Shenmue 3 Sales

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I mean 50/50 is better than 40/50... but that essentially means nothing.

What would getting on GamePass mean for Shenmue? How does Microsoft pay for that kind of thing?
 
You should also take into account that a copy sold on Epic Store generates more income for the developer than a copy on Steam :) 88% vs 70%. That's pretty big.
 
That's true, but you're also locking out folks who will only buy games on Steam. it seems like there was a sizable amount looking forward to Shenmue 3. I don't think it's so simple, unfortunately. Hopefully whatever EGS gave Deep Silver/Koch makes Deep Silver/Koch more lenient on Shenmue 3's overall sales.
 
You should also take into account that a copy sold on Epic Store generates more income for the developer than a copy on Steam :) 88% vs 70%. That's pretty big.


You should also take into account that considering Epic paid "in advance" it means the developper is seeing 0% on the number of copies Epic paid in advance.
 
You should also take into account that considering Epic paid "in advance" it means the developper is seeing 0% on the number of copies Epic paid in advance.
The big question for me is if it makes Deep Silver/Koch's investment less of a risk, would EGS be willing to make the same deal AGAIN for Shenmue IV? Not if sales didn't exceed their payoff. That's where I think relying on EGS is very dangerous. I get that Ys Net sees no money from Epic, but I don't think that's a bad thing if it makes the publisher's position better and finds them more likely to back another entry in the series. I'm surprised they're still pushing ahead with Darksiders if those games keep selling so poorly...
 
The big question for me is if it makes Deep Silver/Koch's investment less of a risk, would EGS be willing to make the same deal AGAIN for Shenmue IV? Not if sales didn't exceed their payoff. That's where I think relying on EGS is very dangerous. I get that Ys Net sees no money from Epic, but I don't think that's a bad thing if it makes the publisher's position better and finds them more likely to back another entry in the series. I'm surprised they're still pushing ahead with Darksiders if those games keep selling so poorly...


I don' tthink we'll even have to ask the question. Because Epic isn't going to keep paying for exclusives. If Shenmue IV was to be a thing, I'd guess at the earliest it'd be in 2 years.

Also, there's a big reason why DS keeps pushing for Darksiders: It's their property. I often see people claiming "Deep Silver/THQ N throws money at niche stuff". It's true. But keep in mind those deeper investments are their property. They own Kingdom Come's developper for instance. They own Darksiders. They'll likely never own Shenmue.
 
You should also take into account that considering Epic paid "in advance" it means the developper is seeing 0% on the number of copies Epic paid in advance.

;) trust me, more and more developers will provide temporary exclusives to the Epic Store. And it's not a bad thing at all, in fact Steam's already adapting and trying to lower the share they require from sales... anyway we'll see. A game like Satisfactory sold more than 500,000 copies on Epic Store in one year, and I don't think it had the same appeal as Shenmue.
 
Yeah, Sega wouldn't give up Shenmue, but I think the Shenmue name (obviously, otherwise Sega would just let anyone do what they want with it) is worth something even if it's not a big seller. It's an established franchise with a fan base. That equals some definite sales, even if they're not huge. I think that's why I'm a little more optimistic about Deep Silver continuing to support Shenmue.
 
Yes, Romain from Gameblog, who's also a huge Shenmue fan.

Assuming for one moment that one of the few people that knew the intricacies of what I’m assuming was a confidential deal did decide to tell a journalist (which seems very unlikely), there’s still plenty of information we’re not privy to.

If DS pocketed all of the money from the deal, I can only assume that it was in keeping with their deal with YSNet or we’d be seeing a law-suit and YSNet would not for a moment be considering continuing the partnership with DS after S3 (neither of which seem to be the case).

This would suggest that either YSNet received a cut of the deal or that their deal with DS allowed DS to retain the developer’s share of sales until a certain amount of their investment had been recouped (and in turn, that the money generated from the Epic deal did not bring in enough to cross that threshold). If the latter was the case, not signing the Epic Deal would have only increased the likelihood of YSNet not turning a profit on S3.

The alternative to these scenarios would be that there was a clause in the contract that said that DS wouldn’t have to pay YSNet for sales generated through exclusivity deals. Given their track record, does it seem at all likely to you that YSNet, Cedric Biscay and their lawyers would allow for such a clause given Deep Silver’s track record? It really doesn’t to me.

