Did Shenmue 3 hurt the series?

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Could you please specify?
I'd have to refresh my memory, but I believe Remy from Shenmue Master alludes to IIIx being in development in the Shenmue Dragon & Phoenix book that came out via Pix 'N Love. Unless I'm imagining things.
 
I personally feel that the third game "progresses" the story no differently than the first two games. In the first game, the "progress" is that Lan Di is in Hong Kong and you get the Phoenix Mirror. In Shenmue II, it's largely about looking for Zhu Yuanda and that Lan Di might be in Guilin because that's where the mirrors were made. And you meet Shen Hua at the end, finally. In Shenmue III, you learn that Iwao and Lan Di's father were friends, Ryo's mother's name (Akane, which is funny because it's Ichi's mother's name in Yakuza: Like a Dragon), and that the Chi You Men's leadership have struggles and that Lan Di was raised by them.
Completely agree. Lack of overall story progress is not the problem with Shenmue III. The way they tell that story is, however.

How little they focus on the important things (Iwao, the cave, the prophecy, Niao Sun, the CYM), and how much they focus on unimportant things (thugs, thugs, money, item commerce, and more thugs). Every sensible person was prepared to forgive a flawed fighting system, cheap animations, less QTE "paths" or even less cutscenes. But the writing thing is a hard pill to swallow.
 
I'm trying to get him on the show
Oh my god, please let this happen. I need to know what the fuck he was on about, and whether or not he just made the whole thing up.

I remember being beside myself with excitement when that article dropped. The 2-5 years after that time were just the worst as a Shenmue fan. We're so fucking lucky to be here now, man. Too many people forget the madness we been through.
 
Oh my god, please let this happen. I need to know what the fuck he was on about, and whether or not he just made the whole thing up.

I remember being beside myself with excitement when that article dropped. The 2-5 years after that time were just the worst as a Shenmue fan. We're so fucking lucky to be here now, man. Too many people forget the madness we been through.
Well he hasn't said no but I can sense caution when we last spoke, which I understand.

He's still a big fan and has popped into out streams from time to time. Seems a genuinely decent dude.
 
I must admit, I was the longest lurker before I joined officially in 2018. Part of me wish I could've been more involved back in the day, but it was pretty dire times back in the mid-00's. It's a credit to the staff and a lot of the current members that make posting here almost every day a pleasure.

I was sort of aware of Doree's news at the time, but wasn't invested in the site enough to take much stock into it. But yeah, 2002 to say 2015 were pretty dark times for the series. We are so bloody lucky right now with the anime, the 3rd game and hopefully enough goodwill for a 4th!
 
Well he hasn't said no but I can sense caution when we last spoke, which I understand.

He's still a big fan and has popped into out streams from time to time. Seems a genuinely decent dude.
I get it. I mean, maybe it wasn't the smartest idea to run with the story...but I do believe what he was told was solid info from a solid source. Off the top of my head, the article stated that knowledgeable sources inside of SEGA said that the series was essentially done and awaiting an exclusive deal with Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft. Not to say it was a completed Shenmue III game that just needed porting like how the current III is available ok both PC and PS4, but I just kinda assumed it meant that the story, characters, music, research, etc. Was already completed. Maybe I'm way off. I just never understand the hate. Look at the work Kikizo did outside of that article. It's impeccable. Hating him for that article is just like hating Shin Ishikawa for writing the infamous "16 chapters" on that whiteboard during an interview. Could just be someone got something mixed up or lied, or maybe the plan was to finish Shenmue up to the point the article claims, and it just never materialized.
 
I never had any issued with the whole Kikizo thing really. He was only breaking what he was told in good faith. There was no point shooting the messenger on it, and back then, who knows what was lost in translation. Even interviews with YS in official publications were translated incorrectly. Who knows what the speaker is intending to say? Who knows if the translator has picked it up incorrectly? Who knows if the interviewer has made errors in their notes? I am also speaking in regards to that interview Nathan mentions above... they said some wrong things in that, especially regarding the chapters. When I say they, I mean they because its basically incorrect. It's not a translation error. It's incorrect information either they were told to give, or gave whilst under incorrect impressions.
 
