Shenmue IV Will Happen - Here's Why!

[spud1897]

but that's not a game fault.
during 20 years people can changes a lot, tastes changes and so on

What is sure is that Shenmue 3 was always meant to be a more introspetcive game, so lots of people would be disappointed even with a 2003 Shenmue 3, coming from Shenmue 2 with all the blazing action.

No it's not but even the most avid of Shenmue fans would agree the story is light. I actually thought the action stuff in 3 was fine and would be happy with that or more in a Shenmue IV

Expectations certainly come into some peoples disappointment, I won't repeat what I said above.

My point being (and I do believe this given the recent twitter outpour of goodwill towards the franchise following the Sega Shop Tweet) that the game wider of the known communities has been better received by fans (not sales just opinions) and that actually more want a Shenmue IV than not. I also think it can appeal to more than it's core fanbase with the right push/investment. Whether we get that investment is another discussion.

What I want is a full Shenmue experience like the 1st 2 games. Story, development, FREE etc.

Well, we didn't get the full package. I didn't say Shenmue 3 has no story. I said it doesn't have a meaningful one, which encompass decent writing, character developpement and such.

Which means, according to you, we got a fake Shenmue (going by your words here).

I'd disagree in that we got to meet people who trained with Iwao and Zaho etc, lore on the mirrors and some hints of what's to come. Just not enough of it. What we got had meaning but it's fair to say more would have been nice.

Just as a record for anyone going forward anyone calling anyone's Shenmue view fake, opinion fake etc will get a warning followed by a ban. We can disagree respectfully

@GhostTrick for clarity this isn't aimed at you specifically but as a general post.

 

[iknifaugood]

we can already stop here, call those "luxuries" means only that we have a totally different vision about Shenmue.

Right, so then it's not wrong to suggest that minigames are as important to you as the story. Unless you want to clarify.

It's the best we could have as a kickstarter project.
To have a Shenmue 3 without compromises, we should live in a different timeline when Sega won and we had Dreamcast 2, but unfortunately that's not the case and it's useless to continue to whine about it.

It's not an either or just because you phrase it like that. Shenmue 3 could have been better using the exact same resources if the project was more focused, better prioritized, and less concerned with trying to please the fans with expensive frivolities like two dubs, fully voiced NPCs, and forklift driving.

Then I 'm afraid Shenmue is not for you.

If Shenmue 4 continues to be bad then you're absolutely right.

Well, I used to think the same but I remember @LemonHaze making a pretty convincing post about that and how specifically Shenmue I and II took multiple parameters into account.

Even though when it comes to 3, I don't know if those elements remains. In any case, the FREE system today makes me think more of a traditionnal 3rd person game with a 1st person view locking on point of interests.

I've always hated the term FREE, as if a new genre was being invented, which is not for the marketing team to decide. Shenmue doesn't have the mechanical grabbag that true open worlds have, it doesn't do anything especially new or different from an RPG besides having an ultra detailed world where every NPC can be interacted with (luxuries that a KS game has no business wasting money chasing) and it no longer offers the most mechanically satisfying fighting mechanics outside an actual fighting game. So what is it about FREE that's so unique and worth preserving at the cost of everything else?

 

[hmjohnny]

The thing about a graphic novel is that, while it’s certainly cheaper than making a game, it still comes with a host of issues. First of all, Suzuki has no experience writing for the medium, which is entirely narrative based and whatever story exists will need to be adapted. Second, what publisher is going to take on an IP like this without crowdfunding? It’s specifically designed for a small audience, many of whom have no interest in Shenmue as anything other than a game as is. Lastly, is it going to be one massive graphic novel? I thought Shenmue has like 6-7 chapters left; if we’re talking multiple novels starting from the halfway point then that’s even less likely.

I was envisioning a graphic novel, or just novel, that finishes the story not restarts it. As for how many that would require, it would depend on how much was left and how long that took to write out. This would be done as a concession to the fans as a send off, not as a re-imagining of Shenmue to a new audience.

I agree that realistically a game publisher wouldn't take this project but it would be substantially cheaper to produce and I think there would be enough interest to make a small profit on it. I'm not saying this is the route they should take, or that I even prefer, but I just don't see a way forward here. Obviously Suzuki wants to make the games or he would have provided an alternative in the last 20 years, but if Shenmue 4 can't be made or made well what do we do then?

