Ryo is the best worst Martial Artist of all time

Joined
Sep 17, 2018
So I finished Shenmue 3 the other night and I loved it for the most part, starting it up felt like I stepped right back into 2000 the first time I played it on Dreamcast.

But

There's one problem that's bothered me since the beginning that has been prevalent throughout the series and that is that Ryo is only as useful as a Martial Artist as it is convenient to the plot. Shenmue I probably handled it the best, obviously Lan Di is a force he's unprepared for at the time, and along that journey Ryo is shown to be competent but still immature and thats probably Guizhangs biggest gripe as the two are at similar levels, also you can lose or win against Chai and Enoki.

Shenmue II there was more emphasis on Ryo maturing and learning but this is where it really started to get to into "These masters are untouchable and Ryo is nothing compared to them" rhetoric we know he's competent but the "fight me" to an opponent who dodges or blocks every move is repetitive and boring. Even so though theres still showing growth, and the fight against Dou Niu at least makes sense that he needs to get stronger to fight a truly monstrously sized man.

Shenmue 3, Ryo has grown in the months since, he's been fighting frequently, he dispatches thugs with ease but for some reason they still get the better of him even if he wins the fights against the labeled bosses, even though he shouldnt have lost to by this point, but Chai is now easily dispatched (also side note loved Chais bedroom and family portrait). More untouchable masters, and culminating in again an untouchable Lan Di who remarks at Ryos growth but for a guy who has most likely only been sitting around for the last 4 straight months is WORLDS ahead, I would have preferred a more mixed battle that Ryo still could have lost and been saved from by the burning castle.

I understand where Yu Suzuki is coming from with attempting to show Ryo's growth but at this point repeating the same plot devices is such poor writing, that he might as well never fight Lan Di or buy a gun, because there's always someone better than him, and he cant even land a punch on some senior citizens.
 
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I really do feel like each Shenmue game should've stayed focused on developing different areas of Ryo's life.
Shenmue 1 - Dealing with balancing revenge and personal life involving friends & family
Shenmue 2 - Maturing as a martial artist by experiencing life lessons and training
Shenmue 3 - The struggle of empathizing with Lan Di after the reveal of what truly happened to Sunming Zhao & the Chi You manipulating him since childhood
Shenmue 4 - After dealing with Niao Sun, the true test begins; Revenge or Forgiveness..
 
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I really do feel like each Shenmue game should've stayed focused on developing different areas of Ryo's life.
Shenmue 1 - Dealing with balancing revenge and personal life involving friends & family
Shenmue 2 - Maturing as a martial artist by experiencing life lessons and training
Shenmue 3 - The struggle of empathizing with Lan Di after the reveal of what truly happened to Sunming Zhao & the Chi You manipulating him since childhood
Shenmue 4 - After dealing with Niao Sun, the truth test begins; Revenge or Forgiveness..

I was talking strictly from the combat perspective but I actually really like your growth path for him in the context of the story also along the lines of what Yu had said prior that revenge would slowly lose its meaning to Ryo on his journey but right at the end of e its "Fight me I will have my revenge!"
 
I was talking strictly from the combat perspective but I actually really like your growth path for him in the context of the story also along the lines of what Yu had said prior that revenge would slowly lose its meaning to Ryo on his journey but right at the end of e its "Fight me I will have my revenge!"
Right, even following my layout for each game would affect gameplay greatly.
No more rent-a-martial-artists training Ryo like he's a scrub in Shenmue 3 (Ryo can train himself) and Ryo's main opponents would be the Chi You's best men instead of the Red Snakes.
 
Right, even following my layout for each game would affect gameplay greatly.
No more rent-a-martial-artists training Ryo like he's a scrub in Shenmue 3 (Ryo can train himself) and Ryo's main opponents would be the Chi You's best men instead of the Red Snakes.

