Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

Agreed. I wasn't really bothered by the little Shenhua conversations to be honest. It was the hotel lady that got annoying after a while. She could have just done the "Don't tell me you don't have any cash" bit the first time and then they could have had your money be automatically deducted everyday after that.

I concur, thankfully even before the conversation patch you could always skip/forward her dialogue which I did every morning.
 
I liked face-off. It was odd but it showed a new side to Ryo which we haven't seen before. He was actually laughing, smiling, having fun and connecting with someone else. We havent really seen him do that since he lost his father. I thought it was good character development, as was all of the conversations he had with Shenhua.
Yeah, this game gave me the impression that Shenhua has brought out a different side of Ryo and that just maybe he's beginning to lose his lust for revenge a little. You also learn a lot about him through those conversations and that, along with Face Off, makes him feel more human.

Especially if you had no money to pay her lol.
I still need to try spending all my money some time to see what she says...

Oh yeah I think the Shenhua talks were one of the most quintessential "Shenmue" things about 3.
To be clear, I was referring to the automatic conversations you have with her every morning before you leave. The optional conversations you can have with her at night in Bailu Village not only didn't bother me, but I thought they were excellent.
 
I do think Yu somehow failed as a designer. Although I have yet to play all his games (hopefully we get a rip of Psi Phy someday), it likely reaches the top 3 of his weakest works, and I feel sorry to write this.

He made a mistake with the vision he picked for the game. You can enumerate all the little things that went wrong (and good) in Shenmue 3 but the problem is global, the problem is design.

In a perfect world, he should have foreseen the consequences of throwing his forces on expanding the scale. This is his job. Meanwhile, Shenmue 3 eventually lacks of taste and emotion.

Sure the game was (rather) fun, but it's not like the fun was topnotch. We loved Shenmue 1&2 because there was a great sense of balance. Shenmue 3? The take is different.

Not only it had design issues but few times it didn't feel a game fully minded by Yu. Was the load of humor really his motivation? I appreciate the jokes but the gap with the original Shenmue was too blatant here.

The way Kickstarter works, from the stretch goals system to the natural pressure from fans & backers, it certainly produced some level of determinism on the whole design. Was Shenmue 3 planned as a (short) interactive movie at first? It might explain plenty of things regarding the final product.

The truth is that, I enjoyed the game but I already forgot my experience. I still have some reminiscence of the ending and the yellow/green of Bailu but honestly that's all. As a result, I'm not sincerly interested in Shenmue 4. Intuitively, it's like my mind fails to view Shenmue 3 as a canon sequel.

I just think there was room to do better with simple decisions.
 
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I do think Yu somehow failed as a designer. Although I have yet to play all his games (hopefully we get a rip of Psi Phy someday), it likely reaches the top 3 of his weakest works, and I feel sorry to write this.

He made a mistake with the vision he picked for the game. You can enumerate all the little things that went wrong (and good) in Shenmue 3 but the problem is global, the problem is design.

In a perfect world, he should have foreseen the consequences of throwing his forces on expanding the scale. This is his job. Meanwhile, Shenmue 3 eventually lacks of taste and emotion.

Sure the game was (rather) fun, but it's not like the fun was topnotch. We loved Shenmue 1&2 because there was a great sense of balance. Shenmue 3? The take is different.

Not only it had design issues but few times it didn't feel a game fully minded by Yu. Was the load of humor really his motivation? I appreciate the jokes but the gap with the original Shenmue was too blatant here.

The way Kickstarter works, from the stretch goals system to the natural pressure from fans & backers, it certainly produced some level of determinism on the whole design. Was Shenmue 3 planned as a (short) interactive movie at first? It might explain plenty of things regarding the final product.

The truth is that, I enjoyed the game but I already forgot my experience. I still have some reminiscence of the ending and the yellow/green of Bailu but honestly that's all. As a result, I'm not sincerly interested in Shenmue 4. Intuitively, it's like my mind fails to view Shenmue 3 as a canon sequel.