As fans our voices in getting some conclusion should be important. However, we also need to be realistic on what that conclusion is. As far as I can tell Shenmue is done. We may or may not get another game but I feel the quality of it is a foregone conclusion. For me, I just want closure on the story so I can move on. If that comes in a game form then great, but it depends on if Suzuki can realistically achieve that.

I'll say again what I've said before, regardless of how this plays out we should petition to have the original scripts released. It won't cost much to do so, they can even charge for them, and I'd like to think there would be enough interest from the community to get it done. That is if they even exist as it seems so much of the original story was changed there may be no master copy left.

 

[hmjohnny]

Each individual can like Shenmue for different reasons, we you can't lost sight of what Shenmue really is, especially as fans.
Shenmue is unique for the FREE, and that's the reason why we are still here after 20 years, the story was just one of the many tools for the "FREE".
I undertand that story is dear to many (Shenmue is also one of my favourite worlds, and not just in videogames), but when it become the sole focus at the espense of eveything else, it means that some fans vision has become distorted.

I think you have it backwards, the story was always the primary driving factor, the gameplay was there to serve the story.

I don't think we'll agree on that but that's the crux of the point really, it seems that the fan base is fractured in what they want from Shenmue 3/going forward. I agree with the sentiment that there is no reason to continue Shenmue except to conclude its story. Otherwise the gameplay isn't meaningfully significant and there are other, more gameplay forward, games that are done better in that regard.

The reason I think there is so much contention on these forums surrounding the perceived negativity towards Shenmue, the responses that border on apologetics defending the game, and the hostility at both ends is because a battle is being fought among the fans for the future the of the series.

If you get your way I won't continue to be a Shenmue fan, if I get my way, you won't. We want Shenmue to be different things and are fighting for the visibility to have it be the way we want.

To be fair, I can't blame anyone for liking Shenmue for what it is. I like Shenmue for what I think it has the potential to be. It really could have been the defining epic of our generation, our LOTR, with such a unique and rich concept. But it was bungled and has now become a pariah among the gaming press.

Going forward I want closure. I want to know if this story really is any good, or if it was all aesthetics, window dressing for a game where you fight endless thugs framed in a basic revenge plot.

If that's what Shenmue is to you great, I'm glad something exists that makes you happy. For me, I'll dream about what could have been and move on to something else.

 

[iknifaugood]

I like Shenmue for what I think it has the potential to be. It really could have been the defining epic of our generation, our LOTR, with such a unique and rich concept.

I think it's inarguable that this was the original goal of the series. I've said elsewhere that if you think that Sega invested $70+M on a flagship title for the Dreamcast for a weird life simulator then you're crazy. Shenmue was always supposed to have mass appeal; a precursor to the ultra budget AAA games we see today. Just because it failed to reach a wider audience doesn't mean it wasn't trying to. And (at least to me) doesn't mean that it should acquiesce itself to its niche status, it's clearly trying to tell a bigger, action/adventure mystery story with a huge cast, not an introspective character piece. It has way more in common with something like Star Wars, Harry Potter, or LOTR than, say, Taxi Driver.

If you get your way I won't continue to be a Shenmue fan, if I get my way, you won't. We want Shenmue to be different things and are fighting for the visibility to have it be the way we want.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

 

[hmjohnny]

No it's not but even the most avid of Shenmue fans would agree the story is light. I actually thought the action stuff in 3 was fine and would be happy with that or more in a Shenmue IV

Expectations certainly come into some peoples disappointment, I won't repeat what I said above.

No question expectations came into play, it's inevitable. We all had almost 20 years to stew on that ending to S2 and fantasize about how the game was going be. Even adjusting expectations given the KS release can only curb that enthusiasm so much.

With regards to the story being light though, I'll be honest it has me really worried. I can understand things being cut but it really does seem that Shenmue's story in general is lighter than I expected. Maybe S4 will prove me wrong but I'm starting to get the feeling that the setup from S2 was a good chunk of the story condensed to a bunch of good parts leading me to believe Shenmue was a lot bigger than it was and the real pacing would have been at trickle pace and mostly just aesthetics for a straightforward plot.

Maybe you're right though and fan inputs really changed what Suzuki had originally planned.

 

[spud1897]

No question expectations came into play, it's inevitable. We all had almost 20 years to stew on that ending to S2 and fantasize about how the game was going be. Even adjusting expectations given the KS release can only curb that enthusiasm so much.

