Bailu discussion.

Thomasina

Thomasina

Joined
Jun 11, 2019
I think this is the first topic I've made here. I found Bailu to be severely lacking, disconnected, and disappointing. I'd like to talk about my issues with Bailu expectations versus reality, what I thought Bailu should have been, and obviously you can talk about what you liked in Bailu as well.
 
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This tweet actually triggered my inclination to make this topic. I've wanted to talk about Bailu for a long time.


I never bothered with any of the different outfits in S3. I didn't unlock this suit and I have no idea what does unlock it, so maybe someone who used it could fill me in (is it bought through a store?).

I know that outfit is from early concept art though. I always thought that when Ryo would don thought outfit it would be attained from someone. My line of thinking was that it would come from training under someone, or training at a school. That's what I imagined for Bailu, is Ryo would train under someone, rather than learning one move from someone who isn't really involved in martial arts any more.

As Bailu is a martial arts village, it didn't connect with me that you don't train with anyone routinely. I thought maybe Ryo could join a school rather than doing his own random, unguided training mini-games. In fact, you could relate it to the first game, like getting a job at the pier. Going to work every day becomes your daily routine. What if you joined a school under a specific martial artist, and instead of having to worry about doing menial jobs to earn money in Bailu (because you're living with Shenhua anyway), what if instead you committed yourself to daily training at a school? I think that would be a lot more interesting and connected/intertwined, than having Bailu as just another place you visit. I thought Ryo should have been intertwined into Bailu's "culture" of martial arts.

To me, I don't understand why Iwao was there to begin with, as well as Lan Di's father, Sunming Zhao. Who did they train under? Did you they go there to attend a school? What drew them there to train and develop their martial arts?

I remember seeing earlier images where Bailu looked more like a training grounds for martial artists, but in the final game it was just little kids training martial arts as if you were to walk by your local Taekwon-do school.

To me that outfit, in my mind, represents commitment to training and some form of progress under someone. Looks like in the game it's there either for fan service or just the fun of changing clothes.

The more I think about Bailu, the more disconnected everything seems.
 
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This is more of a quick post but I like the topic choice.

Postitive:
More NPC development (check the PRS Blog on Bailu)
Beautiful environments
Rustic, community feel
Some nice lore on the mirrors and Iwao's history.
Sparring at the school.
The atmosphere is among the most relaxing in the series.

Negative
Seemed more modern than I'd anticipated.
Not enough mirrors/Iwao training there.
Invisible walls
Not enough on the history of village.

I see what you're saying re the martial artists. I think Shenhua says that they used to have people from all over train there but it since stopped. I'd like to have known why, apart from the masters being older.
 
Well, maybe this is where the lack of a larger budget comes in again.
When you have a limited budget, the need to put togather a team with competence that can create good results, and keep an effective workflow, then there's likely times where you have to use co-created parts that is "good enough", but not ideal.
Yu can't do it all by himself. It's all about having the right people that can understand his vision as clear as he can describe it to them, and then act upon it the best they can.

The need for fan service sure made at least parts of Bailu look a little bit off. The first part that I can think off is where you enter the village where you see a kung fu-guy training on the poles - day in and out, and right next to him you have lucky hit, the bucket game and a hairy "disney character" doing martial arts with the kids. Not far away form there you have like a ´restaurant´ with capsule toys right next to it. It doesn't melt togather that well and may have ruined the feel of the environment -for those who care. At least in that area. But other parts are better designed and more thought out.

But you know what, I see it for what it is. Just one room with a few lucky hit games, capsule toys and stuff like that would be enough for me. The gaming room in Panda Market could have been skipped and used only in Niaowu.
But in the end I don't care so much.

There is much that can be said. But what I look forward to is the fact that we all can learn from mistakes.
What works - works, and what doesn't - doesn't work. I think Yu is aware of most of the critique.

I will say as I always do that in terms of assets the next game will have more potential of being a better Shenmue than the third.

This is how I see it: Shenmue III was the training. Shenmue IV will be the tough ´test´. Shenmue V will be the ´final fight´.
 
I have only played through Shenmue 3 once fully, but the Bailu section was my favourite part of the game. I thought it largely captured a lot of essence if the original games, especially Chapter 1.

I have to confess the map was a lot larger than I ever expected and it contained a fair amount of variety with Sunflower Grove, Abandoned Temple and Tertiary Springs amongst other locations. I loved the slow decent from Shenhua’s house to Martiall Hall, performing my morning training regime before I would cross the Verdant bridge and continue my investigation. I vividly recall running back to her house, with there being no artificial light as you rely solely on the moonlight and the colourful meadows to guide you, hoping to be back in time to have evening conversation with Shenhua. It took me back to fond memories running and crisscrossing the streets of Yamanose in the dead of the night trying to get home to the Hazuki household before Ine-san told me off!

