"Striking while the iron is hot" | If we want Shenmue IV, we have to act now, not 4 years down the road
- Thread starter Rikitatsu
- Start date
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- Oct 6, 2018
@Dehone
you keep using that word but I’m pretty certain you don’t know what it means.
nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I personally have bought multiple copies because, contrary to what another poster said, every bit does help. If we had previously followed this kind of advice and sat back and did nothing, Shenmue 3 probably wouldn’t have happened.
you keep using that word but I’m pretty certain you don’t know what it means.
nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I personally have bought multiple copies because, contrary to what another poster said, every bit does help. If we had previously followed this kind of advice and sat back and did nothing, Shenmue 3 probably wouldn’t have happened.
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- Nov 27, 2019
I know what it means. Plenty of people feel entitled everyday and are told "fuck you, I'm not doing that". Would it clear things up if I said "a sense/feeling of entitlement"? But now we're just looking too deep into definitions, even though one of the definitions of entitlement fits the way I'm using it. Im talking about people being told it's our responsibility to purchase multiple copies of the same product because it might not sell enough to get a new game. Since when were we accountable for all of the extra effort. Especially when there were no shortage of people on here saying newer fans will love the game and not to worry about sales because it will be a success
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2018
Were there? I can’t say I remember any large group of posters claiming newer fans would love the game and that sales wouldn’t be an issue. Granted I took some time off the boards for a while but I would love to see this “no shortage of people on here saying newer fans will love the game and not to worry about sales because it will be a success”.
It seems very unlikely to me but I am open to being proved wrong. Go for it.
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- Favourite title
- Shenmue IIx
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- Ghost of Tsushima
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- mjqjazzbar
I was one of the people who thought it was possible it could do well since people play and buy the weirdest games nowadays. I see so many stories about some game I’ve never heard of selling a million units. People love those bizarre barely-games by Quantic Dreams for some reason. Life is Strange is popular. Kingdom Come somehow sold a ton with little fanfare ahead of it. Didn’t seem completely implausible that a new game in a series with a long history and reputation might do well.
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- Aug 18, 2018
Which even then is still completely different from saying "not to worry about sales because it will be a success". And for the record I agree with the sentiment you had. I felt like whether it took off or not in sales was essentially a coin flip, but it had a lot to love for new fans if luck was on our side.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2019
Youll find alot of it scattered throughout here, gets more pessimistic as it goes on though.
SHENMUE III SALES ~PROJECTION POLL THREAD~
Hi. There is a thread regarding this topic already in the forum I know that. But the idea of making a poll and watch the results of all the members of the forum voting is quite interesting. Some are optimistic, others not so much. It will be interesting to see the percentages of the various...
www.shenmuedojo.com
some of this shit is depressing in retrospect, like how we seemed so confident that review copies would get sent out at a reasonably time, of that the game would get any kind of marketing push in its final weeks.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2018
Youll find alot of it scattered throughout here, gets more pessimistic as it goes on though.
SHENMUE III SALES ~PROJECTION POLL THREAD~
Hi. There is a thread regarding this topic already in the forum I know that. But the idea of making a poll and watch the results of all the members of the forum voting is quite interesting. Some are optimistic, others not so much. It will be interesting to see the percentages of the various...
some of this shit is depressing in retrospect, like how we seemed so confident that review copies would get sent out at a reasonably time, of that the game would get any kind of marketing push in its final weeks.
Yeah, to be fair nobody really knew the effects the constraints of such a limited budget was going to have on the whole process of releasing the game at the time. But just as some people may have been unrealistically optimistic back then, now we’re seeing the exact opposite just after 2 weeks since the game’s been released. It’s too easy to sway far too much to either side.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2019
- Location
- Denmark
- Favourite title
- Shenmue
- Currently playing
- Shenmue 3, DJMAX Respect, Nier Automata, Valkyria Chronicles
Before I launch into this, let me state my general hypothesis here for those who don’t like to read. Shenmue as a series is suffering because it does not match the public perception of what the series “should” be. It has been marketed in an extremely poor way, which it looks like it falls short of its goals. For something to succeed and be seen as high-quality among the general public, it must appear to achieve what it sets out to do. Shenmue can no longer be sold on the basis of technical prowess and groundbreaking production quality, as it will obviously fall short of that. The marketing team, and we as a community, must identify and shape a new narrative that can be associated with the series. One in which is succeeds in what it set out to do
Okay:
Not only do I believe Shenmue 4 will happen regardless of how badly this game may or may not perform, I believe it is possible for the series to become the critical and commercial success it deserves to be. Let me explain my thoughts on why the game failed and what we can do to turn things around.
