A Year Of Reflection

jasonorme666

jasonorme666

Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Location
UK
So it's been a year since release, and a year since I completed the game.

53 hours I spent with Shenmue 3, no fast travelling, taking everything in as slow as possible.
I remember telling my wife how much I was enjoying the game, and how it felt like Shenmue.

And then I suddenly wasn't and it didn't.

Progressing the story at a snail's pace, unfortunately, gave me the impression that this was a long game, mainly due to the lack of story progression, the lack of QTE's and the lack of combat. By the time I reached the old castle, it felt like the story was about to really progress and the action was going to ramp up in frequency.
There isn't really anything I can say about the old castle that hasn't already been said.. but my heart kept sinking and by the time the credits rolled I was upset and angry.
I didn't want it to, but it killed my excitement, at that very moment I didn't want a Shenmue 4 unless that whole part of Shenmue 3 was "fixed".

So a year of reflection.
I haven't touched the game again since as I haven't felt the need to. But having just received my Steam key it made me start thinking about the game again.

Turns out, I loved the game up until the old castle, I truly did. And just like Shenmue 1 & 2, I want to talk to people and explore those areas again.
But how the whole last part panned out, made me realise that I don't see Shenmue 3 as canon.
To me the interactions during the whole old castle were incorrect as if they were made by someone who didn't know the series and wasn't really a fan.
I thought to myself, do I want to play Shenmue 3 again, and the answer is yes, but only if that last part doesn't exist.

Shenmue World Kickstarter made me also start thinking if I cared anymore for the series. I did eventually back it, but before, like the Shenmue 3 Kickstarter, I'd have slapped money down instantly no questions asked.

Would I be excited if Shenmue 4 was announced... sure.. but I'd be far more excited if a Shenmue 3 director cut was announced that addressed the issues I and others have with the game. Once Shenmue 3 felt like canon to me, I'd be extremely excited for Shenmue 4.
 
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When all is said and done, this is one of my favorite games this generation, easily.

I hated, HATED, the last 25% of the game. But I can't just disregard how truly amazing the previous 75% was... It's a Shenmue game, through and through. If Shenmue IV would be on the same level as the first 75%, then I'll be satisfied

I really, really hope there is a Shenmue IV :(
 
Nice topic man and a good read :)
 
I really didn't like the stupid fetch quest, the out-of-place comedy and fighting the Kickstarter backers, but I thought that the actual confrontation with Lan Di was amazing. It hit all the right notes, felt truly epic with the castle going up in flames, and when he kicked Ren, oof, I really felt it.
 
Well...according to the new PS4 stats on PS5, i certainly took my time with it.

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I started playing it again yesterday for the first time since Christmas and I was upset it wasn't clicking with me. Just little things like the weird controls, lack of pause button etc, but I was also not in a great mood, so tonight I made sure to get something to eat and chill out before trying again.

This time around, my hope is that I can take my time as there's no need to rush :)
 
bcdcdude said:
I started playing it again yesterday for the first time since Christmas and I was upset it wasn't clicking with me. Just little things like the weird controls, lack of pause button etc, but I was also not in a great mood, so tonight I made sure to get something to eat and chill out before trying again.

This time around, my hope is that I can take my time as there's no need to rush :)
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Keep us updated on your journey my man !
 
I...didn't hate the ending. I feel like I'm the odd one out here but I honestly didn't hate the ending. Yeah, it was rushed and certain aspects of it could have been done better (the reveal of Niao Sun for example) but for the most part, the ending went exactly how I expected it to. With Ryo facing off against Lan Di and losing the first battle. Also, the revelation of a civil war in the Chi You Men left me more interested for Shenmue IV. I want to know more about that plot thread and hopefully IV brings that.

The end of III did lay more threads for IV so I didn't entirely hate it. It did what the other two games did. Kept me interested in finding out more. These games have always been about leaving you with more questions than answers. I think my initial disappointment with III was I expected more answers than questions. But hey, when put into context. This series has always been leaving us with more questions than answers. So I guess III doesn't really break the mold in that sense. Although, I don't know if he can get away with that in a theoretical IV. I do think he has to start answering more questions in IV.

Character development is where I feel the game is a mixed bag. I really wanted more about Iwao's past and I really thought we were gonna get more of that at Bailu. So imagine my disappointment to find less of that then what I hoped for. I wanted more stories about his past to be told. Not necessarily answers, but stories of Iwao and Sunming years of training would have been amazing. Just something more about their past to fill us in until we get to the inevitable answer as to what really happened between them two.