I’ve made mention of this before but I really loved the whole training segment with Mr. Sun culminating with him teaching you the Body Check move. The ending cinematic of the chapter is also beautiful, it’s just a shame we couldn’t say goodbye to the resident ala Shenmue or in Hong Kong.

For me the two biggest missed opportunities stem from two issues as I see it-

Affinity system: In the final game the system outside a couple of superfluous touches seems to be largely omitted. It’s once aspect Suzuki spoke about in the beginning of concept and development and I think it could have been a really unique touch. Imagine performing tasks or side quests for certain NPC’s around Bailu and that rewarded the player with move scrolls, food items to increase stamina and other benefits, similar to how Yakuza Judgement had friendship meter

Rural setting This could have been more interwoven into the rural setting. While I don’t begrudge Suzuki since the scope of the game and development was changed multiple times, I do wish in retrospect he had leaned more into the rural setting with tasks and activities. It’s been pointed out but I could have waited until Niaowu until we saw appearance of arcades. I mean they partially did it with fishing and wood chopping, but it would have been great to see Shenhua out in natural environment with animals. I vaguely recall Suzuki talking about a sidequest involving a deer and those are sort of things the game could have benefited from before entering more urban and populous location.

All in all it still was the highlight for me. The games environments are still beautiful-

 
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I like @Thomasina's idea about martial arts training during your stay in the village. Though instead of a school, I would've had Ryo train under Master Feng similar to Xiuying in Shenmue II. From a narrative standpoint, this would make perfect sense as Ryo would be following in the footsteps of his father.

I wouldn't have gotten rid of the minigames but had them recontextualized to fit within the setting. Minigames like hunting, embroidery, making medicine, cooking, etc would feel more natural. In fact, this could be part of Ryo's training under Master Feng. When the other villagers notice Ryo's efforts his relationship with them will grow. As your bond grows deeper, you're rewarded with more answers about the mirrors, prophecy, Iwao's history, and so on. All while dealing with the central conflict of Yuan's disappearance.

That being said, I enjoyed my conversations with Shenhua. I enjoyed the vast amount of detail Bailu had. I enjoyed the final scene in Bailu before departing for Niaowu. I enjoyed the rural atmosphere so much that sometimes I would turn off the music just to listen to the sounds of nature.

In the end, I believe that Bailu Village's potential was squandered. To me, the village represented a time for Ryo to truly contemplate and heal. If the entirety of Shenmue III took place here I wouldn't have minded. Bailu Village is absolutely beautiful and gives off a serene aura.
 
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The more I think about it, I found Bailu to be really bad narrative-wise. Shenmue 2’s ending signified that Ryo and Shenhua’s lives took a new meaning, they didn’t know of their destiny until that very moment but deep down..it was as if they always knew they were brought together by fate. In short, They learned that their journey is the prophecy.

I was excited to see how they’d take this all in and reflect on it in Shenmue 3 before the game came out and I was disappointed when they barely touched on it in the main story.

I also hate that Shenhua kind of just dismisses her father’s letter and it’s never really elaborated on afterwards. Are they not going to question how yuan knew Ryo had the Phoenix mirror? Are they not going to question how Yuan knew of Ryo’s arrival days before it happened? Are they not going to question how he knew he’d be kidnapped? What makes this worse is that they don’t even ask yuan these dying questions fans had when you meet him at the end of the game and then he just disappears. Are these things ever going to get proper answers? Will we see Yuan again? if these things don’t get answers it’ll create a gaping plot hole in the saga as a whole.

Was also not a fan of how they retconned the sword of seven stars into a dagger. I understand why they did it (because they made changes to S2’s ending believing it’d be the last game) but I would’ve preferred if they added a small explanation behind why it began to float even if it was very minor. Since it was established in canon to have something behind it, might as well give it a pay off considering the hype and speculation around it.

I also would’ve liked to learn more about Bailu and it’s culture/tradition. Where does the poem/prophecy originate from since it comes from Bailu?

what is phantom river stone? Why is it important for the mirrors to be made out of this specific stone? It’s unlikely that we will revisit Bailu so I’m worried these things won’t get proper answers.

And if the mirrors are only 70 years old then why did the qing dynasty fall a year after the mirrors were made if the emperor had the power to revive it? why were the mirrors buried if they only lasted for 1 year? in the previous games it’s implied they were buried because emperors fought generations over them which resulted in an endless cycle of violence but now we know the mirrors aren’t that old. it’s weird to think they would be buried shortly after they were made.

Then my final big issue is the fact that you don’t need both of the mirrors to find the treasure anymore because there was a map inside of bailu’s bell tower the whole time.

