Random Shenmue III Thoughts

[orient]

I don't think Ryo knowing Chai's name matters at all. What matters is that he remembers the character itself. I didn't get the impression Ryo forgot who Chai was, but maybe that's because I played in Japanese and was paying less attention to what Ryo said when he showed up. In his surprise, I wouldn't expect him to call out Chai's name, but a bit of dialogue between Ryo and Shenhua would've cleared everything up, or provided a better explanation for new players.

It definitely feels like something that could've been lost in translation, considering the sloppy nature of the English. The chance of the loc team knowing Chai's a returning character seems pretty slim. Just look at how they butchered the Warehouse No.8 password.

 

[danielmann861]

Well @danielmann861 already found huge translation at the ending of Shenmue 3-
Yuan: The cliff temple that Zhao visited
Ryo’s: That’s where we found the scroll

Obviously it was discovered in tower in Bailu village which confused a lot of people.

I should go through this one day and check.

Actually, I can't remember. Where was the line in question about Chai? Was it during the interrogation or was it after the QTE? I'd be curious to check it out in Japanese now.

I have two theories on it.

1.) Bad translation (which is entirely possible given the end line goof)

2.) The game is trying to straddle the line between being a semi-reboot and a continuation. Meaning the whole game is trying to straddle the line between refreshing the audience and, perhaps, catching up a new audience, while also trying to push it forward a little bit.


But what do I know.

 

[orient]

I should go through this one day and check.

Actually, I can't remember. Where was the line in question about Chai? Was it during the interrogation or was it after the QTE? I'd be curious to check it out in Japanese now.

I have two theories on it.

1.) Bad translation (which is entirely possible given the end line goof)

2.) The game is trying to straddle the line between being a semi-reboot and a continuation. Meaning the whole game is trying to straddle the line between refreshing the audience and, perhaps, catching up a new audience, while also trying to push it forward a little bit.


But what do I know.

I considered that as well, that they may not want to focus on "backstory" stuff because of new players. It's kinda like the floating sword retcon -- I don't think it actually changes anything, it's just more palatable for a new audience and a new game, not to have to explain these things that have no bearing on the events in S3.

The line I'm curious about in JP is when Ryo first encounters Chai.

 

[Dietsoap]

I considered that as well, that they may not want to focus on "backstory" stuff because of new players. It's kinda like the floating sword retcon -- I don't think it actually changes anything, it's just more palatable for a new audience and a new game, not to have to explain these things that have no bearing on the events in S3.

The line I'm curious about in JP is when Ryo first encounters Chai.

The sword/dagger retcon is a little different considering Yu literally asked for a dagger originally and the modeler just ignored him and made a sword instead lmao. There's a pretty funny interview bit about that somewhere on here: the modeler recalls Yu being kind of pissed that he didn't make a dagger, but eventually just says "whatever, put it in".

Though yeah, it's not shown levitating. A few of us a while back were speculating that Yu only blew his load on the mysticism aspect so early in the story for the final scene of S2 because the future of the series was uncertain. Basically a hail mary attempt to get people talking and curious. I don't think he would revealed so much of the mysticism so blatantly if he knew S3 was right around the corner, but that's just my personal hunch of course.

 

[Rydeen]

I wondered if it was an issue in translation rather than saying "who is he" to "why is he here". We don't know that Ryo knows Chai's name for example

Yeah, all of this discussion is kind of confusing for me, because in Japanese Ryo asks Yanglang, 'Who ordered you to do this? Was it that creepy hunchback?' (Yanglang actually refers to him as the skinhead this time.)

Chai only ever refers to himself as "Ore sama" which, if my Japanese isn't too rusty, is just a weird way of saying "I".

Yeah, it's actually a really arrogant and self-important way of referring to oneself in Japanese, which I assume is why they had him refer to himself in the third person, in English, for the first game (since that's kind of pretentious). I can't remember if he speaks in really broken English in the first game, though, the way he speaks Japanese. If so, referring to himself in the third person would kind of come across as more part of the broken English, than pretentious.