But on the other hand, the nightly conversations between Ryo and Shenhua were magic in this game. I really felt like I got to know Ryo in a different light through those conversations. We got to see a side of him that we haven't seen before as he has been rather tunnel visioned in his quest for revenge. Also, we got to know Shenhua. We got to see Shenhua's childhood home and got to see the parallels between Bailu and Yokosuka. This game served mostly as the getting to know Shenhua chapter I felt and that aspect worked well for me.

I loved hanging out in Bailu. I loved training in Bailu. There was something about Bailu that almost captured that Yokosuka magic for me. Chobu less so. I felt Chobu was probably the least interesting place we've been to so far. Just because I felt Chobu was a little lacking in personality.

The act of playing Shenmue III is still one of my favorite experiences of this gen. They got about as close as they could get in this day and age and it really did feel like more Shenmue to me. The charm of simply hanging out, learning new moves from wise old men, earning money to earn your keep and slowly progressing the story entirely felt like the Shenmue I knew and love and from a gameplay perspective? I thought it was about as close as anyone could get. The magic was still there in that aspect.

Disappointments aside. I still very much like the game. I liked it then. I like it now. Yes, it doesn't quite reach the heights of Shenmue II. And yes, it is slightly disappointing that the plot didn't reveal as much as we might have hoped it would. But for what it was? I liked it. Warts and all. And I still like it a year later. I'm still just as interested in Shenmue IV as I was a year ago.
 
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Really surreal to think it's been a year since the game came out. To make a long story short I went from being extremely hyped at the 2015 announcement, to occasionally thinking about it, to losing my hype after one particular trailer (was the same trailer that has the Epic Game Store announcement in it, there was just something I couldn't put my finger on that killed my hype and it was unrelated to EGS), to managing to regain enough hype after rambling about the games to a friend. I bought the game at launch though my expectations were much lower than they were back in 2015, and that might explain why I ended up mostly enjoying the game.

It's a very flawed game for sure and as I've reflected on the game almost non-stop since I finished it some of the flaws actually stand out to me more than they did back then. The thing I remember vividly is that I actually had some fun with some of the aspects that some people found annoying like the money grinding or chicken catching sections. To me it was one of those cases where when there was a frustrating situation I could tell that Ryo was also somewhat frustrated in the game itself, indicating that the game was trying to make me feel the same way he did in those scenarios. It's not going to be the same for everyone though, to some people these will be things that make it a bad game to them and when I see people who say that they really can't stand the money grind (among other things) they're not entirely wrong on that. The main thing that stood out to me about the money grind in particular was that in Shenmue II I only ever had to do it once after the start of the game and I had enough money to get me through the rest of the game and then some. In Shenmue III I found myself grinding for money many times, though it became a nice little routine for me in Niaowu when combined with the forklift job.

My biggest issue really was the lack of story progression. I actually really liked the bits we did get here but in my leadup to starting the game I was expecting something along the lines of Shenmue II in regards to story. The way I saw it after reaching Niaowu is that I was in for something that felt a bit closer to Shenmue 1 if that makes any sense. I recall enjoying the final section in particular. It's easily the most flawed section in the game by far (I could tell that this was likely remnants of what was to be Baisha/the castle siege talked about during the kickstarter cobbled together to form a final section, I think) but I had a fun time with how things felt like a combination of epic and downright bizarre. For example the fact that there's a pawnshop in the middle of a castle inhabited by Lan Di and the Chiyoumen was so strange to me it was hilarious. Follow that up with the Lan Di encounter itself and my jaw hit the floor (in the best way) after the interactive portion of it was over.

There's a bit more I could say about the way the combat was handled and the story but that might be better suited for a different post once I get some sleep. At the end of the day I don't regret spending the full 60 dollars and I enjoyed it for what it was. I'm very excited at the possibility of another game and I'll gladly be getting it at launch again if it happens. If it doesn't, I'm still glad I got to experience that Shenmue atmosphere and step back into that world one last time. I'm fairly optimistic though! An anime adaptation of the series getting made has to count for something, and if it's as good as I hope it will be I'm very excited to show it to my friends.

As a final note, was I the only person who didn't have too much trouble with the hunger system? I just stocked up on tons of black garlic, made sure to eat before I progressed to the next objective and I was good to go.
 
"As a final note, was I the only person who didn't have too much trouble with the hunger system? I just stocked up on tons of black garlic, made sure to eat before I progressed to the next objective and I was good to go."

No your are not alone :)
I like the stamina/hunger system
I enjoyed look for every kind of food in the game
 
Tortu-genial said:
"As a final note, was I the only person who didn't have too much trouble with the hunger system? I just stocked up on tons of black garlic, made sure to eat before I progressed to the next objective and I was good to go."

