Were you happier with no Shenmue III? Or do you prefer living in a post-Shenmue III world?

[Dietsoap]

More importantly, were Yu Suzuki to stumble across this discussion, what exactly is he supposed to take away from it?... That he should make the next Shenmue more like Hellblade?

Why do you plant these horrible thoughts into my mind

 

[iknifaugood]

I haven’t seen anybody trying to make the argument that Shenmue 3 is a perfect game and so pointing out that it could have been ‘better’ seems somewhat redundant to me.

I think people have very different ideas of where/how it could be better. I'm primarily concerned with the story and storytelling, but not everyone agrees that's the most important thing so to them the idea that Shenmue would be faster paced and going from story sequence to story sequence (like Kowloon) would make the game worse, even though I think it would make the game better. Personally, I don't care if we get huge, detailed environments if it means Suzuki needs to cut or sacrifice the story and the fact that Shenmue will remain a lowish budget series going forward means that these are choices that need to be considered.

Yes, subjectively, you could make the argument that other developers have better utilized their budget and I’m sure you could provide plenty of examples of games with smaller budgets that you think are better than Shenmue 3. Conversely, I could provide plenty of examples of games with significantly larger budgets which I believe are worse than Shenmue 3, but to what end?

To the end that we can arrive at some kind of idea of what Shenmue should look like going forward.

YSNet are a newly formed development studio with a relatively small team of mostly inexperienced staff. Yu Suzuki is an industry veteran who is used to working with larger, more experienced teams and significantly larger budgets. That there may have been issues during the development cycle which lead to the budget not being utilized as best as it could have been or that Yu’s ambition when it came to the scope of the project may have been held back by these limitations should come as no surprise.

Could we have gotten a better game considering the size of the budget? Most probably. Could we have gotten a worse game in spite of the size of the budget? Most definitely. Ultimately though, I see it as something of a moot point.

What do we as a community gain from this line of discussion? More importantly, were Yu Suzuki to stumble across this discussion, what exactly is he supposed to take away from it? That he did a bad job? That he should make the next Shenmue more like Hellblade?

The arguments that we are having over how the budget should be spent, what Shenmue is actually about, and what needs to be in the game to properly continue the series are discussions that I assume YSNet are having right now and they seem to listen to fan feedback, so I hope they take everything into consideration. No, Shenmue shouldn't be more like Hellblade but perhaps it can learn from how Hellblade succeeded where it failed. I think that most criticism leveled at S3 has been largely fair and addressing it should be a primary concern moving forward.

I can easily see a world in which S4 follows S3's formula and sees Ryo wandering aimlessly looking for how to get into the Cliff Temple and having that be the climax of the game without ever getting to Meng Cun, Ziming, Shenhua's past etc. much less introducing new mysteries of its own, and that's not a game I have any interest in playing. And I'm worried that the amount of defense to S3's shortcomings (much less insisting that they were always part of the series) is going to make YSNet think they're acceptable.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think people have very different ideas of where/how it could be better. I'm primarily concerned with the story and storytelling, but not everyone agrees that's the most important thing so to them the idea that Shenmue would be faster paced and going from story sequence to story sequence (like Kowloon) would make the game worse, even though I think it would make the game better. Personally, I don't care if we get huge, detailed environments if it means Suzuki needs to cut or sacrifice the story and the fact that Shenmue will remain a lowish budget series going forward means that these are choices that need to be considered.


To the end that we can arrive at some kind of idea of what Shenmue should look like going forward.


The arguments that we are having over how the budget should be spent, what Shenmue is actually about, and what needs to be in the game to properly continue the series are discussions that I assume YSNet are having right now and they seem to listen to fan feedback, so I hope they take everything into consideration. No, Shenmue shouldn't be more like Hellblade but perhaps it can learn from how Hellblade succeeded where it failed. I think that most criticism leveled at S3 has been largely fair and addressing it should be a primary concern moving forward.

I can easily see a world in which S4 follows S3's formula and sees Ryo wandering aimlessly looking for how to get into the Cliff Temple and having that be the climax of the game without ever getting to Meng Cun, Ziming, Shenhua's past etc. much less introducing new mysteries of its own, and that's not a game I have any interest in playing. And I'm worried that the amount of defense to S3's shortcomings (much less insisting that they were always part of the series) is going to make YSNet think they're acceptable.

I have no issues with people loving Shenmue III.