That is something that I thought was lacking as well, Lan Di is utterly unimpressed when Ryo should start appearing as a credible threat by now (also that new voice is...well its not the Lan Di I would be afraid of). They really have such a missed opportunity for Ryo to learn from masters via passive skills, like focus and economy of motion instead its very active, YOU NEED REVERSE BODYCHECK TO BEAT GORILLAMAN
 
God yea concidering yu did all this research in fighting style's and what not I would of thought he would of come up with something more complex than learn a super move that can't be counterd lol that isn't how real fights play out it's often a combination of moves and wit and speed not oh super move time and now you are done
 
God yea concidering yu did all this research in fighting style's and what not I would of thought he would of come up with something more complex than learn a super move that can't be counterd lol that isn't how real fights play out it's often a combination of moves and wit and speed not oh super move time and now you are done

Dunno man, I’ve seen plenty of fights won by an almighty move.

I used to know this guy, Danny Zuko...
 
God yea concidering yu did all this research in fighting style's and what not I would of thought he would of come up with something more complex than learn a super move that can't be counterd lol that isn't how real fights play out it's often a combination of moves and wit and speed not oh super move time and now you are done
Yeahhhhh and to top it off the reverse body check isn't even a cool move, like really? To beat Gorilla Steve, all Ryo needed to do was bump his back into him? At least if it was Iwaos move scroll there'd be a more poetic fit.

These games are responsible for my interest in Martial Arts to begin with, I wish they didn't delve into the typical mystic kung fu stuff though I know its been their intention since the beginning with the stuff from the Saturn demos and the end of 2 with the floating sword and the Phoenix Mirror Map.
 
Have to say I disagree with the opening post regarding the first two games. Shenmue III doesn't do a good job because it comes across as Ryo is being beaten by low level randoms.

With the Lan Di fight, it's similar to Mayweather vs Canelo: Ryo is a good fighter but simply is no match for the better man. He's also forgot his Wu Du and just rushes in. Wouldn't have been silly if Ryo could even put up a fight against Lan Di right now.
 
Have to say I disagree with the opening post regarding the first two games. Shenmue III doesn't do a good job because it comes across as Ryo is being beaten by low level randoms.

With the Lan Di fight, it's similar to Mayweather vs Canelo: Ryo is a good fighter but simply is no match for the better man. He's also forgot his Wu Du and just rushes in. Wouldn't have been silly if Ryo could even put up a fight against Lan Di right now.
Just curious could you clarify which parts of my assessment on the first 2 you disagree with? I felt that it was expressed pretty well he was a decently competent fighter within 1 alone when he held his pwn against the Mad Angels and Sailprs.

With regards to Lan Di I understand that he's a higher level but the Mayweather comparison isn't entirely a like for like because Mayweather excels wthin the confines of boxing rules, which yes he moves like lightning with his evasive manuvers and ability but can he handle kicks? Knees? Elbows? Any of the other stuff that comes along with MMA? Probably not.

From a writers standpoint I think Ryo should have grown by now, he's had time between, training with varied masters, testing his abilities with a variety of opponents yet when it comes to Lan Di he's no better off now than in the intro of S1, I call that Shenanigans that he cant even touch him close to halfway through the planned story, especially when pacing wise there will probably only be one more conflict with Lan Di.
 
Yeah, the development followed by "back to level 1" with Ryo as a martial artist the following game is just irritating by the third. Ryo defeated Chai, the 7 foot beast Pedro and even held his own against Gui Zhang in S1, laid out Rod, Greg, Chunyan, Yuan, Baihu and Don Niu in S1 but then gets treated like an amateur by the two red snake bosses and his merry men.