No your are not alone :)
I like the stamina/hunger system
I enjoyed look for every kind of food in the game
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Me too. I also thought that it helped the player to take his time playing the game, going slowly and taking care of the world around him.
 
Okay. My reflection after a year of Shenmue 3.

As of now, I still rate the game 6,5/10. But I have yet to play and finish it a second time. I wanted to play Shenmue 1 to 3 before the end of the year, but I don't know if I'll have the time. But soon enough! Maybe once I finish it again with a step back, I'll rate it a little higher.

So, why 6,5 and not more or not less?

Well, like many, I was fairly disappointed about many aspects of the game.

Cons :

- The Story. And when I say the Story, it is not what is told but mostly how it is told. Many people tell that the story didn't advance and didn't say anything. I think it's wrong. The story does advance and you still learn more about Iwao, Ryo, Shenhua, the mirrors, Lan Di and the Chi You Men. But the general presentation did disappoint me alot. It felt even amateurish at times. Which made some scenes that should have been "wow" felt "meh" or "wait, did that just happen" (because I wasn't sure what was going on). It's sad because the game actually had alot to tell, but didn't tell it in a good way. And of course, the ending felt rushed, as they had to finish the game in time and cut Baisha out of it. And of course, the face that the narration felt similar in Niaowu and Bailu didn't help.

- The fighting. I don't think the fighting is catastrophic. But it is underwhelming. I understand what they tried to do with it, and the combat system can be alot of fun. But it is also clunky sometimes. But most importantly. You don't feel it when you hit somebody. It really lacks feeling. I still think they have a really good base to work on for the next game.

- Niaowu. Really didn't like that place. Felt it was the weakest location we've gone to in Shenmue so far. Felt like poor man's Hong Kong. And also, it felt kind of out of place? I mean, China in the 80s wasn't that much developed. Only a few places had the chance to be really developed. And Guilin wasn't really a place that should have been such advanced. It was too fancy and too clean for what it should have been. Bailu also had some kind of anachronism, with a small arcade and gashapons, but they still succeed to make the feeling right.

- QTEs. A bit too hard, and was disappointed that at the first mistake, you would lose the QTE. I liked it in the previous Shenmue where you could fail 1 or 2 times and the QTE continued.

- Unfinished. I could clearly feel that the game was unfinished. Especially in Niaowu. In Bailu everything went just fine (except flaws mentioned before), but in Niaowu, you could feel that alot of work was still to be done. Especially at the end.

Pros :

- Shenmue is back! Flaws and all, even if you really didn't like the game even if you hated it, we're in the best place Shenmue-wise we've been in for at least 15 years, you have to admit that. I remember a few years ago, alot of us kinda gave up on Shenmue. We thought that it was over. Now Shenmue 3 is real (flawed and low budget, but real godamit!!!), we have an anime coming, we've had Shenmue 1&2 HD released and subbed in many languages, SEGA is acknowledging the existence of the series again, merch is being released, we have a fan magazine that has just been kickstarted successfully super quickly and we have a lot of chances to see Shenmue 4 coming for real. All of that thanks to Shenmue 3! That is a big pro!

- Bailu. Just perfect place. The design, the atmosphere, the feeling. Just perfect. It was a gorgeous place to be in.

- Graphics. Gorgeous. Lot of details everywhere, the light work was totally on point. They really outdid themselves for the budget they had.

- Shenhua and Ryo's relation. Honestly, in Bailu, when you came home at night and talked to Shenhua for hours, learned alot about both Ryo and Shenhua's life, and you could feel them getting closer to one another as time went on. It was organic, moving, touching, just right. It might have been the strongest point for me in Shenmue 3. Sadly it wasn't there anymore in Niaowu (hence why I didn't like this place).

- The Jobs. I really like that you had more ways to earn money now. Whether it was choosing woods, fishing, herbs, selling objects etc... It made it still mundane as Shenmue should be, but with more variety to this mundanity. I didn't feel the paywall at all : I had a routine every day : Wake up, go train/spar/fight, work (doesn't matter which job) until noon. At noon, eat. Then spend the afternoon until 4 or 5 to move the story. At 4 or 5 stop, and go play games, either for fun, for training (excite QTE to train the QTEs) or money (playing lucky hit, go buy items, sell them back, get rich, no paywall). I think this is how you are supposed to play. Take your time, ingest the place, the atmosphere and the possibilities and you'll never get stuck by a paywall because you were going too fast.