These are just my opinions though and maybe a few or even all of my issues will be rectified later on when we get more information in future games.
 
Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
n the end, I believe that Bailu Village's potential was squandered. To me, the village represented a time for Ryo to truly contemplate and heal. If the entirety of Shenmue III took place here I wouldn't have minded.
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I agree. I think Bailu should have been a place to grow, to focus inward, and in a sense contribute to the community and almost become part of it. I don't know if I'm expressing that correctly, but running around doing jobs doesn't feel right. It would have felt more appropriate to not have an economy system there, but instead become part of the daily life there in a more organic manner.

I also feel like there's a lot more story to uncover there. How much of it was passed over to move on to Niaowou? Now that Ryo has moved on, I can't help but feel like we missed out on a ton of information that should have been uncovered in Bailu. More connections and intertwining.

The arcade does seem out of place, but I think they could have kept the arcade but rolled it back significantly. Maybe only include something like QTE Title, and present it in a way like some of the arcade games in Shenmue 2, where it's almost like they are sacred and cherished, with the spot light shining down on it, lol. A full arcade was too much and breaks down the idea of a remote village.
 
I felt Bailu Village was the stronger of t he 2 locations (3 if you deem the Fortress Separate I guess). I think the main benefit it has is that Niaowu has a lot of repetitive structure from Bailu - Learning the Move to beat the boss, Ducks etc.

There's a lot I still like about Bailu, I think the environment is more detailed, purely due to the detail in the gress, flowers and nature.

Structure wise it was also more interesting, I liked hearing about old tales like of the Bridge. Also I felt leaving Shenhua's House had a similiar structure to Shenmue 1 where you walk a pathway towards the main village area. I would often visit the training dojo before heading into the village to chop wood and continue with other tasks.

I think there was a great set-up to explore Iwao's time there, we spoke to Grandmaster Feng whom knew of him - I wanted to place him aside and ask him everything he knew. How great would it be to train with him (You can spar I guess) and each time you do you learn more of Iwao's History - then after 5 sessions after the story you learn a move or receive a memento of his. Feng was the perfect person to present this with and I wish more detail was added there.

There is also that moment you meet the monk at a temple who mentions Iwao too and potentially Ryo's mother & that's it...

Plotwise, I still think finding Shenhua's father should have ended within Bailu Village. Extending it to Niaowu really made it drag on. Plus I never found the incentive to go to Niaowu to be that strong. I would have preferred to have rescued him in Bailu then after a discussion and having learnt more than we did at the end of Shenmue 3 (I felt his offering of information was ridiculously lacking) the cavern sculptures still not having any real explanation). I really feel information from him should have revealed an important lead which gives Niaowu more motive.

Just looking at the last few scenes of Bailu again, it mentions about a hidden cavern/passage in Niaowu but as the player we never experience that and then on the ending we see them already on the Mountain path... there's just a really big disconnect between them 3 locations.
 
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I really enjoyed Bailu. I naturally entered a daily routine and was taken with the vibe and environment of the place. I enjoyed it much more than Niaowu, maybe even more than Yokosuka harbour and Aberdeen. There was just enough intrigue to keep me going story-wise, and I always looked forward to discovering a new area of the map, talking to random NPCs, chatting with Shenhua at the end of the day etc. That feeling of checking things off my daily task list was probably the best it has ever been in the series.

It wasn't perfect, of course. The timed/windowed side quests actually really annoyed me, especially when it came time to leave Bailu and I had the option to stay...yet there was no reason to because the game killed all the side quests by that point.

And the first part of the thug investigation, despite having some cool moments, made Ryo seem really dumb...I mean, it shouldn't take multiple ransackings and a literal list of stonemasons to figure out who these guys are targeting.

I thought we got a decent amount of backstory in Bailu in relation to the origin of the mirrors. We were never going to learn the "secret" of the mirrors in S3, but we learned who made them, when they were made, and who they were made for. Yes, it was frustrating that we didn't get more time with Yuan at the end, explaining his letter and the carving, but I'm almost certain this is coming at the beginning of IV. That doesn't excuse S3's ending; the ending is what it is -- extremely rushed with big, obvious chunks missing.

Ultimately, S3 is a game that sits in the middle of the series (or just before the middle, as was planned anyway) and, as such, was never going to answer all the questions we had going in. To me, what we got in Bailu regarding the mirrors and Iwao felt like a great setup, and I went into Niaowu expecting the same type of slow but interesting trickle of information to continue...unfortunately that wasn't the case, and I can't help but feel it's because a whole other environment was cut from the game, story bits and all.
 
