and forgot what I was here for.
I’m fairly certain that the cost would be the same whether they were writing for primary or secondary characters, but it’s certainly possible that Yu took on some of the writing workload to minimize the amount that would need to be spent on writers.

If that were the case though, I think the question then becomes why did Yu (a programmer/engineer) take on the most important elements while hiring a professional writer just to write secondary parts? Furthermore, if the budget wasn’t there to hire a writer for the complete project, could/should less important things like the capsule toys and the stamina system been scrapped or scaled back to free up some additional funds? I don’t think you’ll find many people arguing that these elements are more important than a coherent, compelling story.
Here's a glimpse of how the writing team went about things back twenty years ago:

Suzuki was always pretty heavily involved in the scenario writing, if this is any indication. Casual NPC dialogue is a lot of writing to do, but also I feel like the flavor text might have been almost used to retain people. For what end, I don't know.

(Also, peep that fly ass bomber jacket. I wonder if it's something he got while flying Tomcats in Florida for "research" on After Burner.)
 
You're talking about how it fades to white, loads the next cutscene and then shows the screen in white again, fading out so you can see Ryo & Shenhua near the Dojo in Bailu Village?

I'm not sure if you noticed, but there's a clear black loading screen right in the middle of this 'example' and for some reason that wasn't cut? I don't remember the Shenmue I and II equivalents of these videos having loading screens present. The intention is pretty simple imo, the screen fades to white after a cutscene and then if you imagine that black loading screen wasn't there, you see Ryo & Shenhua now at Bailu Village... I'm really not sure what it is this is supposed to be an exemplification of, but all I see is a quick cut which shows that they have moved on from the cave and are now in Bailu Village. Not really too sure how you can decide that to be 'pointless', to be honest.


No, for the first video, I'm talking about how the transition from the cave to the village was done. The problem here isn't how it's fading to another screen. It's that the characters move to the new location while holding the same position, as if they were teleported. It's another issue altogether that is related to the poor cutscene direction. The other video though is about how the black screen cuts look bad (and the conversations as a whole).

They moved from the cave to Bailu village.. but while retaining the same position. It's like they were teleported. They didn't fade the cutscene directly to them in Bailu village walking, but as if they were in the cave 1 second ago and teleported.
 
It's not just you 🤫

It's obviously not ideal for a cinematic game to have pauses like this, and if it happened in every scene I'd complain about it myself, but as it stands it's more of a niggle for me, that unfortunately leaves a bad first impression. However, once it was over I barely noticed it happening again (it probably does...but it wasn't obvious or frequent enough for me to take notice).
 
While i do agree with alot of the criticisms with Shenmue 3s story, pacing, voice work and mechanics etc, i also believe even if Shenmue 4 is a more than perfect game (12/10), there will be a group of fans who will still dislike it for whatever reason.

Maybe Ryo's jacket is lighter than usual in one scene. Maybe one strand of hair is out of place. Maybe Shenhua says hello at 0.5 seconds rather than 0.7 seconds. Or maybe Lan Di walks for 0.0000000005 seconds too long during the ending.

I know i sound ridiculous right now, but i have seen quite a few very over dramatic fans who criticise every single aspect of the game. I'm thinking there's no way you'll be able to enjoy the series no matter what happens from here on out.

I'm not necessarily referring to people on this forum. Its just something ive noticed over the years. Again, I'm behind the fan criticisms of Shenmue 3 even though i adore and enjoy the game. But there's definitely some Shenmue Karens out there. I call them Sharens
 

Haha, Someone give this man a medal, that is hilarious. That Shenmue 3 dog is still a little too strong though.

This seems more appropriate

5f2f26c4d56aa13ea47cf6228d0a403e.jpg


Sharen's true form
 
Personally I think it's a bit silly to get worked up over a few cuts to black, but hey that's me 😅🤪

The problem isn't that there are few cuts to black. The problem is that it contributes to really poorly directed cutscenes.

It's amateurish. There are amateurs doing better with SFM stuff.
When you have Ryo and Shenhua walking awkwardly, then you get a cut to show them talking face to face while stopping to walk then another cut to get them walking awkwardly again while talking... That's not acceptable. That just looks bad. How is that competent story telling ?

20 years ago Shenmue II handled that much better. Sure, the budget wasn't the same... So was the technology. Today's technology allows you to do much better cutscenes than Shenmue II for a lot cheaper. But if you dont know how to direct a scene, the result you get is Shenmue III.

If now we're saying that it's nitpicking that the cutscenes look worse than amateur stuff most of the time (there are some decent looking cutscenes of course), I dont know what else to say. The bad collisions and battle system are nitpicking too, the game structure is nitpicking too. There's no issues with the game then. Just nitpickers.
 
