4 leaders of the chi you men

dnlandi

dnlandi

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Greece
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Shenmue II
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shenmue III
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dnikoles
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Hi guys I just completed shenmue 3 after playing nearly 50 hours my opinion about the game is that yu Suzuki and his team manage to deliver a true sequel to the originals however I want to discuss a few things about the chi you men. 1st of all we didn't get any info regarding the 4 leaders of the chi you men 2nd i notice Niao sun says after she tries to burn Lan di Tha the chi you men are hers now and 3rd it didn't mention that niao sun is the leader of the south or Lan Di is the leader of the east, all I am trying to say is that I am afraid that yu Suzuki might change his original vision of the chi you men leaders from 4 to simple 2 Lan Di and niao sun. What is your opinion??
 

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I think you might be right. It is a possibility that he altered the story since 2001, and I'm not opposed to it. I thought the idea of 4 big baddies in each direction is intriguing, though. Could we get more info about these guys in two games? I don't see why not
 
Shenmue 3 did not confirm one way or the other whether there are 4 leaders of the Chi You Men. I am slightly concerned that Yu-san has trimmed the plot down so that it will be just Lan Di and Niao Sun. However, this is purely based on the rushed nature of the end game of 3 and the lack of time spent on the Chi You Men. It may be the case that, if we are only 40% through, that it is not time for the structure of the Chi You Men to be revealed. In regards to Niao Sun's comment that the Chi You Men are now her's, this could simply be an expression of her view that Lan Di was her chief opponent to taking over the organisation. Perhaps she does not view the other 2 as much of a threat.
 
What S3 did was basically shitting all over the story of the first two games.

Both Shenhua and Ryo didn't seem to care about the prophecy or Mr Yuan's letter, Ryo acted as if Lan Di being Zhao Sunming's son was news to him, Shenhua in S2 is all about "I care about my daddy so much. I need to find some herbs to rub his back with to cure his cough." In S3, she does not even talk to him after saving him. Ryo talks to him alone. Ryo receives a move scroll with his father's name on it from the Huaxiao Temple priest and doesn't even bother asking the priest about it. And the list goes on and on.
 
Yeah the third leader was suppose to have a role in this game also and Niao Sun was supposed to have a huge role. As I posted elsewhere I hope this is actually what happens since Shenmue 3 was riddled with bad writing:


Niao Sun is second in line to inherit the Chi You Men fully. Just behind Lan-Di. Tentei has appointed Lan-Di as his most worthy successor, followed by Niao Sun, followed by the member that is more of a tactician, followed by the member that we know nothing about.

the member we know nothing about probably is enigmatic or doesnt give a shit but is a badass. The tactician is probably pretending to support Niao sun's goals since he feels he can manipulate her over Lan-Di. So when Niao sun says now that Lan-Di is out the picture she controls the Chi You Men, I am hoping that this is what was intended with the story. If they cut the Chi You Men to just Lan-Di and her, I will honestly be disgusted with the story.
 
Disgusted is a bit of a harsh word. It would be surprising but wouldn't ruin the story for me as long as it was going to be done skillfully (i. e. told more convincingly than in S3).

S3 imho is a fantastic game in terms of gameplay and atmosphere but a weird game in terms of storytelling and character development.

Anyway, let's see what Yu has in store for us. I'm confident we will get a fourth game.
 
If Yu hasn't already done so, I think he should just re-purpose Master Baihu as The White Tiger leader. Then we would have already been introduced to 3/4 leaders going into Shenmue 4.
 
