Thoughts On Shenmue 3 Antagonists?

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of this word--. I also don't see anywhere where you've actually rebutted my points, and I have to question whether or not you actually read or understood my post.

I guess I'll step through this with you this time, but if you don't have actual rebuttals to my points in the future, I'm not going to bother.


More screen time, probably. More importance? Doubtful. Not considerably more, at least.


When? In what ways?


You can clearly see that Shilin has a thing for Ryo. It's given context by her high moral standards, and a belief that Ryo is a representation of those moral standards, as well. The first game does not give any context for why Nozomi is so infatuated with Ryo, and it seems insincere at best, shallow at worst, as a result. If you dig into supplemental materials, you can find out that Ryo would stand up for her when she was bullied for not acting as Japanese as everyone else when she moved back for junior high. The game itself doesn't provide this context.



This is why I say it seems like you didn't read my post. I mentioned the tattoo parlor as the first instance of a cutscene involving Nozomi. Until this point, Nozomi seems like just another one of Ryo's friends. As for the cat, I was only remembering there being one of those cutscenes with Nozomi, but there were apparently three. It doesn't materially change anything, because two of them do absolutely nothing to develop their relationship, and the third one is basically Nozomi yelling at Ryo for not talking with her openly enough. They're also all optional, and easily missed.

The crux of the matter is that if one were just going through the first Shenmue, and not investing in optional content, Nozomi is a paper-thin character that the game appears to thrust on the player. That doesn't seem like it differs greatly from people's complaints of Shilin. Even with all of the optional details, and non-game materials, Nozomi still seems like a shallow, and undeveloped character, to me.


More importance ? Definitely. Do you have an exemple where Ryo and Shiling gets as many interactions ? Where the character is as close ? In fact, Nozomi gets as far as being mentionned in 2 and "appearing" in 3. So yeah, heavy revisionism going on here.

When does the game gives you insight ? As the game progress and developps. Nozomi starts, as you said, as a character in which you just have an ingame conversation. And it unfolds furthermore.

Yes; I readed your post: What you describe is called "character developpement". When you meet Nozomi, she's introduced as a regular NPC. And then it opens up, you get more insight on their relationship as conversations unfold. Even if you just hold onto the optional content, which is skipping the additionnal cutscenes, Nozomi is still a more fledged and important character than Shiling. Then again:
You litterally have an entire plot point revolving around her.
I mean, I cant believe I have to argue about that:

There's an entire setpiece dedicated to her and Ryo. Shiling and Nozomi have the same importance and as much developpement ?
Can you say that again for real ?
 
You take one look at Lan Di and you know this guy is bad to the bone base on character design alone. Don Niu was comically large and goofy in places but boy did I fear him. Running from him in those QTE segments felt like I was running for my life. All of the Shenmue III characters however just come across as bad. The designs are terrible, awkward and I just can't see why anyone would have been happy with those designs.
 
You take one look at Lan Di and you know this guy is bad to the bone base on character design alone. Don Niu was comically large and goofy in places but boy did I fear him. Running from him in those QTE segments felt like I was running for my life. All of the Shenmue III characters however just come across as bad. The designs are terrible, awkward and I just can't see why anyone would have been happy with those designs.


I disagree on the designs. I feel like they were quite good. As you said, Dou Niu was a goofy looking character out of context. He's basically a fat baldy wearing funny clothes. What made the character though is the voice, the scenes and such.

I actually like the design of the two thugs. The problem is that they're relegated to generic thugs in the way they're written.

In fact, when you look at older chapter boards, you can see the wrestler one looks really great and it sounds like they had bigger plans for him:
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Yeah i actually do like the designs. Its a very old school kung fu movie look. Mr muscles reminds me of the main bad guy from bloodsport. The jean claude van dam movie.

I agree with some of you, the characters in shenmue 3 are no where near as developed as shenmue 1 and 2 characters. Id say the only character you can make that argument for in shenmue 3 is Shenhua. Just my opinion though.

Whats missing in shenmue 3s characters is the mini story arcs and personal motivation. We need to feel like we can personally relate and connect to the characters in order for them to have a strong presence. Dont get me wrong though, i love the shenmue 3 cast. Wei zen, zuoughan, master sun, elder ye, master bei etc. Hotel lady is also memorable.
 
Id say the only character you can make that argument for in shenmue 3 is Shenhua.

A problem here too is that Shenhua seems like such a different character in S3, both from a visual standpoint and based on her personality.

I jumped into S2 recently and I missed the slightly otherworldly voice (English) Shenhua had and I missed her old visual design.

It seemed like the old Shenhua is gone forever and an imposter took her place who is obsessed with playing face off and says things like "New topic!" when she's annoyed. S2 Shenhua would have NEVER said "new topic!"