I feel like fans saying that controversy and haters are what damaged the series are dooming us to have history repeat itself once again..

We're not giving Yu Suzuki criticism or pushing him to evolve, we're pushing the blame off onto something else.
There are real issues with Shenmue 3 that need to be hammered hard and repeatedly.

The characters, aside from Shenhua, are as flat as cardboard. The story is bare minimal and terribly written as well as il-paced. Nonsensical priorities that favor wasting the budget on mini-games, shops and an absurdly over-bloated Niaowu instead of combat/innovative new features/story.

At this rate, if Yu Suzuki by the grace of any God gets the budget needed for Shenmue 4.. we're either gonna be back here again with an unsatisfying story and a cliffhanger ending OR having an actual ending to the series that failed all of the promises setup by its predecessors.

In either case... I'm hanging my hat on the anime saving this series.
 
I feel like fans saying that controversy and haters are what damaged the series are dooming us to have history repeat itself once again..

We're not giving Yu Suzuki criticism or pushing him to evolve, we're pushing the blame off onto something else.
There are real issues with Shenmue 3 that need to be hammered hard and repeatedly.

The characters, aside from Shenhua, are as flat as cardboard. The story is bare minimal and terribly written as well as il-paced. Nonsensical priorities that favor wasting the budget on mini-games, shops and an absurdly over-bloated Niaowu instead of combat/innovative new features/story.

At this rate, if Yu Suzuki by the grace of any God gets the budget needed for Shenmue 4.. we're either gonna be back here again with an unsatisfying story and a cliffhanger ending OR having an actual ending to the series that failed all of the promises setup by its predecessors.

In either case... I'm hanging my hat on the anime saving this series.
Not quite sure I agree with all of this.

Let's just consider the factors that they had to deal with in making Shenmue 3:
  • Non-Static Budget until 2017
  • Much limited budget in comparison to the originals. Also factor in that Kickstarter Fees and rewards account for around 25% of the raised funds so that final total drops quite significantly.
  • No original source code to reference (70% of the whole dev time was spent getting the game systems going)
  • Re-building a fighting system
  • Considerably less staff (3 writers in comparison to 18 from the originals)
  • Expectations.
  • Essentially being told to push out what they had, resulting in a different ending to the one they wanted.
Now I don't disagree that the story in Shenmue 3 is minimal at all. From what I gather it follows the original outlines from the scripts from way back. They basically didn't have the time/resource to do more with what they had which is a massive shame but symptomatic of what they were working with.

When the vast majority of the dev time goes into building the game other things will end up being impacted and here one of those was the story. However I will be more critical if they have the same story issues with Shenmue 4 now that we have the systems in place and they don't have to spend such a large chunk of time on the systems. I think that would be final nail in the coffin for the games IMO. They shoudl really go to town on the story for Shenmue 4 if they get the opportunity.

Also, as fans, we have had the burden of 15 years of expectations and in some aspects Shenmue 3 was never going to live up to those and we all had some form of rose tinted glasses in that respect.

The critics range from fair to downright horrendous and I don't think we should ever ignore those/shift blame. What I wish people would do is have more of an understanding of what the team worked with to what we ended up getting, which was a decent game overall with some definite flaws, which should be scrutinised but with a sense of context.

I've said this for 2 years, my biggest discussion point out of all of this was the scope of the project. That's the biggest criticism I have but also the biggest compliment. Double edged sword for sure but can you imagine YS only giving us one area for the Kickstarter in 2015.... I don't think we'd have generated as much hype around what could have happened. Yes some were let down and clearly the project was hugely ambitious (probably not realistic either) but I applaud them for having the balls to go for it.

I've watched a few streams of new Shenmue fans playing Shenmue 1-3 and they've seem to had more enjoyment out of it the 3rd game than some of us. Now of course this is personal preference but these newer fans haven't been coloured by the 18 year wait and I sense that while they're also aware of the faults they've been more forgiving of them.