Alongside Ryo getting worked by the two bosses in S3, their fighting styles arent unique enough for Ryo to be totally ineffective against them and I'll explain:

Yanlang, the first boss in Bailu:
This guy throws haymakers, uppercuts, jabs, basic roundhouse kicks, spinning back fists and headbutts. Basically a sluggish street fighter who learned some MMA basics. Dude is essentially Kimbo Slice. And given that Ryo is no stranger to fighting people double his size at this point, there is little reason for Ryo to lose to him. However, when he knocks Ryo with the worlds slowest right hook, he cant figure out how to beat him and needs someone to teach him the right move. When he does finally learn the 2000 dollar move, he can finally beat him. The problem with the move is that its simply a side step and thrusting your body into your opponent.....1. Ryo already knows how to side step and has plenty of strong attacks. 2. The bum at the harbor taught Ryo the cross charge and shadow step. He could've easily used one of those moves and left dude on the floor.

The Red snake leader "Mr. Muscles":
This guy doesn't throw and wild moves and his attacks are pretty straight forward and even slow compared to fighters like Chunyan, Chai(probably the most unpredictable fighter) and Baihu. With the exception of a few moves that are more "Martial artsy" such as an elbow strike(which Ryo already knows a few variations of), most of dudes moves are basic jabs, knees and hooks. Then when the cutscene takes over so you automatically lose, Mr. Muscles lunges straight at you with some one inch punch type of deal that just included lunging straight forward, which Ryo also can do similar moves. But again, Ryo comes across an opponent who was unbeatable without a certain move that turns out to be the same move he used to beat Yanling. Again, Ryo could've just used Cross Charge or Shadow Step, hell, even counter elbow assault. But because Mr. Muscles threw in a few Panda and llama stances to make him seem more "ancient martial artsy", suddenly it becomes something Ryo has never seen before and cant defend against.


Given how much research Yu suzuki has done on martial arts for his games, I would think he would incorporate more obscure moves so it actually looks like Ryo is facing a style hes never seen as opposed to moves he saw fighting during recess


Im not even gonna get started on the scrawny meth addict looking and clumsy musclebound oafs giving Ryo that work
 
Yeah, the development followed by "back to level 1" with Ryo as a martial artist the following game is just irritating by the third. Ryo defeated Chai, the 7 foot beast Pedro and even held his own against Gui Zhang in S1, laid out Rod, Greg, Chunyan, Yuan, Baihu and Don Niu in S1 but then gets treated like an amateur by the two red snake bosses and his merry men.

Alongside Ryo getting worked by the two bosses in S3, their fighting styles arent unique enough for Ryo to be totally ineffective against them and I'll explain:

Yanlang, the first boss in Bailu:
This guy throws haymakers, uppercuts, jabs, basic roundhouse kicks, spinning back fists and headbutts. Basically a sluggish street fighter who learned some MMA basics. Dude is essentially Kimbo Slice. And given that Ryo is no stranger to fighting people double his size at this point, there is little reason for Ryo to lose to him. However, when he knocks Ryo with the worlds slowest right hook, he cant figure out how to beat him and needs someone to teach him the right move. When he does finally learn the 2000 dollar move, he can finally beat him. The problem with the move is that its simply a side step and thrusting your body into your opponent.....1. Ryo already knows how to side step and has plenty of strong attacks. 2. The bum at the harbor taught Ryo the cross charge and shadow step. He could've easily used one of those moves and left dude on the floor.

The Red snake leader "Mr. Muscles":
This guy doesn't throw and wild moves and his attacks are pretty straight forward and even slow compared to fighters like Chunyan, Chai(probably the most unpredictable fighter) and Baihu. With the exception of a few moves that are more "Martial artsy" such as an elbow strike(which Ryo already knows a few variations of), most of dudes moves are basic jabs, knees and hooks. Then when the cutscene takes over so you automatically lose, Mr. Muscles lunges straight at you with some one inch punch type of deal that just included lunging straight forward, which Ryo also can do similar moves. But again, Ryo comes across an opponent who was unbeatable without a certain move that turns out to be the same move he used to beat Yanling. Again, Ryo could've just used Cross Charge or Shadow Step, hell, even counter elbow assault. But because Mr. Muscles threw in a few Panda and llama stances to make him seem more "ancient martial artsy", suddenly it becomes something Ryo has never seen before and cant defend against.


