How big should environments be?

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Hi, I'm new. :grinning:

I seem to come across Yu Suzuki mentioning how he'd like Shenmue to be open world, or close to it and all I think is "...really? :hmm:" I just don't have any desire to have unnecessarily large environments just because you can. 🤷‍♂️

I think a mantra of denser rather than bigger would be much better. The size of Yokosuka - so from Yamanose to Dobuita - was perfect, for me. It felt like you really get familiar with a slightly smaller location and it's more intimate. Hong Kong in Shenmue 2, and Bailu Village and Niaowu in Shenmue 3 were honestly too big; I could have done with those locations being a good 40-50% smaller.

My idealised Shenmue game would compensate by have 3 primary locations all the size of Yokosuka. This would bring more variety with more focussed, fine tuned environments. Thoughts?
 
I agree. Smaller environments tend to have that special magic. The sense of living in it rather than going just through it. I had similar thoughts on a lot of modern games now. Ideally I would prefer a smaller area that changes throughout the game. The classic roleplaying game "gothic" had that approach. It had chapters that you could play through and after each chapter the world changed because the story pointed towards a different result.

Shenmue could totally benefit from a similar approach. Imagine that a major event happens in the story and some of the buildings change or the landscape changes from spring into winter or something. Maybe even a small jump in time would be interesting at some point along the story. With the atmosphere totally reflecting the mood of the characters that now talk about it...

Anyway. A smaller dense world is key for shenmue imo too. :giggle:

p.s Welcome to the dojo :coffee::giggle:(y)
 
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Yu Suzuki talked about wanting to focus on denser environments for Shenmue 4 in this interview with IGN Japan (translation by forum member Switch). Instead of going for an open world as other games do he talks about navigating confined spaces and how that feels more immersive. I would also welcome that. A bit smaller but with more details.

 
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While I to prefer smaller more dense environments, the one issue I see if the chapter cards are any indication is the game is going to push Ryo to new environments and areas. So designing an area like Yokosuka which the player gets to know intimately by constantly exploring same play area might not be an option if the narrative is driving Ryo to new locations.

That’s the balancing act Suzuki amongst other things will have to navigate with a prospective Shenmue 4.
 
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I'm going to go against the grain on this and say I'd be interested in a larger game world.

This is caveated by of course saying they'd need the proper budget for it, but if we're talking purely a fantasy version of Shenmue IV, I'd be interested in a singular game world made of interconnected towns, villages, settlements, countryside, and assorted landmarks that you are free to explore either at your own leisure or directed around via the main story. I'd also reintroduce the concept of Ryo riding a bike to make travel easier, alongside a more conventional fast travel system, and various places across the map for Ryo to sleep (free and paid, with interesting rewards/consequences for staying places often, or not paying the rent).

In general I'm really interested in a Shenmue that sheds some of the linearity, which I've detailed in a completely over the top post here before. Haven't read the post in a while, but I believe the structure I imagined funnelled the player from linear to non-linear by the end of the first act, before narrowing back down for the finale. I dunno, I just feel like that'd be a really satisfying way to do a game like Shenmue.
 
Smaller environments for me. It makes it easier for the NPC's to be more detailed and it's easier to connect with the environment.

We could have got a much better experience in Shenmue 3 if Choubu wasn't expanded at the expense of the Baisha section of the game.
 
Well, I think it has to be right. As Shenmue fans, we are not about style over substance. The next environment can be as wide as an ocean, but as deep as a puddle. But when it comes to Shenmue, it may be a pond or lake, but you're getting something as deep as the ocean. As long as the environment serves some kind of purpose, that's all that matters to me.
 
Well it depends on where we go in Shenmue IV. Will it be mostly at the cliff temple? Or a neighboring city?

My ideal size for an open world is still Kamurocho from Yakuza. It's just big enough without being overkill and allows to be packed more densely with detail than other open worlds.

So I would be perfectly fine with something that size. I didn't even mind the size of Hong Kong in SII or the size of Niaowu in SIII.

My gripe with open world games are the ones that go for size over density where most of it is just wasteland in between, I'm over that type of open world completely. But give me something roughly Kamurocho size and fill it more densely and you have a winner.
 
I remember when I first played Shenmue 2 and was amazed by it's size and detail. To achieve that on a Sega Dreamcast was quite remarkable. But even with how amazing it looks, I still preferred Shenmue 1's smaller world.

Shenmue 1's world sucked me in like no other game has managed to do since. You get to experience the world in detail to the point where it all feels so familiar and homely. This is Ryo's home and Shenmue 1 perfectly captures that feeling. Honestly, it's the only game I have played that I don't like completing. You get so comfortable with it that you never want to leave.

Shenmue 2's world on the other hand doesn't have that same comfortable and homely feel because of it's size. You are thrown from one huge area to the next that it's hard to take everything in and truly feel at home with it. At the same time though.....that is kind of the point. Ryo has left his home behind and thrown himself out into the big wide world. Not feeling at home and comfortable with your surroundings was captured perfectly in Shenmue 2.