Public perception is a fickle thing, and I genuinely believe it has little relation to the actual quality of the product. Look at how the Yakuza series took off over the past year and a half, or how everyone’s favorite director is suddenly Yoko Taro after Automata came out. These games were not only able to change the present and future reception of their respective series, but how the previous titles are viewed. Yakuza went from being seen as a, “weeby GTA ripoff with less freedom in gameplay and forced random battles,” to a, “melodramatic exploration of the Japanese underworld with over the top action and absurd side quests/mini games.” Drakengard/Nier went from, “interesting stories hampered by terrible game design and awful graphics,” to, “a genius storyline with eclectic game design created by one of the industry’s true auteurs.” The games themselves never changed, but something allowed for a new narrative to take shape among the general public. On the flip side of this, Sonic’s perception suffered so badly during the mid-00s that, “Sonic was never good,” became a common cry of its critics (an absolutely ridiculous assertion).
For Shenmue to receive a proper continuation, it is necessary for the narrative surrounding the games to change. It may sound ridiculous, but there needs to be what is effectively a grassroots campaign from the community to market these games ourselves to the general public. I honestly believe that the mindset someone goes into these games with has a profound effect on how much they will enjoy them. I never completed Shenmue 1 and 2 until this time last year, but I still loved them to death. That is because I understood what they were from years of exposure to the general SEGA fanbase and what fans appreciated about the series. I wasn’t told, “Oh it’s basically Yakuza but worse.”
It is not too late for Shenmue to become a critical/commercial success, it is just necessary that we effectively change the perception of the series into something that it can actually live up to. Shenmue 1 sold 1.2 million copies by being seen as the most realistic, technically advanced, and expensive game of its time. This idea of high production values persisted and was the only thing the general public who never played the games knew about Shenmue. To them, Shenmue was a series that needed a huge budget, incredible graphical fidelity, and groundbreaking realism. It could not be successful on a smaller scale.
Since the beginning of the Shenmue 3 Kickstarter, it faced accusations of being a dead franchise revived in a greedy cash grab where Sony was secretly funding the project. From there, the early preview footage that showed dead-eyed models with no facial animation clashed with what people associated with the series. While the trolls took pleasure in shitting on it and the fans were understanding of the budgetary limitations and the fact that it was a work in progress, I imagine those unfamiliar with the series were confused at how the series that was said to be so technically advanced and graphically beautiful could turn out looking as it did. This led to the whole, “Kickstarter disaster” angle that the media and observers like to push. Then the EGS fiasco happened, amplifying the calls that the whole thing was just a scam.
We need to identify the best way to “sell” the public on the series. People enjoy being contrarian, standing out from the crowd, and feeling like their taste is refined and superior, so maybe the hipster angle of Suzuki as a “misunderstood auteur” a-la Yoko Taro could work. Spread the notion that Shenmue’s gameplay is not dated, but something so fundamentally different than current trends that critics and general audiences couldn’t possibly get it (which is effectively the truth). Or maybe focus on the life-sim angle and get fans of slower paced games into it.
The key factor is determining what Shenmue is successful, or can be seen as successful, at accomplishing. When people feel a game has achieved what it sets out to do, they will be more forgiving of certain shortcomings.
Thank you for coming to my ShenTalk.
Okay:
Not only do I believe Shenmue 4 will happen regardless of how badly this game may or may not perform, I believe it is possible for the series to become the critical and commercial success it deserves to be. Let me explain my thoughts on why the game failed and what we can do to turn things around.
Public perception is a fickle thing, and I genuinely believe it has little relation to the actual quality of the product. Look at how the Yakuza series took off over the past year and a half, or how everyone’s favorite director is suddenly Yoko Taro after Automata came out. These games were not only able to change the present and future reception of their respective series, but how the previous titles are viewed. Yakuza went from being seen as a, “weeby GTA ripoff with less freedom in gameplay and forced random battles,” to a, “melodramatic exploration of the Japanese underworld with over the top action and absurd side quests/mini games.” Drakengard/Nier went from, “interesting stories hampered by terrible game design and awful graphics,” to, “a genius storyline with eclectic game design created by one of the industry’s true auteurs.” The games themselves never changed, but something allowed for a new narrative to take shape among the general public. On the flip side of this, Sonic’s perception suffered so badly during the mid-00s that, “Sonic was never good,” became a common cry of its critics (an absolutely ridiculous assertion).