I just think there was room to do better with simple decisions.
I disagree fully, I think design is the best part, the game systems are the best aspect of 3, it improved miles over 2 imo. It lacks in my view in story, thematics and atmosphere (But still has these things). Where as 2 was the most balanced and 1 was the best with story and atmosphere.
 
and I don’t buy the argument we need to criticize the hell out of it so Yu Suzuki listens. He’s gonna make the game he’s gonna make and there’s nothing any of us can say or do to change that.
No, he's not going to make the game he wants to make. He literally didn't make S3 from 2002-2015. If no one but a very small niche group of people don't enjoy his games, then he won't make them any more. That's the problem. I imagine the niche is even smaller now after S3.
I liked face-off.
I can't respect that. Face off is one of the most bizarre and awkward things I've ever encountered in a game. It's possible the point of it was completely missed by the poor facial animations, but I don't know... I just don't see anything meaningful there. It's essentially rock paper scissors but there's no explanation why they make those faces, and no one else in the village plays the game despite Shenhua saying it's a popular game. It needs an explanation, imo. Maybe it was just easier than doing animations for the hands?

He was actually laughing, smiling, having fun and connecting with someone else. We havent really seen him do that since he lost his father. I thought it was good character development, as was all of the conversations he had with Shenhua.
We don't know what Ryo was like before Shenmue 1. I'm thinking Ryo is who he is throughout the entirety of S1 and S2, and the things seen in S3 seem out of place and out of character. I don't really view scrunching his nose and making silly faces for no reason as character development.
 
s3 is gimped by limited resources and fresh new team talent. Suzuki was handicapped, but still manage to deliver us half-way through the saga with what he had to work with...imo is commendable. With foundations laid, the next game will deliver. Just as s1 laid foundations for s2 I believe s3 will be just as much of a stepping rock for a great s4. Bar any tragedies.
 
I agree with most of you guys when you say the game is Shenmue and that's what you wanted. My question was more aimed the viewpoint of someone who isn't a fan.

Yes he is out of touch. He always made games 'his' way and in most of his games had realism as the main focus. Going on a road trip across Europe as research for Outrun and also putting the game in an arcade unit shaped like a car, with speakers behind your shoulders in the 80s. A sit-on and movable bike for Hangon. F355 challenge was used by Ferrari as a simulator as it was so realistic. Virtual fighter was supposed to look real in 3d. Shenmue was basically a life simulator.

His approach has always been out of touch, hence why his games are different and almost always amazing.

Changing his style now would be do doing a disservice to himself and Shenmue fans.
s3 is gimped by limited resources and fresh new team talent. Suzuki was handicapped, but still manage to deliver us half-way through the saga with what he had to work with...imo is commendable. With foundations laid, the next game will deliver.

Following my line of logic above, this is the only reason, i think, that S3 wasn't as realistic as his previous games. In interviews leading up to release he mentioned that some of his team liked the Disney/Shrek style of character and that's why the style changed in some aspects. I can't imagine that would have happened if he had a larger team or had that team for a longer period of time. Remember it took him a long time to get a team together that could develop something he was happy with. Could be that was one of many compromises the budget forced.

Also the stamina 'issue' is basically an attempt to make you walk instead of run and enjoy the environments more and/or allow the next areas NPCs to load in a reasonable time. Nothing wrong with that.
 
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Personally, I loathed your video. I was stuck in Bailu village grinding at the time I watched your video. To see you talk about how it's one of the best games you've ever played was infuriating because the experience I was having was in no way fun. I get it if you like Shenmue 3, that's perfectly fine. But to say a game with really bad design and tons of padding is the greatest game you've ever played, that's just not a pleasant video to watch. I'm one of the people who gave your video a thumbs down. Your video is what lead me to the belief that Shenmue 3 will divide fans of Shenmue from irrational fanboys of Shenmue. I've played a lot of bad games in my life time and many of them I've enjoyed, but I'm not going to say games with bad game design are the best I've ever played.

I think you should watch it again, just to be sure. In fact, let's *all* watch it again.
 
Maybe it is, because I am a rather new fan, did not Play the Shenmue on the Dreamcast until early 2018, but I really do not get the hardcore criticism of some fans here. Maybe they too high expecatations. Shenmue 3 is a good a game. It is a modern day Shenmue. That's a small Miracle if you ask me. Of course it is not perfect, it has some rought edges, and the Gameplay is not catered for People that want to rush through the game.

it is not that type of game that hold your Hand, while going through. That is the reason why I love Shenmue . It is the antithesis of modern gaming, which I do not like at all. I can say much more bad Things About your average modern game than good Things.

But my 2018 Point of view is different than the Point of view of the old fans. I knew back then About Shenmue, but thanks to playstation 2 hype I abandoned my Dreamcast in late 2000 so I never played Shenmue on the DC until 2018.

