Potential Shenmue 3 Retcons?

Giving the way the story has unfolded so far, I actually doubt that we'll get one person with all the answers. It seems to me that the story is very much like a puzzle that we're collecting pieces of as we travel from place to place. The only person that might have all the answers is Tentei. However, that is assuming that the Chi You Men already know everything. However, while I have no proof as of yet, I suspect that there is a lot they don't know, hence why they keep popping up at the same places as Ryo does.

yeah, true I mean it is a detective game and it's all pieces from different sources so no one person likely has ALL the answers...but someone has to have a definitive answer as to what happened between Iwao and Lan Di's father though.

I don't know, I'm not as down on it as others (shrugs)...to me, it seems about on par with the info we got from the previous games...it's always just another piece of the puzzle to try and deduce answers from. I can see why it annoys some, but it doesn't annoy me that badly.

Not to mention that those 3 plot points all came from just one character at the very end of the game.

And that's different from II, how? If II hadn't have ended with the long walk and the setup for III, it would have ended on the same note. Guy who we rescued from the thugs has the answers.

If anything, III feels like II redux...just without the weight of a character like Xiuying to add gravitas...although I do kind of like Mr Sun a lot more on this second playthrough. To me, it's not the story that's the problem...it's the character development that is the bigger issue of III.

Again, I get the frustration people have with it, but I feel like in terms of parting info, this is just par the Shenmue way of doing things.
 
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For Shenmue 4, YSNet should hire 1 or 2 Shenmue fans who know very well about the lore, as consultants. Yu Suzuki does not play games, I think he forgot some parts of the first games that were created by members of the team 20 years ago. For instance, he did not remember the Nozomi fight easter egg when he was asked about it a few weeks ago...

"Save Shenmue" is still a thing.
You are correct. He remembers it more or less on a general high level, but he doesn’t remember the nitty gritty details: hence why Shenmue is a mess of anachronisms and plotholes.
 
So first things first, I just want to point out something that no-one really remembers in regards to the first 2 games. We spend the bulk of Shenmue 2 searching for Yuanda Zuh and once we find him, he tells us about the Phoenix mirror the identity of Lan Di and the reason he killed Iwao. However, what a lot of people seem to forget is, that half of what Zuh tells us, we already find out in Shenmue 1. First off, Lan Di virtually tells us himself why he kill's Iwao, minus the part that he is Zhao Sunming's son. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's about revenge. Secondly, Zuh tells us where the mirrors come from, but so does the owner of the antiques shop in Shenmue 1. The only difference is Zuh gives us the village name, not just the region; Guilin. Third; Zuh tells us what the mirrors do, yet so did Master Chen in Shenmue 1. The only difference is that they give very different accounts of what they do. What the reason for this is, we do not get know, however, I am beginning to suspect either a retcon or that Yu-san hoped we'd all forget what Chen said as it was too much info too soon. Regardless, the point I am making is that we really don't learn as much new info at the end of Shenmue 2 as a lot of people, myself included until I thought about it, as we think we do. While Zuh did tell us that Iwao and Zhao were friends, the most important thing we get from him his the next stop on our trip.
I think that a lot of people are conflating several complaints with S3. There is the lack of story development, the poor storytelling, and the bad pacing. All of these things add up to something that imo makes S3 by far the weakest in the series. Could you argue that S3 has about as much "big picture" plot information as S2? Maybe. But could you argue that it's presented as well, told as compellingly, and paced out properly? No.

To be clear, S1 and 2 were originally supposed to be 1 game, so they can both be classified as the beginning of the story. They have to do massive heavy lifting to introduce us to characters, make us care about them, characterize Ryo's hometown and contrast that to fish out of water China, in addition to setting up the mysteries of the story that will take us through to the end (which they do masterfully, hence people clamoring for 20 years for a continuation). S3 is the part of the story where things deepen, we were at Bailu village where the mirrors were made, where the poem is from, where Iwao trained with Zhao, where the Shenmue tree has stood for thousands of years, and virtually none of that stuff is expanded on. It's like if in a Superman movie, he discovers the fortress of solitude and then just beats up some random thugs there, shrugs his shoulders and leaves.

However, this is one instance that I which will cite the budget as an issue. Yu-san could not afford excess dialogue, as voice acting in two languages is expensive, so if there were such scenes planned, I can understand why they were cut.
If they were in fact cut I can think of several things in Bailu that should have been cut instead.

