Not much story progression? (Spoilers)

Except one of those is the beginning of the story and one of those is picking up in the middle after a 20 year wait, so they are not equal
I said they were structurally similar, not "equal".

How S3 compares (to S1 and S2) is steeped heavily in expectation, as proven by your mention of the 20 year wait.

Personally, I was hoping for a return to something closer to S1 (it's my GOAT, after all), and I don't think the long wait should've been a factor used to determine "how much story" would be in S3. That doesn't mean they got the balance right -- again, it's pretty clear things got cut.

I know not everyone agrees; people wanted something closer to S2, which basically boils down to a more cinematic game that turns up the heat quicker and has more of that Hong Kong movie vibe.

Some people just wanted to get as close to the end as possible in a single game, which, again, I disagree with, but each to their own. We're not about to change each other's opinions on this stuff.
 
I said they were structurally similar, not "equal".

How S3 compares (to S1 and S2) is steeped heavily in expectation, as proven by your mention of the 20 year wait.
While expectation definitely plays a role; that's true of nearly every sequel. There was hardly a 20 year wait between MGS1 and 2, for instance, and that didn't stop people from being divided on that game (one side is wrong though). I shouldn't have mentioned the 20 year gap because it really doesn't affect what I was pointing out, which is that the third chapter in a series should not be structured in the same way the first chapter was. S1 can take it slow because it's the Shire: we can be introduced to characters who don't matter to the broader narrative and we don't expect lots of narrative twists because the plot isn't moving yet. It would be really weird if Two Towers spent a ton of time on something like the Shire.

I know not everyone agrees; people wanted something closer to S2, which basically boils down to a more cinematic game that turns up the heat quicker and has more of that Hong Kong movie vibe.

Some people just wanted to get as close to the end as possible in a single game, which, again, I disagree with, but each to their own. We're not about to change each other's opinions on this stuff.
Yea obviously this is different from story structure. S3 was always going to start off slow by virtue of the fact that Bailu Village is a secluded place, if you like the chill vibe then that's fine. But I'm sure you'd agree that it would be weird for Ryo to get his ass kicked by Lan Di at the end of S3, three stooges himself for round 2 (3?) at the cliff temple, and get his ass kicked again at the beginning of S4 so that now he can begin his true character arc.
 
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I shouldn't have mentioned the 20 year gap because it really doesn't affect what I was pointing out, which is that the third chapter in a series should not be structured in the same way the first chapter was.
Many sequels follow the exact same structure for every game. There's no written rule; you just didn't like the execution of it. Again, I'm not saying it was flawless -- Niaowu was too long and meandering, the end feels condensed/rushed due to cut content etc.

But I'm sure you'd agree that it would be weird for Ryo to get his ass kicked by Lan Di at the end of S3, three stooges himself for round 2 (3?) at the cliff temple, and get his ass kicked again at the beginning of S4 so that now he can begin his true character arc.
But we actually have no idea what's going to happen in S4, so this hypothetical scenario in which Ryo fights Lan Di again, presumably towards the start, seems like jumping the gun. Also, the context and execution of the scenario is everything. It's impossible to say if it would be "good" or "bad" without knowing everything surrounding it.

The expectations that people have were formed by what the first 2 games gave us.
Thank you for explaining how expectations work :coffee:
 
This is true but that doesn’t automatically excuse what it was replaced with. I can’t imagine how adding another area would have made the quests in Bailu and Niaowu any better.
The story content being kept in wouldn't have automatically made the game perfect. And the impression I get is less they "replaced" the cut story content with the nonsensical Booty Slam Subplot and more just that they couldn't properly finish the actually important bits without it feeling even MORE rushed, whereas, the Butt Slam plot was probably already mostly "finished". The story was never perfect. It's just that it felt a lot more "unimportant" as a result of the plot being cut down.

I don't know if this was the right or wrong decision. Perhaps they could've found a way to salvage the story beats of Bisha without needing to make it into an entire area. Or there really was no way but to skip to the Lan Di Fight without it being muddled and rushed. Or maybe skipping to the Lan Di smackdown (IMO one of the stories better scenes) was their idea of salvaging it.

