Shenmue 4 has to change if there's to be a Shenmue 5

[hmjohnny]

These are fantastic ideas to improve the game in general, but if changing the formula won't attract new fans, what will? Is it possible for this series to survive on core fans alone?

I think the answer is to improve the quality of the game, some of my suggestions on this were the writing/dialogue and presentation. Shenmue was never going to be CoD popular but it could have been as popular as the leading RPG's. However, I think to some extent, that ship has sailed. There will be limited options to attracting new fans especially since S3 was the best opportunity to do that and it seemed to have failed. Best bet IMO is improve the game quality the best the budget will allow and look for quick wins and hope word of mouth and good reviews carries it the rest of the way.

Ultimately this leads to the uncomfortable question of (and this is for everyone) - Is fundamentally changing the game worse than not finishing the series? Would you rather finish the series through the anime or a manga? Personally, I'm of the opinion that you do whatever it takes to get the game over the line, but that's just me.

I'm fine to see the series end in the anime or a book or something else if all else fails. I'd definitely prefer that to it dying in limbo.

As for your fundamental question "Is fundamentally changing the game worse than not finishing the series" I found this video recently which talks about the balancing act of updating series design vs fan expectations.


It touches on the challenges of weighing fan expectations against new design choices, especially if those choices don't necessarily lead to a bad game but fundamentally alter what fans liked about the originals. I think YSNet is going to have to weigh those decisions and the cost of alienating some of the existing fanbase, those who won't tolerate any change, to add new things that will bring in new players.

It seems Suzuki wanted to do this already with S3 but Cedric talked him down from it. It's interesting because S3 already did this by adding a lot of new gameplay ideas that weren't in the original. It's weird for me because so many people on this forum say that S3 felt like Shenmue to them but it only felt 50% like Shenmue to me. I wasn't a fan of many of the new additions and changes to the formula. Not because I'm a purist, I'd welcome changes if they made the game better, but I found that they didn't. So I'd rather they keep things the same (more or less) and up the quality of the storytelling, combat etc. and QoL adjustments that are optional to improve the game feel than add radical new and experimental gameplay ideas on the 4th entry of the series.

 

[9dragons]

Trying to attract new fans is a good idea in theory but I think that could be rather difficult. To like Shenmue, you either need to grew up with that type of games that were common in the 90s or be a youngster that got stuck in time and like old fashioned games.

For people that grew up in the GTA 3 era Shenmue is rather boring. Shenmue was a great game because it did many things first. It had a rather interesting story for a video game about that time. it also offered great freedom for the players at that point in gaming history.

But then the open world craze happened. Every game had to be sandbox. Even the story driven games , although story driven games do not need open world necessarily to be good. But the mainstream does not care about that.

Shenmue is not a game according to the taste of the mainstream. We can only hope that some indy lovers got into Shenmue. But I do not think it will ever get mainstream appeal.

 

[Sergeynest]

I think the answer is to improve the quality of the game, some of my suggestions on this were the writing/dialogue and presentation. Shenmue was never going to be CoD popular but it could have been as popular as the leading RPG's. However, I think to some extent, that ship has sailed. There will be limited options to attracting new fans especially since S3 was the best opportunity to do that and it seemed to have failed. Best bet IMO is improve the game quality the best the budget will allow and look for quick wins and hope word of mouth and good reviews carries it the rest of the way.


I'm fine to see the series end in the anime or a book or something else if all else fails. I'd definitely prefer that to it dying in limbo.

As for your fundamental question "Is fundamentally changing the game worse than not finishing the series" I found this video recently which talks about the balancing act of updating series design vs fan expectations.


It touches on the challenges of weighing fan expectations against new design choices, especially if those choices don't necessarily lead to a bad game but fundamentally alter what fans liked about the originals. I think YSNet is going to have to weigh those decisions and the cost of alienating some of the existing fanbase, those who won't tolerate any change, to add new things that will bring in new players.