Did Shenmue 3 harm the franchise? No it didn't. Shenmue 3, warts and all, revived Shenmue, got us the HD re-releases (even if they are patchy), got us a bunch of new merch and got us this Anime. Shenmue 3 showed that the series has legs and continues to do so. It's now where those legs take us.
 
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Yeah, it’s objectively true. Shenmue was dead until Shenmue 3 was announced. Shenmue the Anime didn’t exist until Shenmue 3 came out, and it likely would’ve never existed otherwise. You can hate on it all you want, but it did lead to more Shenmue.
 
Hey, I've come to terms with the fact that the most vocal of our fanbase has Suzuki's ear and that's what led to mediocre Shenmue 3 and, inevitably, mediocre Shenmue 4.

How else would it go if nobody else speaks up and challenges Suzuki for a better product?

Shenmue was dead until Shenmue 3 was announced.
Why is this a feat though? Pre-launch Shenmue 3 is responsible for reviving Shenmue and generating hype (and honestly, it was mostly due to Sony's E3 stage reveal). Post-launch? We're lucky people forgot about us long enough to stop laughing.

Let's just consider the factors that they had to deal with in making Shenmue 3:
  • Much limited budget in comparison to the originals.
  • Re-building a fighting system
  • Considerably less staff (3 writers in comparison to 18 from the originals)
  • Expectations.
Yes, this exactly. It was a poorly planned budget. Either prioritize combat or prioritize storytelling. Suzuki didn't need $200k+ stretch goals on kickstarter for each group of mini-games or an RTS simulator.

However I will be more critical if they have the same story issues with Shenmue 4 now that we have the systems in place and they don't have to spend such a large chunk of time on the systems. I think that would be final nail in the coffin for the games IMO. They shoudl really go to town on the story for Shenmue 4 if they get the opportunity.
My question is how is Suzuki to know that fans don't want another Shenmue 3?

We have systems in place currently but what's that budget for Shenmue 4 going to look like? Probably less than 3s right? I mean how could it ever be larger after a record breaking kickstarter that later became villified in the media?

So.. what's to stop Suzuki from trying to implement the scrapped systems listed in the kickstarter and wasting the budget yet again? My answer is 'us the fans'... or it would've been in a situation where the fanbase was a lot less forgiving and a lot more critical.
 
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Hey, I've come to terms with the fact that the most vocal of our fanbase has Suzuki's ear and that's what led to mediocre Shenmue 3 and, inevitably, mediocre Shenmue 4.

How else would it go if nobody else speaks up and challenges Suzuki for a better product?



Why is this a feat though? Pre-launch Shenmue 3 is responsible for reviving Shenmue and generating hype (and honestly, it was mostly due to Sony's E3 stage reveal). Post-launch? We're lucky people forgot about us long enough to stop laughing.


Yes, this exactly. It was a poorly planned budget. Either prioritize combat or prioritize storytelling. Suzuki didn't need $200k+ stretch goals on kickstarter for each group of mini-games or an RTS simulator.


My question is how is Suzuki to know that fans don't want another Shenmue 3?

We have systems in place currently but what's that budget for Shenmue 4 going to look like? Probably less than 3s right? I mean how could it ever be larger after a record breaking kickstarter that later became villified in the media?

So.. what's to stop Suzuki from trying to implement the scrapped systems listed in the kickstarter and wasting the budget yet again? My answer is 'us the fans'... or it would've been in a situation where the fanbase was a lot less forgiving and a lot more critical.
Apologies for quoting the whole post, it's easier when I'm on my phone.

To your point re budget until we see the exact break-down on what they wanted to do with what they had compared to what we got I'd probably not be as harsh but I do take your point and it is something I see merit in, especially later on in my original reply to you.

Now knowing that fans don't want another Shenmue 3.... well firstly I know for a fact that people from YSNET read these boards so there's that element, they will have seen the criticisms. I also know that people close to the project have told YS about the good and bad from Shenmue 3 and I believe YS did an interview commenting on what he'd like to improve for Shenmue 4 in 2020, I'd have to dig it out. He's also commented a few times that he's played some more modern games recently so that can only help.