The problem isn't that there are few cuts to black. The problem is that it contributes to really poorly directed cutscenes.

It's amateurish. There are amateurs doing better with SFM stuff.
When you have Ryo and Shenhua walking awkwardly, then you get a cut to show them talking face to face while stopping to walk then another cut to get them walking awkwardly again while talking... That's not acceptable. That just looks bad. How is that competent story telling ?

20 years ago Shenmue II handled that much better. Sure, the budget wasn't the same... So was the technology. Today's technology allows you to do much better cutscenes than Shenmue II for a lot cheaper. But if you dont know how to direct a scene, the result you get is Shenmue III.

If now we're saying that it's nitpicking that the cutscenes look worse than amateur stuff most of the time (there are some decent looking cutscenes of course), I dont know what else to say. The bad collisions and battle system are nitpicking too, the game structure is nitpicking too. There's no issues with the game then. Just nitpickers.
you are totally right, the cutscenes are hell on heart,with some crazy cut and bad camera angle choice,the story is bad but the cinematic storytelling is even worse
 
The problem isn't that there are few cuts to black. The problem is that it contributes to really poorly directed cutscenes.

It's amateurish. There are amateurs doing better with SFM stuff.
When you have Ryo and Shenhua walking awkwardly, then you get a cut to show them talking face to face while stopping to walk then another cut to get them walking awkwardly again while talking... That's not acceptable. That just looks bad. How is that competent story telling ?

20 years ago Shenmue II handled that much better. Sure, the budget wasn't the same... So was the technology. Today's technology allows you to do much better cutscenes than Shenmue II for a lot cheaper. But if you dont know how to direct a scene, the result you get is Shenmue III.

If now we're saying that it's nitpicking that the cutscenes look worse than amateur stuff most of the time (there are some decent looking cutscenes of course), I dont know what else to say. The bad collisions and battle system are nitpicking too, the game structure is nitpicking too. There's no issues with the game then. Just nitpickers.
I think you're overreacting.

The cutscenes fade to black was odd and isn't found in many games found today but without knowing the decision that took them down that route it's a little unfair to call it amateurish. Given the rest of the game doesn't have many (if any more) of those it just highlights an odd decision even more.

Its fairer to say the production quality is inconsistent, that's exactly what it is. The leaving cutscene from Bailu is nicely done as is the ending when Ryo gets his ass handed to him. Oh and the little snippet with Feng when Ryo remembers his father, that's nice. But you would counter that with Rens introduction scene being poorly executed or Sheilings introduction as two counters.

The fighting system itself has input lag but it does have a depth to it if you give it time. Its unpolished but it's hardly terrible. The collisions are in need of major improvement I agree.

But then again we're going around in circles. We know the faults of the game but it comes down to personal preference as to how they impede your experience.

For me it didn't matter but the story was undercooked. Someone else may think it's the worse thing ever and that's fine but there's a severe lack of willingness on both sides to accept each others side. There can be a general consensus on anything but it doesn't mean an individual has to follow it.

It's hardly like Shenmue III walked in, robbed your house and laughed about it. What I think some are finding frustrating is not only the above but also a lack of cohesiveness to say, these are the issues, this is what we could do to solve them, discuss and improve.

I question how much some people want a Shenmue 4 here I really do. Wider of here there's plenty, who despite the faults and making those known, want Shenmue 4 as much as Shenmue III.

My advice is simple, want Shenmue 4? Get on board and make it happen. We can voice our concerns constructively but that doesn't detract from the goal of making the 4th game happen.
 
It's hardly like Shenmue III walked in, robbed your house and laughed about it. What I think some are finding frustrating is not only the above but also a lack of cohesiveness to say, these are the issues, this is what we could do to solve them, discuss and improve.
I’m sorry, but I think you’re being a little dismissive here Spud. Some people wasted their lives waiting for Shenmue 3, don’t you know?
 
No, for the first video, I'm talking about how the transition from the cave to the village was done. The problem here isn't how it's fading to another screen. It's that the characters move to the new location while holding the same position, as if they were teleported. It's another issue altogether that is related to the poor cutscene direction. The other video though is about how the black screen cuts look bad (and the conversations as a whole).

They moved from the cave to Bailu village.. but while retaining the same position. It's like they were teleported. They didn't fade the cutscene directly to them in Bailu village walking, but as if they were in the cave 1 second ago and teleported.