So I will never know how it felt to play Shenmue back then. Maybe it felt like the Epitome of Mainstream AAA gaming back then. I will never know.

From this Point of view S3 might be a dispointment indeed, because it has Nothing to do with AAA games. A factor that I love, but other People might have a different opinion About it.
 
I disagree fully, I think design is the best part, the game systems are the best aspect of 3, it improved miles over 2 imo. It lacks in my view in story, thematics and atmosphere (But still has these things). Where as 2 was the most balanced and 1 was the best with story and atmosphere.



There's one thing better than 2. How the system integrate both gameplay loops, which is money and levelling. But that's all.

But for the rest... I see Shenmue III inferior in every other ways save for the tank controls.

Maybe it is, because I am a rather new fan, did not Play the Shenmue on the Dreamcast until early 2018, but I really do not get the hardcore criticism of some fans here. Maybe they too high expecatations. Shenmue 3 is a good a game. It is a modern day Shenmue. That's a small Miracle if you ask me. Of course it is not perfect, it has some rought edges, and the Gameplay is not catered for People that want to rush through the game.

it is not that type of game that hold your Hand, while going through. That is the reason why I love Shenmue . It is the antithesis of modern gaming, which I do not like at all. I can say much more bad Things About your average modern game than good Things.

But my 2018 Point of view is different than the Point of view of the old fans. I knew back then About Shenmue, but thanks to playstation 2 hype I abandoned my Dreamcast in late 2000 so I never played Shenmue on the DC until 2018.

So I will never know how it felt to play Shenmue back then. Maybe it felt like the Epitome of Mainstream AAA gaming back then. I will never know.

From this Point of view S3 might be a dispointment indeed, because it has Nothing to do with AAA games. A factor that I love, but other People might have a different opinion About it.



I reject the argument that some people disliked Shenmue III because it's not AAA nor that it's "a unique game".

In fact, what I see from most disappointed people is common: They're also used ti play a lot of unique niche games. Whenever they're old fans like @Yokosuka or me (even though I discovered Shenmue in 2007, so it wasn't AAA anymore) or new fans I introduced in 2019 to the serie, the criticism remains similar: It's lacking in the most important department: The character developpement, the set pieces, the feelings but I'll go even as far as the narration and the clever game design ideas integrating gameplay ideas into cutscenes.

Shenmue III has none of that. It's a superficial Shenmue game and I'll go as far as saying it's as superficial as many AAA games which tick some gameplay boxes but has no depth nor personnality.

Like my french buddy, I retain nothing from Shenmue III. It almost feels like a filler
 
What? Shenmue 3 has more character development than s1 and 2 together. S1 and 2 together featured Robo Ryo. in 3 Ryo starts to act more human when interacting with Shenhua. The Scenes in Shenhua's house, are great for example.

And what is wrong with the set peaces? they are shenmue like as ever.

I played all 3 games in a row . and cannot get what you are up to. But well tastes are different.
 
s3 is gimped by limited resources and fresh new team talent. Suzuki was handicapped, but still manage to deliver us half-way through the saga with what he had to work with...imo is commendable. With foundations laid, the next game will deliver. Just as s1 laid foundations for s2 I believe s3 will be just as much of a stepping rock for a great s4. Bar any tragedies.



At some point, when you're a director, you're also supposed to give directions. A fresh new team doesn't excuse the lack of talent. There are people pulling some really talented stuff on their first try, and alone.

And while I can see S3 being a stepping stone for 4 like S1 was to S2... Shenmue I was actually a great game, with great moments. I cant think any moment in the entirety of 3 that can come close to that bike scene. Because 3 fails to understand what 1 and 2 managed perfectly: Integrating gameplay into narration and narration into gameplay.

You know why that bike sequence is amazing ? Because it happens at a moment where the player is familiar with Dobuita but is asked to go there at a moment where the player is completly unfamiliar with it: After bed time. While it's a familiar place, it feels completly different and hostile because of that. That's clever. And I'm not even touching the part of that cutscene which is just amazing. Even today, despite the visual gap, it's just a better cutscene than 99% of the stuff you see in 3.
 
There's one thing better than 2. How the system integrate both gameplay loops, which is money and levelling. But that's all.

But for the rest... I see Shenmue III inferior in every other ways save for the tank controls.
Well, you're allowed to be wrong, I guess.
 
