Best way to play the original games: emulation or remaster?

[tvshtr]

As I said I'm not going to get into dick measuring contest. Your retroarch flycast core is out of date, same with examples, which just legitimized my initial assumption. You can get recent versions here libretro buildbot
The hair/eye etc. glitches were resolved long time ago [ be sure to enable per-pixel sorting, it's not enabled by default out of care for super low end stuff like retro pie ]
Cpu usage is negligible even with everything maxed out, partly due to switch to vulkan very recently
You also didn't enable widescreen which flycast auto-applies. Maybe you're that kind of person which never touches the defaults, and that's fine but some people will and the end results/performance will differ

I'm fine with people paying for the ease of use, I'm not trying to bash redream in any form. Just straightening some facts about current state of flycast and what it can really do.


[ I won't even get into the forks thing, there are numerous famous examples of forks vastly surpassing the original, by any measure and then taking its place, it seems that you don't know much about this field or playing ignorant for the sake of argument ]

 

[TheFoolontheHill]

Thanks for all the responses. It looks like there aren't many mods for shenmue 2 yet which would tip the balance towards the remasters.

 

[Ren]

As I said I'm not going to get into dick measuring contest. Your retroarch flycast core is out of date, same with examples, which just legitimized my initial assumption. You can get recent versions here libretro buildbot
The hair/eye etc. glitches were resolved long time ago [ be sure to enable per-pixel sorting, it's not enabled by default out of care for super low end stuff like retro pie ]
Cpu usage is negligible even with everything maxed out, partly due to switch to vulkan very recently
You also didn't enable widescreen which flycast auto-applies. Maybe you're that kind of person which never touches the defaults, and that's fine but some people will and the end results/performance will differ

I'm fine with people paying for the ease of use, I'm not trying to bash redream in any form. Just straightening some facts about current state of flycast and what it can really do.


[ I won't even get into the forks thing, there are numerous famous examples of forks vastly surpassing the original, by any measure and then taking its place, it seems that you don't know much about this field or playing ignorant for the sake of argument ]

1) I tested flycast and redream in around November 20. So it was not a long time ago just 4-5weeks ago.
This is an issue that goes all the way down to NullDC that has not been able to fixed yet. Even through I will update and test it out.
2) I tried both Per-pixel and per-triangle and both had same issue.
3) Did a test today and still same issue it has none has been fixed.

4) As stable fps does matter. In Redream is stable almost always at max, while in Flycast it's not.
5) I have deal with settings and even spend hours on Demul to try get best results. With Redream you don't have to do this it just works without any issue. Redream emulation is so good it doesn't even feel like an emulator.
6) Redream had vulkan support ages ago.
7) Redream also auto widescreen and works perfect without the needs of hacks.
8) Having to "deal" with settings to get a decent playthrough with any machine you use is terrible design. This is not a pro at all.
Having an emulator that does the adjustment for you and perfectly like redream is a huge Pro and makes it less "emulator".
9) Redream is free, unless you pay for premium which is just miserly $5 one time fee. Even though is not a huge noticeable difference.

10) The problem with fork is they also keep problems that the original project had. You can clearly see here that Flycast has Same exact issues NullDC/Reicast had. This has not been fixed not even with latest update. While Demul and Redream has no graphical issues.

11) About knowing about this field I am 100% confident I know more about you.
Not only I am a developer myself, I follow the Emulator community very closely, especially Dreamcast.
Not only do I frequent Reddit emulator, I am part of Retroarch and Redream discord channels. As well know more about the people working in these emulators.
Have you even used Redream before?
Have you done testing each emulator side by side? Because I had.

I don't have much fate in flycast future since
1)Flyinghead backstabbed Reicast/NullDc creator. https://github.com/reicast/reicast-emulator
This is why Reicast has not been worked since August 30. This betrayal damaged the dreamcast emulator community.

2)Flyinghead is just a junior that copy paste code from other projects, he is not in same category as inolen and skmp. He copy-pasted code from Redream old codebase. Later gave credits when he got caught.
That is why many features of Redream like needing no Bios are in Flycast.
I challenge you to do a test yourself and show me results. Use Redream, Reicast, Flycast and Demul side-by-side.
and show me screenshots and video. My opinion is based on facts show me actual proof. (videos, screenshots etc)

 

[sbkodama]

1) I tested flycast and redream in around November 20. So it was not a long time ago just 4-5weeks ago.
This is an issue that goes all the way down to NullDC that has not been able to fixed yet. Even through I will update and test it out.

I use the master chen nulldc version and I have issue with border of transparency texture and a weird shadow for the jacket, but I don't have the eyes issue you talk about.

 

[Ren]

I use the master chen nulldc version and I have issue with border of transparency texture and a weird shadow for the jacket, but I don't have the eyes issue you talk about.

