Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[LemonHaze]

That's absolutely insane! I wonder what dictates the humidity since that's not a variable that's noticeably present in the game apart from when it rains. I assume this is from S2, right?

Yeah it's from S2, there's still some PRNG goodies in S1, but IMO, S2 is the most advanced out of the two games in this context.

Yes, but its gameplay loop doesn't make it a genre of it's own. It just makes it a unique experience within a genre.

Also, QTEs are still QTEs. Of course Shenmue is going to do it a bit differently than a game that came before it, but now every game has QTEs. So much that it's looked at as a crutch nowadays. And even then, QTEs in Shenmue arent that different from most other QTEs past or present. The only thing to distinguish them is how fun they are and how frequently they are used.

I don't know, I think it kinda does. The gameplay loop dictates the genre in any game, in essence.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement that QTEs existed before Shenmue, but I just don't think they're ultimately the same thing. The QTEs in Dragon's Lair are very specific, for example. IMO, Shenmue QTEs are like a way of making cutscenes/events interactive, like the Zhangyu QTE.. and not just a way to actually play the game.

But either way, to each their own.

 

[GhostTrick]

Yep. It's amazing how some people believe their opinions to be fact, with no possibility that they could be wrong. The arrogance descended into laughable territory a long while back.

If we just stand on the "You have your opinion, I have mine" without any arguments, then we just end up with either no discussion at all or a massive circlejerk.

You can have an opinion, but you can also support it with arguments and facts.

 

[Peter]

You can have an opinion, but you can also support it with arguments and facts.

And yet there isn't much "facts" being offered.

 

[shredingskin]

The QTEs in Dragon's Lair were meant to be trial and error so people would keep wasting coins, it wasn't "quick timer" as much as a "remember the sequence".
There were some QTE games when laserdisk was all about doing "interactive video".

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Die Hard Arcade is definitely the closest to Shenmue with regard to QTEs. QTEs may have existed prior to Shenmue, but 8/10 cats (who care about things like QTEs) will cite Shenmue as the first game to popularize or create QTEs. That's not up for debate. It's really about who made the idea mainstream or who influenced others to follow the idea.

 

[iknifaugood]

And yet there isn't much "facts" being offered.

- S3 failed to court new players and divided an already small fanbase (fact)
- S3 failed to gain critical acclaim and elevate the series' (or Suzuki's) reputation in the wider industry (fact)
- S3 failed to make a substantial splash financially or in terms of market penetration, when it came out anyone who didn't already care wouldn't have even noticed (fact)
- Suzuki once again overspent and undersold with no concrete plan for the future, putting the series' life in jeopardy yet again (fact)
- By combining stamina and health as well as introducing several mechanics that only incentivize the player to grind and oversimplifying the combat system in a series ostensibly about martial arts all while shifting the focus away from story and introducing alarming continuity errors, Suzuki fundamentally changed the formula of Shenmue for the worse, demonstrating an alarming lack of competence as a designer (opinion)

 

[Creward]

Anyone here knows if Yu Suzuki has been following the fan community while developing Shenmue 3?

Seeing how the community can not really agree on what Shenmue core experience or genre is, I could see him messing up by trying to please to many dissonant views.

 

[Peter]

- S3 failed to court new players and divided an already small fanbase (fact)

Could you provide me with the player count, accompanied with the stats that they had played the previous 2 games? Until then, conjecture. Not fact.

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S3 failed to gain critical acclaim and elevate the series' (or Suzuki's) reputation in the wider industry (fact)

There was actually plenty of acclaim across various reviews, as well as extremely positive acclaim in said reviews. There were also negative reviews of the game, but again, could you demonstrate some hard statistics which show how the series was or wasn't elevated? Until then, conjecture. Not fact.

​

S3 failed to make a substantial splash financially or in terms of market penetration, when it came out anyone who didn't already care wouldn't have even noticed (fact)

Trying to pass off the sentence, "anyone who didn't already care wouldn't have even noticed" as a fact just made me laugh. I wouldn't even ask you try and prove that as nothing more than an opinion.