Given how much research Yu suzuki has done on martial arts for his games, I would think he would incorporate more obscure moves so it actually looks like Ryo is facing a style hes never seen as opposed to moves he saw fighting during recess


Im not even gonna get started on the scrawny meth addict looking and clumsy musclebound oafs giving Ryo that work
This is exactly what I was talking about, the game also has it both ways though because then when Ryo ISN'T getting his ass kicked he's beating up the thugs without any problems whatsoever and the whimpiest hits during the QTEs right in the beginning some of his backhands look like he's wiping the dudes nose and at the end before the Lan Di fight they just dispatch the the two randos and the Bruce Lee style knock off guy hanging out with Lan Di was a pathetic tail end when they could have at least been boss style battles like with Pedro and Dou Niu
 
I agree in general, but it's only a minor gripe for me personally. I'm willing to give them some leeway due to the nature of video games -- it wouldn't be fun if Ryo could instantly destroy every thug he came across, nor would it make sense for him to come up against increasingly tougher opponents all the time.

I kinda justify it with the fact that every opponent is different. The underdog can always steal a lucky knock-out (look at MMA), so you've got to show respect to every opponent. Just because Ryo beat Duo Niu doesn't mean everybody weaker than Duo Niu can't touch him. And just because Ryo beat an opponent once doesn't necessarily mean he's always and forever better than that opponent: if Ryo can improve so can others. I dunno, I just don't think Ryo's progress should be viewed as a strictly linear progression. In the real world that is very rarely the case.

I think you bring up a really interesting point regarding the timeline of the series. Realistically, Ryo's progression as a fighter would be quite slow, even studying under several masters (many of which provide more philosophical teachings over fighting technique).
 
That's an issue I worried years before Shenmue 3. If you're able to beat an army of thugs at the Yokosuka port almost by yourself, how the upcoming fights are supposed to be told with random villains? In terms of game design, the episode-format of Shenmue is quite an headache.

Anyway, the story with Mr Muscles was better handled than Yanlang because it's explicit that Ryo couldn't beat Mr Muscles not because he's weaker but rather a style difference (although it was badly conveyed as Dehone explained).

Again, brighter dialogues could help. Ryo is a Japanese guy facing a lot of obscure Chinese martial arts, it's natural he might struggle again some of them. But most of the time, the style challenge was neither explicit nor implicit.

The lore on martial arts is barely existent, and that's one of the reasons why Shenmue 3 felt so superficial.
 
Just curious could you clarify which parts of my assessment on the first 2 you disagree with? I felt that it was expressed pretty well he was a decently competent fighter within 1 alone when he held his pwn against the Mad Angels and Sailprs.

With regards to Lan Di I understand that he's a higher level but the Mayweather comparison isn't entirely a like for like because Mayweather excels wthin the confines of boxing rules, which yes he moves like lightning with his evasive manuvers and ability but can he handle kicks? Knees? Elbows? Any of the other stuff that comes along with MMA? Probably not.

From a writers standpoint I think Ryo should have grown by now, he's had time between, training with varied masters, testing his abilities with a variety of opponents yet when it comes to Lan Di he's no better off now than in the intro of S1, I call that Shenanigans that he cant even touch him close to halfway through the planned story, especially when pacing wise there will probably only be one more conflict with Lan Di.
Read the post again and I do agree. Most likely my sleep deprived brain not computing things properly.

I think they need another way of demonstrating one person is much better than the other. Going back to your MMA point, the better man is still going to get hit every now and again and maybe that should have been the case for Lan Di. With that said, Ryo just looked pissed off and rushed in and it's probably more to signafy his lack of discipline and not necessarily skill.
 
That's an issue I worried years before Shenmue 3. If you're able to beat an army of thugs at the Yokosuka port almost by yourself, how the upcoming fights are supposed to be told with random villains?