With regards to the story being light though, I'll be honest it has me really worried. I can understand things being cut but it really does seem that Shenmue's story in general is lighter than I expected. Maybe S4 will prove me wrong but I'm starting to get the feeling that the setup from S2 was a good chunk of the story condensed to a bunch of good parts leading me to believe Shenmue was a lot bigger than it was and the real pacing would have been at trickle pace and mostly just aesthetics for a straightforward plot.

Maybe you're right though and fan inputs really changed what Suzuki had originally planned.

I'd like to hope I am but until we get Shenmue 4 on hopefully a same budget we wont know.

 

[Suzaku]

I think you have it backwards, the story was always the primary driving factor, the gameplay was there to serve the story.

I'm sorry but this is wrong
Yu Suzuki's goal with Shenmue was always to create a living world, it was a continuation of his previous works where he always tried to simulate life...
Story was always one of the tools to achieve this goal.
Of course gameplay also serve the story, but the main purpose of Shenmue is the living world, Suzuki didn't created Shenmue just to tell a story, that's Kojima...

I don't think we'll agree on that but that's the crux of the point really, it seems that the fan base is fractured in what they want from Shenmue 3/going forward. I agree with the sentiment that there is no reason to continue Shenmue except to conclude its story. Otherwise the gameplay isn't meaningfully significant and there are other, more gameplay forward, games that are done better in that regard.

Wrong even there
Shenmue was always and still is a unique experience because of its gameplay, flow etc.
Something that we still can't find in other open world games even after 20 years, especially since mainstream OW games taken another evolutionary path from FREE.

So as long Shenmue remain SHENMUE, it make sense to continue the series.
If it will be downgraded to something different, then you could say "there are better games out there that do the same thing".

The reason I think there is so much contention on these forums surrounding the perceived negativity towards Shenmue, the responses that border on apologetics defending the game, and the hostility at both ends is because a battle is being fought among the fans for the future the of the series.

If you get your way I won't continue to be a Shenmue fan, if I get my way, you won't. We want Shenmue to be different things and are fighting for the visibility to have it be the way we want.

It would be the right way to read the current situation but
the problem is Shenmue 3 doesn't belong to another game genre or something, Shenmue 3 IS SHENMUE, the fact that it doesn't cover the amount of story people expected, doesn't make it less Shenmue (also the story covered in 3 is very important for the series, something that is always ignored in these discussions).

On the contrary, downgrading Shenmue to another game genre or even another media just for the sake of the story, now this is changing the essence of the series, and it's just a deviation, probably the result of the long pause...

As soon people understand this simple truth, the sooner we will return unite as a community.

To be fair, I can't blame anyone for liking Shenmue for what it is. I like Shenmue for what I think it has the potential to be. It really could have been the defining epic of our generation, our LOTR, with such a unique and rich concept. But it was bungled and has now become a pariah among the gaming press.

Going forward I want closure. I want to know if this story really is any good, or if it was all aesthetics, window dressing for a game where you fight endless thugs framed in a basic revenge plot.

If that's what Shenmue is to you great, I'm glad something exists that makes you happy. For me, I'll dream about what could have been and move on to something else.

That's also when unrealistic espectation comes into play.
Shenmue plot was always a basic revenge story since Shenmue 1, nothing more nothing less.
Where Shenmue shines is in the way (even unconventional way) the game tell the story, not just with some cutscenes, but by making the player feel inside that world and that plot, inside the life of Ryo.
That's why the world is fully built, you can explore and enter anywhere, talk to everyone, living the daily life of Ryo (the "life simulation" that some of you now hate) etc.

That's what make Shenmue and its story special.

 

[hmjohnny]

I'm sorry but this is wrong
Yu Suzuki's goal with Shenmue was always to create a living world, it was a continuation of his previous works where he always tried to simulate life...
Story was always one of the tools to achieve this goal.
Of course gameplay also serve the story, but the main purpose of Shenmue is the living world, Suzuki didn't created Shenmue just to tell a story, that's Kojima.

Suzuki came up with the concept of the story first and hired writers from different disciplines to flesh it out. This was done before almost anything else. There's no denying Suzuki likes his simulations and wanted to incorporate that into the game. However, that doesn't seem to be the case with S3.
Here's the relevant part:

Suzuki brought in a screenwriter, a playwright, movie directors and other kinds of writers for "borderless development," a multi-level way of writing the script that wouldn't be solely honed in a gameplay-focused script. The writers created eleven chapters for the game, then created eleven corresponding illustrations.