It seems Suzuki wanted to do this already with S3 but Cedric talked him down from it. It's interesting because S3 already did this by adding a lot of new gameplay ideas that weren't in the original. It's weird for me because so many people on this forum say that S3 felt like Shenmue to them but it only felt 50% like Shenmue to me. I wasn't a fan of many of the new additions and changes to the formula. Not because I'm a purist, I'd welcome changes if they made the game better, but I found that they didn't. So I'd rather they keep things the same (more or less) and up the quality of the storytelling, combat etc. and QoL adjustments that are optional to improve the game feel than add radical new and experimental gameplay ideas on the 4th entry of the series.

I personally loved the new gameplay mechanics that they implemented in Shenmue 3; they felt to me like a natural progretion from the first two games.
If we compare Shenmue 3 with the first two games we realise that there is much more interactivity between Ryo and the world around him.
Ryo now eats and drinks to replenish his health; he works to earn money to eat to buy clothes; martial arts scrolls; etc...
He trains martial arts to improve his skills.
All these new mechanics make Ryo "Player" interact much more with the world and its inhabitants than in the previous titles.
The main problem I have with Shenmue 3 in this regard is that its system is very unbalanced.
Ryo's health depleats very fast in his first levels wich hurts exploration.
The items you exchange for tokens that you sell to earn money aren't very rewading for all the work that you have to go through to get them; specially Ryo's clothing that are extremely overpriced; wich also hurts the gaming experience.
As much as I like to admit; I can clearly see they made it this way to lengthen the game; but ultimatly for me it doesnt matter if it takes more 10 hours or so to finish the game; what it ended up doing was that I just gave up on collecting stuff because it didnt feel rewading enough for me.
I'm not saying this because I wanted instant gratification and as a matter a fact I rather enjoyed having to work hard to earn the money that was needed for the main quests in Bailu and Niaowu.
If they had balanced out both the stamina system and the economic system the overhaul experience would have been much more rewarding and would have motivated me to try and collect everything.
I guess also one of the reasons that they made it this way was because they knew that they were going to had the New Gameplay + mode.
Other than that I really enjoyed these new gameplay mechanics because they made me feel that everything was connected and had a purpose to exist within the game world making it feel more alive than in the previous games.
I really believe that if they improve these mechanics and balance them all out and make them feel a little bit more rewarding in Shenmue 4 that they can create a really enjoyable system for both fans and new players as well.

 

[orient]

Then you don't have to use it. Adding QoL adjustments for players that want them won't take away from players that don't. It doesn't fundamentally alter the design because the game is still played the same way.


I kind of agree with you here. I get that it does come down to level design (of which Shenmue is generally very good at) and that Shenmue isn't an actual open world game where traversing the map would take an inordinate amount of time. I also don't see it as a must have or to address a major complaint anyone had with the series but a nice to ahve among a list of other and more important improvements. I also see it as an extension of where the series is going as S3 already added the ability to warp to a story location and the ability to warp from the start of the day was present in the first game.

I think it depends on the size of the S4 in general. If we look at S2 the ability to have NPC's guide you to a location is like a precursor to a fast travel system. It could even be incorporated in the same way (instead of having Witcher 3 style signposts or whatever other open world games are doing) have Ryo talk to an NPC who says "i'll take you there" and instead of tediously waiting for the NPC to walk at the slowest possible pace like in S2 you just press a button and warp to the destination.

I think we need to remember that people play games differently and allowing (optional) freedom doesn't hurt the games for the people who won't use it, especially if Shenmue wants (or probably needs at this point) to appeal to a wider audience. I think we seem to be in agreement there.

Who knows you may even want to take advantage of such a feature on subsequent playthroughs.

I'm OK with the idea of a limited fast-travel, like being able to skip to the furthest part of the map, but again, that already kinda exists in the series. I'm personally not a fan of it because I do feel like it dilutes the experience, but it's cool if others use it, and I agree it's handy for subsequent playthroughs.

