Shenmue 4 has to change if there's to be a Shenmue 5

Does Shenmue 4 need to change to make no.5?

  • Yes, I agree

    Votes: 17 19.3%
  • Yes, but not that drastically

    Votes: 50 56.8%
  • No, you're crazy

    Votes: 10 11.4%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • No. Don't make a 5th. Finish with no.4

    Votes: 10 11.4%

  • Total voters
    88
Joined
Dec 19, 2019
Location
Tokyo
Shenmue has an image problem. It doesn't have a demographic, it isn't a Nintendo game, a fantasy game or have guns. It was originally sold to the Japanese as nostalgic 80s Japan, but its no longer in Japan. It's now in China, which isn't super marketable in Japan. Ryo is Japanese but doesn't have a sword, ninja stars or a huge tattoo on his back which is the only thing the west knows about Japan in video games. No one knows this series' strong points until they play it, everyone 'discovering' them. There's no doubt that these are some of the greatest games ever made, but they are a marketing executive's nightmare.

Shenmue 4 needs to change things up a bit therefore if Yu Suzuki wants a Shenmue 5. Great reviews might sell the game, but no one's going to spend money marketing it and Shenmue will never see another large budget, so Open-world innovation is out the window. If Shenmue 4 is the end then it may not need to change much, but no one would put up funds for Shenmue 5 if Shenmue 4 looks like Shenmue 3.

The action needs to be a much higher percentage of the content ( use the battle rally format) and it needs more humour. Remove the dating simulator conversations with shenhua and dial Ren up to 11. Think Shenmue 2 X Rush hour. Steal some yakuza ideas.

If the anime is a success maybe even make the graphics more anime-like and less toy story/shrek-like.

Only have one town and have the townspeople interactive as usual. Remove NPC voice acting if need be. Have yakuza style random fights in the town with ryo and ren and up to 10 enemies with these interactive residents being bystanders (or maybe even joining your side) that run away and close their shops. If they get injured or the shop is damaged the shop closes down until they heal/fix the shop.

Have an arcade with townspeople that challenge you and beat your top scores. Maybe have some games on a playable Dreamcast.

Basically I think this needs to be an arcadey/yakuza/rush hour game in a shenmue shell with an accompanied story and Open-world elements. Perhaps remove the day-to-day schedule if it prevents a fast pacing or allow for Open-world exploration after the linear story has been completed.

I'm not saying that I want these changes, and perhaps they are too drastic, but I think it's the only way to make it more palatable for a new audience and to generate funds for a Shenmue 5.

What do you think? Does 4 need to change the formula to attract fans for a 5th? Should 4 run the risk of ending the series prematurely by not selling enough?
 
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It sounds like you're saying Shenmue needs to be Yakuza/Judgment instead of being Shenmue. I get the points but we already have those games and the point of Shenmue is kind of something different in my opinion. I feel like excessive combat / random encounters would ruin everything - Ryo is a real person who happens to be a martial artist. He goes about his day, engaging in combat when need be - not this disconnected brawler who is the target of every random guy on the street etc. I think refining, distilling and utilizing all of the things Shenmue already IS is the way to go, rather than throwing hands up and loading the thing up with modern norms.
 
It sounds like you're saying Shenmue needs to be Yakuza/Judgment instead of being Shenmue. I get the points but we already have those games and the point of Shenmue is kind of something different in my opinion. I feel like excessive combat / random encounters would ruin everything - Ryo is a real person who happens to be a martial artist. He goes about his day, engaging in combat when need be - not this disconnected brawler who is the target of every random guy on the street etc. I think refining, distilling and utilizing all of the things Shenmue already IS is the way to go, rather than throwing hands up and loading the thing up with modern norms.
Yeah, I would prefer to keep it how it is, but this series needs more fans to continue beyond 4 and 3 didn't sell like hot cakes. What do you think should be done to define and distill it?
 
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It sounds like you're saying Shenmue needs to be Yakuza/Judgment instead of being Shenmue. I get the points but we already have those games and the point of Shenmue is kind of something different in my opinion. I feel like excessive combat / random encounters would ruin everything - Ryo is a real person who happens to be a martial artist. He goes about his day, engaging in combat when need be - not this disconnected brawler who is the target of every random guy on the street etc. I think refining, distilling and utilizing all of the things Shenmue already IS is the way to go, rather than throwing hands up and loading the thing up with modern norms.
100% agreed !