It’s all a bit of a moot point though. This conversation started with you highly doubting that Shenmue 3 will sell more copies on Epic than it would have on Steam, but as you’ve since agreed that it’s possible that it may have already sold more copies than it ever would have on Steam, I think we can stop here.
 
Here's what I surmised so far (correct me if I'm wrong on any parts):

Shenmue was backed by fans to the Kickstarter amount of 6.3 million.
And additional 700k was crowdfunded by slacker backers after the fact.
That brings the total amount to 7 million.
Obviously since many of those backers contributed more than say just either $29 (for a digital pc purchase) or $60 (physical purchase), the numbers that would all equate to retail sales wise is off.
We do know that the original Shenmue sold 1.2 million copies worldwide, still an impressive number for its time considering as long running the Yakuza series is, not one of its games ever hit that close, and the XBox version of Shenmue 2, which was not released in Japan btw, sold for something around 30k sales.
So this means not everyone who bought those games contributed to the kickstarter.

Recently in a Famitsu interview, Yu Suzuki confirmed the total budget for Shenmue 3 was around 12 million

We know the following companies helped Ys Net:
Sony (promotion and marketing)
Koch Media (promotion and marketing)
Deep Silver (publisher)
Shibuya Productions (co-producer)
Epic (helping with development with UE4)


We know SEGA didn't do anything other than allow Ys Net to use the Shenmue 3 license. They got no licensing fees or put any SEGA games into Shenmue 3; the most being nostalgic nods to some of Yu's past Sega games and some Sega merchandise like Virtua Fighter 1&3 posters, Space Harrier posters, Astro City arcade cabinets, capsule models of Hang on and Sega Saturn, and use of Shenmue 1&2 footage as well as some of its music and some of Afterburner music.

We know that Epic contributed 3 million late into the project in turn for a one year PC exclusivity through Epic Game Store, which did not exist until 2018, three years after Shenmue was revealed and kickstarted in 2015.

This means that out of that 12 million, 7 million was from fans, 3 million was from Epic, so that leaves 2 million.

That 2 million investment can be assumed to be from Sony, Koch Media, Deep Silver and Shibuya Productions.

Now if we were to hypothetically say each one of those 4 companies put in an equal share of investment towards that 2 million, then that would mean they each contributed 500k. Of course we don't know if its 'equal share investments' but whatever.

So this means they'd obviously want a return on that investment regardless of the actual size for each of those 4 companies.
So it wouldnt be far off to say they'd want to see double their investment (so take the 2 million and multiply it by two which would then be 4 million)

4 million would be about 70 to 100k copies sold (outside what was sold from the KS of course) when you subtract distribution costs as such.

In regards to sales, we don't know actual global figures yet, other than some tracking #'s for Europe, Amazon etc, but in Japan, via Famitsu Sales estimates, we learned that while Shenmue was the #1 opening game of its week (11/18/19 - 11/24/19) with a sales amounf of somewhere 17,857 sales, putting it in at #4 in the top 10 list.

However, the following week (11/26/19 - 12/01/19), it completely fell off that list entirely, and even plummeted further down beyond the top 30 list, with that week's 30th game's sales being Jikkyou Powerful Pro Yakyuu for Nintendo Switch, tracking in at 2,267 units sold by 12/1/2019.

So this leads me to believe the number there for Shenmue 3 is probably somewhere around 20k sales so far in Japan.

Of course this is for physical game sales only, and so there's also digital sales which is not the same as the distribution costs of selling and shipping physical media, however it should be noted Sony takes 30%. (Steam does too, but they wont be a factor until a year from now so they're a moot point)

While digital sales are not as popular as physical sales in Japan; they should still not be ignored.
Plus we know the West has adopted digital media much more than the East in this regard.

There's also the DLC season pass profits to consider (as well as Sony and Epic's cut on them (30% and 8%)

Then there's Epic's 3 million investment that wants a return on it. Of course, being on EGS, Epic takes their 8% cut in addition to whatever fees they charged for using UE4.

Therefore I estimate at best case scenario for all parties to get their investments back with a profit, the game outside of KS sales, needs to sell globally anywhere from 300 to 350k sales which includes physical and digital and DLC season passes.