It's more that I don't think fast-travel is integral to bringing in new fans. I honestly feel like III was quite friendly in terms of getting around, and any niggles in this area they can improve with more shortcuts, etc.

Ultimately I think it's the quality of the existing elements that will bring more people in. The atmosphere, mystery, characters, exploration, combat...if small improvements are made in all areas, they will add up to a significantly improved game. The critical reception will improve, more people will be willing to give it a try.

But at the end of the day, we're talking about the fourth title in a story-driven series, the oldest game of which is now over 20 years old. There are various limiting factors that will stop Shenmue IV from ever catching fire in the same way as Persona 5 or Yakuza Zero did, or at the very least, make it extremely difficult.

 

[Alex banana]

But at the end of the day, we're talking about the fourth title in a story-driven series, the oldest game of which is now over 20 years old. There are various limiting factors that will stop Shenmue IV from ever catching fire in the same way as Persona 5 or Yakuza Zero did, or at the very least, make it extremely difficult.

Absolutely. It would be hard, but I think if Yu Suzuki gives Shenmue 4 an action-focused part from the Shenmue script, which presumably there must be, Shenmue could make some noise with some action worthy of an epic. I also don't think it has to be too much of a departure from what we've seen before action-wise, just more of it. Grab the action parts of previous games - the battle rally, the 70-man battle, some master teaches ryo an awesome move and add some emotional scenes which have been lacking since the very first scene, the death of someone important, potentially a few difficult moral choices for Ryo and you have some key ingredients to base the world around. It would be the perfect time for some actual loss instead of another kidnapping. This awful chi you men organization hasn't killed anyone in so long, I'm actually starting to forgive them! Haha. I'd also like to see Ryo fight someone with a gun. How would he fight against them. What technique would close up the distance between the enemy and take away the danger from the situation etc.

 

[9dragons]

Nice in theory Alex but how you wan to turn Shenmue into something action based? The great thing about Shenmue is that is not mindless action game. Every fight in the game has something to do with the story. Making Ryu running through the map and beating up armies of enemies in Kiryu Style would look stupid. Ryo is nothing like the one man army Kiryu. He is a normal guy that loses his fights sometimes as well. And that is one the aspects that makes Shenmue great. It feels different then other games.

In it's heart Shenmue is old school adventure game with open world and fighting elements. Action never was the main goal.

Of course you can butcher a game and turned into an action flick like capcom did with RE 4, 5 and 6. For some people it worked it well but for some old school fans it was the dead of a former great series.

Of course the RE Series got more action fans that way and Capcom could afford it to lose the old school fans.

But Shenmue has not that luxury. There are just the old fans. Nothing else. Most of the old Fans would not like more action. Shenmue lives already in the shadows of Yakuza. Putting more Yakuza elements into the game would just reconfirm that prejudice.

 

[sayuhhm]

Nice in theory Alex but how you wan to turn Shenmue into something action based? The great thing about Shenmue is that is not mindless action game. Every fight in the game has something to do with the story. Making Ryu running through the map and beating up armies of enemies in Kiryu Style would look stupid. Ryo is nothing like the one man army Kiryu. He is a normal guy that loses his fights sometimes as well. And that is one the aspects that makes Shenmue great. It feels different then other games.

In it's heart Shenmue is old school adventure game with open world and fighting elements. Action never was the main goal.

Of course you can butcher a game and turned into an action flick like capcom did with RE 4, 5 and 6. For some people it worked it well but for some old school fans it was the dead of a former great series.

Of course the RE Series got more action fans that way and Capcom could afford it to lose the old school fans.

But Shenmue has not that luxury. There are just the old fans. Nothing else. Most of the old Fans would not like more action. Shenmue lives already in the shadows of Yakuza. Putting more Yakuza elements into the game would just reconfirm that prejudice.

I think maybe the point is: hopefully the story itself in Shenmue IV lends itself to more action, like Shenmue II did! Not a barrage of senseless fights, but a solid string of story points that include intense action moments.