Shenmue must stay Shenmue :)
A fight in this game is a big event because it doesn't happen every 2 min.
Same i would not understand if they skip the day-to-day schedule
 
100% agreed !

Shenmue must stay Shenmue :)
A fight in this game is a big event because it doesn't happen every 2 min.
Same i would not understand if they skip the day-to-day schedule
It would be great to keep it the same, but Yu Suzuki may have a tough time convincing a publisher to pay for it based on 3's sales. How would you convince a publisher that it could make a profit from the current formula? Can you wait 20 more years for 4 or 5? I'm not sure I can, hence the topic XD
 
It would be great to keep it the same, but Yu Suzuki may have a tough time convincing a publisher to pay for it based on 3's sales. How would you convince a publisher that it could make a profit from the current formula? Can you wait 20 more years for 4 or 5? I'm not sure I can, hence the topic XD
I understand your point.

Hm I would say make a game more beautiful (even though I am ok with the look of shenmue 3)
Good graphic make sales.
But in any case I don't think Shenmue 4 can make 2 or 3 millions of sales

But I am sure if they change Shenmue in Yakuza type of game, they will lose a big part of the fan base (me included)
 
I understand your point.

Hm I would say make a game more beautiful (even though I am ok with the look of shenmue 3)
Good graphic make sales.
But in any case I don't think Shenmue 4 can make 2 or 3 millions of sales

But I am sure if they change Shenmue in Yakuza type of game, they will lose a big part of the fan base (me included)
Yeah that balance is tricky especially when you can't guarantee that new fans will come on board with any changes that are made. The bigger the changes the bigger the risk of alienating current fans. Having said that, Shenmue 3 also showed that some fans will be upset if nothing changes. So a potentially declining fanbase and the uncertainty of bringing in new fans might mean that making Shenmue 4 the final game (with few changes to the formula) is Suzuki's only real option.
 
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You bring up a good topic in fact.

If you go too far towards new fans do you alienate the fans who have been there from the beginning? If you cater too much for the fans do you close off your market?

What I will say is Yu Suzuki and the team are well aware of the flaws in Shenmue III and will be, I'm sure, working on them.
 
In my opinion no, Shenmue needs to stay like Shenmue. Shenmue doesn't have to be like GTA, doesn't have to be like Yakuza or other modern games. It has its own essence and charm, if you take out everything that makes Shenmue so unique then Shenmue will transform into just another modern game, i like modern games but Shenmue needs to stay like Shenmue.

Can you imagine a Shenmue game without Ryo asking the NPCs for informations and clues?

Can you imagine a Shenmue game without the notebook where Ryo writes all the informations and sometimes his feelings?

Can you imagine a Shenmue game without the day-to-day schedule?

Can you imagine a Shenmue game where Ryo will have knifes and guns and will kill everybody?

I don't like to imagine any of this, if Shenmue lose this unique essence it will be really sad for me, because if this happen a lot of things that i love about Shenmue will be gone, in a few words what i love about Shenmue is this unique and beautiful essence that i only see in Shenmue, playing Shenmue is like a therapy for me, one of the things i love about Shenmue III is the conversations between Ryo and Shenhua, another beautiful moment is the hide and seek moment, this calm moments is one of the things that makes Shenmue so unique for me.

I rememered now Yu Suzuki talking about the anime, he said that his job in the anime is advising people, for example that Ryo cannot have a knife in the anime, he is in charge of the world building in the anime, something like that. Shenmue is a martial art story, it really makes sense that Ryo cannot have knife and guns, only his fists, i think Yu Suzuki has a similar opinion to mine about what is the essence of Shenmue, that some things should never be allowed in a Shenmue game, and Ryo with knifes and guns is one of this things.

I like Shenmue III but i saw the flaws too, but this flaws don't have relation to the essence of Shenmue. What i didn't like about Shenmue III was that some side characters didn't had much development, characters like Shiling for example didn't had much story, another thing that i didn't like was how fast the stamina bar go down, i like the food system, it have a lot of different foods, for me was a nice addition but it needs improvements.

"I think refining, distilling and utilizing all of the things Shenmue already IS is the way to go," i agree with this. All i know is that i don't want to see Shenmue change drastically like that.

If Yu Suzuki one day have the opportunity to make Shenmue IV, then in Shenmue V if he don't have other options he could go with kickstarter again, i believe that the community will help so we can see the ending of the story.