Actually, I hadn't noticed before, but Yanglang also uses 'Ore sama,' until he gets shellacked by Shenhua, at which point he reverts to simply 'Ore.'

The line I'm curious about in JP is when Ryo first encounters Chai.

When Chai snatches the scroll? I'm pretty sure that's the only time Ryo actually addresses him at all in the game. In Japanese Ryo just says 'You again... Hand over that scroll!'

Oh, shit. After watching that again, Chai does the same thing Yanglang does. Once Shenhua starts goading him, he starts referring to himself with 'Ore' instead of 'Ore sama.' Neat.

 

[orient]

In Japanese Ryo just says 'You again... Hand over that scroll!'

Neat. Well that puts that little incongruity to rest

The sword/dagger retcon is a little different considering Yu literally asked for a dagger originally and the modeler just ignored him and made a sword instead lmao. There's a pretty funny interview bit about that somewhere on here: the modeler recalls Yu being kind of pissed that he didn't make a dagger, but eventually just says "whatever, put it in".

Yeah that's hilarious. I was talking about the levitation, but I tend to agree with your hypothesis -- that or having real "magic" at the very beginning of the game, when there is no literal magic in the rest of the game, just felt wrong and would've started the game off on the wrong foot.

 

[Rydeen]

Neat. Well that puts that little incongruity to rest

I guess just to throw a little bit of a wrench into it, Yanglang does refer to Chai by name once, at the end of the interrogation scene. So technically, by that point, Ryo does know his name (assuming he was paying attention at all). The next time I play through the series I was planning to try to pay attention to how and when Ryo uses enemies' names. Going off of memory from my playthroughs last year, I feel like Ryo rarely, if ever, uses their names; Aside from of course, the big one, Lan Di. I feel like it could be intentional to emphasize how stubbornly focused on Lan Di, Ryo is, and how other enemies are really just stepping stones to his ultimate goal.


A semi-related random thought: I think I've probably said here before that I think many people potentially aren't used to the unorthodox style of story telling in Shenmue III (or the series as a whole, really), and to sort of expound on that, I think something people might react poorly to, possibly subconsciously, is the fact there's almost never a moment of exposition (particularly with dialogue) outside of Ryo's purview. It's really rare to have a story these days that doesn't have scenes with expository dialogue, where the main character(s) aren't present, to let the audience in on certain details. I could make a Yakuza comparison here, but instead I'll reference something like the scenes with Heidegger in the FFVII remake. FFVIIR, in an effort to be better understood, gives the audience glimpses of what the antagonists are up to when they're without the presence of the main character. Even if it's not the antagonists, a lot of popular media will have conversations between supporting characters that the main character isn't privy to, that sort of force feeds the audience details about what's going on.

Shenmue eschews this sort of dialogue, in my opinion, to pull the player more into the perspective of Ryo. We don't get to know what Yuanda Zhu does or says when he's out of Ryo's sights because Ryo doesn't know. Something I think is kind of interesting, though, is that from what I've seen of the original chapter novelizations, the story wasn't penned out this way. Specifically there was a section that I saw from chapter 2 with a scene where Dou Niu is reprimanding Yuan, in his office, when Yuan reports that he failed to kidnap Zhu. So it seems like a conscious decision that Suzuki made at some point, and I kind of wonder if it will continue for any new games in the series. Obviously there was the perspective system planned for Shenmue III, which would have probably, kind of, gone against this trend in the series, though.

 

[SalsaShark]

I remember when there was debate over whether Yuanda Zhu meant to say Qing or Qin dynasty (though this was obviously only an English issue) but S3 pretty definitively puts that to rest. The Shenmue tree being a species of tree rather than a specific name is another possible example maybe? I think that when Shenhua says things like "the poem has been told in the village from long ago" and referring to the mirrors as "ancient" might have be lost in translation as well.

So it looks like your hunch about the Shenmue tree was a good one @iknifaugood.