 

[LittleBoShenmue]

The whole point of post-Shenmue 1 open-world games, such as the GTA and the Yakuza series is to entertain millions of their fans in a fast action-packed way mostly by letting your character do everything that is normally considered a punitive crime.
Shenmue on the other hand has a "subtle" The Sims nature, where Ryo interacts with people around him according to how laws function in real life: be respectful, set a curfew, you have unfinished business that needs to be fulfilled and use violence when it's really necessary. Does this sound like a formula hardcore GTA fans would enjoy? Obviously no. Another curve to look for is the media coverage: even though the Shenmue series were revolutionary for the 1999-2001 era, many gaming magazines at the time were still taking baby steps and hardcore gaming was hardly mainstream, as platforms such as Youtube and Twitch were non-existant.
When I first found out about Shenmue, I almost immediately took a liking to it. The graphics were considered cutting edge for both 1999 and 2001, and although the survival mechanics of modern times were unimplemented, both games made up for the amazing writing and action-packed gameplay with some side-activities.
Yet another thing is the maturity of the fanbase. The Shenmue fanbase is comprised of mature people in their 30s and 20s (I for example am only 25), who are not whining about every aspect, such as game length and the Kickstarter, which is completely contrary to some hardcore GTA players. Shenmue 4? Of course it will happen. Ys Net have taken the feedback into consideration and all they need is a little more time.

 

[Sonoshee]

I think new fans are good and help the franchise to an extent, but really IMO it's always been about getting closure for current long-term fans.
We were the ones pushing for it all these years. We were the ones who backed a third game.
Shenmue's formula is unique and it shouldn't be altered or changed to appease those who weren't longing for it all these years.
I think this is why the anime has become a thing; if that is a success then Yu may be able to secure financial backing from the likes of Sega for Shenmue 4 and possibly even 5.
Besides, the next game may just change things up anyway, regardless of what fans want. Yu has always been good at tinkering & experimenting.

 

[Sergeynest]

I don't know what we can expect; but if by the end of next year if we don't get any news; id rather have Yu Suzuki admit that he couldn't manage to get the right funds to make Shenmue 4 than live in the dark until giving up hope for another sequel.
I know that not everyone would be up to it, but if possible I would rather pay a monthly fee to Yu Suzuki and Ys Net to developt the remaining of the series by keeping Shenmue's essence intact rather than having lose it just to please mainstream gamers in the hopes of gathering a bigger croud; to wich I think it is a fool's errant.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

In my opinion Shenmue III in Bailu Village have similar things to the first Shenmue, the slow pacing, the kids, Ryo have to go back to Shenhua's house similar to what he have to do in the first game, in the first game Ine-san take care of the house, in Shenmue III Shenhua take care of the house. In Shenmue III there are many things that have a Shenmue I Vibe and i love that.

I have a feeling that Shenmue IV will have a Shenmue II vibe, what do i mean by that? i mean that Shenmue IV will have more actions scenes like the second game, more action but in a Shenmue style.

Spoiler alert: In the end of Shenmue III Ryo is with Shenhua and Ren, from now on we will get much closer to the Chi You Men in my opinion, this means more action, more fights, probably in Shenmue IV we will see the others leaders. i think Xiuying will come back, imagine fights like Xiuying VS Ziming, Ren VS Niao Sun or other leader, another Ryo VS Lan Di fight.

Ryo training with a master, Shenhua using her powers, more revelations, maybe someone important will die, maybe Ren will die, can you imagine Ren dying to save Ryo? this can be really emotional. Shenmue IV have the potential to have amazing action, fight scenes, emotional and intense scenes, all this in a Shenmue style would be awesome and epic in my opinion.

In my opinion Yu-san will not change everything about the Shenmue experience, maybe he will change just a few things, improve other things and add new things but the Shenmue feeling will continue strong there. Some things i think he will never change like the only thing Ryo will continue to use to fight is his fists, Shenmue is a martial arts story so it makes sense not changing this.

All i know is that i love the Shenmue essence and experience, what i feel playing Shenmue games is a beautiful and unique feeling, i dont feel the same thing playing other games.