I also got the sense S3 Shenhua kinda didn't like Ryo anymore when they got to Niaowu... she got cold and distant "Ryo! I'm going to my room!"

There was one nice moment with her when she sang on the balcony at least.

I don't mean to complain, in many ways I love S3.... but in so many ways it disappoints.

Instead of S4, I seriously wish Yu-San would re-do S3 Shenhua to make her like her old self and add Baisha back in.

#FixShenmue3
 
Really? I liked shenhua much more in Shenmue 3. Both in design and personality. To each their own though
I guess I feel she seemed more ordinary in S3.. maybe that was the intention I guess.

I do wish someone would ask Suzuki why he felt the need to change the character so much.

Can you imagine Shenhua standing on the cliff reciting the poem without her dress and open sleeves blowing in the wind?

It's just not the same.
 
I guess I feel she seemed more ordinary in S3.. maybe that was the intention I guess.

I do wish someone would ask Suzuki why he felt the need to change the character so much.

Can you imagine Shenhua standing on the cliff reciting the poem without her dress and open sleeves blowing in the wind?

It's just not the same.


I'm glad I'm not the only one to feel the same. Voice acting is unfortunately also responsible from this. But it's like a completly different character.
 
Ryo.... The master of getting friendzoned
Nah, Ryo is the master of friend zoning. Eri has been wanting ton knock Ryos head off since middle school because he won't ask Nozomi out.

Joy couldn't have been more obvious.

The girl at the harbor lounge

Miki

Three man just has no desire for women.
 
Nah, Ryo is the master of friend zoning. Eri has been wanting ton knock Ryos head off since middle school because he won't ask Nozomi out.

Joy couldn't have been more obvious.

The girl at the harbor lounge

Miki

Three man just has no desire for women.

I think Izumi would have been a good match for Ryo.
 
I think Izumi would have been a good match for Ryo.
I forgot about izumi. Less reserved than Nozomi. Can break Ryo out of his shell a bit but not someone who would be up for over the top adventures like a joy or even a Miki
 
More importance ? Definitely. Do you have an exemple where Ryo and Shiling gets as many interactions ? Where the character is as close ? In fact, Nozomi gets as far as being mentionned in 2 and "appearing" in 3. So yeah, heavy revisionism going on here.

When does the game gives you insight ? As the game progress and developps. Nozomi starts, as you said, as a character in which you just have an ingame conversation. And it unfolds furthermore.

Yes; I readed your post: What you describe is called "character developpement". When you meet Nozomi, she's introduced as a regular NPC. And then it opens up, you get more insight on their relationship as conversations unfold. Even if you just hold onto the optional content, which is skipping the additionnal cutscenes, Nozomi is still a more fledged and important character than Shiling. Then again:
You litterally have an entire plot point revolving around her.
I mean, I cant believe I have to argue about that:

There's an entire setpiece dedicated to her and Ryo. Shiling and Nozomi have the same importance and as much developpement ?
Can you say that again for real ?
I realize I said I wasn't going to bother, but--.
Ooh, there are optional elements in the sequels where Nozomi gets a shoutout to please her fans? Stop the presses! Very important character coming through! I guess you know absolutely that the same won't be true for Shilin in any future releases. Guess that's it. Obviously I don't have an argument. Oh, except for this one, which you're routinely overlooking out of what seems to be indignation that anyone would ever even consider to make this comparison:
Nozomi's involvement in the main story, before the end of the game, amounts to three cutscenes.

This scene is basically most people's introduction to Nozomi being a "main" character within the game, and mostly serves to contextualize the regular aspects of a Japanese teenager's life that Ryo is foregoing in order to hunt down Lan Di, while also establishing this worrying thing Nozomi is always doing (in a less pejorative sense, she demonstrates that she cares about Ryo).

You still potentially don't know anything about Nozomi, but she's already about to confess deep feelings for Ryo, and you can at least infer that her parents are in Canada. That's about it. She's still an enigma, and there's no real context for any of this. As an aside, I can't stand how derivative of pretty much every confession scene in a Japanese drama this scene is. It's so cookie-cutter. It's a couple lines away from being a typical comedy routine in Japan. It's about my least favorite scene in the series.

It's a fine moment, but it's a bizarre trajectory. Still tells you almost nothing about who she is. Only that she seems to think she'll be all right with the state of their relationship when she leaves for Canada. At every moment in this game she's almost completely defined by the idea of, 'feelings for Ryo.'

That's about 5:58 of screen time. I can't revise this. This was always the limited presentation Nozomi had within the game if one didn't invest in her enough to talk with her regularly, and find the few optional cutscenes with her. The benefit Nozomi always had was that it was easier for people to invest in her because she's always in heavily emotionally charged scenes, giving her extrinsic importance (I'll come back to this).

