The tone of Shenmue III compared to the other games

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Jul 28, 2018
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Did anyone else feel it was a bit too much on the goofy side? Shenmue had quite a serious tone and it seemed like Goro was put in as a bit of comedy relief and the other cheesier moments were more a result of the cheesy 90's. Shenmue II had it's moments with Yuan, the big guy with the mohawk but overall most of the characters seemed very down to earth. With Shenmue III, there just seemed to be too many moments (for me) where the off-tone was constantly in your face.

  • Cartoonist design of a lot of the characters.
  • The poor writing with some of the minor characters; like that women constantly trying to flirt with you or people dismissing you because you don't like fishing
  • The terrible voice acting, but in particular with the phone calls. Every just seems overly happy and has the same voice

I want this topic to be a discussion around the over tone of Shenmue III and not necessarily around my opinions above.
 
Based on what I saw on Mobygames, only one of the writers worked on the first two games. The lead writer didn’t even appear to have any credits for any other games though I’m sure it might be hard to track Japan-only games on MobyGames. I assume they had people who weren’t even that familiar with the series working on the story/dialogue.

One of the lead artists appears to have only one other credit - DQ XI. If you’re familiar with DQ it kind of explains why some of the NPCs appear the way they do. The other lead worked on the first two games, which I think seems evident in at least some situations.

Overall, seems they hired a big mix of people and didn’t really spend time trying to make these disparate pieces come together. Yu Suzuki even said one artist likes to make cartoony characters and one likes to make realistic characters and he just let both do their own thing.
 
Shenmue has always had quirky characters that were often larger than life in original games. I’m sure someone in this thread will highlight the many clear examples.

I think you are conflating two separate issues of tone and design choices. With that said I thought they often got the tone wrong in Shenmue 3 particularly regarding the ending sequence. Seeing Shiling and Mr. Hsu comically dispatch enemy after enemy in Old Castle was extremely distracting and clashed with the serious nature of the events occurring.
 
I thought the humour is one of the great pros of Shenmue 3. So many funny moments, as much as Shenmue 2. You could feel Yu is too old to take his story too seriously.

But I agree the game felt sometimes borderline and away from the mood we're used before. The rich couple at the hotel made me laugh but seems a bit out of place.

The end of the game was especially revealing about the mentality YSnet tried to convey.

In the Old Castle, they definitely went too far with it:
- The fat martial artist throwing a procession of stupid villains to the river. The scene was not that funny and lasted soooo long.

- Chai's room. Will we ever witness his character development someday? The mystery of his appearance, his motivations? He had still room for in-depth writing but seems it's defo a random Team Rocket character to fill up the plot.

- The Jeet Kune Do artist that Ren humiliated. Not so funny neither. The worst scene of Shenmue 3 to me because everything else in that room was perfect in terms of writing and filming.
Were they aware that only Bruce Lee can make this shout without being cringe? Yes, I think they were.

They didn't fail everyting though:
- The line when Ryo said Ren "oh you..." (mistranslated by Corey in English Dub) after he kicked the long-hair guy was relevant humour a la Indiana Jones so I will not complain.
- Pizza: good and it was only a side quest so no problem.

Could it be some trick to fit the humility of the project? Again, I loved the sense of humour of Shenmue 3 but their hard-trying worries me a bit for the dramatic moments of Shenmue 4.
 
Too much humor.
But being honest, the humor is one of the best parts of the game because the serious bits are so lackluster (except the Lan Di confrontation)
 
I gotta say the bigger issue to me is how the people in Bailu Village behave. I mean half the women are weirdos who hit on Ryo even though they look like they are at least 15 years older than him. I get it that some of them lost their husbands due to them not coming back from their jobs in the city but the misbehaviour of ones husband doesn`t need to result in misbehaviour of the
corresponding wife.
 
One of the lead artists appears to have only one other credit - DQ XI. If you’re familiar with DQ it kind of explains why some of the NPCs appear the way they do.

That would be an interesting read. Do you have a link?

I'd second this. Really enjoying the JP dub on my second play now.
I think I may do this if I replay the game again. I was excited about doing the calls but did not bother go through all of them as the voices, and characters themselves, were so far off being decent let alone near the original voice actors.
 
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artists

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/shenmue-iii-staff-credits.2236/page-2#post-82064 writers

I tried to just post the lead roles with multiple credits. There are a few in there.

The person in charge of environments has the most impressive credits of anyone on the team—aside from Yu—which isn’t that surprising. They were lead on a couple Xenoblade games and also worked on Breath of the Wild.
 
artists

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/shenmue-iii-staff-credits.2236/page-2#post-82064 writers

I tried to just post the lead roles with multiple credits. There are a few in there.