While I cant understand why, it's fine. My issue though is with people holding back their thoughts because they're worried to hurt the serie.

While I can understand the sentiment I dont think it's a good thing to do. Much less going as far as saying "but I and II were the same !" which isn't true.

And while I think your comparison with Hellblade is hard to stand on, I see where you're going with that : Hellblade is a game with a similar budget as Shenmue III. The difference being, they knew from the begining they couldn't do as much as they wished. So they focused on key strenghts and managed to do well where they wanted to (presentation, narration and such).

On the other hand, Shenmue III tried to do everything and happens to be average at everything. Point being: Shenmue III isn't the only game on a budget that tries to be ambitious. The difference though is that some other games manage it better because they focus on key aspects to make it a better game overall.

 

[iknifaugood]

And while I think your comparison with Hellblade is hard to stand on

I want to clarify that it isn't my comparison, @DoubleO_Ren made the comparison, I'm just defending its right to exist, particularly the way he framed it.

On the other hand, Shenmue III tried to do everything and happens to be average at everything. Point being: Shenmue III isn't the only game on a budget that tries to be ambitious. The difference though is that some other games manage it better because they focus on key aspects to make it a better game overall.

This is exactly the point that was being made about Hellblade. It's a more focused game with fewer moving parts but those parts are of a much higher quality than S3.

 

[hmjohnny]

What do we as a community gain from this line of discussion? More importantly, were Yu Suzuki to stumble across this discussion, what exactly is he supposed to take away from it? That he did a bad job? That he should make the next Shenmue more like Hellblade?

I think he should note how a game like Hellblade was focused on the teams strengths. I don't believe anyone here is saying Shenmue should become a different genre. Rather, that Ninja Theory knew they had a limited (ish) budget and decided to make a focused games that played to the team's experiences and strengths. The comparison is often made because the budgets and team size were similar, not the games themselves.

Shenmue 3 may not have had the luxury of an experienced team, especially one with UE4, but going into S4 I think the takeaway is to determine what can be stripped away from Shenmue while still retaining its essence and not compromising its story (too much). Also, perhaps changing the design a little to focus on what the team can realistically deliver well rather than deciding that more is more.

 

[B-Man]

Ninja Theory clearly had a distinct advantage in the sense that Hellblade was an original IP and was conceived with the budgetary restrictions in mind.

Shenmue III had certain expectations to live up to. If Ys Net had stripped out too many elements from the game and focused completely on story, there would be a ton of fans complaining that it wasn't a true Shenmue experience. I'm not saying that they made all the right decisions, but it was a no-win situation as far as pleasing the entire fanbase goes.

 

[WuyingRen]

I think he should note how a game like Hellblade was focused on the teams strengths. I don't believe anyone here is saying Shenmue should become a different genre. Rather, that Ninja Theory knew they had a limited (ish) budget and decided to make a focused games that played to the team's experiences and strengths. The comparison is often made because the budgets and team size were similar, not the games themselves.

Shenmue 3 may not have had the luxury of an experienced team, especially one with UE4, but going into S4 I think the takeaway is to determine what can be stripped away from Shenmue while still retaining its essence and not compromising its story (too much). Also, perhaps changing the design a little to focus on what the team can realistically deliver well rather than deciding that more is more.

I think the experience of developing Shenmue 3 will have given Yu and his team a better idea of what can and can’t be achieved with the budget available to them for Shenmue 4 and this in turn will hopefully allow them to limit the scope of the project accordingly.

It seems a little unfair to suggest that the budget for Shenmue 3 was poorly managed though without knowing what was going on behind the scenes. That there were many elements that ended up being cut from the game (including what Yu himself considered to be the game’s main area) suggests that certain aspects of development ended up costing more than he had originally predicted or were simply too difficult to implement with the team/resources at his disposal.

You say that Yu should have worked to his team’s strengths and whilst this is obviously logical advice, Yu had never worked with many of these people before Shenmue 3’s development began and so probably wasn’t aware of what their strengths and weaknesses were, making this much easier said than done.

One could argue that he could have altered his plans as he grew to better understand the limitations of his team (which it seems was actually the case), but it’s not like he could have drastically changed the scope of the project midway through development, especially having made so many promises during the Kickstarter campaign.

Moving forwards however, I think Yu will have a much better idea of how far he can stretch his budget and exactly what his team are (and are not) capable of. That he himself scored the game a 5 or a 6 out of 10 suggests that he’s aware of the game’s shortcomings and will hopefully seek to address them in future Shenmue games.