I always figured Tentai would reward the Chi You Men executive who retrieved the mirrors first with the new role of leader. If Tentai was the boss when Lan Di was a kid, he’s probably pretty old
 
taxalot said:
He's incredibly over-designed and animated for a guy that was meant to have 3 seconds of screen time.
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THIS. This is what has me concerned that the 4 leaders concept has been scrapped. Lan Di’s bodyguards are all custom character models which is a ton of work to do for a joke that could have easily been accomplished by guys in black suits. That combined with the scrapping of the “tactician” and it’s almost certain that who we’re introduced to right now is all there is. If the tactician was supposed to have an important roll then it would have been repurposed, not cut.
 
iknifaugood said:
THIS. This is what has me concerned that the 4 leaders concept has been scrapped. Lan Di’s bodyguards are all custom character models which is a ton of work to do for a joke that could have easily been accomplished by guys in black suits. That combined with the scrapping of the “tactician” and it’s almost certain that who we’re introduced to right now is all there is. If the tactician was supposed to have an important roll then it would have been repurposed, not cut.
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I thought for a moment that the white haired guy was one of the Chi You Men execs, the northern snake tortoise leader since he wears black. I feel this may have been the intention but it was cut
 
Keep in mind that the last town was scrapped. It's likely that these last goons were part of that last town storyline and had a much better role. How important and if white hair guy is the same from the Project Berkley video remains to be guessed, I guess...
 
iknifaugood said:
THIS. This is what has me concerned that the 4 leaders concept has been scrapped. Lan Di’s bodyguards are all custom character models which is a ton of work to do for a joke that could have easily been accomplished by guys in black suits.
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I think the long white hair of that guy is a dead give-away. That kind of hair cut is overly complex to animate. It's as if they had done all the work already for a bigger part, and wanted, at least, to have him play some kind of role symbolically.

You're a studio short on cash who is removing planned content from a game, is this how you design a character for a three second scene ? I think not.
 
taxalot said:
It's as if they had done all the work already for a bigger part, and wanted, at least, to have him play some kind of role symbolically.
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It’s very likely that he was meant to be the tactician who was cut, he even kind of looks like one of the silhouettes from the 4 leaders concept. In order for him to appear in the game he needed to be concept designed, modeled, textured, rigged, and animated; this was all likely done before the decision was made to cut Baisha. If he was important to the story, the story scenes would have been repurposed but, as it stands, Niao Sun declares herself the leader of the Chi You Men after “killing” Lan Di and we have no reason to believe there are 2 other leaders that she doesn’t know about. I like the 4 leaders concept but if it existed it would surely have been mentioned in S3.
 
What boggles my mind is why this series has given so much importance to the dragon and phoenix symbolism but has mentioned absolutely nothing about tigers and tortoises aside from some Lucky Hit stands and Yuanda Zhu's key puzzle?

The dragon and phoenix symbolism is really iconic to this franchise: Dragon and Phoenix mirrors, Lan Di representing a dragon and Niao Sun representing a phoenix, "A dragon shall emerge from the Earth...a phoenix shall descend from above", "Go with the one who holds the Phoenix". Dragons and phoenixes are EVERYWHERE in this series. But tigers and tortoises? Nothing.

If the Tiger and Tortoise leaders have had their roles reduced or been outright cut, I wonder if this was done to keep this series better focused on the rich dragon and phoenix symbolism. It could feel a bit odd if someone randomly says at this stage: "By the way, Yuanda Zhu and Shenhua's ancient poem are both wrong. There are Tortoise and Tiger Mirrors as well! And we forgot to mention them in the ancient prophecy too. Oops!"

IF the Tiger and Tortoise leaders have indeed been cut, could it be because Niao Sun and Lan Di were the only two most interesting characters of the four bosses? Its rather telling that neither the Tiger nor Tortoise leaders were featured in any '90s-2000s promotional material, but Niao Sun who wasn't due to appear until much later in the series already had her face plastered everywhere before Shenmue 1 hit shelves. Surely, if the other two members were just as interesting/fleshed-out, they too would have been featured alongside Niao Sun to further hype up the Chi You Men?

Maybe their removal will allow Yu to better focus on the dragon and phoenix symbolism without having to suddenly introduce tiger and tortoise symbolism this late in the game. So now, we might just have a Dragon leader (Lan Di), a Phoenix leader (Niao Sun) and a Heavenly Emperor (Tentei) that comprise the higher Chi You Men ranks.

Or I'm wrong, and the next two leaders are still planned. Who knows?
 
