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I had actually started the boat chapter for RPG Maker way back when... it never got past the initial dock stages... ^^!
In Shenmue 2, do you think Ryo is speaking Chinese? Or that everyone is speaking Japanese?
- Thread starter Dietsoap
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OK I'll be that guy.
The only thing that's established in S1 is that Ryo can't read the letter, but neither can several other Chinese NPCs because it's written in old kanji in a weird style and it's backwards. Technically there's nothing to suggest that Ryo can't understand/speak enough Chinese to get by. Even though it's just a game and this doesn't really matter, considering Ryo is shown interacting with very poor children in China who are definitely not speaking Japanese or English, he must be speaking Chinese (likely Mandarin).
The only thing that's established in S1 is that Ryo can't read the letter, but neither can several other Chinese NPCs because it's written in old kanji in a weird style and it's backwards. Technically there's nothing to suggest that Ryo can't understand/speak enough Chinese to get by. Even though it's just a game and this doesn't really matter, considering Ryo is shown interacting with very poor children in China who are definitely not speaking Japanese or English, he must be speaking Chinese (likely Mandarin).
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And wasn't the letter a certain type of Chinese that wasn't widely understood? I somewhat remember him taking it to a Chinese restaurant and being told they can't read it and that's why he had to go to the antique store.
Mittens2317
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Exactly that. Plus - I may be wrong - but I think there are a number of words and/or phrases that are shared between Japanese and Chinese. I'd also assume that, if the school systems are in any way similar to ours, the foreign languages taught at schools there would be those of neighbouring nations. Then there's the fact that Iwao has been to China, and would therefore be likely to know how to speak it well enough to have taught Ryo. Or at least encourage a light study of it considering his martial arts-centric lifestyle.
So all in all, it stands to reason that Ryo would at least know a bit of Chinese, perhaps we'll enough to "get by" just as any educated tourist in a nearby country (that isn't English of course, we're shit at learning other languages)
The mirrored letter is one thing but let's not forget that Ryo also cannot read the Stab Armor Scroll or the Mysterious Scroll.
I take that they aren't written in first grade Chinese either but they are definately not as cryptic as the letter, so...
I take that they aren't written in first grade Chinese either but they are definately not as cryptic as the letter, so...
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Just a couple things I think are worth mentioning:
Japanese characters are (pretty much) the traditional characters that are still used in Cantonese.
Mandarin (for the last 70 years or so) uses simplified characters, and I don't know if native Japanese speakers can figure it out most of the time, but I can't. Shit's weird.
Most Japanese people don't know any Mandarin other than extremely basic greetings and things. I don't know if Chinese language was offered in schools in the 80s, but I kind of doubt it. Post-war Japan cares a lot more about English, and has really felt no reason to ingratiate itself to China at all (there's a lot of prejudice against China and both foreign and native born Chinese in Japan).
Ryo probably should have been able to recognize that the characters in the letter were written backwards, but it's not really readable for a Japanese person, anyway. It's one thing to recognize some of the characters, and quite another to be able to make sense of it. Same for the scrolls, although for those he could probably get some idea of what it's saying.
Rather than asking whether or not Ryo knows any Chinese language, let's ask whether Lan Di actually knows Japanese, and why. To make it a little more spicy, the the Aji-ichi folks and Chen have distinct Chinese accents, while Lan Di speaks perfect Japanese. (I'm just kidding. Let's not. Personally I'm not bothered at all by the language issues.)
Japanese characters are (pretty much) the traditional characters that are still used in Cantonese.
Mandarin (for the last 70 years or so) uses simplified characters, and I don't know if native Japanese speakers can figure it out most of the time, but I can't. Shit's weird.
Most Japanese people don't know any Mandarin other than extremely basic greetings and things. I don't know if Chinese language was offered in schools in the 80s, but I kind of doubt it. Post-war Japan cares a lot more about English, and has really felt no reason to ingratiate itself to China at all (there's a lot of prejudice against China and both foreign and native born Chinese in Japan).
Ryo probably should have been able to recognize that the characters in the letter were written backwards, but it's not really readable for a Japanese person, anyway. It's one thing to recognize some of the characters, and quite another to be able to make sense of it. Same for the scrolls, although for those he could probably get some idea of what it's saying.