However, what we did get was a character assessment of Iwao from bid master, someone who knew him at the time.
Saying that someone isn't capable of MURDER is hardly a character assessment. Yuanda Zhu shares basically the same sentiment. Based on everything we get about Iwao post-S1 you'd be hard pressed to tell me a single thing about him other than the fact that he liked martial arts a lot.

Properly spaced out over Baishi like it was probably supposed to be, then all these events would have the proper weight to them that they needed. Making it feel like a lot more had happened.
I actually agree with this. If Niaowu was all about finding Yuan and learning about the Chi You Men instead of chasing low level Red Snake thugs around then it would be much better. Again, this speaks to S3's poor storytelling and planning. If YS really felt the tale of the Red Snakes needed to be told right now after a 20 year hiatus then I think he terribly mismanaged the project.

However, first things first and my apologies if someone has already clarified this, the reason we went to Niaowu is because it is recognised as being one of the markers on the map by Elder Yuh.
One of the most confusing scenes in the game. We go to Niaowu because Chai tells us to go to Niaowu. It also happens to be on the map for no reason that I can ascertain because we don't discover anything about the mirrors or any kind of breadcrumb there. Very weird. But again, sloppy storytelling.

Also, this needs to be said: comparing S3 to S2 in terms of story is never going to end well for S3. It takes roughly the same time to beat both games and how about you compare what happens in both games? Or what characters we're introduced to? Or the boss fights that we had? Or which moments stick out in your mind? Or the way you felt as the credits started to roll? Not even in the same league.
 
I think that a lot of people are conflating several complaints with S3. There is the lack of story development, the poor storytelling, and the bad pacing. All of these things add up to something that imo makes S3 by far the weakest in the series. Could you argue that S3 has about as much "big picture" plot information as S2? Maybe. But could you argue that it's presented as well, told as compellingly, and paced out properly? No.

To be clear, S1 and 2 were originally supposed to be 1 game, so they can both be classified as the beginning of the story. They have to do massive heavy lifting to introduce us to characters, make us care about them, characterize Ryo's hometown and contrast that to fish out of water China, in addition to setting up the mysteries of the story that will take us through to the end (which they do masterfully, hence people clamoring for 20 years for a continuation). S3 is the part of the story where things deepen, we were at Bailu village where the mirrors were made, where the poem is from, where Iwao trained with Zhao, where the Shenmue tree has stood for thousands of years, and virtually none of that stuff is expanded on. It's like if in a Superman movie, he discovers the fortress of solitude and then just beats up some random thugs there, shrugs his shoulders and leaves.


If they were in fact cut I can think of several things in Bailu that should have been cut instead.


Saying that someone isn't capable of MURDER is hardly a character assessment. Yuanda Zhu shares basically the same sentiment. Based on everything we get about Iwao post-S1 you'd be hard pressed to tell me a single thing about him other than the fact that he liked martial arts a lot.


I actually agree with this. If Niaowu was all about finding Yuan and learning about the Chi You Men instead of chasing low level Red Snake thugs around then it would be much better. Again, this speaks to S3's poor storytelling and planning. If YS really felt the tale of the Red Snakes needed to be told right now after a 20 year hiatus then I think he terribly mismanaged the project.


One of the most confusing scenes in the game. We go to Niaowu because Chai tells us to go to Niaowu. It also happens to be on the map for no reason that I can ascertain because we don't discover anything about the mirrors or any kind of breadcrumb there. Very weird. But again, sloppy storytelling.

Also, this needs to be said: comparing S3 to S2 in terms of story is never going to end well for S3. It takes roughly the same time to beat both games and how about you compare what happens in both games? Or what characters we're introduced to? Or the boss fights that we had? Or which moments stick out in your mind? Or the way you felt as the credits started to roll? Not even in the same league.
This.....
Totally agreed.
 
You are correct. He remembers it more or less on a general high level, but he doesn’t remember the nitty gritty details: hence why Shenmue is a mess of anachronisms and plotholes.
I can't really blame him for not remembering an easter egg he probably had no involvement in. Especially in a game as multifaceted as Shenmue 1.
 
Dude's 61 and made the game 20 years ago. I know a lot of my artist/musician friends RARELY revisit their past works once they've completed something. I won't say he shouldn't have paid closer attention to the first two games considering he was working on the sequel, but I'll forgive him for missing details like that.
 
He didn't even knew about the duck races.
He had additional project managers working with him on a vastly larger production team. He likely didnt have much, if any, involvement in some of the easter eggs. I think he was more of a boss role in Sega AM2 and had to approve and signoff on the project as it moved along.
 