I think people have very different ideas of where/how it could be better. I'm primarily concerned with the story and storytelling, but not everyone agrees that's the most important thing so to them the idea that Shenmue would be faster paced and going from story sequence to story sequence (like Kowloon) would make the game worse, even though I think it would make the game better. Personally, I don't care if we get huge, detailed environments if it means Suzuki needs to cut or sacrifice the story and the fact that Shenmue will remain a lowish budget series going forward means that these are choices that need to be considered.

To the end that we can arrive at some kind of idea of what Shenmue should look like going forward.

I think the very first line of your post perfectly sums up Yu’s predicament and is perhaps the reason why some think that it’s unfair to compare Shenmue 3 to a new IP. Every one of us has different ideas as to what the true essence of Shenmue is and how the series should move forwards and so to please the entirety of the fan base is a near impossible task.

An important question that nobody seems to be asking is ‘What does Shenmue mean to Yu?’.

Whilst I think he was somewhat beholden to the desires of the fan base during development of Shenmue 3 due to the Kickstarter and agree that completely ignoring fan feedback moving forwards would be foolish, Shenmue is his game and he has every right to take it in whichever direction he pleases. Some of us might not agree with some of the choices he makes, but what right do we have to tell him how to bring his vision to fruition?

 

[orient]

Is your argument really that games with open environments can't be compared to games with linear environments?

We're not talking about broad game-to-game comparisons here. When it comes to budget -- which was the context in which it was brought up -- yes, but not on its own. I mentioned several factors that, when all are taken into account, make it a weak comparison. You focussed on one aspect of my argument to pick apart, and I didn't find it convincing at all.

If the real reason you're arguing is because you don't like bad comparisons being shot down then, please, devise a good comparison and we can discuss that one instead.

Because you (and several other people on this forum) are shutting down discussion when S3 is compared to other games by constantly saying that the comparison is invalid...

Other games? Constantly saying? Um, seems you're exaggerating my involvement. The suggestion that negativity is being stifled on here is BS. Look around, there's a healthy mix of positive and negative takes on SIII throughout the forum. Again, if you don't want bad comparisons to be shut down, come up with a better comparison.

 

[hmjohnny]

It seems a little unfair to suggest that the budget for Shenmue 3 was poorly managed though without knowing what was going on behind the scenes. That there were many elements that ended up being cut from the game (including what Yu himself considered to be the game’s main area) suggests that certain aspects of development ended up costing more than he had originally predicted or were simply too difficult to implement with the team/resources at his disposal.

I agree that we can't really speculate whether the budget was poorly managed. Projects can, and often do, go sideways and it's hard to lay blame at a single fault (if there is one) when they do.

I do think we can criticize how the project was scoped however, and scope and budget go hand in hand. I think we can clearly see from the ambition of Shenmue 3 that the project was not scoped well for the budget it had. So many ideas made it on the cutting room floor, like Baisha, as you mention.

The promises that were made from early on in the Kickstarter don't sound like a low-mid sized budget project: 3 fully open areas with hundreds of fully voiced NPC's. Affinity and character perspective systems, a strategy game, plus everything else. Just implementing the basics of Shenmue in one area with a decent combat system, and limited extras would have been difficult to do. Especially more so when considering starting a new studio and training a mostly new team. Honestly, I am impressed with what YSNet was able to accomplish given all the restraints, especially once I got to Niaowu in the game, but it still fell a little flat, like they were trying to do too much without excelling at any of it. For me, they ultimately did fail to deliver what I felt was core to Shenmue, continuing the story in a meaningful way. It did seem like Suzuki was trying to fit everything in there and more (so many new ideas the originals didn't even have!). Knowing Suzuki is prone to scope creep and often overly ambitious some fault has to come from that.

I think my main point being that I would have preferred a more restrained experience that focused on the essentials and delivered the best possible experience even if that meant reducing the scope of the game. I think most of us went into Shenmue 3 with adjusted expectations not expecting a AAA game anyway. Trying to aim for one, while ambitious, may not have been the best decision. But I get that hindsight is also 20/20.

Moving forwards however, I think Yu will have a much better idea of how far he can stretch his budget and exactly what his team are (and are not) capable of. That he himself scored the game a 5 or a 6 out of 10 suggests that he’s aware of the game’s shortcomings and will hopefully seek to address them in future Shenmue games.