You should not use NullDC anymore. Not Even Master Chen version. Master Chan was just a "fix" Because shenmue came with some problems in NullDc.
https://redream.io/download
Just download and set the folder where you put the game files. No need to set up drivers, bios or any of that crap.
It basically plays and plug. As well Redream is highly performance unlike Demul which would cause slowdowns if your pc was not powerful enough.

 

[sbkodama]

You should not use NullDC anymore. Not Even Master Chen version. Master Chan was just a "fix" Because shenmue came with some problems in NullDc.
https://redream.io/download
Just download and set the folder where you put the game files. No need to set up drivers, bios or any of that crap.
It basically plays and plug. As well Redream is highly performance unlike Demul which would cause slowdowns if your pc was not powerful enough.

I tried others emulator but none has a graphical plugin that don't display the hud and it's a must have to me.
I would like to play the hd re release if it had a mod for this but it don't, on top of having an absurd configuration requirement.

 

[tvshtr]

About knowing about this field I am 100% confident I know more about you.

Yet, clearly you don't. Redream never had Vulkan renderer, still doesn't, check your facts.
You didn't even read what I wrote as I stated clearly that I use them all [ emulators ]. Thus I won't bother responding any longer to you.
Below are attached screenshots from flycast which clearly don't have glitches you're showing, so stop peddling BS.

[ Pro tip; really knowledgeable people never do or have to defend their knowledge ]

 

[wowbobwow]

I played through 1 on PS4 with very little issue. Gave 2 a spin and the issues rendering the MIDI music made me just out my Dreamcast to replay 2 on there.

1 seems fine on HD. 2, play on DC or emulate it.

 

[Yokosuka]

I hate the new QTE user interface but yeah, the remaster is a no brainer to me.

 

[gamesbloke]

My argument with emulation/remasters generally is always about authenticity as a whole.

The remasters are not truly authentic to the originals in my opinion. The differences are small but they exist. Emulation only really works if you have a powerful rig otherwise the experience is varied at best. The legit DC originals have modest VMU support which is interesting and adds some spice to the experience.

Then again...

The remasters are a lot faster. The graphics with the latest patches are clean enough. They are perfectly playable and cheap for the most part. There is scope for modding on the PC ports. They are basically HD. You can emulate in much higher resolutions these days so can make the experience what you need it to be for the most part.

Convenience versus authenticity basically...

 

[tvshtr]

My argument with emulation/remasters generally is always about authenticity as a whole.

The remasters are not truly authentic to the originals in my opinion. The differences are small but they exist. Emulation only really works if you have a powerful rig otherwise the experience is varied at best. The legit DC originals have modest VMU support which is interesting and adds some spice to the experience.

Then again...

The remasters are a lot faster. The graphics with the latest patches are clean enough. They are perfectly playable and cheap for the most part. There is scope for modding on the PC ports. They are basically HD. You can emulate in much higher resolutions these days so can make the experience what you need it to be for the most part.

Convenience versus authenticity basically...

This is not entirely true, I'm not trying to pit anybody against one version or another. Having both emulated and PC remaster, emulated one [ I'm using flycast ] even souped up with upscaling at the same resolution is faster than remaster and much lighter on resources, at least for me [ it's due to newly added effects and post-processing in part ]
What is a powerful rig nowadays? I'm emulating on recent APU [ integrated graphics ] from AMD and it's mid tier at best, runs both perfect.
Most emulators have virtual VMUs don't they? they're shown onscreen if you choose so.

Overall I think that remaster with a HD pack, restored audio is the way to go. Especially that you get to play proper Japanese dub from the get go which arguably is the superior one.

 

[gamesbloke]

This is not entirely true, I'm not trying to pit anybody against one version or another. Having both emulated and PC remaster, emulated one [ I'm using flycast ] even souped up with upscaling at the same resolution is faster than remaster and much lighter on resources, at least for me [ it's due to newly added effects and post-processing in part ]
What is a powerful rig nowadays? I'm emulating on recent APU [ integrated graphics ] from AMD and it's mid tier at best, runs both perfect.
Most emulators have virtual VMUs don't they? they're shown onscreen if you choose so.

Overall I think that remaster with a HD pack, restored audio is the way to go. Especially that you get to play proper Japanese dub from the get go which arguably is the superior one.

Much respect for your reply. Questions:

My PC is Celeron 1.6ghz dual core. 8GB ram, Win 10 64 bit. It's basically a cheap laptop. Onboard GFX. Do you think I could get away with running Flycast or is it just a no go?

Virtual VMU - My experience is that it's not a separate entity from the emulator aka you can use the VMU as its own entity (Imagine playing Skies Of Arcadia VMU whilst you work on the laptop). Am I being stupid here? Honestly never heard of flycast? Is this the answer to my prayers?

PC remaster is gonna resolve most arguments because of the modding potential. Totally out of my league because my PC is a turd lol. Am I in a minority here? Always assumed that not many folks had the kind of rig you have(Appreciate it mid tier but even that is out of my price range for example).