If the series does continue in video game form going forward, I really hope we can get another Shenmue 1 like experience. As impressive as big open world games look, it's much harder to feel fully immersed in them and grow attached to them like we do with smaller worlds.
 
I often find myself referring to Shenmue as an open worlds series, but in truth, I’d genuinely hate for the games to have a GTA sized map or even anything close to it. Part of what makes the Shenmue games so special to me is how immersive they are and a lot of this is down to the tireless work that goes into world-building.

As well as lacking the budget to provide the kind of detail needed for a large open world to feel genuine, Suzuki also lacks the budget for the required number of NPCs. Niaowu was ruined by how desolate it ended up being (well, that and the many barriers that pointlessly blocked progress), so I’d hate to imagine an even larger city with the population spread so thin.

There’s also the issue of how many more destinations Ryo still has to visit, as others have touched upon above. If Yu plans to wrap things up with just two more games, we’re likely going to need to visit five or six different locations in S4. As we know these to be spread all across China, having them be connected as one large open world just wouldn’t make sense and the resources needed to make each one it’s own large area just aren’t going to be there.
 
I don't think the locations as dictated by the VF RPG story will be too much of a problem, outside of plot points where X event absolutely has to take place in Y location. There have already been cuts and changes in this respect, even with the blank cheque given to development on the original games. It gets tricky if plot points are inherently connected to the location like Mengcun and Luoyang, but we don't quite know how they factor in yet.

I feel like some of these environments also wouldn't need to be explorable in the traditional Shenmue sense either? Like, I wouldn't have a problem if the climax to the final game was in a fixed location without associated open world trappings. Guess it really depends on the plot progression, and assuming the chapter art shows the "essential" locations of each piece, that's only about three identifiable locations (cliff temple, Cangzhou, Luoyang) with a further two on grass plains somewhere.

The question is also... what's optimal for both the story and gameplay? I'm really of the opinion that they shouldn't be in competition for resources but rather compliment each other, though I know it's easier said than done.
 
Only Yu knows how many of the planned locations are truly essential. I suppose it’s possible that he could cut it down to just the cliff temple, Mengcun and wherever it is that there mirrors are supposed to be used (heck, this could actually be Mengcun), but I think we’d end up with a weaker game for it.

As for building systems that benefit both gameplay and story, I’m all for it, but fail to see how an oversized open world really improves either. Providing it’s large enough to be believable, it’s good enough for me!
 
I also vouch for smaller, packed areas. Shenmue II is my favorite of the three so far and I certainly liked Shenmue III, but always felt some of their areas were too big or spread out (a bunch of apartments in Kowloon had multiple floors but were empty, for example, some areas in Bailu and Niaowu were kinda empty as well).

Yokosuka was perfect in that regard, imo. Even if Ryo goes to Beijing and other big cities there's no need to make huge areas. Just focus the story in small districts.

(or multiple small villages)

Even if Ryo goes to huge buildings again there's no need to model or optimize every apartment, etc.
 
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I think all the Shenmue games have the precise balance between size of places and things to do and interactions.
Truly an example to follow.
 
Only Yu knows how many of the planned locations are truly essential. I suppose it’s possible that he could cut it down to just the cliff temple, Mengcun and wherever it is that there mirrors are supposed to be used (heck, this could actually be Mengcun), but I think we’d end up with a weaker game for it.

As for building systems that benefit both gameplay and story, I’m all for it, but fail to see how an oversized open world really improves either. Providing it’s large enough to be believable, it’s good enough for me!
Again, it really depends what needs to be a fully fledged open environment and what needs to be a "set piece" environment, and whether Yu still thinks two games is the minimum to satisfyingly conclude the story. Looking at the real life location the cloud temple is based on, for example, it doesn't feel like a place we'll spend the majority of the next game.

Really wish I'd started learning Unreal Engine years earlier so I could build a basic prototype to show the potential of a bigger Shenmue environment. I definitely understand the scepticism and worry it might stretch things too far even with an increased budget and team size next time, but I feel there's an undeniable potential in a game that takes place in a moderately sized "region" rather than a singular village, town, or city.

For clarification's sake I'm not talking about a world that's the size of Breath of the Wild, Red Dead Redemption 2, etc - but bigger than we've seen in Shenmue thus far and encapsulates a lot of variety in locales and activities that tie into story development and the core gameplay loop.
 
For clarification's sake I'm not talking about a world that's the size of Breath of the Wild, Red Dead Redemption 2, etc - but bigger than we've seen in Shenmue thus far and encapsulates a lot of variety in locales and activities that tie into story development and the core gameplay loop.
I guess we just have differing views on this. Looking back at the first three games, I find myself asking “would a larger map improve the experience?” and the answer is a somewhat resounding no (if anything, I think Shenmue 3 would be better if Niaowu and Bailu were smaller).

For me, each location is large enough to be believable as a town / village and I really can’t think of anything that would make them even more so were it to be added. Even if I could, I don’t think that having a new building or two (whatever they may be) necessarily necessitates a larger map.
 
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