Of course we also have to remember a lot of the purchases were higher than the $60 as many of them were deluxe editions as such.
Though the Black Friday sale also brought the base price down a bit like the Best Buy sale of $35 as well as some other retail stores but we dont know yet if that either hurt it or helped it...

Lastly, I want to say despite a lot of doom and gloom here early on, care to remember Square-Enix's investment of the Tomb Raider franchise had them invest 100 million in development towards Tomb Raider 2013; a reboot of the series.
That game within its first 3 months, failed to make back that investment, prompting to push Square-Enix to publicly say it was a failure (along with Sleeping Dogs and Hitman: Absolution).
However, over the course of a year, even before the game got ported to PS4/XB1, the overall sales jumped to somewhere around 9 million, more than returning its investment (need about 5 million copies sold to break even on a 100 million investment), and then went further on to acquiring another 2 million or so when it got ported so clearly Tomb Raider was a slow burn but a well invested one.
Not saying Shenmue is going to be like that exactly, but that some games, not all, as in the example of Tomb Raider 2013, make their money slower than others even though most games make most of their profits within the first month as they say.

So, a lot of things to consider here....
 
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The question remains would S3 sell more if it were not exclusive to epic and the answer is highly likely to be yes. As for Epic helping with S4,
Epic pays for exclusivity of games that are already in development and nearing completion. They dont fund 3rd party games completely, so until a potential Shenmue 4 is already actively in development Epic is completely irrelevant. Their money didnt go to YS Net anyway so that wouldnt be used towards s4 either.
 
I mean 50/50 is better than 40/50... but that essentially means nothing.

What would getting on GamePass mean for Shenmue? How does Microsoft pay for that kind of thing?
I think gamepass works basically like Netflix and also just pays upfront for a game to be on it if im not mistaken.
 
Were the game to have been on Steam instead, it would have missed out on a hell of a lot of free marketing (more importantly, the lion’s share).

I'd argue that appearing on the Steam store's "new releases" category - along with their refocused "recommended" category - would quite possibly be more effective than the trailers, in the sense that it would appear to players more likely to buy the game rather than just watching a video.
 
Correct, 2,338 copies in its second week from release, for a total of 19,891 physical PS4 copies sold in Japan ;)
That's not too horrendous really. Question is whether other regions have matched that or not. 2 weeks out from release and if it's sold 60-80k copies in physical terms that's not bad, of course it could also be better.

I'd suspect it's nearer 80-100k sales when digital are factored in currently, though this is all guesswork
 
Interesting post from another forum (credit : strangelite from Rllmuk)

The Kickstarter money is amortised into the project, *if* it cost 7m to develop (which is a big if) - there are various methods of accruing more money during the development period of the third game. Just having 7m on tap in a bank account opens up quite a lot of other avenues towards funding deals. Not least, Deep Silver / Koch Media who probably / possibly signed a first refusal on any sequel based on the recoupment of their monies down (an additional 5m, which to DS / KM is absolutely nothing) - I wouldn't be surprised if they agreed a sequel deal as part of the initial deal. Given Y.S's stance that he wants to make a series, I doubt he'd have signed away a record breaking kickstarter on a sales-dependent arrangement. He's not that desperate.

So - they haven't necessarily even "spent" 12m developing the game, let alone any side hustles they had from Sony during the kickstarter announce, or VC investment shenanigans in the building of the studio. (Remembering YS himself is probably pretty wealthy and well connected himself) - throw in any Epic game exclusivity deal (which will probably go against Koch Media / Deep Silver recoupment amount) means that they've [KS/DS] already made a profit which triggers their "lets talk sequels" clause.

Digital sales are a complete black box, but they're around 50% of boxed product (my data is a couple of years old so it's probably more than that by now) - so 30k physical sales isn't even half of what it's performed in a single region. It's very difficult to estimate a break even target sales figure for this game as it's so complexly financed, and without the development agreement, it's all just speculation anyway.

My suspicion will be that the recoupment rate on the third game (and the royality he's making) and the future recoupment / royality rate of the sequel will be dependent on metacritic and sales figures in some sort of way.

tldr;
There's no point saying "the sales of this game equate to the likelihood of the IV getting made" - that's absolutely not how it works and is a really basic way of looking at game financing.
 
Assuming for one moment that one of the few people that knew the intricacies of what I’m assuming was a confidential deal did decide to tell a journalist (which seems very unlikely), there’s still plenty of information we’re not privy to.