I don't know what we can expect; but if by the end of next year if we don't get any news; id rather have Yu Suzuki admit that he couldn't manage to get the right funds to make Shenmue 4 than live in the dark until giving up hope for another sequel.
I know that not everyone would be up to it, but if possible I would rather pay a monthly fee to Yu Suzuki and Ys Net to developt the remaining of the series by keeping Shenmue's essence intact rather than having lose it just to please mainstream gamers in the hopes of gathering a bigger croud; to wich I think it is a fool's errant.

I agree with you, i would rather pay a montly fee to Yu Suzuki and Ys Net to developt the remaining of the series by keeping Shenmue's essence intact rather than having lose it just to please mainstream gamers.

 

[9dragons]

I would also willing to back up Yu San and Ys Net in order to get the series on the right track again. If we will count on the mainstream to move the series forward then we will have to wait forever.

 

[Creward]

Honestly, reading most of the massive tonal/genre switch wouls make me turn away of the saga. I did stop playing shining series when Sega did go to the action hack slash route after the marvelous Shining Force 3.

I would probably loathe the Shenmue that turns like another "sandbox" open world a(s I am fed up of them) or another "modern" setting jrpg like Yakuza or Persona. I am completely fine with the "point and click classic Sierra" interactive story that Shenmue or Life is Strange are.

Shenmue (or shenmuelike games) could have its niche market easily if the presentation of the game is polished enough but I reckon it is hard to make Shenmue 4 mainstream, a lot of people will pass on a numbered series that they did not play the previous entries.

 

[bcdcdude]

I think there is a balance in allowing for certain QoL situations to make Shenmue more contemporary, but also being true to its core design so as to not lose the 'feel 'of Shenmue.

What's quite interesting about Shenmue III is that i'm enjoying my time with it much more a 2nd time around, because i'm not having to worry about eating all the time. I'm not opposed to a stamina system, but it needs to be much more streamlined as it felt too stop-start for my tastes.

Shenmue II had a perfect balance of action and calmness, so something like that is a good frame of reference to use. My favourite parts of Shenmue involves the little things like looking in drawers, late nite chats with Shenhua; things that add bugger all to the gameplay but a huge amount to world building and the feeling of being somewhere else.

What I don't want Shenmue IV to do is to follow current trends in a bid to be contemporary. In another media, in the early 90's a lot of hair metal bands saw the way the wind was blowing, so they turned grunge and in the end they embarassed themselves because they seemed quite desperate.

We need more people on board for Shenmue IV, but at the same time, I don't think its the be all and end all. Yakuza 0 was successful many games in, because it struck a balance of being an entry level game for new fans and a shit ton of fan service for older ones. Persona and Final Fantasy work because they can have a whole new universe for each entry. Shenmue doesn't have that, so is in a particularly tricky situation. Then again, there are much more niche games that are many games in, so they can't be doing that bad. Maybe the budget is smaller, but as many of us have said; the hard part of learning UE is done and dusted.

Quite frankly, i'd be content with Shenmue IV not looking that much different from Shenmue III. Perhaps tidy up some of the side characters, allow for bigger text (some of it is unreadable and I use a 42" TV!) and do some small QoL improvements and you're gold~

 

[Radar]

I've seen a lot of people saying how outdated game mechanics in Shenmue(as series) are and that they are not up to modern standards. But at the same time I don't remember anyone mentioning what are modern standards equivalent would be like.

And I am actually curious, no sarcasm or anything.
But don't just call something outdated without specifically explaining what why and how would you make it to feel modern and/or provide an example of another game that made it right.

And again I'm not saying that they all wrong, times and technologies changes and evolves as it always been. But I do believe in - If it ain't broke don't fix it

 

[9dragons]

That is good question. Modern standards is just a buzz word used in the gaming internet. It does not has a real meaning, at least not for me. They guys from digital foundry used this words very often and the gaming kids in the internet just copied the word I guess.