I honestly hope so. I think to some extent you are right that he is aware of the faults. My only hope is that S4 has a big enough budget to at least realize Shenmue in a way that satisfies most of the fans so long as their expectations regarding the production values are in check.

 

[WuyingRen]

I agree that we can't really speculate whether the budget was poorly managed. Projects can, and often do, go sideways and it's hard to lay blame at a single fault (if there is one) when they do.

I do think we can criticize how the project was scoped however, and scope and budget go hand in hand. I think we can clearly see from the ambition of Shenmue 3 that the project was not scoped well for the budget it had. So many ideas made it on the cutting room floor, like Baisha, as you mention.

The promises that were made from early on in the Kickstarter don't sound like a low-mid sized budget project: 3 fully open areas with hundreds of fully voiced NPC's. Affinity and character perspective systems, a strategy game, plus everything else. Just implementing the basics of Shenmue in one area with a decent combat system, and limited extras would have been difficult to do. Especially more so when considering starting a new studio and training a mostly new team. Honestly, I am impressed with what YSNet was able to accomplish given all the restraints, especially once I got to Niaowu in the game, but it still fell a little flat, like they were trying to do too much without excelling at any of it. For me, they ultimately did fail to deliver what I felt was core to Shenmue, continuing the story in a meaningful way. It did seem like Suzuki was trying to fit everything in there and more (so many new ideas the originals didn't even have!). Knowing Suzuki is prone to scope creep and often overly ambitious some fault has to come from that.

I think my main point being that I would have preferred a more restrained experience that focused on the essentials and delivered the best possible experience even if that meant reducing the scope of the game. I think most of us went into Shenmue 3 with adjusted expectations not expecting a AAA game anyway. Trying to aim for one, while ambitious, may not have been the best decision. But I get that hindsight is also 20/20.

I’m not arguing with any of this and think that a lot of the things that you took issue with during your time with the game are the same things that disappointed me and many other fans of the series.

That Yu’s ambitions for the game were not in line with the budget and resources available to him seems fairly clear (at least from an outside perspective) and I don’t think that the various Kickstarter stretch goals did him any favors in this regard.

That said, I think given the circumstances surrounding development we should cut him some slack. He obviously believed that he could deliver on his promises at the time of making them and considering he’s accustomed to working on projects with significantly larger budgets where he hasn’t had to worry about individual costs, it’s easy to see how he could have made mistakes when it came to planning the cost of implementing his ideas. Likewise; working with a team that may have taken longer to achieve the level of quality that he expected than he is accustomed to could also make planning and budgeting a project of this scale incredibly challenging.

It sounds ridiculous to say that an industry veteran like Yu Suzuki lacks experience, but when it comes to working on projects with limited/fixed budgets and with a relatively inexperienced team, it seems like a fair assessment. I think we should be able to forgive mistakes that are born out of inexperience and whether or not others agree with this sentiment, I don’t see how continuing to bang on the same drum does anything for anybody.

Furthermore, to point out that the project could have been better by comparing it to a game that, whilst very well put together, has nowhere near the depth or scope of Shenmue 3 and to then say that Yu needs to be told this suggests that he isn’t self aware enough to recognize these things himself. I think that’s doing him a massive disservice.

He may have limited experience when it comes to working on smaller projects and he may have made some mistakes during the development of Shenmue 3, but his track record shows that he clearly knows what constitutes a good game and that given the right conditions, he is more than capable of producing them.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

I compared Hellblade to Shenmue 3 because of the similar circumstances of production and similar budget, yes I already mentioned it's more linear than Shenmue 3 and it's got less mechanics so to speak but the quality of it's graphics, models and combat leave Shenmue in the dust and of course the narrative part of the game. It was just an example of what can be done with such a budget in terms of presentation with the right artists. It's not the budget that made the piss poor menu, any one of us could mod the old style menu and music into Shenmue 3 for free, it's not the budget that made such an ugly UI, it's not the budget that made the game have such poor music implementation and choice and it's definitely not the budget that made Shenmue 3 have no story.