One of the most confusing scenes in the game. We go to Niaowu because Chai tells us to go to Niaowu. It also happens to be on the map for no reason that I can ascertain because we don't discover anything about the mirrors or any kind of breadcrumb there. Very weird. But again, sloppy storytelling
The whole mirror treasure seems to be muddled in this game; I watched the critical scenes about it again.

Elder Yeh says the scroll references Niaowu, but nothing about the treasure or the mirrors is in Niaowu at all. The reason they go to Niaowu is because Chai mentions they took Yuan there. Also, the ending references the scroll again. They are heading to the cliff temple that the game says is mentioned on the scroll. However, Elder Yeh says the treasure was hidden in the mountains, or in the palace of the Emporer, it's not exactly clear. There is no mention of the cliff side temple, not to mention that the temple is really far north, along the Great Wall, nowhere close to Guilin.
 
We didn't teleport from Yokosuka to Hong Kong, Ryo got a boat. We didn't teleport from Hong Kong to Kowloon, Ryo got a bus. We didn't teleport from Kowloon to Guilin, Ryo got a boat. Shit, we didn't even teleport from Bailu to Niaowu, they once again travelled by boat! What makes you think Ryo's just going to teleport to the temple cliff, aside from you'd apparently like him to?
The cliff side temple is shown in the ending cutscene; it's not far off in the distance. It would make sense if Shenmue 4 started there, or they arrived very shortly after. As has been mentioned on other posts, Shenmue 4 needs to start with a bit of a bang narrative to kick start the next part of the story.
 
Elder Yeh says the scroll references Niaowu, but nothing about the treasure or the mirrors is in Niaowu at all. The reason they go to Niaowu is because Chai mentions they took Yuan there. Also, the ending references the scroll again. They are heading to the cliff temple that the game says is mentioned on the scroll. However, Elder Yeh says the treasure was hidden in the mountains, or in the palace of the Emporer, it's not exactly clear. There is no mention of the cliff side temple, not to mention that the temple is really far north, along the Great Wall, nowhere close to Guilin.
Right, there is no reason for the scroll to feature Niaowu. There IS a reason for the scroll to feature the cliff temple since we're told that the mirrors were stored there but that opens up a whole mess that I hope Suzuki is ready to explain: how did Zhao find out about the cliff temple? How did the Chi You Men? How did anyone find anything out about the mirrors? We literally came from the village where they were made and nobody was able to tell us shit and it's not like they're that old. Zhao found these mirrors what, 50 years after they were made? So Elder Yeh was alive when the mirrors were created but can't tell you anything about them, not even the constellation that's in the dragon mirror, but she can tell you that the treasure was hidden in the mountains? This story is a fucking mess and it really seems like he's either written himself into a corner, or retconned what the mirrors were originally supposed to do.
 
Right, there is no reason for the scroll to feature Niaowu. There IS a reason for the scroll to feature the cliff temple since we're told that the mirrors were stored there but that opens up a whole mess that I hope Suzuki is ready to explain: how did Zhao find out about the cliff temple? How did the Chi You Men? How did anyone find anything out about the mirrors? We literally came from the village where they were made and nobody was able to tell us shit and it's not like they're that old. Zhao found these mirrors what, 50 years after they were made? So Elder Yeh was alive when the mirrors were created but can't tell you anything about them, not even the constellation that's in the dragon mirror, but she can tell you that the treasure was hidden in the mountains? This story is a fucking mess and it really seems like he's either written himself into a corner, or retconned what the mirrors were originally supposed to do.
This is likely due to just “making up the story’s plot points as you go along”. He has always had the high level arc from start to finish in mind, however, it seems he just makes up points along the way to tie it all together but its riddled with flawed logic
 
This is likely due to just “making up the story’s plot points as you go along”. He has always had the high level arc from start to finish in mind, however, it seems he just makes up points along the way to tie it all together but its riddled with flawed logic
I can accept that he doesn't have every little detail mapped out, and there have been a bunch of holes and conveniences in the first 2 games (why doesn't Ine San give Ryo the letter until he has literally run out of leads? Why doesn't Zhang know where Yuanda Zhu is when you meet him for the first time? How does Yuanda Zhu know where Lan Di is going?) but nothing that would indicate he's making stuff up as he's going. The mirrors being only 70 years old, Niaowu being on the scroll for no reason, and Ryo forgetting about Longsun Zhao are huge red flags that don't instill confidence that Yu Suzuki has his story straight.
 
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