How to 'modernize' Shenmue IV without losing the essence of Shenmue?

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Shenmue IIx
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Ghost of Tsushima
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How can Ys Net make Shenmue IV meet the standard of today's games without losing the essence of Shenmue? People will argue some of the archaic design is Shenmue, but I don't think that's the case at all. I think some of the issues folks had with Shenmue III were simply issues with outright poor game design.

Two big ones for me:

1. Inventory management - Actually show how many items you are holding. We all know how big of a pain in the ass it was to figure out which move scrolls or items were already in our possession. They really just need to hire someone who can make menus that aren't a total eye sore.

2. Tutorials. Combat needs to be explained. "Mash face buttons" isn't acceptable. Maybe the combat isn't as deep as the combat in Shenmue 1 & 2, but I think more people would appreciate it if they were given some lessons in how to handle the combat. I also think better explaining the in-game economy would go a long way towards helping people understand stamina and money management.

On the other hand, I hope they continue to shy away from hand-holding maps full of blinking icons and exclamation marks. I am happy to organically discover side missions, shops and characters. I see this criticized in some places, but I think this is one of the things that make Shenmue superior to many other open world games.
 
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I totally agree with your first point.

I wish there was a way to sort items and Move scrolls alphabetically, and by value or how powerful a move is. Sorting the move scrolls would have been helpful to figure out which moves you have already mastered, as it seems any time you acquired a new move it was kind of randomly added to your inventory. It would also be nice if when we are at a shop that the game could at least inform us if we already own an item.

I am not against the second point either, but I don't think there was much to actually explain about the fighting system. It was pretty much all combos, with no basic moves.
 
I am not sure about the combat. I still think its logic should be laid out a little better than it was in Shenmue 3, even if its is rather basic compared to other games. I saw quite a few people expressing confusion about it online. The AT/MT distinction is especially confusing. I'm not sure that's explained at all.
 
I will say that I don't have a problem with the way Ryo controls, as some people on the Internet complained.

And I am fiercely against allowing the player to skip through dialogue in the first play through or adding waypoints to the map or flashing beacons to tell the player where to go.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the mini map as it is pretty useless as is and clutters up the screen.

I am open to suggestions on how to modernize the game. I'm failing to come up with any ideas at the moment.
 
I am not sure about the combat. I still think its logic should be laid out a little better than it was in Shenmue 3, even if its is rather basic compared to other games. I saw quite a few people expressing confusion about it online. The AT/MT distinction is especially confusing. I'm not sure that's explained at all.

It's true that the game doesn't explain anything. Do the AT moves ever change? Can we change them?

The MT lets us put together favorite combos, but I wish that I could switch between MT 1- MT4 during a fight. In some way, there was simply too much going on for how little we fight in the game, and I fought all of the monks in both locations,and everyone at the rose garden, even against multiple fighters, but never felt a need to develop any kind of strategy. I just used the moves that I had mastered and used snake power when needed.
 
I will say that I don't have a problem with the way Ryo controls, as some people on the Internet complained.

And I am fiercely against allowing the player to skip through dialogue in the first play through or adding waypoints to the map or flashing beacons to tell the player where to go.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the mini map as it is pretty useless as is and clutters up the screen.

I am open to suggestions on how to modernize the game. I'm failing to come up with any ideas at the moment.
I have no issue with it either. He controls way better than he does in 1 & 2. I am ok with skipping dialogue; that's the player's choice. I agree the mini map is useless, but it's so useless I don't even think about it and it's basically invisible to me.

Oh, the game needs to let you pause during work and other side activities. That's a big one. Maybe jobs should pay a little better, too. Log cutting is fun, but it barely earns you money. What's the point? At least let us earn a bonus for chopping better.
 
Small things like the ability to skip text would go a long way. I also agree on the tutorial; Shenmue I had the bonus of the videos explaining different things on the Shenmue Passport disc, so perhaps something like that?

Also agree re: inventory; the OCD in me found it difficult to deal with. Perhaps something like a tick next to scrolls you already have perhaps? A proper pause button would be good too.
 
I think it's already been modernized in 3.

1.No loading screen when entering shops/moving to the next area.

2.A map that you have in notebook.

3.Non-tank controls movement and free moving camera.

It just needs to have this option to skip the dialogues.(It kinda has it in 3 but you have to get out of the conversation in order for it to work)
 
Since item management has already been brought up, I will bring up a few small things that would 'modernize' Shenmue III without betraying its original spirit.