Now Shilin:

About 2:50 of screen time. Roughly half Nozomi's. It's not long, but it does quite a lot to characterize her: shrine maiden, rushes to judgement, protective of her shrine, willing to take on ne'er-do-wells in retribution, repents for her faults, wants to join with Ryo in fighting crime. There's less scene variety here, but one can infer roughly as many details about her character as with Nozomi (if not more), in half the run-time.

Now let's have a real discussion about importance. So far, you've given a few of examples of Nozomi's extrinsic importance, a lot of 'you-oughta-knows.' Indeed, the game does its best to signal that 'THIS CHARACTER IS IMPORTANT,' by giving Nozomi a theme, and implying that she and Ryo know each other well. It makes her feel like she should be important. How about her intrinsic importance, though. What does she inherently provide to the narrative? Really, nothing, aside from a shallow love interest. Without optional cutscenes, she's completely one-dimensional. Even with them, she doesn't develop as a character over the course of the game; the most you could say about her is that she maybe figures out how to manage her feelings for Ryo by the end. Again, the player barely knows anything about who she is without digging, and even after digging, they're really only surface details, not unlike Shilin (who, by the way, doesn't benefit from extra-game materials like manuals, passports, guidebooks, etc). Nozomi doesn't affect Ryo in any meaningful way within the game. Again, any real context about why she would want this deeper relationship is also totally absent.

I specifically ignored the end of each game because, in both cases, how meaningful their contributions are completely depends on how much one invests in the character in order to be convinced that it makes sense. If you think that Nozomi is a believable love interest, then you likely enjoy how she's presented at the end of the game, regardless of whether it's warranted based on the inherent value of her limited interactions with Ryo beforehand. It's not much different for Shilin, but Shilin isn't signaled to be an important character as much as Nozomi is.

I will restate this: They are comparable. I did not say "the same." There is a difference. It would be nice if you got that. This is rather off topic, though, and I don't really see you backing down at all. So I imagine I'll just have to stop responding to you. If you still want to say that 'Nozomi is best girl,' and 'Shilin is dog shit,' then we don't have a dialogue. I mean, you're welcome to have that opinion, I can't stop that, but in that case I would say you're both overvaluing Nozomi, and undervaluing Shilin. How much so is a matter of opinion.


Rydeen, Nozomi was much more fleshed out than broom girl what's her name.

This isn't even an opinion.
Hopefully I've at least demonstrated that this is an opinion, but if not:
iu

;)


Nah, Ryo is the master of friend zoning.
Something I actually liked about the story pack DLC is that Shenhua has sort of a moment of understanding what Ryo's deal is after not being complimented about her outfit the way she seemed to hope she would, and then hearing him say that he's just not very good with romantic situations.
 
I specifically ignored the end of each game because, in both cases, how meaningful their contributions are completely depends on how much one invests in the character in order to be convinced that it makes sense.

I should preface this by saying I generally enjoy reading your posts but your defence and comparison that Shiling and Nozomi are comparable in terms of pure characterization and impact on story is bizarre to say the least.

So let me be clear no matter how much time player attempts to invest by talking to a Shiling, outside a meagre sidequest, there is no meaningful interaction. Yet with Nozomi there’s hidden cutscenes, a fight sequence, a ton of hidden dialogue that provide little details on Ryo’s life prior to his fathers death. It’s not even a fair comparison!

Better yet there’s a clear story arc of her character and she’s used as a foil to express Ryo’s tunnel vision for revenge and how that has eroded his relationship with his family and friends. Tell me what was Shiling arc? From your initial meeting with her, what progress did her character go through before deciding to join Ryo and gang to go to the Old Castle? I’ll wait for an answer, because the truth is the characterization is paper thin for most characters in Shenmue 3.

Now I’m not saying you have to like Nozomi as a character. You think her as a love interest is melodramatic. The truth is it completely is (didn’t you get inference from sappy love song after Ryo rescues her from harbour?). I mean after all we are talking about romance between two high schoolers. Of course it’s going to be silly, full of missteps, infatuation and unrequited feelings. However her character served a purpose, drove the story and had a clear arc. The same can’t be said for Shiling.
 
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I realize I said I wasn't going to bother, but--.
Ooh, there are optional elements in the sequels where Nozomi gets a shoutout to please her fans? Stop the presses! Very important character coming through! I guess you know absolutely that the same won't be true for Shilin in any future releases. Guess that's it. Obviously I don't have an argument. Oh, except for this one, which you're routinely overlooking out of what seems to be indignation that anyone would ever even consider to make this comparison:
Nozomi's involvement in the main story, before the end of the game, amounts to three cutscenes.