Frankly, I think most people have already figured that the story was cut. It just seems people are more interested in talking about if it was intentionally meant to be baren or not. IMO I don't think the plot was meant to focus entirely on the relationship between Shenhua and Ryo from the start, the decision to have it be "slower" in comparison to S2 was probably decided early on (My guess is as a way to explore Ryo and Shen's relationship without being bogged down by "action" stuff), but not to the extent that the final game is. I agree with the idea of Shenmue games generally have a lot of "filler" (tho it's debatable how much of the filler in S1 and 2 really was filler IMO) until the last act giving you a lot of major revelations.

In S3's case, the major revelation was supposed to be another revelation about the mirror (we were supposed to learn the meaning of the prophecy) and the implication of a civil war on the villain side + Lan Di possibly being misled about who killed his daddy. (I think that last part is going to be something of a ruse, IMO it would lose a lot of nuances if it wasn't actually a cycle of revenge.) The last two things got in there in CliffsNotes format, but da first one is probably being saved for S3.

But that's just speculation on my part.

Addendum: I thought it was only speculated that the old castle replaced the Baisha siege, but it was straight-up confirmed in the Kickstarter updates (Look in the wonderful "what have we learned" thread in the Shenmue 4 section for more info...that's where I got 90% of my information from), where it mentions things that didn't show up in the actual level. Like an "infiltration" section. Weird. And disappointing.
 
I agree with the idea of Shenmue games generally have a lot of "filler" (tho it's debatable how much of the filler in S1 and 2 really was filler IMO)

S1 was certainly filler in the port. The "Where are Mad Angels?" quest had functionally no other purpose than keeping the player busy until some timed events happen.

The plot in that part was precisely the same in Shenmue 3 but for some reasons, the latter didn't work as well. When the Mad Angels clashed Ryo, you had the feel of being at war. When the Red Snakes do, you get tickles. The gap is pretty edifying.

So I agree that adding story content alone may not have guaranteed the appropriate improvement. Shenmue 4 is going to need a significant brainstorming if YSnets wants to tell an engaging story.
 
S1 was certainly filler in the port. The "Where are Mad Angels?" quest had functionally no other purpose than keeping the player busy until some timed events happen.

The plot in that part was precisely the same in Shenmue 3 but for some reasons, the latter didn't work as well. When the Mad Angels clashed Ryo, you had the feel of being at war. When the Red Snakes do, you get tickles. The gap is pretty edifying.

So I agree that adding story content alone may not have guaranteed the appropriate improvement. Shenmue 4 is going to need a significant brainstorming if YSnets wants to tell an engaging story.
The Mad Angels make the Red Snakes look like little bitches. I don't see the Red Snakes giving anyone concrete boots!
 
Frankly, I find conversations about why the writing of Shenmue 3 is that way to be far more interesting than "here's reason #462 why it's a big pile of shit." I think most of everyone agrees that the stories disappointing. The Baisha section not being cut up probably wouldn't single-handly fix that, but I imagine it would've given us more to chew on than "Why does Ryo keep on getting beat up every time he encounters another martial art/a buff person?"

maybe we would've actually fought Niao Sun and Ryo would've gotten his ass kicked by her.
Looking back, if this was a thing (and the only reason I believe that is because of the mention of her using a "Mantis" fighting style in interviews and being called a "boss"), I feel it would more plausible if Ryo and her fight, but something interrupted them before they could finish it.
Getting your ass get whipped by TWO You Men bosses within a short amount of time would've felt repetitive as hell, more likely she would've arranged to have Shenhua brought out by a guard during the middle of the fight, with the threat that she would be murdered on the spot if he didn't give up the Mirror.
However, it's unclear, and unless there are things in the files for her fighting animations, this was probably scrapped early on, maybe to give Sun more of a manipulator feel.

Ryo would probably still lose to Niao IMO, despite her lack of fighting scenes at the moment, considering she's on an equal position in the Chi You Men to Di. And I doubt they would let someone get to that position without a lot of fight training, assuming you even CAN get there without beating the shit out of things. Sure, probably not to the level of Lan Di, but I doubt she's merely a pretty face, a proper fight would be easily described as "Ryo Vs. Xiuying 2."
 