So as long Shenmue remain SHENMUE, it make sense to continue the series.
If it will be downgraded to something different, then you could say "there are better games out there that do the same thing".

Shenmue isn't a unique experience because of its gameplay alone. It was when it came out but that was because of the technical advancements it had. I would also argue that Shenmue isn't really an open world game (not in the modern sense of the term) so that genre doesn't really apply. Also, you misread me I wasn't meaning there were other games doing the same thing better, but better games that focus on their gameplay.

I have no idea what makes Shenmue "Shenmue" according to you. Shenmue is a finite story. There will be a finite number of games one way or another. So you're statement that it makes sense to continue the series and not care about the story makes no sense. by definition Shenmue can't go on forever no matter the budget.

Wrong even there
Shenmue was always and still is a unique experience because of its gameplay, flow etc.
Something that we still can't find in other open world games even after 20 years, especially since mainstream OW games taken another evolutionary path from FREE.

It would be the right way to read the current situation but
the problem is Shenmue 3 doesn't belong to another game genre or something, Shenmue 3 IS SHENMUE, the fact that it doesn't cover the amount of story people expected, doesn't make it less Shenmue (also the story covered in 3 is very important for the series, something that is always ignored in these discussions)..

Shenmue is an action RPG, it's not genre defying. FREE isn't a genre it's a marketing term. I defy you to describe to me what FREE means in any meaningful way.

On the contrary, downgrading Shenmue to another game genre or even another media just for the sake of the story, now this is changing the essence of the series, and it's just a deviation, probably the result of the long pause...

As soon people understand this simple truth, the sooner we will return unite as a community.

Yes it is changing the essence of the series because without it the series cannot continue. We don't live in the timeline where Shenmue was a smash hit on the DC and AM2 is still at the helm. In our universe Shenmue is derided and mocked for being clumsy and awkward with a diminishing fanbase and even greater diminishing budget and no certainty of its future. What we are discussing is the REALISTIC future of this series, not the IDEAL one.

That's also when unrealistic espectation comes into play.
Shenmue plot was always a basic revenge story since Shenmue 1, nothing more nothing less.

Then Shenmue sucks, nothing more nothing less.

Where Shenmue shines is in the way (even unconventional way) the game tell the story, not just with some cutscenes, but by making the player feel inside that world and that plot, inside the life of Ryo.
That's why the world is fully built, you can explore and enter anywhere, talk to everyone, living the daily life of Ryo (the "life simulation" that some of you now hate) etc.

That's what make Shenmue and its story special.

I strongly agree with you here but I think you have story confused solely with plot. All of those aspects, the "life sim" stuff, environments, etc. especially when done well was there to strengthen immersion and world build. All of that is in service to the story.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's also when unrealistic espectation comes into play.
Shenmue plot was always a basic revenge story since Shenmue 1, nothing more nothing less.

If you can explain what the mirrors, the poem, and the Shenmue tree have to do with a basic revenge story, then you can have that point.

 

[Rydeen]

So until DS got involved Shenmue 3 was... what, exactly? What is Niaowu if not a collection of minigames and side activities? Most of the main quest is designed around grinding for money and moves, so those had to have been implemented early on. What you're saying is that S3 is the best it could possibly have been, and the best we can hope for which, if true, will cause a chunk of the already small fanbase to abandon the series outright. I have no desire to play another 25+ hour game where maybe 5 of those hours is spent progressing the story or developing the characters.

It's unclear if it coincided with Deep Silver's partnership, but Suzuki mentioned that the initial plan was for Bailu to be a smaller, "closed world," to contrast a more open world in Niaowu. They started adding various ideas to Bailu, and it expanded to be basically the opposite. The downstream effect caused Niaowu to expand in kind. I don't imagine that happens without an influx of cash, personally. Reference is the 2019 interview at TGS:


Fully voiced NPCs are a huge part of the games. That's probably the last thing that would get cut from these projects. It's the same kind of thing that leads the interviewers in the video above to ask if there would be forced encounters from bumping into thugs while walking around town, and having them both let out a sigh of relief when he says, "no." I mean, it's clear that you don't care about any of the gameplay aspects of the Shenmue series, but you're also trying to play gatekeeper by demanding that the plot take center stage; Anyone who cares about anything else be damned, you call the shots here, am I right? Why would anyone care about integrating the story into a living, breathing game world like the first three games, am I right? It's probably just nonsense, since you can't see the value in that at all. You might want to just spend another 100 posts or so trying to tamp down any expressions of gratitude toward the series in its current state, just to make sure, though.