Yeah, I'm just gonna come out and say: that's intentional. It's not like they 'teleported' at all, that's what the cutscene is showing.. that they were in the cave and now they're not. For being someone who likes to think they understand cutscene direction, I'd have thought you'd have understood this stuff.
 
I’m sorry, but I think you’re being a little dismissive here Spud. Some people wasted their lives waiting for Shenmue 3, don’t you know?
I literally almost died on my lunch!
 
The problem isn't that there are few cuts to black. The problem is that it contributes to really poorly directed cutscenes.

It's amateurish. There are amateurs doing better with SFM stuff.
When you have Ryo and Shenhua walking awkwardly, then you get a cut to show them talking face to face while stopping to walk then another cut to get them walking awkwardly again while talking... That's not acceptable. That just looks bad. How is that competent story telling ?

20 years ago Shenmue II handled that much better. Sure, the budget wasn't the same... So was the technology. Today's technology allows you to do much better cutscenes than Shenmue II for a lot cheaper. But if you dont know how to direct a scene, the result you get is Shenmue III.

If now we're saying that it's nitpicking that the cutscenes look worse than amateur stuff most of the time (there are some decent looking cutscenes of course), I dont know what else to say. The bad collisions and battle system are nitpicking too, the game structure is nitpicking too. There's no issues with the game then. Just nitpickers.

Well, I think you're blowing it a little bit out of proportion.

Since 95% of the game doesn't have those instances of cuts to black, I'm sure it could be overlooked and forgiven. It could just be a case of lack of polish (i.e. they ran out of time to really tidy those specific scenes up).
So in that case, yes, I think it's nitpicking.

I aren't even going to humour you on the sarcastic comments at the end of your post.
 
I think you're overreacting.

The cutscenes fade to black was odd and isn't found in many games found today but without knowing the decision that took them down that route it's a little unfair to call it amateurish. Given the rest of the game doesn't have many (if any more) of those it just highlights an odd decision even more.

Its fairer to say the production quality is inconsistent, that's exactly what it is. The leaving cutscene from Bailu is nicely done as is the ending when Ryo gets his ass handed to him. Oh and the little snippet with Feng when Ryo remembers his father, that's nice. But you would counter that with Rens introduction scene being poorly executed or Sheilings introduction as two counters.

The fighting system itself has input lag but it does have a depth to it if you give it time. Its unpolished but it's hardly terrible. The collisions are in need of major improvement I agree.

But then again we're going around in circles. We know the faults of the game but it comes down to personal preference as to how they impede your experience.

For me it didn't matter but the story was undercooked. Someone else may think it's the worse thing ever and that's fine but there's a severe lack of willingness on both sides to accept each others side. There can be a general consensus on anything but it doesn't mean an individual has to follow it.

It's hardly like Shenmue III walked in, robbed your house and laughed about it. What I think some are finding frustrating is not only the above but also a lack of cohesiveness to say, these are the issues, this is what we could do to solve them, discuss and improve.

I question how much some people want a Shenmue 4 here I really do. Wider of here there's plenty, who despite the faults and making those known, want Shenmue 4 as much as Shenmue III.

My advice is simple, want Shenmue 4? Get on board and make it happen. We can voice our concerns constructively but that doesn't detract from the goal of making the 4th game happen.



The problem isn't that there are fades to black screen. It often happens when you change the scene. The problem is how they're handled. And the way they are done is amateurish.

Yeah, I'm just gonna come out and say: that's intentional. It's not like they 'teleported' at all, that's what the cutscene is showing.. that they were in the cave and now they're not. For being someone who likes to think they understand cutscene direction, I'd have thought you'd have understood this stuff.



I understood that part. The problem is that they keep the same position that they had in the cave.

The issue isn't that in one scene they're in the cave and there's a fade in and then they're outside. The problem is that at the end of the cave scene, Ryo and Shenhua are standing up, looking at each others, there's a fade in, then they're next to Bailu village, standing and looking at each others in the very same position than the previous scene when they were supposed to have moved. It's awkward and badly done.
 
The problem isn't that there are fades to black screen. It often happens when you change the scene. The problem is how they're handled. And the way they are done is amateurish.





I understood that part. The problem is that they keep the same position that they had in the cave.

The issue isn't that in one scene they're in the cave and there's a fade in and then they're outside. The problem is that at the end of the cave scene, Ryo and Shenhua are standing up, looking at each others, there's a fade in, then they're next to Bailu village, standing and looking at each others in the very same position than the previous scene when they were supposed to have moved. It's awkward and badly done.
But they're not in the same position. Shenhua has turned away a bit, Ryo has moved, they're closer together. Oh and not holding torches
 
Back
Top