- Circular money. I really like that this time around, everything you do has a utility. Every object, every items as a purpose. You don't just go to play at the arcade to let time flies because you have nothing else to do. I mean you can still do it. But it brings you alot as well.

- Soundtrack. Some music is clearly out of place. But the music is still beautiful. And some of the new tracks are just... Wow <3

- It's Shenmue. No compromise. Yu Suzuki didn't try to appeal to modern gaming in the mentality. He didn't try to give you instant gratification and fast paced action brawler. He stayed true to Shenmue style, even though he received criticism from it.

Conclusion :

Shenmue 3 is deeply flawed yes. It is clearly unfinished. Nonetheless, it is one of the most marking experience of the generation for me. Maybe because I'm a huge fan of the licence, yes. But marking because you could feel this game was made out of love and not out of "I want money!". He didn't try to alter his visions to appeal to the masses. But kept Shenmue 3 a Shenmue game, and tried the hardest to do so. And I'm more and more a fan of games that are deeply flawed but where you can feel that at least it was human being that made the game. That he made it with love and passion.

In the end, the biggest problem with this game is that Yu Suzuki was too ambitious and saw things too big. It is one of his biggest character trait. He was always like that. But when he was at Sega, he could afford to do so, because he was very important there and had access to alot of money. Here he tried to do and achieve to much with so little money and resources.

I think, the whole should have been in Bailu only. That would have let them the time to polish the presentation, narration, combat system and tell you alot more about Iwao or the mirrors.

Still, they did a good job with what they had and have now a really good base to work on for the next one. Sadly many people are really unfair with this game, because they compare it too much with AAA games.

I can't wait to have the confirmation of Shenmue 4, and he can count on my never-ending support.
 
I have to agree that Niaowu felt like the first underwhelming location in Shenmue so far: Yokosuka was an amazing introduction to the open world with its cosy, lived in feeling, Hong Kong was a huge sprawling city that made Ryo’s hometown look tiny, Kowloon was action-packed, The walk to Bailu Village was relaxing and magical, Bailu Village itself is an important location, even if we were hoping for it to reveal more lore, while Niaowu...is just a place Ryo has to go to to find Shenhua’s dad. The fact that Niaowu is apparently a repurposed version of a scrapped location between Kowloon and Ryo’s journey to Bailu probably adds to this feeling as well, I’m sure it’s only there because Yu wanted a traditional city location in S3. Having said that, I enjoyed the game despite its flaws and am tempted to play through again, even though I’ve already played through twice and got the Platinum trophy 😛
 
So since my last post here, I've realised that I have been getting much joy out of it since. It might be because with the 2nd playthrough I don't have to worry about food or training as much, so it plays very much like the first two games! I thought i'd finish off the Bailu Chan hunts and admit I had to use Youtube for the final 11 I couldn't find (some of them are very cruel!)

I think I agree with many people here in that the nightly chats with Shenhua are wonderful and might be my favourite thing about the game. I never really liked the fighting system in any of the games, so in a way, using the triggers to choose a pre-set of moves and using the shortcuts help me greatly. That said, I do enjoy the sparring. I think when i'm fighting, I don't think about the different move sets, so I am grateful that an option is available for those who don't like fighting much.

I try to limit gameplay to 2 in-game days a time and I think i'm getting much more out of it this time :)
 
Just want to say that I really enjoyed reading some of the replies to his topic.

Personally I agree with many of them, although I initially loved playing thorugh the game, midway through Niawu I started to feel I was just going around in circles and I wasn’t experiencing a Shenmue experience anymore, so I decided to move forward with the story and then replay the side stuff on a second playthrough. From that point on until the final act, the game got so bad that ruined my whole experience and one year later I still have bad taste in my mouth.

A proof of that is that for many years, I would jump with joy with hearing about anything Shenmue related in some shape or form from an unknown site in the internet and I now have additional official shenmue DLC content available that I have not even bothered to download.

I also still have trouble with people whose opinion and perception is that the story and the writing was not that great because of budget. Budget has absolutely nothing to do with this. Bad writing is bad writing. Period. An old man by the fire can tell a good story, he doesn’t need money to do so.

What could have gone wring in terms of limited budget, they actually exceled such as the mini-games, environment and side missions, and personally I actually enjoyed the fighting system.



Coming back to the story and the writing, the vast majority of newly introduced characters were so uninteresting and boring that I don’t even remember their names (such as the two main villains, the broom girl and the fat man from the temple) despite them being very major characters to the overall plot. To this day I still remember who kurita-san, Tamura-san, Saijo-San and many others from Shenmue 1. Not just who they were, I remember their voice, their personalities and random details about them and how they related with Ryo. The fantastic thing about it, is that they are such minor characters from the first game that you can possibly not even talk to during the whole game in order to finish it.