The person in charge of environments has the most impressive credits of anyone on the team—aside from Yu—which isn’t that surprising. They were lead on a couple Xenoblade games and also worked on Breath of the Wild.
Do you have the link to the article explaining the character designs?
 
He gave an interview at a conference called Develop Blue where he said he basically just let the artists work to their strengths and he mentioned one has a realistic style and the other had a more Disney-fied style. I’m just assuming based on credits that the guy who worked on DQ is the cartoony one and the one who worked on Shenmue previously is the realistic once. I actually get a bit of a DQ vibe at times from this game.

 
In my opinion the Japanese voice acting is excellent. Just try it with English subtitles.


Its certainly not bad. Japanese are a master of their voice acting craft essentially they do take it somewhat more seriously over there. There's less of a 'mannered' way of speaking unless they are intentionally going for a hokey stereotyped performance like say "genki girl" or whatever. I know Miyazaki and Gundam's creator Tomino specifically hate that and they prefer more natural way of speaking; quite often they'd get an actress or actor who has been trained or groomed to speak in that overly flowery way of speaking and they purposely tell them not to do that for their roles and its hard sometimes for said actors to dial that back to be more natural because theyre so used to it. (for a Western equivalent of 'mannered' speaking; just look at the actor in the tv show the Flash that plays all the Harrison Wells characters; he always talks in this overly dramatic whispy voice lol. No one talks like that on the rest of the show but him. OR, go back to 30's through 50's acting with its "hey sonny boy!" manner of speaking. Though sometimes the Japanese do this too to this day; I call it 'theatrical acting'. As in, back in the day, in theater, you had to project your voice louder on purpose so the people in the back seats could hear you since no microphones were invented yet. Acting became more naturalized once cameras and close quarter mics were used.

In Shenmue, the dialogue, particularly the Japanese dialogue (ignore the subtitles; those are specifically done for the English voice acting so they do not match). is generally....flat. There's not much to it really. Characters repeat the same lines over and over. There's a lack of personality and charisma in this stoic way of speaking. The vocabulary used is very minimal.
When Cory Marshall says "I see" all the time in Shenmue games, thats because he is literally translating what the Japanese script always called for in saying. "soka'. etc

Thats why people who dont understand why that is, make fun of the dialogue in Shenmue. But that is how often Japanese speak. They dont mix around a lot of words. Everything is matter of fact. For the most part. There's a very limited range of vocabulary used. There are exceptions like Yakuza series where they go further in depth with actual dialects and accents "Kansai accent" for example and they even talk about it in the game "oh I see you have a Kansai accent. you must be from so and so" etc.

So this is something to take into consideration when you say you like the Japanese version more. Sure thats fine. But understand a lot of it just stems from the fact its more direct and straight forward with less variation of words being used and doesnt try to be colorful with the script to envoke more character personality. Because Yu Suzuki wanted the characters to be more straight forward and stoic like that especially Ryo. But with the Eng VA, he realize the importance of not doing 100% literal translation because of varying cultural differences.
 
Its certainly not bad. Japanese are a master of their voice acting craft essentially they do take it somewhat more seriously over there. There's less of a 'mannered' way of speaking unless they are intentionally going for a hokey stereotyped performance like say "genki girl" or whatever. I know Miyazaki and Gundam's creator Tomino specifically hate that and they prefer more natural way of speaking; quite often they'd get an actress or actor who has been trained or groomed to speak in that overly flowery way of speaking and they purposely tell them not to do that for their roles and its hard sometimes for said actors to dial that back to be more natural because theyre so used to it. (for a Western equivalent of 'mannered' speaking; just look at the actor in the tv show the Flash that plays all the Harrison Wells characters; he always talks in this overly dramatic whispy voice lol. No one talks like that on the rest of the show but him. OR, go back to 30's through 50's acting with its "hey sonny boy!" manner of speaking. Though sometimes the Japanese do this too to this day; I call it 'theatrical acting'. As in, back in the day, in theater, you had to project your voice louder on purpose so the people in the back seats could hear you since no microphones were invented yet. Acting became more naturalized once cameras and close quarter mics were used.

In Shenmue, the dialogue, particularly the Japanese dialogue (ignore the subtitles; those are specifically done for the English voice acting so they do not match). is generally....flat. There's not much to it really. Characters repeat the same lines over and over. There's a lack of personality and charisma in this stoic way of speaking. The vocabulary used is very minimal.
When Cory Marshall says "I see" all the time in Shenmue games, thats because he is literally translating what the Japanese script always called for in saying. "soka'. etc

Thats why people who dont understand why that is, make fun of the dialogue in Shenmue. But that is how often Japanese speak. They dont mix around a lot of words. Everything is matter of fact. For the most part. There's a very limited range of vocabulary used. There are exceptions like Yakuza series where they go further in depth with actual dialects and accents "Kansai accent" for example and they even talk about it in the game "oh I see you have a Kansai accent. you must be from so and so" etc.