​

Suzuki once again overspent and undersold with no concrete plan for the future, putting the series' life in jeopardy yet again (fact)

Couple of things here, in the interests of facts of course. If you could show me the accounts from YSNET in relation to the development of Shenmue III that would be awesome. Also when you do, could you highlight the figures which indicate the overspend/undersold ratio? You will also need the sales figures, so grab them from Koch Media when you can.

What's that? You don't have any of those, just rumors and opinion?

Ah oks, sorry. I thought you were taking about facts.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Anyone here knows if Yu Suzuki has been following the fan community while developing Shenmue 3?

Seeing how the community can not really agree on what Shenmue core experience or genre is, I could see him messing up by trying to please to many dissonant views.

I doubt he does, not that I know him. He doesn't even care enough to play other people's video games. I prefer it that way. let him follow his own muse. Seems like a poor use of his time to bother with forums that consist of people arguing back and forth about minor plot points and whether or not eating 10 pieces of black garlic is realistic.

 

[Dehone]

Yes the great plateau is a tutorial so it's designed to teach you all the mechanics of the game (something Shenmue is very bad at imo), you never need to use it after that point. It's definitely part of the game design but a much bigger part is simply exploring the world and following clues that NPCs tell you. S2 lets you purchase minimaps and place markers but I don't think that fundamentally changes the progression of the game. But as you say, the two aren't really comparable.

(EDIT) Shenmue, especially S2, is about finding specific people in large urban environments with very few clues to lead you. This helps make Ryo feel in over his head and reckless but in S2 most of the NPCs will guide you to where you need to go or outright take you there. In Zelda, you have no way of locating the shrines without seeing them and physically travelling to them, so the map markers are more essential for things like that. The map also only fills in when you've discovered new areas and regions. It's designed to give the feeling of discovery and being on a huge adventure.


This is true, messing with the game design has a huge butterfly effect but it really comes down to how valuable talking to random NPCs, most of whom can't help you (at least in S1 and S3), is. I always thought Shenmue was designed like this as a relic of its age (it was still around the time where selling walkthroughs was a thing) so that's why there are so many easily miss-able things and empty journal pages if you don't talk to the right person at the right time etc.


I was more of a Lucasarts kid but the Sierra games I played, Gabriel Knight 1-3 and Kings Quest 6, had full VO (and pretty damn good VO imo, Gabriel Knight was voiced by Tim Curry).


It definitely wasn't a new genre and "full reactive eyes entertainment" doesn't mean anything. I actually think the marketing team's obsession with pitching Shenmue as a new thing you've never seen before (they deliberately say "it's not an RPG" in one of the trailers) was one of the main reasons people didn't gravitate to Shenmue as much. When companies claim to be doing something brand new it tends to backfire, especially because Shenmue is so slow paced.

(EDIT) Also, the notion that in Shenmue you could "open any cabinet and interact with any object" is very quickly debunked as the only area this applies to in the first game is the Hazuki residence. It's definitely not a big part of the game.

Yes, the most notable thing about the "find your own way/no hand holding/maps" thing, at least in 2 that kinda goes against it, is that NPCs can walk you across ther while map and to the building you need to go to. After that, it's just a matter of walking down some hallways or taking an elevator to the exact floor.

S1s map is small enough to where you dont need a map or guide. S2 is big enough to where you having a guide can be an option especially if you dont want the pacing to be slowed even more. That's why I understand why many open world games have guided paths. You cant have shenmue navigation expectations on a GTA, RDR, Fallout type of map. The pacing would grind to a halt.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Yeah. RDR2 without a map would make me commit suicide. I never had any idea where I was even 80 hours into the game... Of course that's partially because I relied on the map to get me everywhere. But there's also a finer point that games don't need to be thousands of square miles if those areas are empty and devoid of interest.

 

[LemonHaze]

I doubt he does, not that I know him. He doesn't even care enough to play other people's video games. I prefer it that way. let him follow his own muse. Seems like a poor use of his time to bother with forums that consist of people arguing back and forth about minor plot points and whether or not eating 10 pieces of black garlic is realistic.

As a developer myself, I actually really like this aspect of Suzuki. I think he is able to offer a unique perspective on gaming, considering he made some really good arcade games before Shenmue. It's pretty easy nowadays to give in to popular demand and to just follow suit with what everyone else is doing in the industry. The fact that Suzuki doesn't really indulge in games himself will undoubtedly allow him to not be as susceptible to this.