I). While I appreciate that the world is much more seamless to travel, there is one issue I have. When talking with Shenhua during cutscenes, the screen transitions to black which really breaks my immersion. Have it so the conversation takes place in real time, make it as seamless as traveling the games world.

II). While I am forgiving of the recycled music, the places where Suzuki implemented them is awkward. Like hearing Joy's theme in a jazz shop for example. What made the music great in the original games was that they fit the scene or set the tone. To be honest, I miss a lot of the FREE music you listened to in the originals in Shenmue III.

III). I wish the aiming mechanic was more precise with the pail toss minigames. For example, when the arrow points to a bucket, give some sort of indication that if I toss the rock it will land in the pail.

IV). This one is just a small nitpick, but I would have preferred it if the camera moved further away from Ryo while out in the field. This would give the player a greater overall view.

V). Include an option to disable the camera lens in zoom mode and the red circles if the player chooses. Part of what makes Shenmue fun is discovering these items on your own without help, even if it runs contrary to modern game design.

VI). Finally I am not a fan of uncapped frame rates because it makes the game feel disjointed. Have a solid thirty on console and a solid sixty or above on PC. Shenmue III even on high settings is not that demanding, so why they uncapped the frame rate is beyond me.

VII). Have button in combat correspond to a movement (Square for Punch and X for kick as an example). Also like Shenmue II oddly enough, have the ability to switch out moves with similar button presses. This would reduce the amount of confusion during battle when you want to do one move and end up doing another.

I think these seven things would make Shenmue III feel more modern without betraying its original spirit. I absolutely love this game, but that does not mean its perfect.
 
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I honestly feel like the complaint that Shenmue 3 has failed to learn from the modernization of video games over the last twenty years is being used as a lazy criticism with which to beat the game and holds no real weight.

I haven’t read all of the reviews for the game, but those that I have have failed to articulate what about the design of the game is archaic.

The lack of a mini-map with flashing lights and arrows seems fitting for a game set in 1980’s rural China and having one in the game would feel illogical to me. Most modern games implement this functionality using a cell phone, car gps or some other electronic device, but these things didn’t exist at that time. If people wanted to navigate a town or village back then they would have used a paper map, which is exactly what the player is given.

This complaint also doesn’t make much sense to me as the way the game gates off areas allows the player to learn their way around very quickly. Although a little cumbersome at times, restricting where the player could explore did a great job teaching them the lay of the land. I’m not sure I got lost once and I always had a decent idea of where I should be going or the area I should be investigating.

Whilst the menu system was serviceable, I agree that it could have been better (buy/trade/sell in the same menu and item count when buying new items), but ultimately, did this really impact the game play to any real extent? I don’t think so.

To me, the complaint that Shenmue is dated holds no merit and I’m fairly certain that had the game released as a new IP, it wouldn’t have been criticized for this reason. Don’t get me wrong, the gaming press would have still hated it because it doesn’t have guns or cars or blood - but the ‘dated’ angle was always going to get thrown around no matter what YSNET did.
 
V). Include an option to disable the camera lens in zoom mode and the red circles if the player chooses. Part of what makes Shenmue fun is discovering these items on your own without help, even if it runs contrary to modern game design.
You can already do this. Turn off ‘zoom’ in the settings menu.
 
As you said, "archaism" is the laziest conclusion you can read about the game design.
It furiously irritates me when I read such argument and lead me think that the reviewer has no idea what he's talking about. Give me an axe!
 
III). I wish the aiming mechanic was more precise with the pail toss minigames. For example, when the arrow points to a bucket, give some sort of indication that if I toss the rock it will land in the pail.

This would kind of defeat the purpose of the game and make it pretty unchallenging. The whole point is that you have to be the one to judge when/where to throw the rock.
 
I completely agree that calling specific game mechanics "dated" or "archaic" is lazy and basically means nothing. Talking to NPCs to gather information is not, and will never be, "dated".

However, how those things are executed or delivered to the player can definitely feel outdated. Improvements have been made in game design over the past 20 years, especially when it comes to ease-of-use and the general "user experience", which is the main area I'd like to see fixed/enhanced in IV:
  • skip dialogue (all previously read at the bare minimum)
  • ability to pause during all scenes
  • the speed of the QTEs is 100% an archaic design decision (and by archaic, I mean is no longer fun or acceptable by most people's standards)
  • I have issues with the UI but it's less item management-specific and more general:
    • Help on Triangle is completely unnecessary and forces extra context-sensitive actions that didn't need to be there. Put Interact or Notebook on Triangle
    • using Triangle to select items in the menu, then the D-pad to modify / confirm / cancel...wowsers. The D-pad should not be the only way to interact with selection menus, and that goes for dialogue and interactions, too
    • the bouncy, flashy icons in the lower right are overkill. To be fair to III, I don't think the in-game UI has ever been great in Shenmue, but in some ways the first game did it best with sheer simplicity: if you could talk, the A icon would appear. If you got a new notebook entry, the notebook icon would appear until you checked it. I'm not convinced we need a representation of all four face buttons sitting in the bottom right all the time. The game's controls are not that complicated
Some of the issues being mentioned here aren't really about "modernising", they're more technical and personal complaints. I was tempted to say the localisation, but I think that's much more of a budgetary concern than a deliberate attempt to make an awkward-sounding game.
 