If DS pocketed all of the money from the deal, I can only assume that it was in keeping with their deal with YSNet or we’d be seeing a law-suit and YSNet would not for a moment be considering continuing the partnership with DS after S3 (neither of which seem to be the case).

This would suggest that either YSNet received a cut of the deal or that their deal with DS allowed DS to retain the developer’s share of sales until a certain amount of their investment had been recouped (and in turn, that the money generated from the Epic deal did not bring in enough to cross that threshold). If the latter was the case, not signing the Epic Deal would have only increased the likelihood of YSNet not turning a profit on S3.

The alternative to these scenarios would be that there was a clause in the contract that said that DS wouldn’t have to pay YSNet for sales generated through exclusivity deals. Given their track record, does it seem at all likely to you that YSNet, Cedric Biscay and their lawyers would allow for such a clause given Deep Silver’s track record? It really doesn’t to me.

It’s all a bit of a moot point though. This conversation started with you highly doubting that Shenmue 3 will sell more copies on Epic than it would have on Steam, but as you’ve since agreed that it’s possible that it may have already sold more copies than it ever would have on Steam, I think we can stop here.

Well yes, it all comes down to how much they planned in the deal. If it's only 100k though, I highly doubt that.
 
I feel like it's selling well enough on Epic.
 
The question remains would S3 sell more if it were not exclusive to epic and the answer is highly likely to be yes. As for Epic helping with S4,
Epic pays for exclusivity of games that are already in development and nearing completion. They dont fund 3rd party games completely, so until a potential Shenmue 4 is already actively in development Epic is completely irrelevant. Their money didnt go to YS Net anyway so that wouldnt be used towards s4 either.


It went somewhere.

Marketing perhaps.

Marketing is often overlooked by gamers. Even movies.(because often, both mediums fail to publicly reveal what they are)

I'm not sure why because marketing can either make or break a game outside its own development budget and choosing of its dev staff.

FF VII's development budget was 45 million. invested by Square themselves.

But its marketing budget was over double of that; contributed by Sony. Which paid off for them obviously in hindsight....

And during FF VII's time, both numbers were not revealed; only Sony's marketing push of 'More than 200 animators and programmers! A multimillion dollar production! Over two years in the making! And a cast..of thousands! They said it couldn't be done in a major motion picture. They.....were right! Final Fantasy VII!'


But notice neither Sony or Square ever specifically said just how much that 'multimillion dollar production' was. Just that it was.

Whereas SEGA were the ones who pushed out that development budget # to the public in an odd marketing tactic for Shenmue 1 as 'the most expensive game ever made' (for its time, even though that isn't true), which didnt exactly work out well for them as it only served for media outlets and non fans of the series fuel to serve as fuel to coin it as 'such a flop'.
Had SEGA never revealed those numbers, than at 1.2 million units sold. I doubt people would have estimated it being 'a flop'
 
Maybe the
It went somewhere.

Marketing perhaps.

Marketing is often overlooked by gamers. Even movies.(because often, both mediums fail to publicly reveal what they are)

I'm not sure why because marketing can either make or break a game outside its own development budget and choosing of its dev staff.

FF VII's development budget was 45 million. invested by Square themselves.

But its marketing budget was over double of that; contributed by Sony. Which paid off for them obviously in hindsight....

And during FF VII's time, both numbers were not revealed; only Sony's marketing push of 'More than 200 animators and programmers! A multimillion dollar production! Over two years in the making! And a cast..of thousands! They said it couldn't be done in a major motion picture. They.....were right! Final Fantasy VII!'


But notice neither Sony or Square ever specifically said just how much that 'multimillion dollar production' was. Just that it was.

Whereas SEGA were the ones who pushed out that development budget # to the public in an odd marketing tactic for Shenmue 1 as 'the most expensive game ever made' (for its time, even though that isn't true), which didnt exactly work out well for them as it only served for media outlets and non fans of the series fuel to serve as fuel to coin it as 'such a flop'.
Had SEGA never revealed those numbers, than at 1.2 million units sold. I doubt people would have estimated it being 'a flop'
$70 million figure was not accurate, as Yu later quoted it as being $47 million. As mentioned above, marketing might have contributed to be closer to that $70 million figure....as it was a Guinness World Record, and they don't just hand out those records like candy to any company who inflates a budget figure for marketing purposes.
 
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