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I like the idea of the 4 Chi You Men leaders, each representing a cardinal direction and thus a territory. I hope we get Shenmue IV and that the original idea hasn't been dropped or retconned into just 2 leaders. I would also love more on the tiger and tortoise symbols.
 
hyo_razuki said:
What S3 did was basically shitting all over the story of the first two games.

Both Shenhua and Ryo didn't seem to care about the prophecy or Mr Yuan's letter, Ryo acted as if Lan Di being Zhao Sunming's son was news to him, Shenhua in S2 is all about "I care about my daddy so much. I need to find some herbs to rub his back with to cure his cough." In S3, she does not even talk to him after saving him. Ryo talks to him alone. Ryo receives a move scroll with his father's name on it from the Huaxiao Temple priest and doesn't even bother asking the priest about it. And the list goes on and on.
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Actually, when you talk with Shenhua at night in Niaowu Hotel, one time she would mention that she saw many great pharmacies and hospitals on the street which are not available in the village. And then Ryo would say something like I remember you mentioned that your father is in illness so let's send your father to the best hospital in the town after rescuing him. It's a missable conversation. IIRC I triggered the conversation one day before Shenhua's caught.
 
Revan said:
What boggles my mind is why this series has given so much importance to the dragon and phoenix symbolism but has mentioned absolutely nothing about tigers and tortoises aside from some Lucky Hit stands and Yuanda Zhu's key puzzle?

The dragon and phoenix symbolism is really iconic to this franchise: Dragon and Phoenix mirrors, Lan Di representing a dragon and Niao Sun representing a phoenix, "A dragon shall emerge from the Earth...a phoenix shall descend from above", "Go with the one who holds the Phoenix". Dragons and phoenixes are EVERYWHERE in this series. But tigers and tortoises? Nothing.

If the Tiger and Tortoise leaders have had their roles reduced or been outright cut, I wonder if this was done to keep this series better focused on the rich dragon and phoenix symbolism. It could feel a bit odd if someone randomly says at this stage: "By the way, Yuanda Zhu and Shenhua's ancient poem are both wrong. There are Tortoise and Tiger Mirrors as well! And we forgot to mention them in the ancient prophecy too. Oops!"

IF the Tiger and Tortoise leaders have indeed been cut, could it be because Niao Sun and Lan Di were the only two most interesting characters of the four bosses? Its rather telling that neither the Tiger nor Tortoise leaders were featured in any '90s-2000s promotional material, but Niao Sun who wasn't due to appear until much later in the series already had her face plastered everywhere before Shenmue 1 hit shelves. Surely, if the other two members were just as interesting/fleshed-out, they too would have been featured alongside Niao Sun to further hype up the Chi You Men?

Maybe their removal will allow Yu to better focus on the dragon and phoenix symbolism without having to suddenly introduce tiger and tortoise symbolism this late in the game. So now, we might just have a Dragon leader (Lan Di), a Phoenix leader (Niao Sun) and a Heavenly Emperor (Tentei) that comprise the higher Chi You Men ranks.

Or I'm wrong, and the next two leaders are still planned. Who knows?
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wait, you're mixing two set of symbols :) in Chinese culture, the Dragon represents the emperor, while the Phoenix is the empress.
The four animal guardians instead include a bird that looks like a phoenix but it's not the same as the empress' :) The empress' symbol is called Fenghuang (凤凰) and yes, it's a sort of phoenix. The guardian of the South is Zhuque (朱雀), the vermilion bird. These two mythical creatures are often confused, especially in the West, but they're different.
 
Crimson said:
wait, you're mixing two set of symbols :) in Chinese culture, the Dragon represents the emperor, while the Phoenix is the empress.
The four animal guardians instead include a bird that looks like a phoenix but it's not the same as the empress' :) The empress' symbol is called Fenghuang (凤凰) and yes, it's a sort of phoenix. The guardian of the South is Zhuque (朱雀), the vermilion bird. These two mythical creatures are often confused, especially in the West, but they're different.
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Ahh got it thanks! :)
 
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