I relatively recently had this thought about games having canon story and non-canon gameplay. For example, the 70 man battle was epic but if this was a story being realistically recounted by an old Ryo, it was 5 or so thugs he beat up and he never simply got up from multiple kicks and slams to the head. Also when telling his story about Shenmue III, he done some fishing on the side etc., but he ate more than raw black garlic, changed his clothes more frequently and actually had to drink something.
 
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Ryo is not more powerful than Duo Niu though.

He only managed to beat him because of 1 move that he used in the right moment. Other than that in the cutscene before it it was evident that he was more powerful than Ryo.
 
There is a big flaw in this discussion: pretending that all thugs are all low level fighters.

There is a pattern in Shenmue series that is just like Akira story in Virtua Fighter:

Shenmue 1: begin in Japan, there Ryo is a force to be reckoned with
Shenmue 2: out of your home, things start to get serious
Shenmue 3: the world is big, there are many martial artist better than Ryo, even thugs cannot be understimated. Ryo real training and growth start here.

Don't confuse Ryo Hazuki with Kazuma Kiryu from Yakuza series, probably even in Shenmue 5, Ryo will remain a normal human.
 
I wasn't sure about this topic until a few others posted but it's certainly interesting.

Ryo, as we know, is a young martial arts practitioner with obvious natural ability but a lack of experience. In his hometown he is quite easily the most skilled fighter there, barring Chai initially.

When he moves into Hong Kong the martial arts world opens up massively and it's here you see his inexperience really tells. Ryo, for all his ability lacks the ability to judge a fighters abilities and style due to inexperience. He might be on an ability level with them but clearly lacks refinement, leaves openings in his moves and strikes with revenge at the forefront of his mind. It clouds his judgement, his Wude. Thus he can be bested.

Now he is able to focus and beat tough fighters, he does so in Kowloon but that's when he has a very short sighted goal. He's able to focus down on the task at hand and beat these fighters. It also helps if you look at their styles barring Master Baihu and Chunyun it's a grappling form of martial arts they favour. Ryo is highly trained in this area and can beat them relativity well. Chunyun and Baihu use more striking moves so Ryo has to adapt his style to beat them.

Dou Niu is an interesting one, as he's a very strong brawler. When Ryo initially fights him he goes in trying to match like for like in the power stakes and while he holds his own his downfall is leaving himself open, he gets smashed in the face and had to be saved. When he took him down using Counter Elbow Assault he drew on his experiences in Hong Kong, the Wude, keeping the mind clear and used his own momentum against him to take him down. But think of this, it's once, he did this once. Fantastic of course but he remained undercooked/inexperienced in this area. It takes years of practice/refinement to improve on this area.

Come to Shenmue III, which is immediately after, he remains impulsive, lacking judgement and very headstrong. The first big dude in Bailu I was a little meh that Ryo couldn't take him down initially but given who he worked for he may well have been more skilled than the style suggested. The Red Snakes Boss is more intriguing, take out the moves Ryo learns to take them down a moment as they're similar. This is a style Ryo has not come across, hard hitting and fast, his movements flow. Ryo's style, because it lacks refinement is missing the speed and efficiency of power to take him down. Sun says as much in Bailu, he repeats Ryo is too slow. Master Bai says the same thing, that learning the move is only half the picture. So when Ryo finally takes down the Red Snakes Boss he's been able to apply what was needed at that time once, he's not done it consistently.

Now this does make the relative ease of how he takes down Lan Di's goons a little surprising, even though it was quite cool. He was never going to lay a finger on Lan Di, he doesn't have the tools to take down a Master of the Tiger Swallow Style yet. He's not far off given he beat Baihu but the difference between master and apprentice is huge. This is why I think a Shenmue 4 will have a segment/time period where Ryo hones in on his training, mind, body and spirit in order to take on the Chi Yu Men. He will also learn the move from the mysterious scroll which I'm convinced will take down Lan Di.

Anyway my point being if you analyse the fighters, styles and Ryo's character you can see why he does get beat and what he needs to do to overcome them. However that is only a short term gain, the longer term remains in his training focus.
 
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