This is the type of quality that Shenmue 3 had to live up to. It didn’t. Proof of that is that many people who have been fans for (literally) half their life’s unfortunately feel the same way I do.



I guess the only way I will be hyped for Shenmue 4 would be if they somehow acknowledge that the writing and character development this be subject to massive improvement.
 
bellator said:
Just want to say that I really enjoyed reading some of the replies to his topic.

Personally I agree with many of them, although I initially loved playing thorugh the game, midway through Niawu I started to feel I was just going around in circles and I wasn’t experiencing a Shenmue experience anymore, so I decided to move forward with the story and then replay the side stuff on a second playthrough. From that point on until the final act, the game got so bad that ruined my whole experience and one year later I still have bad taste in my mouth.

A proof of that is that for many years, I would jump with joy with hearing about anything Shenmue related in some shape or form from an unknown site in the internet and I now have additional official shenmue DLC content available that I have not even bothered to download.

I also still have trouble with people whose opinion and perception is that the story and the writing was not that great because of budget. Budget has absolutely nothing to do with this. Bad writing is bad writing. Period. An old man by the fire can tell a good story, he doesn’t need money to do so.

What could have gone wring in terms of limited budget, they actually exceled such as the mini-games, environment and side missions, and personally I actually enjoyed the fighting system.



Coming back to the story and the writing, the vast majority of newly introduced characters were so uninteresting and boring that I don’t even remember their names (such as the two main villains, the broom girl and the fat man from the temple) despite them being very major characters to the overall plot. To this day I still remember who kurita-san, Tamura-san, Saijo-San and many others from Shenmue 1. Not just who they were, I remember their voice, their personalities and random details about them and how they related with Ryo. The fantastic thing about it, is that they are such minor characters from the first game that you can possibly not even talk to during the whole game in order to finish it.



This is the type of quality that Shenmue 3 had to live up to. It didn’t. Proof of that is that many people who have been fans for (literally) half their life’s unfortunately feel the same way I do.



I guess the only way I will be hyped for Shenmue 4 would be if they somehow acknowledge that the writing and character development this be subject to massive improvement.
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You make several fair points.

What I would say is, while writing is definitely a key factor, the development time is also one.

We interviewed Ryan Payton and he talks about how much went into what aspects of the game, albeit loosely.


Now we can 100% query whether so much time should have been spent on mini-games, but I do wonder how much time was actually spent on them if a large bulk of the time was to build the game systems?

Certainly food for thought :)
 
bellator said:
I also still have trouble with people whose opinion and perception is that the story and the writing was not that great because of budget. Budget has absolutely nothing to do with this. Bad writing is bad writing. Period. An old man by the fire can tell a good story, he doesn’t need money to do so.
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While I agree with you for what you wrote. I too found that the Story was lacking in consistency and hope for ameliorations for future installments, making a good stroy also takes budget, and Shenmue 3 suffered from it.

Let me explain my point of view : The story had alot of content cut from it because of the budget constraint. For example, Shenmue 3 was supposed to have a third location, Baisha, which was supposed to be the most important part for Shenmue 3 (dixit Yu Suzuki) (also, we've seen a bit of Baisha in the behind the scene of Shenmue 3 dev videos), so you can be sure that the very ending at the old castle was supposed to be at Baisha. So yeah, when your budget can't allow you to develop everything you need to tell your story, your story will be damaged.

Also, the worst part of Shenmue 3 for me is the staging/presentation. While I found the story was clearly lacking, especially in Niaowu, like you said, I still find that it did bring some good points. But the problem is that the presentation and staging was, at times horrendous, felt amateurish, and completely killed some moments in the story who were supposed to be "wow". And that is completely budget related.

Where I agree with you, also, is that having a low budget shouldn't be an excuse for every mistake that were made. But yeah, I still really enjoyed Shenmue 3, and I am waiting for Shenmue 4 impatiently, despite the horrendous presentation.

But from what I heard, Yu Suzuki acknowledges the various problems the game has, and has promised to correct it for Shenmue 4.
 
spud1897 said:
You make several fair points.

What I would say is, while writing is definitely a key factor, the development time is also one.

We interviewed Ryan Payton and he talks about how much went into what aspects of the game, albeit loosely.


Now we can 100% query whether so much time should have been spent on mini-games, but I do wonder how much time was actually spent on them if a large bulk of the time was to build the game systems?

Certainly food for thought :)
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You made me remember that I haven't listen to this interview yet ! Haha
 
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