Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[Dehone]

But you could just buy chocolate, caramel, or chips to guarantee yourself a raffle ticket. You could also originally exchange winning cans for Shenmue Passport goodies before the servers went down, but the same cannot be said for Shenmue II obviously.

So yes, there was a point but not much of one. It was mostly just one of those weird little details that Yu Suzuki likes to put in these games.

I don't know what confuses you about face off so much. No, there is no real point to it. It's just a type of a rock paper scissors game that you can optionally play. It gives Ryo and Shenhua more personality. Yes, it's a bit silly but they are just 18 and 16 year old kids after all.

Also, it might have originally been intended to have an effect on the scrapped affinity system.


Well, that's fair enough and I can't really argue with it if that's how you feel. It's not the same thing that you were saying before though.

As for myself, I suppose that I do enjoy the tedium in Shenmue to an extent. It contributes to the life simulation and world building aspects of the games and it's all part of the special atmosphere that the series possesses (which I feel is still intact in Shenmue III). I will admit that Shenmue III does not have the payoff that the other games had though. Shenmue I & II were indeed the total package, while Shenmue III really excels in some areas but is really lacking in others.

I definitely do fall in the camp of people who are happy that Yu Suzuki is out of touch with "gaming standards." Then again, I also absolutely love Fumito Ueda's games and consider all three of them to be masterpieces. And they probably stray even further from gaming standards than Shenmue does.

I guess a chuckle, "what? Ouch" and "you're pretty good at this game" add to Ryos personality. Shenhua moreso. Didnt really need the inclusion of face off to show that. Also, maybe it's a Chinese thing, but what 18 or even 16 year old "kid" is playing rock, paper scissors?

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I think it was a leftover from whatever affinity system they had planned back in the day. Obviously we didn’t get the affinity system, but I feel like they wanted to give us a taste. Perhaps they were working on it and just gave up due to the budget, but decided to leave it in for variety.

 

[Creward]

Great thing about Shenmue is that you can enjoy for very different reasons. Some people are more in the story camp and others are more in the gameplay camp. I am more in the gameplay camp but I would lie if I say I am not interested to learn how the story ends.

It is still interesting although it follows the typical martial art movie tropes so far. Hero loses something, goes on a journey to get stronger and meet new People. It would be a small miracle if ends different than your typical martial arts movie. In the end hero gets strong enough to beat the cr**p out the villain, then goes home and lives a happy and peaceful long life.

Some some sort of dark revelation with the mirrors would be nice, and that Ryo has to sacrifice his or one others persons life to prevent the mystical chi you men demon (it was mentioned in s1 i believe) destroys the world.

But really doubt that Shenmue is getting that dark. So far it has been rather lighthearted.

I can understand that the people in the story camp are discontented though. Concerning the story s3 feels like a filler episode to speak in anime terms.

You are completly right that plotwise (what the story is) Shenmue is just a kungfu revenge story and thats it. However, where Shenmue shined in 1999 was in the narrative (How the story is presented), using a videogame to simulate a town, trying to put the player in Ryos shoes and reinforce the message on how He is alienating himself from his family and friend for just a useless revenge was great.

Which is one of the strong points of videogames as a medium, that interactivity can help to enhance those kind of stories a lot. Unfortunately, the AAA industry does not really like that direction because it is expensive to produce those kind of "simulated towns".

And those are kinda the reasons I believe Shenmue 3 is worse than Shenmue1 ans 2 since it kinda ditched the simulation approach to become more like a pseudo standard jrpg hub world.

 

[Sh3ppy]

or even 16 year old "kid" is playing rock, paper scissors?

I think one of the main purposes of it is to also convey how innocent Shenhua is because of her upbringing and surroundings. Most of the kids in the village seem quite young and I’m pretty sure she mentions it’s the new “craze” in Bailu. No issue with it myself.

 

[B-Man]

I guess a chuckle, "what? Ouch" and "you're pretty good at this game" add to Ryos personality. Shenhua moreso. Didnt really need the inclusion of face off to show that. Also, maybe it's a Chinese thing, but what 18 or even 16 year old "kid" is playing rock, paper scissors?

The kind of 18 year old that still avidly collects capsule toys?

 

[Sh3ppy]

The kind of 18 year old that still avidly collects capsule toys?

Lolol.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think it was a leftover from whatever affinity system they had planned back in the day. Obviously we didn’t get the affinity system, but I feel like they wanted to give us a taste. Perhaps they were working on it and just gave up due to the budget, but decided to leave it in for variety.

Funny how Affinity System was supposed to be a big thing and yet it was more or less implemented in both Shenmue I and II but not III.

 

[code l name]

Funny how Affinity System was supposed to be a big thing and yet it was more or less implemented in both Shenmue I and II but not III.

In what ways? The only examples I can think of:

Nozomi: Obviously you got a lot of additional information if you call her, but most of the optional cut scenes have nothing to do with your level engagement with her but is timing based from my recollection.

Fangmei: This obviously felt like the precursor to affinity system Suzuki talked about. You had optional conversation branches, which required constant engagement and lead to multi path side quest.