 

[hmjohnny]

Why would anyone care about integrating the story into a living, breathing game world like the first three games, am I right? It's probably just nonsense, since you can't see the value in that at all. You might want to just spend another 100 posts or so trying to tamp down any expressions of gratitude toward the series in its current state, just to make sure, though.

Not @iknifaugood, but I want to respond to this sentiment lest I be accused of the same thing from my own posts.

I don't think he, or I, or anyone making the argument that story take center stage doesn't believe there is no value in having a fully immersive world with the LOD of the previous games. Everyone here wants Shenmue 2 again, we just realize that is not a realistic option for the series going forward.

Shenmue 3 already made a bunch of concessions due to budget, it's not a AAA game. I think we are all fine with that, I personally don't fault the game for having technical limitations, a simpler fighting system, not having top tier graphics or production values etc. In fact I'm generally impressed with what they were able to accomplish with the budget they had in that regard.

But going forward Shenmue will be a small budget game. That budget needs to be prioritized. There are a lot of cost cutting measures that can easily be made, cutting the voice acting would be one of them without having to reduce the scope of the world. On some level though the LOD does need to decrease in order to have the length of the game to tell the story fully though. How much, I don't know, that's up to what Suzuki and co. can accomplish.

To say we don't care about the gameplay is not true. It's just that I care about Shenmue specifically to know the rest of the story and the ending at this point. There is a good chance Shenmue 4 won't ever come out and if it does it may not conclude things. We were lucky to get S3 at all, lets count our blessings and not be chasing dragons or pipe dreams.

We have to be realistic here, and as fans we need to let our voices be heard on this or we will never see the end of Shenmue, it will just die like this in limbo.

 

[Yokosuka]

Shenmue 3 already made a bunch of concessions due to budget, it's not a AAA game. I think we are all fine with that, I personally don't fault the game for having technical limitations, a simpler fighting system, not having top tier graphics or production values etc. In fact I'm generally impressed with what they were able to accomplish with the budget they had in that regard.

Same. The amount and quality of work they managed to achieve was really impressing, at the point it may worsen the frustration of a wasted opportunity.

I mean the opportunity to concentrate forces rather expanding the features and general scale, although the question is probably more complex than finding the right slider position while so much external factors comes into play - the staff's skill to begin with. It's easy to make a second city and tons of capsule toys if your only skill is excelling at creating 3D models in Unreal Engine 4. The real skill is to program the originality.

That said, I'm not sure cutting the voice acting would have been a safer decision. To me, the value of dialogues in Shenmue has always been the form rather than the content. Shenmue is not Bioware. That's why I could not appreciate Shenmue Project Xmas the community's fangame as much as other people did. A such decision would have required a lot of courage to take, like probably many other features too. Nobody is saying Yu's task was easy.

 

[SMDzero]

There's a 2.2 trillion US stimulus package because of the coronavirus.

Now.... 2.2 trillion is a lot of money.... if 70 million of that could be somehow diverted to Ys Net they could use it to make an epic full-on Shenmue 4 experience.

No one at all would notice a measly 70 million missing from 2.2 trillion...that's just 0.003% of it!

 

[Yokosuka]

With regards to the story being light though, I'll be honest it has me really worried. I can understand things being cut but it really does seem that Shenmue's story in general is lighter than I expected.

Ton of constraints have prevented Suzuki from making the great Shenmue 3 we initially dreamed of. But Shenmue 4 being the very last episode is going the be the most ridiculous constrain he ever has to face. It's difficult to imagine how he's going to win artistically without a radical re-design. They can use S3 assets but the benefit may be counterbalanced by a smaller budget.

So much stuff has yet to be told, basically the Ryo's coherent growth to beat the Four CYM bosses + Tentei while delivering clues for the parallel intrigues (mirror, treasure, shenhua). It's potentially more packed than Shenmue 2 (!). What can he do? Quicken the pace? Use time leaps?

Announcing Shenmue 4 would be a first and immense victory but it's not going to stop my anxiety as I fear the lose-lose situation.

 

[murdiaries]

The moment S4 will be announced I will jump to the moon.
Yeah S3 wasn't perfect but it kept me playing for dozen of hours like no other game! Oh and don't worry they know S3 production issues and feedback, I'm sure S4 will improve regardless of budget.