For Shenmue to receive a proper continuation, it is necessary for the narrative surrounding the games to change. It may sound ridiculous, but there needs to be what is effectively a grassroots campaign from the community to market these games ourselves to the general public. I honestly believe that the mindset someone goes into these games with has a profound effect on how much they will enjoy them. I never completed Shenmue 1 and 2 until this time last year, but I still loved them to death. That is because I understood what they were from years of exposure to the general SEGA fanbase and what fans appreciated about the series. I wasn’t told, “Oh it’s basically Yakuza but worse.”
It is not too late for Shenmue to become a critical/commercial success, it is just necessary that we effectively change the perception of the series into something that it can actually live up to. Shenmue 1 sold 1.2 million copies by being seen as the most realistic, technically advanced, and expensive game of its time. This idea of high production values persisted and was the only thing the general public who never played the games knew about Shenmue. To them, Shenmue was a series that needed a huge budget, incredible graphical fidelity, and groundbreaking realism. It could not be successful on a smaller scale.
Since the beginning of the Shenmue 3 Kickstarter, it faced accusations of being a dead franchise revived in a greedy cash grab where Sony was secretly funding the project. From there, the early preview footage that showed dead-eyed models with no facial animation clashed with what people associated with the series. While the trolls took pleasure in shitting on it and the fans were understanding of the budgetary limitations and the fact that it was a work in progress, I imagine those unfamiliar with the series were confused at how the series that was said to be so technically advanced and graphically beautiful could turn out looking as it did. This led to the whole, “Kickstarter disaster” angle that the media and observers like to push. Then the EGS fiasco happened, amplifying the calls that the whole thing was just a scam.
We need to identify the best way to “sell” the public on the series. People enjoy being contrarian, standing out from the crowd, and feeling like their taste is refined and superior, so maybe the hipster angle of Suzuki as a “misunderstood auteur” a-la Yoko Taro could work. Spread the notion that Shenmue’s gameplay is not dated, but something so fundamentally different than current trends that critics and general audiences couldn’t possibly get it (which is effectively the truth). Or maybe focus on the life-sim angle and get fans of slower paced games into it.
The key factor is determining what Shenmue is successful, or can be seen as successful, at accomplishing. When people feel a game has achieved what it sets out to do, they will be more forgiving of certain shortcomings.
Thank you for coming to my ShenTalk.
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- Joined
- Aug 22, 2018
Hmm, why? I bought it on fangamer, and got the key, but I bought Ancestors directly on Epic. You couldn't do it? There's a CD keys site too selling them.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2019
Just wanted to highlight how you said the games never changed; particularly in reference to Nier Automata.
That couldnt be any further from the truth.
One of the reasons Nier Automata got such public attention aside from the niche following of its previous games, was S-E and Yoko Taro's decision not to use Access Games again (Drakengard 3), and instead to hire Platinum Games, who are renowned for their experience in action games. The gameplay and quality of the presentation got a huge boost up from them using Platinum. This also then made people not familiar with the series, to take notice.
Yakuza's sudden positive attention from the mainstream, which happened when Yakuza Zero came out, was due to the improved marketing from Sega through help with Sony. Prior to its release, Sony had helped bring Yakuza 5 finally over through Sony's Adam Boyes and Gio Corsi's "Building the List" import localization campaign through their developer relations efforts. Yakuza 5 though went kinda unnoticed to the mainstream public due to it being released digitally only for PS3, two years after the PS4 launched, but it was to get the ball rolling for Yakuza Zero to come over. I'd argue if Yakuza Ishin had been localized for 2014, it too would have received positive praise as that was a dry spell year for Sony's PS4 library but Sega was still in retard mode so it didnt happen.
You also got several YouTube celebrity game vloggers reviewing Yakuza Zero positively who previously had not played the series before (like Angry Joe), which then also sparked the public's interest more in addition to Sony's marketing boost.
The acquisition of Atlus was also a big part of its push because the Atlus localization team had now taken over duties for localizing Yakuza games. The person responsible at Sega U.S. for previously pushing for Yakuza titles to come over left in 2012, hence Yakuza 5 taking so long to come over, and the western marketing for Yakuza back then from 2005 to 2012 was terrible.