I mean in Bailu your interactions with Shenhua do feel noteworthy, I think that’s why I was so disappointed that level of interaction fell by way side in Niaowu (she becomes more of a vessel for developers to tell you about important locations/distractions in and around the city in your balcony chats). It almost felt like developers until certain story point couldn’t think of compelling reason to have her around.

 

[Sh3ppy]

Funny how Affinity System was supposed to be a big thing and yet it was more or less implemented in both Shenmue I and II but not III.

You mean stuff like Fangmei’s birthday for instance?

i do believe that Shenhua does react differently in 3 if you don’t speak to her much at night. So it’s there to a minimal extent.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Does anyone know how many cutscenes there are for people to tell you to check out the fortune tellers in town? There were so many times I thought I was going to come across an interesting event or cutscene and then I'd just end up hearing about fortune tellers yet again... That's something I forgot about.

 

[GhostTrick]

You mean stuff like Fangmei’s birthday for instance?

i do believe that Shenhua does react differently in 3 if you don’t speak to her much at night. So it’s there to a minimal extent.

Yeah, but you literally get new cutscenes and dialogs based on that affinity level.

 

[Dehone]

I think one of the main purposes of it is to also convey how innocent Shenhua is because of her upbringing and surroundings. Most of the kids in the village seem quite young and I’m pretty sure she mentions it’s the new “craze” in Bailu. No issue with it myself.

You do have a point. Kinda does show how innocent minded she is, especially when she sees something like gambling as the ultimate sin

 

[Dehone]

Given how big a deal was made of the affinity system and ther development of Ryo and Shenhuas relationship, I expected it to be a noticeable feature.

Something along the lines of Shenhua can go from being extremely cold to extremely friendly based on how much you talk to her, doing something the does or doesn't approve of(like gambling or getting in fights that you can avoid), letting her come along with you or stay behind on certain occasions, leaving the house in the morning without even talking to her. And when you have games where affinity systems are implemented decently to very well(Telltale TWD, mass effect, even a couple GTA games have it), it comes off as a huge disappointment if it actually was included in S3. A few extra lines of friendly aren't exactly what I had in mind.

 

[Jigen]

Yeah, but you literally get new cutscenes and dialogs based on that affinity level.

The old games Shenmue 1 specifically, just triggered event flags based on the weather and if a certain period of time passed after an event, talking to Nozomi did nothing, it only matters when you talk to her. In the case of Fangmei it was likely just checking flags based on what the player had done, say Ryo talks to Fangmei on this day at this time set a flag from false to true, no dynamic behavior really, I think Yu wanted a more dynamic system in 3, if you pay attention you really can see it somewhat, but it is certainly not working as intended. In 3 the more sidequests and main story you do the better the NPC's seem to react to you, in some instances, but I only really noticed it in Bailu among a very select number of NPC's.

(This is from my understanding, I've never actually looked at the code of Shenmue, I am only certain on how it works in Shenmue 1 because the old guide book tells you what triggers each of these secret events and the Nozomi thing is obvious, because her dialog only changes during specific story events or on specific dates or times, otherwise she just gives you a random canned response on the phone.)

EDIT: I might be wrong on Fangmei I forgot about some of the details on her specific event.

 

[Dehone]

Also, I thought the affinity system was supposed to impact how the people of Bailu interact with you. By the third day, everyone, aside from a couple of jealous dudes crushing on Shenhua, is your friend and every housewife wants to fuck you.

 

[B-Man]

So the affinity system is still in the game to a certain degree? I assumed that it was missing completely from the final product.

 

[Jigen]

So the affinity system is still in the game to a certain degree? I assumed that it was missing completely from the final product.

From what I can see in a VERY limited capacity, but it's basically conjecture I can't know for sure.

 

[shredingskin]

In the case of Fangmei it was likely just checking flags based on what the player had done, say Ryo talks to Fangmei on this day at this time set a flag from false to true, no dynamic behavior really

Fangmei does have an affinity meter that affects if Ryo says the right thing to her or not.
She changes behavior close to her birthday.
There are cutscenes outside dialogue that change her afinity.
She starts calling you Ryo.
There is a full on sidequest for her with a bunch of cutscenes.

It's far more complex than S3.

 

[code l name]

Given how big a deal was made of the affinity system and ther development of Ryo and Shenhuas relationship, I expected it to be a noticeable feature.

Something along the lines of Shenhua can go from being extremely cold to extremely friendly based on how much you talk to her, doing something the does or doesn't approve of(like gambling or getting in fights that you can avoid), letting her come along with you or stay behind on certain occasions, leaving the house in the morning without even talking to her.

I completely agree, the only element of the affinity system system seemed to be whether you engaged Shenhua in evening conversations and get optional dialogue, very much in the vein with calling Nozomi in Shenmue. To have a more robust system, there really needed to have the players decisions impact or effect your relationship with her.

Also like you mentioned the after initial day, majority of people in Bailu treat Ryo normally so the whole concept of your reputation effecting responses you get from towns folk appears to have fallen by way side.

 

[Jigen]

Fangmei does have an affinity meter that affects if Ryo says the right thing to her or not.
She changes behavior close to her birthday.
There are cutscenes outside dialogue that change her afinity.
She starts calling you Ryo.
There is a full on sidequest for her with a bunch of cutscenes.

It's far more complex than S3.

Yeah I said I could be wrong about that.