This scene is basically most people's introduction to Nozomi being a "main" character within the game, and mostly serves to contextualize the regular aspects of a Japanese teenager's life that Ryo is foregoing in order to hunt down Lan Di, while also establishing this worrying thing Nozomi is always doing (in a less pejorative sense, she demonstrates that she cares about Ryo).

You still potentially don't know anything about Nozomi, but she's already about to confess deep feelings for Ryo, and you can at least infer that her parents are in Canada. That's about it. She's still an enigma, and there's no real context for any of this. As an aside, I can't stand how derivative of pretty much every confession scene in a Japanese drama this scene is. It's so cookie-cutter. It's a couple lines away from being a typical comedy routine in Japan. It's about my least favorite scene in the series.

It's a fine moment, but it's a bizarre trajectory. Still tells you almost nothing about who she is. Only that she seems to think she'll be all right with the state of their relationship when she leaves for Canada. At every moment in this game she's almost completely defined by the idea of, 'feelings for Ryo.'

That's about 5:58 of screen time. I can't revise this. This was always the limited presentation Nozomi had within the game if one didn't invest in her enough to talk with her regularly, and find the few optional cutscenes with her. The benefit Nozomi always had was that it was easier for people to invest in her because she's always in heavily emotionally charged scenes, giving her extrinsic importance (I'll come back to this).

Now Shilin:

About 2:50 of screen time. Roughly half Nozomi's. It's not long, but it does quite a lot to characterize her: shrine maiden, rushes to judgement, protective of her shrine, willing to take on ne'er-do-wells in retribution, repents for her faults, wants to join with Ryo in fighting crime. There's less scene variety here, but one can infer roughly as many details about her character as with Nozomi (if not more), in half the run-time.

Now let's have a real discussion about importance. So far, you've given a few of examples of Nozomi's extrinsic importance, a lot of 'you-oughta-knows.' Indeed, the game does its best to signal that 'THIS CHARACTER IS IMPORTANT,' by giving Nozomi a theme, and implying that she and Ryo know each other well. It makes her feel like she should be important. How about her intrinsic importance, though. What does she inherently provide to the narrative? Really, nothing, aside from a shallow love interest. Without optional cutscenes, she's completely one-dimensional. Even with them, she doesn't develop as a character over the course of the game; the most you could say about her is that she maybe figures out how to manage her feelings for Ryo by the end. Again, the player barely knows anything about who she is without digging, and even after digging, they're really only surface details, not unlike Shilin (who, by the way, doesn't benefit from extra-game materials like manuals, passports, guidebooks, etc). Nozomi doesn't affect Ryo in any meaningful way within the game. Again, any real context about why she would want this deeper relationship is also totally absent.

I specifically ignored the end of each game because, in both cases, how meaningful their contributions are completely depends on how much one invests in the character in order to be convinced that it makes sense. If you think that Nozomi is a believable love interest, then you likely enjoy how she's presented at the end of the game, regardless of whether it's warranted based on the inherent value of her limited interactions with Ryo beforehand. It's not much different for Shilin, but Shilin isn't signaled to be an important character as much as Nozomi is.

I will restate this: They are comparable. I did not say "the same." There is a difference. It would be nice if you got that. This is rather off topic, though, and I don't really see you backing down at all. So I imagine I'll just have to stop responding to you. If you still want to say that 'Nozomi is best girl,' and 'Shilin is dog shit,' then we don't have a dialogue. I mean, you're welcome to have that opinion, I can't stop that, but in that case I would say you're both overvaluing Nozomi, and undervaluing Shilin. How much so is a matter of opinion.



Hopefully I've at least demonstrated that this is an opinion, but if not:
iu

;)



Something I actually liked about the story pack DLC is that Shenhua has sort of a moment of understanding what Ryo's deal is after not being complimented about her outfit the way she seemed to hope she would, and then hearing him say that he's just not very good with romantic situations.



Why is it missing an entire 3 minutes setpiece dedicated to Nozomi ?

Ah yes, because you would shoot down your own argument.

But yeah, let's pretend they have as much screentime and importance.

I'm the one who shouldn't bother. "B-but it's just your opinion" aka the "I dont have any valid argument" line.

I should even go further to say that the pizza guy in Shenmue I get as much characterisation as Shenhua. Hey it's your opinion if you think otherwise ! Facts don't exists !

Also for the record, I didn't say Shiling is a bad character. I said she's non existent. That's fairly different. And that's a shame because she really have a nice character design.

But to say they're comparable is just pure revisionism.

Nothing backup your statement. And we both know that Nozomi has a LOT more than 5 minutes of screen time has you pretend.

And yes, despite you wanting to brush off side content in the game, that's what characterisation is. All those optional Nozomi cutscenes and phone conversations are part of that'
 
I hate when they recton characters, but I find it funny that in the west they are trying to make every female a danger hair lesbian, and YS went "Shenhua likes making sammiches and clothes".
 
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