I really understand your points, make Shenmue more appealing to casual gamers and things like that so the series can be more popular, but what i feel playing Shenmue games is a unique and beautiful feeling that i only feel when i play these games, i really don't want to see Shenmue changing drastically like that and losing this beautiful essence.
 
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Shenmue already has a bad reputation so fundamentally changing the formula to attract new players won't work IMO, it will only alienate existing fans.

That being said I do think some changes need to be made to the original design, and thankfully it seems so does Suzuki. This is evident since S3 did make a lot of QoL adjustments to "modernize" or at least make it more accessible than S1/S2. Unfortunately in doing so it introduced new systems that didn't complement the game but I'm hoping those will be fixed going forward.

I think the issue with Shenmue and attracting new fans isn't to change the formula (whatever that is) but to just improve the game quality, streamline the design, and add further QoL adjustments. Improving the writing, voice acting, and presentation (not necessarily graphics) will go a long way especially if the game is going to retain heavily speaking with NPC's. Likewise, don't make every NPC interactable, this will save budget and streamline design. Make nearly every NPC interaction meaningful and have rich dialogue, and make it so that if the player is trying to go through the main quest they get stuck as little as possible. No running around and asking everyone where to go next when only 1 or 2 NPC's will even point you forward. A good example on how to handle this is how searching for the Wulinshu in Wise Men's Qr. was done in S2.

Increase the pace of the story, have more action and set pieces where possible. This doesn't mean turn it into an action game but to give overall consideration to the plot and balance the pacing of action and investigation better. Keep and expand upon the options for players to engage in combat whenever they want i.e. the dojo or rose garden in S3. Reduce or outright remove the need to grind for money in the game and make it easy to get money by multiple means if necessary.
Ultimately, always give more options to the player where possible.

For QoL, reduce the slow animations for interacting to menus or drastically speed them up. Add the ability to warp/fast travel on the map, add the ability to fast forward time to any point in the day (this will allow more time specific events). I know people don't like way points but having them in line with the investigation will satisfy new and old players alike. e.g. Ryo still needs to ask around for directions to a shop but when he gets it it will mark the location on the map.

Overall, improve the quality of the game wherever possible and make it more accessible and people will respond. The formula doesn't need to fundamentally change but the design can be improved.
 
Great posts everyone.

One way to speed it up is to make the majority of the towns interaction optional, to not force the Shenmue experience onto new fans. In the lead up to Shenmue 3's release Yu Suzuki said that rushing through Shenmue 3's story would be stressful, so it's best to take it slowly. This suggests that he knows what the general gamer wants. Perhaps that aspect could change to allow for two different playing styles (or a mix of the two) during the game:

1) Enjoy the town, it's interaction and side quests at Shenmue 3's pace with it not tied to the story.
2) Allow for the game to be played with minimal story and a focus on action that can be easily found. I.e. markers on a map.

This is basically modern Open-world mechanics, but it can be married with Shenmue's depth in interaction. To keep costs down you could have one town and final fight area (think chobu and the castle), not have full voicing for NPCs (think Skies of arcadia style reactions on top of the text), reduce the amount of non-essential shops, reuse the Shenmue 3's soundtrack and make the game shorter in length. If it's too difficult to integrate the two, have them be selectable modes from the menu screen - Arcade mode and Shenmue mode.

Add recorded stats at the end (npcs recruited, thugs defeated, time played, a ranking), and it would make it a very replayable experience.

Rather than give the player the option to open up the world, it should give them the option to narrow the experience (to something that will sell i.e. action) if they wish.

Most importantly though general gamers shouldn't be forced to only play it within Shenmue's slow story-telling experience. It's unsustainable sales-wise and might shut down any further opportunities for sequels. Instead, Shenmue should adapt and allow for both playing styles.

Let's not forget who's in charge of making it. This would hardly rank in his top-10 of difficult things he's done in this series.
 
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5 will be perfect, IMO; despite Suzuki wanting 6, I think it can all be wrapped up in 5.

4 is too little, I feel :(
I said that because I am not sure that yu suzuki could make Shenmue 5 after shenmue 4
I would be very happy if there is 5, 6 or 7 games :)
More Shenmue is always better :)

This topic remind me a video which explain way better than me, why shenmue shouldn't change to stay unique
 
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This thread reminded me about Resident Evil. Resident Evil games changed a lot during the years, some people liked the changes and some people hated. Two major changes happened in the series, one major change with RE 4 and the other with RE 7.