It was all a combined case of things being all aligned at the right time. So yeah, its possible the same thing could occur for Shenmue, but the stars would really need to be aligned properly and in terms of the games quality, that would have to be boosted as well; perhaps by Sega finally helping, or Ys Net fully understanding and mastering the UE4, which should be less resource expensive on the next gen consoles. But again there's also the financing and properly mapping out a development schedule and sticking to it.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2018
I think the same way. Plus to what you said, this gen he can use what he has. Developing it right now damn it. He could do the actual game in a year or so, and a few months for voice over. If he waits, their stupid useless PS5 comes out. It might mean he'd need to do what he had to do with Saturn Shenmue. Did you efing see he had to end of Shenmue 2 already done on Saturn!?! If he could do it there, he'd do the 3rd on DC, not reworking it all. I hope the DLCs are good, I've a season pass.
I'm sorry, I don't want him to reinvent the bike. He can concentrate on fighting and the story, reuse the mini games. With him now comfortable using UE4, I think he can do wonders in a much shorter time. He needs good partners from exclusive deals. And to start kickstarter, explaining that all will go into the bigger, better game. He has a base of super hard core fans. Much bigger than the Steam heads, or graphics whores/SEGA fanboys who bought 1&2 back in the day for those reasons. I'm pulling for him. Shenmue 3 was a fun game. I want the 4th to happen, and I'd not mind much of the 3rd to be reused 1 little bit.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2019
The good thing is PS5's power should solve all the loading issues this game has with UE4. Thats one of the main things Sony is promoting about the PS5.
The console is supposed to be backwards compatible, so Im interested to see how this game alone should run on it.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2018
Playing 1&2 on SSD on PC is nuts, I barely catch the loading screen. If PS5 uses a good SSD, I can see it happening. PS2 made civ 2 I was bonkers about, run twice faster. It made a huge difference playing that, in the later turns. As far as Shenmue 4, I just fear the demands he'd have put on him as far as how it must look. Improving existing he could do so much more. We'll see what happens. I just don't want him spending much time on 1 version of Shenmue 4, then remaking it. He should make it for the highest end PC now, and then see what PS5 uses, and can handle. I know it's a console game, and you all play on consoles. He's not hamstrung with that anymore though. Lets hope for the best.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2019
- Location
- Denmark
- Favourite title
- Shenmue
- Currently playing
- Shenmue 3, DJMAX Respect, Nier Automata, Valkyria Chronicles
I am not wrong, you misunderstood what I meant. Apologies for not wording it clearly. The comment on the games never changing was referencing my previous statement that the improvement (especially in marketing) of the newer games were able to change the perception of the older ones. Two sentences or so before I said, “[T]he games never changed,” I said that it affected how the public view the past games. That why I specifically use Drakkengard and Nier 1 as an example, saying that they went from being seen as, “blah blah,” to “blah blah,” among the public.
I’m saying the previous games never changed. The success of Nier Automata and Yakuza 0 improved how the general public viewed the previous games in the series. Drakkengard/Nier got pretty trash reviews outside of Japan. Yakuza always got pretty mediocre ones. The positive reception of newer games boosted their perception of the entire series. Shenmue (and Sonic, as I stated) got the reverse of that, where a decline in positivity towards the current games negatively impacted how people saw the previous ones.
Your comment about Yakuza is exactly what I am talking about: marketing. Marketing is ultimately more important than the product and Deep Silver failed where Sega and Sony succeeded with Yakuza.
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- Nov 24, 2019
I dont know if I'd go so far to say Nier Automata improved the general publics perception of the older games. Especially when the older games were not made available to repurchase for the mainstream community this gen. They would have had to seek them out on the PS3 and PS2 which isn't something I see the general public bothering to do.
In regards to Yakuza, well two of the older games got remade this gen (Yakuza 1 & 2) into Kiwami and Kiwami 2, so their perception was improved. Then you had Yakuza 3 recently remastered as well as 4 and 5. Yakuza 6 also came out in 2016. So basically everyone one this gen has access to the entire mainline series.
With the only outliers not being available to the West being: Kenzan!, a historical spinoff from PS3 era, Ishin, another historical spinoff and cross gen title, Black Panther 1 & 2, two PSP only titles which were outsourced to SynSophia, and finally Dead Souls, the what-if horror shooter game which most people choose to forget about.
