Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

BruceWayne911

BruceWayne911

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Shenmue II
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Is Yu Suzuki out of touch on gaming standards or did he do the best he could with what little he had?

While I like Shenmue 3 and extremely grateful for the continuation of the series I can't ignore some of the obvious missteps. I know Yu does he's own thing but that might be a bad thing when looking objectively. The gaming industry has built upon alot of the innovations that Shenmue 1&2 had. I'm glad Shenmue 3 felt like a revist to the Dreamcast era but there were some elements that shouldn't have been there.

I'm kinda surprised that other industry figures that knew about Shenmue 3 didn't tell him that certain elements don't work anymore. While I can deal with it(being a fan) I can see why other gamers that are new to the series wouldn't like it. For Shenmue 4 I feel like Yu Suzuki should keep his ideas but also study other franchises like: GTA, Red Dead, Yakuza, etc.

What do you guys/gals think? Please be objective. I know we are all diehard fans.
 
You talk about him being out of touch and various elements not working anymore but fail to elaborate on what these elements are. What elements of S3 don’t work and how could they be improved? Do these elements not work because they fail to adhere to modern standards or are they just poorly written/implemented?
 
I think the fact that Yu has kept his distance from other titles like GTA, Yakuza etc has kept Shenmue grounded.
I'm not after a GTA or a Yakuza or anything else other people may think those games do better. If I want those games I'll play those games.
I wanted a Shenmue experience and that's what I felt I got with Shenmue 3.
 
tomboz said:
You talk about him being out of touch and various elements not working anymore but fail to elaborate on what these elements are. What elements of S3 don’t work and how could they be improved? Do these elements not work because they fail to adhere to modern standards or are they just poorly written/implemented?
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Stamina system, l feel like the health bar and stamina should've been separate.

Gambling system, using money to buy tokens then taking tokens to purchase prizes and then pawning prizes for money. This was not fun just give me money. Just a few.
 
BruceWayne911 said:
Gambling system, using money to buy tokens then taking tokens to purchase prizes and then pawning prizes for money. This was not fun just give me money. Just a few.
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Well this wasn’t so much of him being out of touch but to adhere to the Chinese censors. Here is what Yu said during Reboot Develop Blue conference-

In Japan there is "good" gambling, and "bad" gambling. In order to sell the game in China (which strictly censors games), Shenmue III features a similar system of "good" gambling not unlike how pachinko parlours work. Ryo cannot profit monetarily directly from gambling, but he can sell his prizes at pawn shops for more cash.
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BruceWayne911 said:
Is Yu Suzuki out of touch on gaming standards or did he do the best he could with what little he had?

While I like Shenmue 3 and extremely grateful for the continuation of the series I can't ignore some of the obvious missteps. I know Yu does he's own thing but that might be a bad thing when looking objectively. The gaming industry has built upon alot of the innovations that Shenmue 1&2 had. I'm glad Shenmue 3 felt like a revist to the Dreamcast era but there were some elements that shouldn't have been there.

I'm kinda surprised that other industry figures that knew about Shenmue 3 didn't tell him that certain elements don't work anymore. While I can deal with it(being a fan) I can see why other gamers that are new to the series wouldn't like it. For Shenmue 4 I feel like Yu Suzuki should keep his ideas but also study other franchises like: GTA, Red Dead, Yakuza, etc.

What do you guys/gals think? Please be objective. I know we are all diehard fans.
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Depends on what elements you are referring to. Personally, I never had an issue with the stamina system; the roundabout system with the tokens was to get around Chinese laws regarding gambling. In any case like I have said before, grand ambition needs grand resources to reinforce that ambition. Shenmue III to me has a lot of fun ideas that could have been more fleshed out if given the resources to do so. I cannot fault Suzuki for this, because I believe he put his best foot forward in an effort to please the fans with what he had.

Whether he's in touch with the contemporary gaming industry or not is irrelevant to me. His contributions to the industry have not changed. If anything, we need more forward thinking developers. Hideo Kojima for example, is more of a cinephile than a gamer, but it hasn't stopped his games from being revered by countless gamers.

Unfortunately there is a downside to being ambitious in that if you fail, you fail hard. After the original Shenmue games bombed, Suzuki for the lack of a better term was "moved upstairs" by SEGA to put it mildly. In the end, I think Suzuki simply needs the resources and manpower to make his vision a reality. This is what got us Shenmue, Daytona, Space Harrier, Virtua Fighter, etc not whether his sensibilities match current trends.
 
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BruceWayne911 said:
Stamina system, l feel like the health bar and stamina should've been separate.

Gambling system, using money to buy tokens then taking tokens to purchase prizes and then pawning prizes for money. This was not fun just give me money. Just a few.
Click to expand...
As Code name points out, gambling for cash in Asia is typically forbidden and this is the system used to get around it. This was likely implemented to secure a release in China (which ironically still hasn’t happened).

The stamina system was just poorly implemented. I don’t see that as being an issue caused by a lack of modernization (indeed, this is a new addition to the series), but more an ill conceived idea.
 
BruceWayne911 said:
Gambling system, using money to buy tokens then taking tokens to purchase prizes and then pawning prizes for money. This was not fun just give me money. Just a few.
Click to expand...

Dude, Yakuza does this as well. In Yakuza, you buy wooden tags just to play Oicho Kabu and Koi Koi and exchange those wooden tags for prizes...which you then sell at the pawn shop for cash if need be. This is standard practice in terms of Asia's wishy washy gambling laws.

"is Yu out of touch?"....a little bit, yes. I don't mean that in a negative way, but he made it clear that he doesn't play games. So of course he's only naturally gonna be a little out of touch with where the industry is today.