 

[hmjohnny]

Ton of constraints have prevented Suzuki from making the great Shenmue 3 we initially dreamed of. But Shenmue 4 being the very last episode is going the be the most ridiculous constrain he ever has to face. It's difficult to imagine how he's going to win artistically without a radical re-design. They can use S3 assets but the benefit may be counterbalanced by a smaller budget.

So much stuff has yet to be told, basically the Ryo's coherent growth to beat the Four CYM bosses + Tentei while delivering clues for the parallel intrigues (mirror, treasure, shenhua). It's potentially more packed than Shenmue 2 (!). What can he do? Quicken the pace? Use time leaps?

Announcing Shenmue 4 would be a first and immense victory but it's not going to stop my anxiety as I fear the lose-lose situation.

This sums up my fears pretty well.

 

[iknifaugood]

It's unclear if it coincided with Deep Silver's partnership, but Suzuki mentioned that the initial plan was for Bailu to be a smaller, "closed world," to contrast a more open world in Niaowu. They started adding various ideas to Bailu, and it expanded to be basically the opposite. The downstream effect caused Niaowu to expand in kind. I don't imagine that happens without an influx of cash, personally. Reference is the 2019 interview at TGS:

If what you're suggesting is that YS got an influx of cash halfway through development and used it to put a bunch of mini games and side activities in Bailu Village and Niaowu at the expense of Baisha (and presumably more story content) then I would assume that you would agree with me that that was the wrong call.

Fully voiced NPCs are a huge part of the games. That's probably the last thing that would get cut from these projects.

No they're not (talking to NPCs is important, yes, VO is a luxury) and it's likely the first thing that would get cut. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to record and implement 2 dubs of full VO for every NPC in the game, most of which is just variations of "I can't help you, ask someone else" (and look at the results when you try to do it on the cheap)?

It's the same kind of thing that leads the interviewers in the video above to ask if there would be forced encounters from bumping into thugs while walking around town, and having them both let out a sigh of relief when he says, "no."

I don't know what this means. Every fight during the main quest of every Shenmue game is "forced".

I mean, it's clear that you don't care about any of the gameplay aspects of the Shenmue series, but you're also trying to play gatekeeper by demanding that the plot take center stage; Anyone who cares about anything else be damned, you call the shots here, am I right?

@hmjohnny responded to this pretty well but I'll add this: I pointed out all the plot points that need to be resolved in order for the story to end earlier in this thread; you tell me what you think 1 more game will look like trying to cram that much story in at S3's languid pace (or even 2 more, for that matter)? I like Shenmue's gameplay just fine as long as it's telling a story; you run around pressing A on things and getting into fights, if that's not to tell a story then what's it for?

Why would anyone care about integrating the story into a living, breathing game world like the first three games, am I right? It's probably just nonsense, since you can't see the value in that at all.

WHAT?! I'm the story guy, remember? What have I said that could possibly make you think that integrating the story into the world like the first 2 games (S3 absolutely does not do this) would be a bad thing? S1 had the Hazuki basement, which perfectly allowed the player to explore bits of the backstory (and is very rewarding to replay after beating S2) and then you get to ask around town about the Phoenix mirror--that's integrating the story into the game world. S2 developed Ren and Ryo's characters entirely by allowing them to go on missions together, and find out things about Yuan and Dou Niu by following them around and investigating their appartment, and, after 2 games of build up, let you meet Shenhua and talk to her about nearly anything and explore her house--that's integrating the story into the game world (no S3 does not get points for repeating the Shenhua stuff). What did S3 bring to that table? Talking to Shenhua every night in Bailu and then dropping it in Niaowu? What story content is in Niaowu that's so integrated into the game world? If you're going to tell me it's due to budget then I'm going to point out all the bloat that should have been cut.

You might want to just spend another 100 posts or so trying to tamp down any expressions of gratitude toward the series in its current state, just to make sure, though.

You're lumping S3 with S1 and 2 and I'm clearly not. I've said before that if S3 axed everything it changed and just had S1 and 2's gameplay systems (no stamina, better combat, normal gambling etc.) and everything else was the same, that alone would make it a considerably better game. However, due to S3's failings, many of which come down to budget and prioritization of resources, and looking at how much content is left, and hearing that Suzuki only wants to do 1 or maybe 2 more games in the series, real questions need to be asked of how he's going to wrap this all up with the budget and time that he has. Remember, we haven't even been introduced to Ziming yet.