So this is something to take into consideration when you say you like the Japanese version more. Sure thats fine. But understand a lot of it just stems from the fact its more direct and straight forward with less variation of words being used and doesnt try to be colorful with the script to envoke more character personality. Because Yu Suzuki wanted the characters to be more straight forward and stoic like that especially Ryo. But with the Eng VA, he realize the importance of not doing 100% literal translation because of varying cultural differences.
someone who doesn’t write literal word for word translations needs to be hired, whether or not there’s a dub. It just doesn’t sound right at times.
 
The Japanese voice acting doesn’t sound like satire or like it came out of Plan 9 from Outerspace. There’s a reason nearly every review picks on the English VA. It’s bad. I trust most reviews wouldn’t have anything negative to say about the Japanese track because even if it’s very dull or direct it doesn’t sound like amateur hour at the county theater.


Of course they won't. Most reviewers don't understand Japanese to understand the nuanced differences and how it doesnt match the subs and probably never bothered to select it anyway. Its much easier to critique something you understand.
 
Honestly, the humor didn't bother me all that badly. Even Ren's one straight kick to the face got a chuckle out of me. Sure, it's out of place that they have no problem beating up Chi You Men body guards yet had trouble beating up the Red Snakes...I get it, but I don't know the humor didn't really bother me. The humor was somewhat refreshing to me. Also, I will admit I liked the scene of broom girl whacking the guys over the head (it just went on too long.)


Eh, humor was the thing that least bothered me in the game.
 
Yes, way too many attempts at humor. It was sparsely used in S1 and when it was, it worked. Goro was understandable, especially when you look at the bigger picture. Relative to other people Ryo has a conflict with, the Goros and the Enokis are just schoolyard bullies, so they could afford to have some comedic element, especially Goro as he later becomes a friend.

S2 had just a little bit more humor, namely Yuans interactions(or her bird), but even Yuan remained a threatening figure, given who she was associated with and what she was willing to do to kill Ryo and ren. Even the little cutesy/ funny moments woth Feng Mei, Cool Z, etc. had it's place.

There were characters with their own little quirks that made them amusing but it didnt change the overall tone of the game.


S3 simply went overboard and it seems Yu Suzuki or whoever lost their ability to balance humor and implement it at the right moments. It's like when Tekken decided to turn Paul and Law into buffoons after T4, or more relevant, it like they took the goofiest character traits of virtua fighter characters and gave them to shenmue characters. There is little reason this far in the story to be dealing with enemies that can come across as lovable oafs. Some of the over the top character models dont help either. The mad Angel's were more intimidating because most of them were silent. They just fought and terrorized people. Even Pedro came off as intimidating with his assless chaps.

The most inexcusable part was the castle siege. Introducing Niao Sun with Ren thirsting over her titties like Jim in American Pie. Then comes the played out moment where all the allies have their own time to shine when it comes to kicking ass in a comedic fashion. The Shrine girl beating everyone's ass with an old broom followed by Mr. Su(or whatever) throwing everyone overboard into the water one by one. Then he proceeds to engage in belly bumps with the Chi You Men after parrying 4 men into unconsciousness. Again, the goofy character model didnt help. Then we finally meet Lan Di face to face after all this time.....but not before Ren disposes one of Lan Di's henchmen with a kick to the face who did his best Bruce Lee impression....in a comedic fashion.


Oh yes, also felt that the rich couple at the hotel was doing WAY too much
 
I would in general say 3 kind of lacks a memorable atmosphere compared to the first 2 games, 1 id say is very melancholy but homely as it slowly closes in on winter more and more to match the melancholy. 2 on the flip side its got this real, stranger in a stranger place, type of tone as you really feel like Ryo is out of his element entirely in a place thats foreign to him.

3, I dont know it felt like tonally Bailu and Niaowu were the same tonally and generally a bit too cheery for their own good, everyone accepts ryo pretty much immedietly and that was a big waste of potential to really have a isolated outsider tone to it where you feel alone in this town where everyone knows each other but you. Niaowu in contrast just didnt have much personality at all and by extension no atmosphere, it didnt even feel like a city cause of how empty it was.


As for the humor, nah that part I actually liked alot. It never felt too in your face or ruin anything, even the one hit kick at the end from ren was genuinely really funny and the tone at the end was already pretty adventurous.
 
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