Here's the Japanese version of the notebook entry for going to Ternary Spring for the first time and meeting Feng. Maybe @danielmann861 or @Rydeen can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the relevant line (boxed in green) just says "Ookii na ki ga atta" - "There was a large tree". I definitely don't see the Shenmue katakana there.

English notebook for comparison:


I also dug around in an old save looking for moments where Ryo could ask about the tree or the spring or Feng and found this little scene:

For context this is after Ryo gets beat up at the Hermits Nest and gets directed to talk to Grandmaster Feng, but before actually going to speak to Feng.

The poem and mirrors are an interesting thought too. My initial thinking on that was that since Shenhua talks about her dreams of living multiple lives over a long period of time, maybe there have been multiple versions of the mirrors too over multiple emperors or even dynasties?

 

[danielmann861]

So it looks like your hunch about the Shenmue tree was a good one @iknifaugood.
View attachment 7886
Here's the Japanese version of the notebook entry for going to Ternary Spring for the first time and meeting Feng. Maybe @danielmann861 or @Rydeen can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the relevant line (boxed in green) just says "Ookii na ki ga atta" - "There was a large tree". I definitely don't see the Shenmue katakana there.

Looks like Ookii na to me...Jesus fucking Christ this translation sucked! The more I see, the more I realise just how shit this games translation really is.

I mean that shit is simple to translate! Incredibly simple. It's literally just "There was a big tree"...you want to translate it as something fancier then call it a cherry blossom tree (it is a cherry blossom tree, ain't it?)...hell, would probably make more sense considering the Cherry Blossom tree back at the Hazuki Dojo (which was kind of interesting to me that Ryo's father was pounding what looks to be a cherry blossom tree yet had a similar tree in his own Dojo.)

Yeah, this game really has a shit translation job by the looks of it.

 

[Real1]

I see everyone preferring Bailu over Niaowu.... Am I the only one who didn't like Bailu very much but loved Niaowu?

 

[Yokosuka]

Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
Between this and the treasure location, think about how many people have been left in confusion.

Considering the zero relation with Shenmue three, could be a spoiler/not-to-be-confused-with annotation was used by mistake by the translator? This is quite an enigmatic translation.

I see everyone preferring Bailu over Niaowu.... Am I the only one who didn't like Bailu very much but loved Niaowu?

I slightly prefered Niaowu over Bailu for my very own reasons.
Niaowu's architecture fed my imagination a bit easier and I took pleasure by varying so many different activities.

When I was at Bailu, I didn't have the mood to get into lucky hits for instance. Tbh, it's really Shenmue 3 that makes me interested in the mini-game. I didn't know that looking for the right lucky hit panel (i.e. the best luck/money ratio) was so addictive.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

What the heck...The tree looked awfully like a Shenmue tree to not be one.

 

[SalsaShark]

Oh my gosh, this is terrible.
Between this and the treasure location, think about how many people have been left in confusion.

Considering the zero relation with Shenmue three, could be a spoiler/not-to-be-confused-with annotation was used by mistake by the translator? This is quite an enigmatic translation.

Yeah on the one hand it's super annoying. It really feels like the translation only had like one draft (certainly needed more review).

On the other hand I'm actually kind of relieved as it means we're now back to there being only one unique and special Shenmue Tree which I think bodes better for the story as a whole.

 

[Rydeen]

I feel like this was discussed at some point before, but I can't remember where. It is true that literally it just says there was a large tree there, but I wouldn't say that it's an indication of Shenmue being a single tree. I feel like from a Japanese perspective, it doesn't really make sense for it to be just a single tree. The characters used for it are [莎木], read in Chinese as 'Shenmue,' but for a Japanese reader (if they actually know the first one can be read as 'hamasuge') is like a hamasuge tree, in the same way [桜木] is a sakura tree. The two trees in Bailu have the same petal and bark designs (the petals are obviously very reminiscent of cherry blossoms and plum blossoms), and I think that it being one of Shenhua's favorite places is meant to imply that it's the same type of tree. I also think that its shape being similar to the sakura tree by the Hadzuki Dojo is intentional as well, but as far as I'm aware, sakura trees aren't indigenous to southern China.