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When the Mad Angels clashed Ryo, you had the feel of being at war. When the Red Snakes do, you get tickles. The gap is pretty edifying.
I think it feels more personal the first time round, as the death of Iwao is still fresh in the player's mind, and the Mad Angels feel like the only direct connection. They're feared by characters you actually know like Goro. They beat up your friend, Mark. They kidnap your pseudo-girlfriend who you've been building a relationship with the whole game (even if it is a well-worn trope), and they're a threat to the Chens, who are your allies.

By comparison, the thugs in S3 (let's just combine the Red Snakes and Blue Spiders because functionally they're identical) do a lot of damage, their presence is adequately felt in Bailu and Niaowu, but your personal connection to them is lacking. They kidnap a character you've never met, they terrorise people you don't know, and the connection to Lan Di doesn't really exist in the same way. This could've been remedied with more characterisation, but alas. I guess technically they kidnap Shenhua, but that felt more like Niao-sun's trickery, which I actually liked.

I'll give them credit for some cool designs in the two mob bosses, a really awesome chase sequence, effective environmental design (the trashed shrines, for example) and the interrogation scene. Unfortunately their antics just weren't as impactful due to the lack of supporting characters.
 
The Red Snakes let you go after the boss beats you up, I think 2 times!! 2 more times in Bailu, they must be the lamest gang I've ever seen. Like children LOL At least they should robb you or something. "Get some training" XD The mad angels as far as I remember would murder you, The Heavens; I don't think were murderers? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
The Red Snakes let you go after the boss beats you up, I think 2 times!! 2 more times in Bailu, they must be the lamest gang I've ever seen. Like children LOL At least they should robb you or something. "Get some training" XD The mad angels as far as I remember would murder you, The Heavens; I don't think were murderers? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
That's about right. The Heavens were considered dangerous but not murderers from my understanding. Yellow Head's were considered more heavy handed in that regard.
 
The Red Snakes let you go after the boss beats you up, I think 2 times!! 2 more times in Bailu, they must be the lamest gang I've ever seen. Like children LOL At least they should robb you or something. "Get some training" XD The mad angels as far as I remember would murder you, The Heavens; I don't think were murderers? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I think the "train harder" aspect of S3 works from a gameplay perspective, as becoming a better martial artist is basically the whole point of the game. However, the narrative justification is very weak, and plays into the idea that S3 is like an amusement park version of Shenmue, where everything -- even the story -- is more "gamey".
 
I think the "train harder" aspect of S3 works from a gameplay perspective, as becoming a better martial artist is basically the whole point of the game. However, the narrative justification is very weak, and plays into the idea that S3 is like an amusement park version of Shenmue, where everything -- even the story -- is more "gamey".
Exactly my thoughts, I've always said Shenmue III feels like a huge tech demo showing off the concept of Shenmue's F.R.E.E gameplay rather than a full blown Shenmue game.

Before you say it I know you don't subscribe to that idea I understand that you're just saying you can see how that aspect of the Red Snakes plays into that idea. Though I, myself subscribe to Shenmue III fully feeling like that.
 
Exactly my thoughts, I've always said Shenmue III feels like a huge tech demo showing off the concept of Shenmue's F.R.E.E gameplay rather than a full blown Shenmue game.

Before you say it I know you don't subscribe to that idea I understand that you're just saying you can see how that aspect of the Red Snakes plays into that idea. Though I, myself subscribe to Shenmue III fully feeling like that.
I don't think it feels like a tech demo, but I do think it feels more gamey than the previous games, and I think that's mostly by design (whether we may agree with that decision or not!) :coffee:
 
Many sequels follow the exact same structure for every game. There's no written rule; you just didn't like the execution of it.
Many/most sequels are standalone stories, not one story split into X number of parts like Shenmue and there are rules for how stories are structured that, when broken, lead to some of the problems seen in S3. A famous example is the Dark Knight Rises where the point of the first act is about how Batman's body has been broken after years of crime fighting and he needs to fix it to be able to fight a new threat and then what happens? His back is broken and he has to spend the second act fixing his body to be able to fight the new threat. That's a fundamentally flawed story structure. It doesn't make it a bad movie, it doesn't even necessarily make it poorly written, but it means the story was not structured as well as it could have been and leads to a feeling of redundancy and deja vu that otherwise would not be there.