I agree the technology and amount of mini games is not what I expected out of Bailu, but I did like the general slow vibe of the town and think it generally looks pretty great. I wish the scenarios would've been more interesting and engaging. Sequences where you train with a master, whether through cutscenes or playable QTEs, would've been preferable to the repetitive wooden dummy training and sparring. I've used RDR2's epilogue as a comparison point before, but I think that sort of experience would've suited Shenmue 3 better than what we got. At first you arrive on a farm and work as a farmhand, and then things start to open up.

I also think the town could've used some memorable moments with Shenhua beyond the nightly conversations.

Niaowu is where Shenmue 3 lost me.
 
For me Bailu was the superior part of the game. That's where most of the world building and interesting parts of the story occur. In addition the relationships to all the villagers reminded me of the small town feeling of Yokosuka.

You make fair points though. I just didn't mind the issues of Shenmue 3 as much in Bailu village. The Niaowu arc is what brings the game's quality down despite the fact that I genuinely enjoy Shenmue 3.
 
I'm curious to see if the Anime will touch upon Bailu at all in the future, and how it will be represented. Will it follow Shenmue 3, or will it be re-imagined?

Obviously I'm hoping for the latter.
 
Bailu is the best part of Shenmue 3 for sure. It's far from perfect but it is so rich and small details and interesting people like the old guy and his tales about save the village and all girls who wanted to marry him.
The boy needs money to save his father
Man... lots of god stories

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I also love Niaowu, it's a totally mundane experience, basically like Akihabara and Las Vegas had a baby. Rose Garden is the best part for shure

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Positives:
Awesome environments.

I liked the martial hall and some of the characters like Su, Sun (the drunkard) and the Kung Fu girl (Wei Zhen or something like that, iirc).

Negatives:
A "village world famous for martial arts" can't drive out Yanlang and two dipshits. There's two "grandmasters" fucking about in the village while there's a hostage situation going on for days, yet none of them gives a fuck and they leave to some Japanese tourist kid.

This is were Sunming and Iwao trained in the 1960s and you meet the so-called "Grandmaster" they trained under and yet you learn absolutely fucking nothing about Sunming and Iwao's relationship or what transpired in the days or weeks leading up to Sunming's death.

The Shenhua night time conversations. While they did flesh out both main characters to a certain extent, I did find them very underwhelming overall. They avoided the most important topics like the Prophecy or Old Yuan's letter or Iwao's death and the faces game just added to the overall shallowness.

The Willy Wonka Pure Imagination song playing over and over.

The "Travellers Song" which gets played to Ryo the moment he first sets foot in HK at Aberdeen harbor. You had like 800 unused tracks to choose from, yet this is where you choose to recycle one of S2's most iconic tracks.
 
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The map is much bigger than I expected it to be and the environments are beautiful. I didn't understand why everything seemed so modern especially after Shenhua's descriptions from the end of Shenmue 2. The lack of lore was also somewhat astounding. In the weeks leading up to release, Yu said we'd find out what happened when Iwao was in Bailu at the end of that segment. That flat out didn't happen. The village elders knew virtually nothing about the mirrors. Why did the Verdant bridge become a line of investigation anyway? Why were the "ancient mirrors" actually less than 100 years old? Don't even get me started on the scroll. Was finding that scroll seriously the point of the Swo- I mean, Dagger of Seven Stars? The scroll that pointed Ryo to Niaowu even though there was absolutely nothing in Niaowu related to the plot, other than an abandoned castle the ChiYouMen hang out at for no reason.

Perhaps most frustrating of all was the complete lack of discussion on the Shenmue tree. The jaw dropping reveal of Shenmue 2 ultimately meant nothing. Even if it turned out the Tree itself wasn't important but more of a symbol, no effort was made to even acknowledge its symbolism. Oh and there's another smaller Shenmue tree that Ryo somehow knew his dad punched twenty years ago. But as a player we only confirm it's also a Shenmue tree by a casual mention in Ryo's notebook. Woof.

Erasing the tapestry of Luoyang and remodeling Shenhua's house was an odd recon as well. I did enjoy the conversations with Shenhua at night even though they were a little clunky and repetitive at times. There were some charming moments to be had for sure but it fell flat.
 
I think it was confirmed the notebook referring to the tree at Ternary Spring as a Shenmue tree was a translation error, wasn’t it?
 
I liked Bailu but I agree with the sentiment that it feels a bit narratively disconnected from expectations. Meaning, it didn't feel like an ancient secluded village built upon martial arts training and philosophy, and felt a bit too modern. And of course, there were a ton of story elements that we wanted but never got.

I would have loved to see the original Bailu village if Shenmue 3 continued as initially planned. I do wonder if some of the "modernization" of Bailu was due to the 18 year layoff between releases. Perhaps Yu Suzuki felt that he wanted to add more of the minigames and arcades as a bit of fan service while appealing to newcomers? Maybe he felt that the original Bailu would be a hard sell to newcomers?
 
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