Honestly, I think they did that in English just to make it explicit for western audiences. Just as an example of a Japanese player's reaction to seeing that tree:
(3:21:02)
「あっ、シェンムー木」, or 'Oh, a Shenmue tree.'

I don't necessarily mean to have the final word on this, though. I think it is potentially possible that the other tree isn't a Shenmue tree, but I don't see it as particularly likely. However, Shenmue II already pretty well establishes that the one outside of Shenhua's house is not the only Shenmue tree.

 

[SalsaShark]

I feel like this was discussed at some point before, but I can't remember where. It is true that literally it just says there was a large tree there, but I wouldn't say that it's an indication of Shenmue being a single tree. I feel like from a Japanese perspective, it doesn't really make sense for it to be just a single tree. The characters used for it are [莎木], read in Chinese as 'Shenmue,' but for a Japanese reader (if they actually know the first one can be read as 'hamasuge') is like a hamasuge tree, in the same way [桜木] is a sakura tree. The two trees in Bailu have the same petal and bark designs (the petals are obviously very reminiscent of cherry blossoms and plum blossoms), and I think that it being one of Shenhua's favorite places is meant to imply that it's the same type of tree. I also think that its shape being similar to the sakura tree by the Hadzuki Dojo is intentional as well, but as far as I'm aware, sakura trees aren't indigenous to southern China.

Honestly, I think they did that in English just to make it explicit for western audiences. Just as an example of a Japanese player's reaction to seeing that tree:
(3:21:02)
「あっ、シェンムー木」, or 'Oh, a Shenmue tree.'

I don't necessarily mean to have the final word on this, though. I think it is potentially possible that the other tree isn't a Shenmue tree, but I don't see it as particularly likely. However, Shenmue II already pretty well establishes that the one outside of Shenhua's house is not the only Shenmue tree.

That's really interesting and would make some sense given how Shenhua talks about the tree protecting her. I guess I find it odd that Shenhua wouldn't refer to it as a Shenmue tree though.

Out of curiosity what was the part from 2 that talks about the tree at Shenhua's not being the only one? The flashback scene of baby Shenhua?

 

[Lan Di-sama]

That's really interesting and would make some sense given how Shenhua talks about the tree protecting her. I guess I find it odd that Shenhua wouldn't refer to it as a Shenmue tree though.

Out of curiosity what was the part from 2 that talks about the tree at Shenhua's not being the only one? The flashback scene of baby Shenhua?

It's not explicit but the flashback is definitely a different location than Shenhua's house that we see. It also seems like a different time period, which opens up the possibility it is Shenhua's house from hundreds of years before but seems unlikely imo.

 

[spud1897]

Just started my first PC play-through this afternoon. It's night and day between PC and PS4 Pro. PC is a silky smooth 60 FPS in Bailu, no issues, nothing. Perfect.

While the invisbile walls are a little annoying the village square fits nicely from the descriptions Shenhua gives in Shenmue II. She also refers to Elder Yeh as the old lady in the village and a person who will make medicine if you pick herbs. Nice little details that carry on.

I know people find the arcade, prizes, joy park a little odd but, for me, they don't matter. Bailu is a wonderful place to be.

 

[chaikilla]

I see everyone preferring Bailu over Niaowu.... Am I the only one who didn't like Bailu very much but loved Niaowu?

When I first played the game, I tried to gauge the opinions other fans on here had on the game without spoiling anything and from what I read then, a lot of people seemed to prefer Niawou. I can remember one poster's comment particularly well, it was something along the lines of 'don't worry about the slow pace of Bailu, the game really picks up once you get to Niawou.'

There were definitely a section of people who preferred Niawou because they saw it as having more action than Bailu.

 

[Nigel]

I see everyone preferring Bailu over Niaowu.... Am I the only one who didn't like Bailu very much but loved Niaowu?

I liked Bailu for what it was, and I think it really helped recapture the feel of the earlier games. That said, when aiming for the fishing achievement, gambling, and leveling up moves, I always preferred to do so in Niaowu. So too, with collecting items, there's simply more to do.
I think some thought Niaowu is less complete and feels dead for a city, but I still prefer what's there to Bailu when playing.