I'm thinking I'm out of touch with the reality of PC gaming.

Happy to be put straight on this because I've always dreamed of accurate DC emulation.

 

[tvshtr]

Much respect for your reply. Questions:

My PC is Celeron 1.6ghz dual core. 8GB ram, Win 10 64 bit. It's basically a cheap laptop. Onboard GFX. Do you think I could get away with running Flycast or is it just a no go?

Virtual VMU - My experience is that it's not a separate entity from the emulator aka you can use the VMU as its own entity (Imagine playing Skies Of Arcadia VMU whilst you work on the laptop). Am I being stupid here? Honestly never heard of flycast? Is this the answer to my prayers?

PC remaster is gonna resolve most arguments because of the modding potential. Totally out of my league because my PC is a turd lol. Am I in a minority here? Always assumed that not many folks had the kind of rig you have(Appreciate it mid tier but even that is out of my price range for example).

I'm thinking I'm out of touch with the reality of PC gaming.

Happy to be put straight on this because I've always dreamed of accurate DC emulation.

I get what are you saying about VMUs, I think, like playing chao games for Sonic Adventure 2. Never even thought about it, unsure if anything supports that, yet.
[ Edit. Apparently there are emulators made just for VMUs which I'm looking up rn ]
Integrated Intel GPUs, especially laptop ones [ with few exceptions ] are a no go usually, for multiple reasons. If its new enough to support Vulkan it would probably run decent enough, I have a passively cooled lappy with Intel dual core m3, which can run Dolphin [ game cube games ] via Vulkan, upscaled, pretty well, never tried flycast there but I'm sure it would run fine while restricting enhancements. I know that it runs on stuff like newer Raspberry Pies which are pretty much at the bottom of the price range.
It all depends, the spectrum is extremely wide and varied nowadays

To be honest modding seems already dead, there are 2-3 packs that are worthwhile and that's it.

 

[gamesbloke]

Reicast FTW lol ...

You sound like you have a strong emulation background. I only caught some of this thread and I note your detailed analysis and the debate you was having with another member.

Ever remember NeoRAGEX? It's a turd neo geo emulator but I have so much nostalgia for it. It's like NullDC is reasonably capable but not brilliant but I still say to folks who ask.. "NULL DC OOH YES!" - I think it's like a reaction rather than an actual firm recommendation. Flycast sounds too cool but I'm still in turd city, if you catch my drift.

Shame someone can't make an emulation wrapper with the best pre-baked settings for the best experience. You know like they do with GOG? Pick up and play etc....

"Shenmue Dojo Presents Shenmue HYPER REALITY EDITION"

Keep on dreaming right lol.

 

[tvshtr]

It's a tad complicated. Flycast is a Reicast fork, it was spun off from it and developed it's own features since. As Reicast [ arguably ] mainly focuses on mobiles now. Flycast is a Retoarch core, which brings some difficulties as it's a multi-emulator fronted available everywhere pretty much and due to this facts its amount of options/usage are pretty scary for newcomers [ it gained switch/android interfaces since which are much friendlier ]

I totally get the ease of use argument, though as they say "no pain no gain". Learning curve may be steep but things like Retroarch allow you to have all you games and emulators in one easily accessible/browsable [ similar to Kodi multimedia frontend, which can also use retroarch cores now to play games ] place when it's set up finally.
I've actually picked it up recently mainly to introduce my young nephews into retro gaming in easily discoverable and nicely presented manner


[ Regarding VMUs , there actually is a good emu which even has online/web version [ you drag .dci vmu roms which you'll find easily on the web ] unfortunatelly it doesn't seem to be connected/supported by any DC emulator ]

 

[gamesbloke]

Don't get along with Retro Arch at all. That's my sensibilities rather than issues with RA itself. Lol Kodi I do use.

I don't mind complexity if the rewards are there. But this is very rare for me. I'm quite a negative person in that regard. It's very rare that my efforts in PC emulation guarantee 60FPS and full sound lol.

Shame there isn't a resource to get Flycast - 'Shenmue-Proof'

Was gonna ask about Raspberry Pi but you already answered... Apologies... Edited....

 

[tvshtr]

I think that my own experience with both Kodi and Retroarch was pretty similar, I was taken aback initially and went through several retries to get into them. Mainly due to apparent complexity of both/default interfaces, ultimately being rewarding.
Flycast has predefined defaults for each game, the main issue is to have game sourced properly/detected plus they err on the side of safety with regard to low-end devices which can be sub-optimal.
Flycast has a standalone version just like Reicast, It lags behind the core a bit unfortunatelly [ not sure if it won't be abandoned even ] and I don't remeber where I've got mine or even if I've compiled it myself [ Edit. Found the builds, get them here if your gpu supports vulkan you should get the vulkan one ]. Possibly it would be something good to test on, for you.
[ it also gained netplay recently which I'm afraid to try as I'm easily addicted to such stuff ]