 

[Dehone]

Yeah it's from S2, there's still some PRNG goodies in S1, but IMO, S2 is the most advanced out of the two games in this context.



I don't know, I think it kinda does. The gameplay loop dictates the genre in any game, in essence.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement that QTEs existed before Shenmue, but I just don't think they're ultimately the same thing. The QTEs in Dragon's Lair are very specific, for example. IMO, Shenmue QTEs are like a way of making cutscenes/events interactive, like the Zhangyu QTE.. and not just a way to actually play the game.

But either way, to each their own.

I can respect that POV.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

As a developer myself, I actually really like this aspect of Suzuki. I think he is able to offer a unique perspective on gaming, considering he made some really good arcade games before Shenmue. It's pretty easy nowadays to give in to popular demand and to just follow suit with what everyone else is doing in the industry. The fact that Suzuki doesn't really indulge in games himself will undoubtedly allow him to not be as susceptible to this.

Agreed. I also don't think this is why the game has archaic menus or a poor GUI. Surely there are many individuals on the team who both play games and follow modern gaming conventions (just check out the credits thread for proof). I think the explanation for these issues is more complicated or maybe just as obvious as budgetary/time reasons.

 

[GhostTrick]

Could you provide me with the player count, accompanied with the stats that they had played the previous 2 games? Until then, conjecture. Not fact.



There was actually plenty of acclaim across various reviews, as well as extremely positive acclaim in said reviews. There were also negative reviews of the game, but again, could you demonstrate some hard statistics which show how the series was or wasn't elevated? Until then, conjecture. Not fact.



Trying to pass off the sentence, "anyone who didn't already care wouldn't have even noticed" as a fact just made me laugh. I wouldn't even ask you try and prove that as nothing more than an opinion.

Initial sales number from countries where we have datas shows twice lower sales compared to the remaster. So yeah, it's not conjecture. While there's no undisputable evidences about the total number, the fact that not only sales were twice lower in some countries for platforms where it could be tracked, that the game targeted less platforms (PS4/Epic instead of PS4/Steam/XBO), that the remaster was in a monthly bundle from Humble and is now on Gamepass, it's not too crazy to claim that Shenmue III indeed failed to draw in new players.

As for reviews, yes, there were good reviews. And also a lot of mixed ones. And some negative ones. As a whole, the reception was mixed. That's the word: Mixed. It wasn't elevated, it was downgraded. Lower scores across the board. It's not accounting perceived reception as a whole.

 

[shredingskin]

It's a testament to YS level design that looking today how small the scenes were, they felt incredibly big and even today people can "get lost" in those worlds (which is part of the part of Shenmue, it lets players drown in the world).

 

[mjqjazzbar]

That's something Yakuza also nails. You don't need to make a massive game world to make a game that's interesting. More open world series could learn a thing or two from these classic Sega franchises.

 

[GhostTrick]

It's a testament to YS level design that looking today how small the scenes were, they felt incredibly big and even today people can "get lost" in those worlds (which is part of the part of Shenmue, it lets players drown in the world).

Small in size, big in scale. That's what make Shenmue I and II so impressive.

That's something Yakuza also nails. You don't need to make a massive game world to make a game that's interesting. More open world series could learn a thing or two from these classic Sega franchises.

Indeed. I wished Shenmue III learned more from Shenmue I and II for instance.

 

[shredingskin]

The thing is that most open world games are the sandbox type, they don't require that density level/they opt to scatter different stuff around and make the maps more readable than interesting.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Small in size, big in scale. That's what make Shenmue I and II so impressive.



Indeed. I wished Shenmue III learned more from Shenmue I and II for instance.

I do think Bailu and Niaowu have too many 'open spaces' that serve little purpose, but I think that was done in service of herb hunting and Chobu chan. I also agree Bailu has too much gambling and too many mini games. I wish Bailu had been more story oriented and linear. I think that was the best approach for that kind of area. Make it all about training, learning, and interacting with the town, less about Lucky Hit and turtle racing.