 

[hmjohnny]

A semi-related random thought: I think I've probably said here before that I think many people potentially aren't used to the unorthodox style of story telling in Shenmue III (or the series as a whole, really), and to sort of expound on that, I think something people might react poorly to, possibly subconsciously, is the fact there's almost never a moment of exposition (particularly with dialogue) outside of Ryo's purview. It's really rare to have a story these days that doesn't have scenes with expository dialogue, where the main character(s) aren't present, to let the audience in on certain details

This is definitely intentional. I think this type of storytelling works really well for Shenmue since it immerses us better in Ryo's journey and keeps the aura of mystery. I get why most stories don't do this though, but it's a good call for Shenmue.

Although technically I should point out that Shenmue does break this formula a few times namely, in the Shenhua prologue, scenes and Xuiying's and Shenhua's flashbacks. But there are necessary times where expositing additional information to the player makes sense if done sparingly.

Specifically there was a section that I saw from chapter 2 with a scene where Dou Niu is reprimanding Yuan, in his office, when Yuan reports that he failed to kidnap Zhu.

Where did you find this? I've had a hard time finding anything about the original scripts. I'm assuming it was something like a screenshot you caught a glimpse of a few sentences. If so, are there anymore like it? I'm really interested in this sort of thing.

I also dug around in an old save looking for moments where Ryo could ask about the tree or the spring or Feng and found this little scene:

I knew it!

I remember arguing about this when the game came out but couldn't find the clip where he said it was a Sakura tree. I was always perplexed since I didn't initially notice the notebook entry saying it was a Shenmue tree until after I finished the game. This makes a lot more sense because I feel like the game would have drawn attention to it being a second Shenmue tree if that were the case. Also, it mirrors the Sakura tree in Ryo's yard, with Iwao training under it.

Honestly, I think they did that in English just to make it explicit for western audiences. Just as an example of a Japanese player's reaction to seeing that tree:

I'm thinking this might be the case. Where they didn't make it explicit originally but gave the direction to do so in the English translation. However, there are arguments against it as well.

For one, it is made really clear that Shenhua say's "Sakura" when referring to the tree in the Ternary Spring instead of Shenmue. She does reference the Shenmue tree by name in other convo's so it's hard to believe this isn't intentional.

Secondly, while the tree looks similar to the Shenmue tree it is never called out as such (except the aforementioned notebook entry). It could be a case of reusing assets rather than intentionally making it a Shenmue tree. Likewise the Japanese never calls it out explicitly and I wonder why the subtlety in one language and not the other; especially for something so important where the game lacks subtlety in areas like this. Considering the translations were done at the same time (it wasn't a later amendment) it's possible that it's just an error or assumption on the translator's part. This isn't far fetched given how poor the translation is in other areas.

Third, it poetically mirrors the tree in the yard. As for Sakura trees not growing in China, we also see a Shinto shrine in Niaowu so it doesn't seem S3 is slavish to authenticity.

Lastly, it really takes away from the gravitas that S2 places on the Shenmue tree being special and ancient if there are many more of them. It's possible there is another tree based on Shenhua's flashback/dream but it is also possible that is the same tree in an earlier time period (Bailu goes back to Tang dynasty after all). Either way, I can't see the games not drawing attention to it if they ever were to encounter a second tree.

IMO, I'm assuming it is not a Shenmue tree until S4 corrects me otherwise.

It's not explicit but the flashback is definitely a different location than Shenhua's house that we see. It also seems like a different time period, which opens up the possibility it is Shenhua's house from hundreds of years before but seems unlikely imo

I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Maybe its Luoyang however since Shenhua does mention the city of the emporer. Bailu was built in Tang and originally fortified so it may be the case that it was the original village nearly a thousand years back. It also makes sense since the Shenmue tree is smaller in the flashback. However, I'm partial to believing there is only one tree since I like the idea that it's unique and special. I'm ok either way though.