But we actually have no idea what's going to happen in S4, so this hypothetical scenario in which Ryo fights Lan Di again, presumably towards the start, seems like jumping the gun.
Obviously. I was just pointing out that if that happened, that would be an example of what I'm taking about in terms of poor structure.

Also, the context and execution of the scenario is everything. It's impossible to say if it would be "good" or "bad" without knowing everything surrounding it.
This is true but I'm assuming that we already know most of the context. Ryo got his ass kicked by Lan Di and wants to immediately fight him again without any additional training... this seems like the set up for the exact same thing to happen again (though, again, we don't know that for sure, but I was also pointing this out because someone said that S3 sets up a ton for S4).
 
Not enough information is known on what was planned for the intended story progression, so it’s just a matter of your personal opinion

I mean, in literally the first ever official S3 video (at e3) the game was sold as “shenmue 3 will give you the story you have dreamed of”.

I don’t think it is even close to being about personal opinion that the game was a disappointment story-wise.
 
I mean, in literally the first ever official S3 video (at e3) the game was sold as “shenmue 3 will give you the story you have dreamed of”.

I don’t think it is even close to being about personal opinion that the game was a disappointment story-wise.
There's this.

I think my biggest beef is the fact that after all this time, the 15 year hiatus, all the positive coverage from the kickstarter, now was the time to show everyone that "hey, we're gonna make the most of this and get this train rolling" so to speak. All eyes were on Shenmue and it was a huge opportunity to bring people in and show something great. Even if the game wasn't great for most people, maybe you could have grabbed some people with some compelling story telling, but even that wasn't there.

In my personal opinion, I think Shenmue 3 will be one of the biggest missed opportunities I've ever seen in gaming.
 
It's a bit delusional to think Shenmue was ever going to grab a lot of people's attention. It didn't with the first two titles, why would it do so with the third? It was able to bring in some new fans, but that's it.

And I feel Shenmue 3 was made literally just to get Ryo out of the cave after all these years. It's one big fan service.
The job is done and now we can hopefully move onto Shenmue 4.
 
It's a bit delusional to think Shenmue was ever going to grab a lot of people's attention. It didn't with the first two titles, why would it do so with the third? It was able to bring in some new fans, but that's it.
I know your intent is to attack me but didn't Yu recently say he wanted to streamline S4 so it could be appeal to more people? Is Yu delusional because he wants his game to be more successful than just appealing to us?

I don't know if the series could have appealed to more people, or if it ever will, but if there was a time for it to do so Shenmue 3 would have been it. Now the hurdle would be to overcome the poor reception of Shenmue 3 and the bad taste left in people's mouths from the Epic deal, which is a pretty big task if you ask me.

It's one big fan service.
I don't want fan service. I don't want to be pandered to. I want him to continue the series to the best of his abilities and tell the story they all worked on when they started Shenmue.
 
I'm not sure about streamlining. More I took from it was that Shenmue 4 would give people the choice to hammer through and a pace like you can with Shenmue 2. Which I think I can finish is 12ish hours if I rush (maybe faster). That's ok if he maintains the options for other players to play in the traditional Shenmue way, so those who want to play slow, take their time etc can do. That makes sense.

Theres are arguement over whether III should have brought in new players or not. I was discussing this in another chat and its difficult. Go too far one way and it's not the Shenmue we remember, too far the other and it's considered old and dated. We also know that Yu Suzuki made III for the fans and hence the fan-service so its tough as to the balance. Had the game been more linear in set-up I wonder what the reaction would have been. Would it have been the Shenmue style we remembered? Anyway this is old ground so I'll leave that.

The Epic deal did damage but I'll also say this how many of these people are complaining about Epic now? Not anywhere near as many across gaming. Sure some still do but its not as toxic as it once was.

The Epic deal stunk of a publisher (who made some real errors) wanting ££££. That's fine but it was handled beyond poorly.

Moving forward whether we get story is one thing but we have to temper expectations too. The finances are not there so I would imagine compromises will have to be made. They have a base formula for the game/engine so of course this will help.
 
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