Rather than asking whether or not Ryo knows any Chinese language, let's ask whether Lan Di actually knows Japanese, and why. To make it a little more spicy, the the Aji-ichi folks and Chen have distinct Chinese accents, while Lan Di speaks perfect Japanese. (I'm just kidding. Let's not. Personally I'm not bothered at all by the language issues.)
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So he can't read the language but he can speak/understand enough of it to get by.
Ryo should probably be able to recognize a lot of things faster than he does-- he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Or Lan Di was speaking Chinese to Iwao and Ryo was able to more or less understand him (especially because he writes Meng Cun in his journal).
I don't actually think this is the intention but Ryo understanding enough Chinese to get by is fine for my head cannon purposes. It wouldn't even be an issue if S1 didn't call attention to it and I wonder if the anime will deal with it or just ignore it.
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Actually, I think Yu Suzuki was asked that at one point.. his answer was (if I'm not mistaken).. "it's a game"
That said, I myself like to imagine that Ryo is speaking Chinese. That way, I can better envision that Ryo is engulfed in a fresh atmosphere for himself. A strange land.
That said, I myself like to imagine that Ryo is speaking Chinese. That way, I can better envision that Ryo is engulfed in a fresh atmosphere for himself. A strange land.
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If it was written truly archaic I can understand even everyday Chinese people not being able to read it, as things changed drastically for some of these hanzi/kanji over the centuries. I have provided examples. It would be like the average English person trying to read cursive handwriting that is all shot to hell, but still in English from centuries ago. ^^!
You can see why, if the characters looked like this (the more archaic ones), it would be practically impossible unless they were a scholar in ancient writing for that particular language or grouped language. But what is shown in the letter that just needs a mirror, although the lady states it is written in a special style besides reversed, what ever that means, I am assuming it is just a plot device, because even the common Chinese living in the area of Japan with Ryo should of been able to read it, especially the older folks.
I also think any standard Chinese dictionary and a little common sense of "Oh look, 12 strokes and it looks exactly like this, but backwards... And this one is 15 strokes and looks exactly like this, but backwards... And this is 3 strokes and looks exactly like this, but backwards..." I'd assume anyone would of figured out the hand writing was backwards, especially for someone who already uses Chinese characters daily in their own language, adaptive and straight taken from it and especially the Chinese already living there.
Then again certain styles of writing can look down right unreadable, unless you already know that style. Even knowing hiragana and then looking at the grass script can leave a lot of people scratching their heads if they do not know how it is suppose to all connect together. ^^!
You can see why, if the characters looked like this (the more archaic ones), it would be practically impossible unless they were a scholar in ancient writing for that particular language or grouped language. But what is shown in the letter that just needs a mirror, although the lady states it is written in a special style besides reversed, what ever that means, I am assuming it is just a plot device, because even the common Chinese living in the area of Japan with Ryo should of been able to read it, especially the older folks.
I also think any standard Chinese dictionary and a little common sense of "Oh look, 12 strokes and it looks exactly like this, but backwards... And this one is 15 strokes and looks exactly like this, but backwards... And this is 3 strokes and looks exactly like this, but backwards..." I'd assume anyone would of figured out the hand writing was backwards, especially for someone who already uses Chinese characters daily in their own language, adaptive and straight taken from it and especially the Chinese already living there.
Then again certain styles of writing can look down right unreadable, unless you already know that style. Even knowing hiragana and then looking at the grass script can leave a lot of people scratching their heads if they do not know how it is suppose to all connect together. ^^!
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For further reasoning on how certain scripts could stump even those that know the fundamentals of a language... ^^!
I am no expert, but even knowing the basics, I look at these and stare like... WTF... ^^! But again, what was written in the reverse letter looked practically basic to me. Nothing truly "out there".
I am no expert, but even knowing the basics, I look at these and stare like... WTF... ^^! But again, what was written in the reverse letter looked practically basic to me. Nothing truly "out there".
RyoHazuki84
俺が益荒男
Didn't Suzuki already address this?
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yeah, i think he said "it's just a game" lol
shengoro86
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I always just wrote it off as video game logic. I'm sure Shenmue isn't the only game that has people speaking languages they shouldn't know due to era/geography/etc.