Some old school fans didn't like the changes, some even think that the only true RE games is RE 1 till RE Code Veronica, and some fans accepted the changes and liked RE 4 till RE 7, one unique thing about RE games is saving in the typewriter and the save themes that played in this part, they removed that in RE 5 i think, i didn't like it that they remove that.

I accepted a lot of changes in RE, but in the case of Shenmue is different, Shenmue is so unique and different from other games. One beautiful moment in Shenmue III is when Shenhua wake up Ryo, when we leave Shenhua's house Shenhua say bye bye to Ryo, we can even see Ryo a little happy, and this with a beautiful soundtrack, moments like these make Shenmue so special and unique for me, so i really don't want to see Shenmue changing drastically like putting more violence and things like that, i like violent games too but Shenmue is not like that, Ryo only enters in fights when he is trainning with someone, when he wants to help other characters, when someone attack him first and when he really needs to fight someone to get closer to Lan Di.

Can you imagine a Shenmue game where Ryo is with a basebal bat and he can start a fight with everyone? i really don't want Shenmue to transform into something like this.

In the end of the day is Yu Suzuki project and vision, he should be able to complete the story how he sees fit like red said, but in my opinion changing drastically is not the way to go, and i think Yu Suzuki thinks like that too.

I think in Shenmue IV Yu Suzuki will evolve the Shenmue experience, he will improve a lot of things and add new things like he did in Shenmue III, but i don't think he will change Shenmue drastically, i just know that Shenmue needs to stay like Shenmue. 😊
 
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As I have stated in older discussions already I see no point in changing Shenmue. The changes would destroy Shenmue. It would make no sense to chance the series. Changes would mean you have to turn Shenmue into a mainstream game with mainstream gaming tropes. It would not be anything special anymore.
 
Shenmue already has a bad reputation so fundamentally changing the formula to attract new players won't work IMO, it will only alienate existing fans.

That being said I do think some changes need to be made to the original design, and thankfully it seems so does Suzuki. This is evident since S3 did make a lot of QoL adjustments to "modernize" or at least make it more accessible than S1/S2. Unfortunately in doing so it introduced new systems that didn't complement the game but I'm hoping those will be fixed going forward.

I think the issue with Shenmue and attracting new fans isn't to change the formula (whatever that is) but to just improve the game quality, streamline the design, and add further QoL adjustments. Improving the writing, voice acting, and presentation (not necessarily graphics) will go a long way especially if the game is going to retain heavily speaking with NPC's. Likewise, don't make every NPC interactable, this will save budget and streamline design. Make nearly every NPC interaction meaningful and have rich dialogue, and make it so that if the player is trying to go through the main quest they get stuck as little as possible. No running around and asking everyone where to go next when only 1 or 2 NPC's will even point you forward. A good example on how to handle this is how searching for the Wulinshu in Wise Men's Qr. was done in S2.

Increase the pace of the story, have more action and set pieces where possible. This doesn't mean turn it into an action game but to give overall consideration to the plot and balance the pacing of action and investigation better. Keep and expand upon the options for players to engage in combat whenever they want i.e. the dojo or rose garden in S3. Reduce or outright remove the need to grind for money in the game and make it easy to get money by multiple means if necessary.
Ultimately, always give more options to the player where possible.

For QoL, reduce the slow animations for interacting to menus or drastically speed them up. Add the ability to warp/fast travel on the map, add the ability to fast forward time to any point in the day (this will allow more time specific events). I know people don't like way points but having them in line with the investigation will satisfy new and old players alike. e.g. Ryo still needs to ask around for directions to a shop but when he gets it it will mark the location on the map.

Overall, improve the quality of the game wherever possible and make it more accessible and people will respond. The formula doesn't need to fundamentally change but the design can be improved.
These are fantastic ideas to improve the game in general, but if changing the formula won't attract new fans, what will? Is it possible for this series to survive on core fans alone?

Ultimately this leads to the uncomfortable question of (and this is for everyone) - Is fundamentally changing the game worse than not finishing the series? Would you rather finish the series through the anime or a manga? Personally, I'm of the opinion that you do whatever it takes to get the game over the line, but that's just me.

P.s. I'm not trying to antagonize anyone by the way, I'm as big a fan as everyone else. I'm just very curious about how this series survives on dwindling sales.
 
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