Outside of presentation woes that I have with SIII...I honestly can't say it bothers me too badly. I came for Shenmue and I got Shenmue as I know and love it. Sure, I wish his finger was a little more on the pulse in terms of presentation. But in terms of gameplay? Shenmue has its own cadence and its that cadence that I enjoy about it. I honestly don't want it to play like every other game on the market. We have enough of them as is. I'm perfectly fine with it being its own thing.

That said, I do wish the presentation of III had been a little better. There's definitely things it could learn in terms of presentation (most notably some of the awkward cut scene presentation of III)
 
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YS was always an arcade dev, and since he was always "out of touch", but that's what makes him unique.
I can't remember exactly the games he used as reference for Shenmue were really old school adventure games and rpgs.
The Shenmue gameloop is what it is, I don't want Shenmue being GTA or Yakuza (and RDR2 was good mostly because it was full of resources and good writers, the gameloop was quite boring except some mechanics).
I think that there's a very nice niche for Shenmue, the gap between walking sims/adventure games and open world action games, I just wish there were better writing/story/characters in S3, because I enjoyed a lot of the Shenmue core gameplay.
I do agree that the stamina system was a fail (but understand the logic for not cheesing training).
 
Yu isn’t a gamer. I think he’s a brilliant engineer, programmer, and technological visionary — however, I don’t think storytelling was ever his forte from day 1. Shenmue was a visual and technological powerhouse in 1999, however, there was never much of a story to begin with. Is he out of touch with modern gaming? Most definitely, but Shenmue 3 was really just intended for his niche following that enjoys the uniqueness of that experience.
 
I don't think Shenmue 3's issue is to be "out of touch". That's a criticize I refute when it comes to Shenmue 3. The stamina system isn't "outdated". There's actually a lot of AAA games that use that. The problem here comes from the balance between stamina usage and other stuff.

But then again, the problem of Shenmue III isn't its graphics, nor its stamina nor its slow gameplay.

It's just that the game is average/decent. It's just that the structure is uninspired.

Keep the same gameplay loop with a better balance, but give the game a better narrative structure, a better cast of characters, a better cutscene direction and a better story and you got a far better game.

Shenmue 3's issue isn't to be outdated. It's just to not be good. Slow doesn't mean outdated. There are very slow games with huge payoffs when it comes to story and quality. The problem of Shenmue 3 is that it has no payoffs and that it's just a decent game.
 
Well, since lack of story progression is really the only main issue I have with S3, I'd say yes and no. Yes, because I think he missed the mark with S3 for us fans in some ways. More people seemed to have wanted further story progression rather than the entire game only covering one topic that would probably amount to about 5% of the entire storyline of Shenmue. He chose to give us more mini games, gambling, forklift driving, introduce the horrendous fishing activity and other stuff that while it's creative, took away from the excitement of an 18 year wait to see more of the story. The mini game stuff isn't even really that enjoyable, which makes it worse. I'd also say no, that he is in touch a bit because he did keep the base of Shenmue in tact, the clunky controls, the outdated graphics, the general feel of it is Shenmue at heart. One thing that was done better by most games in 1999, as well as 2019 is most games give more story line progress than S3 did. When a crap game like WWE 2K20 has more storyline progression than a game that has been written to completion for 25 years now, that's an issue.
 
I guess you can say he's "out of touch" he doesn't play games and therefore probably doesn't keep up with current industry trends and design philosophies. This is why you get something like the terrible stamina and combat systems. Anyone who plays or has played a 3D fighting game knows that the combat system in Shenmue 3 is horrendous, its the most unintuitive combat system I have ever seen in a modern game.

There's also so many oversights and lack of quality of life things like not being able to skip dialogue (which they fixed), not being able to select to amount of items you want to buy/sell, there isn't even a slider for camera sensitivity, which is unheard of really.
So besides the story complaints, I think the design decisions are an even bigger problem, I just hope things are improved in Shenmue 4.
 
Interesting question. Not all modern gaming standards are good so there's that little thought.

He doesn't generally play games so thats a clear feeder into any design decisions.

What I liked was the no way points, barring a little notebook noise for side quests. So many games hold your hand too much these days so having to use my brain and do things myself was lovely. What they could do is introduce a classic & modern mode for a Shenmue 4. Classic is as we know it, no way points etc. Modern uses the map to guide you. That might work?

The stamina system should have been divided up into stamina and health imo. Less stamina could = less power for moves maybe.

Combat, it's fine. I personally enjoyed it and much more than some where its limited to little combos and nothing more. Sure it has its issues but there's much worse out there. Especially by today's standards.

The English VO needs improvement thats for sure and translation of script. That was below par for this game.
 
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I'd say his new team is still kinda of fresh off the boat when it come's to Yu's game design and Shenmue's ambitious scope. Now with more than 3 years of experience under their belt, assets to improved, & familiarity with Yu's rhythm...I trust that S4 will redeem S3. Bar any tragic outcomes/circumstances ofc.

On the other hand...Sega can redeem themselves and let Yu work with Am2 again. Give him access to a strong AAA backing and watch him spin another influential entry for this next decade.
 
Yes he is and I am glad that he does things his way. I hate 99 percent of modern games, with their blinking Icons, skills trees, side maps, big but empty meaning less Worlds and so forth. Not to Mention how terrible modern games are with their Story telling Methods. You have to listen to the Story and Play at the same time. I am too old for that. I want have Gameplay Elements and Story Elements separated. Not eveything at once.

There is not a single element in modern gaming that I would prefer over the 1990s philsophy.

But feel free to ignore me. I am just one of the old dudes that say everything was better in the past.

That Statement cannot applied to every aspect in life. In many ways things are better than they were in the past.

But not gaming. Gaming aged bad thanks to the social media. Today People want to so many things that the same time. Games are build that way with their overblown interfaces and so forth.
 
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