Also the average score, rounded up, for Shenmue 3 is a 7. Fan reviews hold at around the same score. A 7/10 is not a bad game. It is a game with some good elements and some flaws. That's not a fanbase being forgiving, that's being balanced and not going off a cliff in either direction.

I'd also say that the fanbase have been relatively balanced and constructive (for the most part) in communicating the message here. I'd always go back to my original interview with Ryan Payton, communicated constructively and in a good manner and people will take it on-board. People running around saying Shenmue 3 ruined my life isn't going to get listened to by anyone in the team, that I can assure anyone of. I'd love to be invited to YSNET to discuss everything and highlight the comments here but, unfortunately, that won't happen. So we get creative. James and I made a real point of pushing hard what Shenmue 4 should do in a podcast episode, which I know someone at YSNET has heard. They should use what they have, tighten the combat, improve/remove the stamina system and hammer the story.

I'd also add that there are people around YS telling him this stuff and while they may not win every battle they can certainly help shape what comes next. So there's no bonafide promise that Shenmue 4 will do what (I think) most of us would like but that message has been received, loud and clear.

As I said, if they don't hammer the story in Shenmue 4 I'm convinced that the game series is then done. I don't think they can afford to drop the ball twice in that regard. Anime or not.
 
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Hey, I've come to terms with the fact that the most vocal of our fanbase has Suzuki's ear and that's what led to mediocre Shenmue 3 and, inevitably, mediocre Shenmue 4.
In the absolute nicest way possible, you are talking out of your ass here.

Nobody in "the fanbase" had that level of sway over Yu Suzuki, and if you think they were any more vocal than the outright hysterics from the press and the Kickstarter comments section, you are mistaken.

The game had a lot to live up to and was developed under very restrictive conditions. I wish we knew what the plan was for that original $2 million version, so we could know how obscenely lucky we were that we got something even vaguely comparable to the originals.
 
Lol. I didn’t even say Shenmue 3 was the perfect shenmue game, Gladias, but it’s undeniable the franchise was completely dead until it came out. How can you argue otherwise? And lo and behold, it’s still alive. There’s an anime now.

The Shenmue 3 most of us wanted, and obviously won’t ever get, would’ve come out about 15 years ago.
 
Lol. I didn’t even say Shenmue 3 was the perfect shenmue game, Gladias, but it’s undeniable the franchise was completely dead until it came out. How can you argue otherwise? And lo and behold, it’s still alive. There’s an anime now.

The Shenmue 3 most of us wanted, and obviously won’t ever get, would’ve come out about 15 years ago.
I would say late 2002 in Japan and summer 2003 the reset of the world if Dreamcast survived and Shenmue became a bigger success. Yes, I agree that Shenmue 3 we hoped for is ironically no longer possible.

Suzuki was very open with what the game was for the most part. As far back as 2010, he said the game's direction was going to be inwards as opposed to outwards for starters.
 
It always does amaze me when people think Yu Suzuki and his team are somehow unable to look at feedback for Shenmue 3 on the internet. Do you think he releases the game and then cuts himself off from everything Shenmue related online?

It's even more bizarre when there's already an interview out stating he looked at feedback. Not to mention Cedric and Ryan have already stated the same thing.

Shenmue fans really do confuse me sometimes.

Without Shenmue 3, you don't get a Shenmue 1 and 2 HD or a Shenmue anime. Not to mention all the extra Merch.
 
This topic sure has been going... Did Shenmue 3 hurt the series? U kidding? It saved not only the series, but also fan communities like this place and the general public interest surrounding the IP. Just look at all the merch, the anime and the HD ports just like ShenSun said. I don't even doubt Sega was willing to bury the IP permanently if not for the Kickstarter success story.
So what if S3 didn't meet all the expectations of every single fanboy? Even if the game had VF5's combat and a story written by Neil Druckmann, it still wouldn't sell well enough that Sega or Sony would've handed Yu a blank cheque for S4 like the old days because in the end, Shenmue is a niche title and will always be. And for the sake of argument and comparison, as it always come up, Yakuza is not niche and it didn't need the West for the franchise to thrive as it has always sold well in Japan alone. Anyway, I'm just thankful the Shenmue series is still going one way or another despite not being mainstream.
 
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