Tech wise games evolve but gameplay wise. Gameplay wise there has not been a single improvement since the dawn of 3d gaming. All the open world games famous today are just a amalgamation of the genres that were born in the 5th generation. They just mixed them together into single game.

Any attempt so far to really move the gameplay forward failed. Move controls could not replace classic controls. Besides the Wii move controls for other platforms failed miserably like PS move and the Project Natal from MS. VR is also not going to replace classic gaming.

I really wonder what these modern standards are.

 

[Tortu-genial]

I've seen a lot of people saying how outdated game mechanics in Shenmue(as series) are and that they are not up to modern standards. But at the same time I don't remember anyone mentioning what are modern standards equivalent would be like.

And I am actually curious, no sarcasm or anything.
But don't just call something outdated without specifically explaining what why and how would you make it to feel modern and/or provide an example of another game that made it right.

And again I'm not saying that they all wrong, times and technologies changes and evolves as it always been. But I do believe in - If it ain't broke don't fix it

Your reflexion remind me of this video

Which I am 100% agree with

 

[The Hero Spot]

I've seen a lot of people saying how outdated game mechanics in Shenmue(as series) are and that they are not up to modern standards. But at the same time I don't remember anyone mentioning what are modern standards equivalent would be like.

And I am actually curious, no sarcasm or anything.
But don't just call something outdated without specifically explaining what why and how would you make it to feel modern and/or provide an example of another game that made it right.

And again I'm not saying that they all wrong, times and technologies changes and evolves as it always been. But I do believe in - If it ain't broke don't fix it

The series needs to improve it’s voice acting, character models and animations and writing going forward. I don’t think Shenmue is outdated when it comes to its gameplay mechanics, I think it’s biggest problem right now is it’s presentation. Shenmue 3 isn’t mechanically outdated but to someone not well versed about Shenmue, they’d likely think it’s outdated at first glance.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

Your reflexion remind me of this video

Which I am 100% agree with

I agree with the person that did this video. I don’t say words like "dated" and things like that when it comes to art, and games are art.

If i play FF VII PS1 now it will not have any value anymore just because it was released in 1997 and things like that? the FF VII remake has more value than the FFVII classic? if i play Shenmue I and II now it will not have any value just because of the release date and things like that? for me of course it will continue to have value because is art and art don’t have a expiration date, and in art we don’t need to do things in the same way as others are doing it, people have different styles, Yu Suzuki have his own style of doing games.

I have an unpopular opinion so is nice to see a video that a person have a similar opinion to mine. I love the Shenmue experience, i like even the cheesy dialogues when we talk to the NPCs, but i prefer to play in japanese. I remembered some dialogues in Shenmue III with NPCs that was really funny, and this is one of the things i love about the Shenmue experience.

It is interesting how people have different opinions, some people think that Shenmue is a boring game, and some people think it is a masterpiece. For me Shenmue is a masterpiece, it is different, special and unique, a beauty work of art.

 

[Creward]

The series needs to improve it’s voice acting, character models and animations and writing going forward. I don’t think Shenmue is outdated when it comes to its gameplay mechanics, I think it’s biggest problem right now is it’s presentation. Shenmue 3 isn’t mechanically outdated but to someone not well versed about Shenmue, they’d likely think it’s outdated at first glance.

Pretty much this, the "outdated" aspect said in the internet is the feel/presentation with the combo of animations, voiceacting and menus which in Shenmue3 are rough in a lot of aspects (even if the english dub being an homage to the originals) and that presentation is a hard sell to modern audiences.

For example, the full speed walking animation loop (no running full analog stick pressed) even to me feels a bit off (it is the one I used the most) it looks like a walking speed of someone rushing, almost to what I would expect a person crossing a semaphore that is blinking) with its big arm swings and such. So just in my experience the animation loop at aroun 0.7 to 0.8 of the analog position feels a lot nicer as a walking animation.

And believe it or not this kind of details are quite important to the feel of the game for newcomers and even some developers call it as "juice"