 

[Suzaku]

Suzuki came up with the concept of the story first and hired writers from different disciplines to flesh it out. This was done before almost anything else. There's no denying Suzuki likes his simulations and wanted to incorporate that into the game. However, that doesn't seem to be the case with S3.
Here's the relevant part:

From the same source:

"Suzuki researched RPGs and began building a prototype game on the Sega Saturn called The Old Man and the Peach Tree. Suzuki and his team tested camera and character controls, a conversation system and combat for the console using this prototype. In the prototype, players approach an old man asking if he knows a Kung Fu grandmaster named Ryu. The old man responds that he wants to eat a peach and will tell the player — a controlled character named Taro — where Ryu is if he brings him a peach. At the end of the game prototype, Taro witnesses the old man skip stones across the water that kill a fish each time they hit the surface. This leads him to believe the old man is grandmaster Ryu. "

In 1996, using the above described prototype as the basis, Suzuki and Sega began building a full 3D RPG. The team wanted to create a full size RPG in full 3D with recorded voice acting, a cinematic approach to scenes to increase the level of player emotional involvement, and support combat with multiple characters at once. The game would use the combat animations and engine utilized by competitive fighting series Virtua Fighter. The hero would be Akira, one of the characters from Virtua Fighter. But after traveling to China to research the game's settings and martial arts combat system, Suzuki decided to dramatically change the story.

As you see, the game concept was already there since the beginning, story came later to serve THIS concept and goal.

That's why he called writers, but AFTER creating the foundation of Shenmue, not the contrary.
Even for games like Sonic the Hedgehog, game concept was created before the character, it's a standard practice.

Very few developers create story first and game later.

Shenmue isn't a unique experience because of its gameplay alone. It was when it came out but that was because of the technical advancements it had. I would also argue that Shenmue isn't really an open world game (not in the modern sense of the term) so that genre doesn't really apply. Also, you misread me I wasn't meaning there were other games doing the same thing better, but better games that focus on their gameplay.

You are basically implying that Shenmue was just a story with good graphics for the time...

I have no idea what makes Shenmue "Shenmue" according to you. Shenmue is a finite story. There will be a finite number of games one way or another. So you're statement that it makes sense to continue the series and not care about the story makes no sense. by definition Shenmue can't go on forever no matter the budget.

??? a very abstract interpreptation of my post.

Shenmue is an action RPG, it's not genre defying. FREE isn't a genre it's a marketing term. I defy you to describe to me what FREE means in any meaningful way.

Action rpg are very different, especially at the time were genres were less mixed, action rpg were the like of Tales of Phantasia just to make it more clear.
Free is the origin of the open world genre (and if we want to be precise, OW is not even a genre but a way to make games), it's not something abstract or just marketing.

Yes it is changing the essence of the series because without it the series cannot continue. We don't live in the timeline where Shenmue was a smash hit on the DC and AM2 is still at the helm. In our universe Shenmue is derided and mocked for being clumsy and awkward with a diminishing fanbase and even greater diminishing budget and no certainty of its future. What we are discussing is the REALISTIC future of this series, not the IDEAL one.

You guys are complaining about Shenmue 3 because you don't want to understand and accept that we don't live in a timeline where we could have the Shenmue 3 on Dreamcast 2 like it was supposed to be, so a compromise has to be made with kickstarter etc.

Now you guys magically understand this and are ready to destroy the essence of the series and to accept even BIGGER compromises for future games, just for the sake of the story?

It's a nonsense, and this confused line of thinking will results only in a real disaster for this series.

Then Shenmue sucks, nothing more nothing less.

I can't say nothing here, it's your opinion
But I'm guessing this would be the general sentiment if Shenmue was reduced to just the story.

I strongly agree with you here but I think you have story confused solely with plot. All of those aspects, the "life sim" stuff, environments, etc. especially when done well was there to strengthen immersion and world build. All of that is in service to the story.

story was one of the many tools to immerse the player in the world.
It's the whole package that made Shenmue unique and the reason why we are still here after 20 years.

 

[Sh3ppy]

I don't know what this means. Every fight during the main quest of every Shenmue game is "forced".

I recently played the offshoot from Yakuza, Judgement, and what I think he's referring to is that in that game you are constantly coming up against thugs or gang members who start fights with you on the streets. Constantly. It's ok at first and then it gets very repetitive, so I believe this is what we're talking about here. (Judgement is great by the way- great story- but this is one of the criticisms I have of it).