What? Shenmue 3 has more character development than s1 and 2 together. S1 and 2 together featured Robo Ryo. in 3 Ryo starts to act more human when interacting with Shenhua. The Scenes in Shenhua's house, are great for example.

And what is wrong with the set peaces? they are shenmue like as ever.

I played all 3 games in a row . and cannot get what you are up to. But well tastes are different.



Ah yes, we reached the point where, to defend Shenmue III because this game cant stand in its own, we shit on Shenmue I and II with bad faith argument.
I'll be honest with you: There's no character developpement or interesting characters in Shenmue I and II. Ryo never struggle with the death of his father in the entirety of 1. We never see him manage his life and his grief altogether. All those segments about Nozomi and Ryo never existed. Tom never existed. That motorbike set piece was bad. Shenmue II also never had Ryo growing up in the game, through the Wude and Xiuying teaching. There's never any developpement for Fangmei and her side quest never existed. All the interactions and chara dev between Rei and Ryo is my imagination. CD4 is a myth and Ryo never smile. Same for that Campfire song.

Good thing Shenmue III raised the bar with its amateurish cutscenes and its amazing character cast such as Broom Girl, Boat Master and Fat Martial Artist.
 
Well, you're allowed to be wrong, I guess.


I'm also allowed to explain why. As stated before, the cutscene direction, despite being 20 years earlier, is far better. The gameplay integration into the narration is also far more brillant. The set pieces are more numerous and better made. The cast of characters and their developpement is also wealthier. The battle system is far superior. The physic is also far superior (on a Dreamcast hardware, mind you). The writing and soundtrack usage also is better.
 
I am too old to defend games Ghost Trick. I am just discusing About games. And I do not see any character development in 1 and 2. There is more character development in 3 than in 1 and 2. At least for me. And you are free to hate S3. I like it. And I do not care much if you do not like it at all or not.

As I said tastes are different.

I also do not like Red Dead Redemption 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, GTA and every other modern day Story driven games People are that crazy about. I cannot see the appeal of These games. But People are free to like whatever they want.

As I am free to dislike everything.

And we are riding a dead hourse at this Point. Every opinion has been exchanged. Some People like S3 and others do not.
 
I am too old to defend games Ghost Trick. I am just discusing About games. And I do not see any character development in 1 and 2. There is more character development in 3 than in 1 and 2. At least for me. And you are free to hate S3. I like it. And I do not care much if you do not like it at all or not.

As I said tastes are different.

I also do not like Red Dead Redemption 2, Horizon Zero Dawn, GTA and every other modern day Story driven games People are that crazy about. I cannot see the appeal of These games. But People are free to like whatever they want.

As I am free to dislike everything.

And we are riding a dead hourse at this Point. Every opinion has been exchanged. Some People like S3 and others do not.


Yes, so just as I said, deflect and shit on other things because we both know S3 cant stand on its own. Because otherwise you could've give me exemples of good chara dev in S3, other than "Ryo is smiling !" (He did in 2 too). Instead you prefer syaing "Robo ryo in i and ii" which I demonstrated to be false.
 
The post about "fan input" in the S4 forum made me think about what/how sees Shenmue.
Does he really sees the game as a storytelling medium ? Or the story is just the connection to make the player immerse in that virtual world ?
For me it's obvious that YS focused in the gameplay first, world building second and story third.
When asked about what he would like to add to the game YS always talks about random programming challenges like noodles expanding, snails racing, but not even a peep about story (and I remember interviews about YS forgetting some plot related stuff, it was with Shenmue-Master I believe, I don't remember the exact stuff).
It's not like since Shenmue "died" YS tried to do visual novels, wrote books, manga or did movies, he always cared about game design.
And it made me realize that while I do like the freedom, the gameloop of just asking around in this virtual world, I honestly don't care about all the other systems (hell, even the fighting system that is quite integral to Shenmue's journey I could do without). And what excites me is not necessarily what rocks Yu's boat.
I never cared about pawnshops, gambling, gatchapon, arcades, jobs, those were nice bonuses that added to the experience, and would be kinda missed, but not in detriment of the story for me. I wouldn't mind a Shenmue without ingame money (it made some sense in SII, but in S3 it felt... tacked in for some reason).
Maybe his vision was always of making this lifelike world and trying to make it as compelling as possible, and I have to respect that.
 
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