I think that is not possible. Shenmue is Shenmue because it feels like a 1990s action adventure style gameplay. Everything modern, like blinking icons, and other comfort functions would kill the Shenmue gameplay. Nobody needs blinking icons and other modern stuff in Shenmue. It is just not appropriate. Modern games seriously lack immersion with their overblown interface. Old games like Shenmue are way more immersive and if S4 is happening it should be kept that way.

And besides "modernizing" Shenmue would not do the series any favors anyway. Young folks would not love the game anyway. Because they do not know the first 3 games. And some old fans might be scared away with the new approach. In the end everybody would lose.

Things should be kept the way they are ina hypothetical S4
 
II). While I am forgiving of the recycled music, the places where Suzuki implemented them is awkward. Like hearing Joy's theme in a jazz shop for example. What made the music great in the original games was that they fit the scene or set the tone. To be honest, I miss a lot of the FREE music you listened to in the originals in Shenmue III.

That was absolutely NOT a jazz shop lol; there are a bunch of electric guitars and the proprietor even is decked-out in Cowboy (Country and Western Music) garb and is pretending he's shredding on a guitar.

I thought Joy's theme fit perfectly.
 
I think some of the presentation could do with a bit of modernizing.

For instance, those early segments where you're walking to Bailu Village for the first time. Where you get those very stilted cut scenes that feel all too awkward in the way they keep cutting to black.

In any other modern game, that little section would simply be a "walk and talk" section. As in you would have control over the character but would be limited to walking and as you walk dialog would be shared. So many modern day games do this (usually to mask load times)..hell, even Yakuza 0 did this with those early sections where you simply walking and talking to Nishki.

I would modernise the game in that sense. Update the presentation. The actual game design is fine by and me and is a big part of why I love Shenmue (because its has own rhythm and sensibilities) but I think the presentation is what could use the most updating and dare I say modernisation.

The actual game design I've never really had a problem with. Shenmue has its own cadence. It is largely a detective game with you always hunting down clues to get to the next story bit. The only thing I would say in regards to the detective game is think of new ways to make it more interesting. Maybe give more dialog choices or more ways to get to the end goal instead of having to seek out one or two people.

I don't know. The game design of Shenmue doesn't bother me. But I think the presentation is what could do with some modernising to some degree. Little things like the walk and talk could go a lot further in presenting something less clunky.
 
I think some of the presentation could do with a bit of modernizing.

For instance, those early segments where you're walking to Bailu Village for the first time. Where you get those very stilted cut scenes that feel all too awkward in the way they keep cutting to black.

In any other modern game, that little section would simply be a "walk and talk" section. As in you would have control over the character but would be limited to walking and as you walk dialog would be shared. So many modern day games do this (usually to mask load times)..hell, even Yakuza 0 did this with those early sections where you simply walking and talking to Nishki.

I would modernise the game in that sense. Update the presentation. The actual game design is fine by and me and is a big part of why I love Shenmue (because its has own rhythm and sensibilities) but I think the presentation is what could use the most updating and dare I say modernisation.
The poor cutscenes are down to poor design, not a lack of modernization. The first few games in the series still hold up today in terms of the cinematography and they’re two decades old.

I really can’t understand the thinking behind the cuts to black, but feel like the strange camera cuts were the result of a programming error or something. Either the positioning of the cameras was wrong or they intended to use a different shot type on the cuts (wide -> close-up or something) or a slow pan or zoom that just didn’t trigger correctly. There’s no way somebody as YSNet looked at that and said ‘Yup. That really adds to the experience.’. They more than likely lacked the time or know-how to fix it.
 
The cutscene loadings are due to this that they decided to make environments much bigger than 1 & 2.
I have no problem with that.

Since they added skip the dialogues feature I hope that they add the move over obstacles feature.
It's annoying that when a fence is on your way you have to move around a lot to get to the otherside of the fence instead of jumping over it like RE 4.
 
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