But certainly, Shenmue had a much steeper uphill battle to climb than Yakuza, and with much less support to climb said hill, along with a huge reputation to uphold considering the series was dormant for nearly 20 years.
The most Yakuza was dormant for was 3 years and that was only due to Sega losing its main person they had in the West marketing it; during that time, Nagoshi wasn't too focused on trying to get Yakuza to be globally known. He was more focused on it continuing to do well in Japan as he previously held the notion that it is probably a series more understood culturally by the Japanese. Sony's involvement helped him change his outlook on that (though him and his team still hold reserves for localizing period pieces like Ishin, because they feel 'the West wouldnt appreciate Samurai games'. which doesnt make sense to me considering we in the West get Samurai Shodown, Samurai Warriors, and Sony themselves are working on a big Samurai game: Ghost of Tsushima)
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- Nov 24, 2019
Most main games are optimized for consoles due to the devkits and then ported to PC. Not the other way around. This is why often PC ports arent optimized correctly even though theoretically you can build the most powerful monster rig you want provided your wallet runs that deep. So that is the only reason I mention consoles, particularly next gen. Most devs already have the PS5 devkits, so they already know the potential the system has and I've seen some praising its performance capabilities. I also saw a render leak of what looks to be some kinda rumor of Terabyte cartridge add ons. Not sure how real that is but it might have some interesting properties if turns out to be true.
For instance, with Yakuza, they have their own proprietary Dragon Engine for Yakuza 6, Judgement, Yakuza Kiwami 2 and Yakuza 7, but for current console, that is hindered to run at 30fps unlike Yakuza Zero, Yakuza Ishin and Kiwami 1 which run at 60fps on the PS4 (but 30fps on the PS3).
The only concern I have would be if Epic turns around and puts out an UE5. Then everyone would have to learn that new engine which would take additional time and resources
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2019
Yeah, when watching the giant bomb quicklook there was a question asking what is it about the Shenmue series that the fans loved, and the response was basically "It's like a bad Tommy Wiseau film with minigames. But I think if you want a slice of life game, just play Yakuza."
I think a lot of the perception on the Shenmue series is that the minigames, drawer interactions, and poor English dub are the main draw. A lot of those people didn't play through Shenmue 2 with the Japanese VO and didn't get to experience the story or all the great characters, so they think the reason we wanted Shenmue 3 is to open more drawers and get goofy VO.
The "elevator pitch" I tell my friends is this is an adventure game where the player exists in an immersive environment on a time schedule, with story beats where you fight using a modified virtua fighter engine (though the latter's not true for S3, but you get the gist). If that turns into a discussion, I would then tell them how much I enjoy the story and characters, how cool is it that NPCs lived on a schedule in a game made in 1999, and how it's a game that requires you to explore and poke around, you won't be getting objective markers or endorphin overload every 5 minutes.
I agree to a point. Shenmue 3 got the rare chance of getting a second opportunity to make a first impression, if you will. While this is an unfair expectation, if Shenmue 3 hit it out of the park and hit a mid 80's metacritic while staying true to the series roots and providing a great story I think it would have hooked a decent chunk of a new audience. I'm still happy with Shenmue 3 given the circumstances but understand it's faults, and I am a bit frustrated that they went with (what seems like) an intentionally poor English Dub. That sets the tone for the entire presentation of the game and makes it much easier to mock. Maybe a well received Shenmue 4 can draw in new players and hook them on the story for Shenmue 5. If 4 is that much better, maybe encourage new players to skip 3 entirely since they can probably catch up on the story of 3 pretty easily.
I think it's a bit lazy and frustrating when people say that a new audience can't get into Shenmue, that it's only for existing fans. We have so much more variety in games today, and more cases of slower moving games being popular. I think a lot of the Quantic Dream, Life is Strange, and slower Indie Game fans (Gone Home, Everyone's Gone to the Rapture, Edith Finch, etc) among many others are players who might be able to appreciate Shenmue. I understand the argument that it's tough to jump into the fourth installment of a series, but if something is good I don't think it matters too much. MGS 4 sold much better than MGS3 (I think 3 is better personally, but MGS 4 had so much momentum going for it)
Yeah, I think people who like open world games but hate the whole "laundry list" of mission objectives in modern games are a good target audience. Adventure game fans as well. I definitely think the attention to detail in the environments and NPCs are the most unique element of Shenmue. I just feel like I'm one level "closer" to everything, if that makes sense.