I don't need Ziming, I don't need the ChiYouMen bosses, hell I don't even need to fight Niao Sun or Lan Di, I don't care what the story is, just make it compelling, fulfilling and consistent with the gameplay. If Yu is not ready to get to the ChiYou Men bosses and needs to focus on Red Snakes and Blue Spiders, that's fine just make it interesting. I don't think budget stopped that from happening. I loved the gameplay by the way, and yes it did feel like Shenmue with the lucky hit, the exploration, the talking to NPC's, the arcade, the forklift all of that is great but it still needs a soul, Shenmue 1 & 2 had that, even Shenmue 1 as some have argued is quite similar to three in how many fights you have and the slow pace but the reason why Shenmue 1 beats 3 imo was how it was presented, the music, the characters, the plot, the progression felt natural, consistent and memorable, Master Chen, Nozomi, Guizang, Fuku San, Mark, Great Chai, Terry, Ine San, Tom vs Elder Yeh, Master Bei, Shenhua and people who are kinda static until the final mission. The people that loved Shenmue in 1999 only for the graphics, lucky hit and open world elements aren't on this forum, those are the people on Youtube saying "I loved Shenmue back then but today it hasn't aged well" that's not us, there was something else that drew us into the simple tale of revenge, something that's hard to explain but we all know it's there. I think it's it's a combination of everything, both Shenmue 1 & 2 had it, 3 was missing it which has led to this split in the fanbase.

And what most of you defenders need to realise is most people at least on this forum don't even hate Shenmue 3, they are just defending their negative opinions of the game so it can come across as hate. We all acknowledge Yu captured Shenmue 1 & 2's world very well but it was missing some key ingredients that have more to do than just the budget, if anything I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to time and mismanagement more than budget.

 

[iknifaugood]

We're not talking about broad game-to-game comparisons here. When it comes to budget -- which was the context in which it was brought up -- yes, but not on its own.

What? So if the games have a similar budget then they can't be compared? What are you talking about?

I mentioned several factors that, when all are taken into account, make it a weak comparison. You focussed on one aspect of my argument to pick apart, and I didn't find it convincing at all.

No, I actually replied to every single point you made.

If the real reason you're arguing is because you don't like bad comparisons being shot down then, please, devise a good comparison and we can discuss that one instead.

First of all, not my comparison. Second of all, you didn't shoot anything down, you attempted to dismiss a perfectly valid point about budget and storytelling out of hand because the game is short, linear, and has fewer NPCs.

Other games? Constantly saying? Um, seems you're exaggerating my involvement. The suggestion that negativity is being stifled on here is BS. Look around, there's a healthy mix of positive and negative takes on SIII throughout the forum. Again, if you don't want bad comparisons to be shut down, come up with a better comparison.

I've seen everything from Yakuza, to adventure games, to other KS games, to the previous entries in the series dismissed for one reason or another (usually budget) as if that invalidates someone's point. Sure, Hellblade's Senua looks realistic and you can chalk that up to higher quality character models and such, but she also behaves like a human, not some weird emotionless robot, which is a fair comparison.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think the very first line of your post perfectly sums up Yu’s predicament and is perhaps the reason why some think that it’s unfair to compare Shenmue 3 to a new IP. Every one of us has different ideas as to what the true essence of Shenmue is and how the series should move forwards and so to please the entirety of the fan base is a near impossible task.

It doesn't need to please the entire fanbase but, imo, could easily have avoided many of the rakes it stepped on that opened it up to mockery because that's the stuff that turns the wider audience off and leads to reviews saying "for fans only" (which I, a fan, also strongly disagree with).

An important question that nobody seems to be asking is ‘What does Shenmue mean to Yu?’.

I've actually posited this very question several times on this forum. One of my main criticisms of S3 is that it failed to provide any insight into this for me.

Whilst I think he was somewhat beholden to the desires of the fan base during development of Shenmue 3 due to the Kickstarter and agree that completely ignoring fan feedback moving forwards would be foolish, Shenmue is his game and he has every right to take it in whichever direction he pleases. Some of us might not agree with some of the choices he makes, but what right do we have to tell him how to bring his vision to fruition?

Definitely true. But if he wants to insist that he needs at least 4-5 games to bring his vision to fruition (especially if he's going the crowdfunding route again), he needs to be concerned with at the very least retaining the audience he has. Most of my criticisms are through the lens of "I want Shenmue to be as appealing as possible so I can see the ending to Shenmue" because, as the uncertainty around whether or not we're getting S4 proves: the Shenmue fanbase simply isn't enough.

 

[WuyingRen]

It doesn't need to please the entire fanbase but, imo, could easily have avoided many of the rakes it stepped on that opened it up to mockery because that's the stuff that turns the wider audience off and leads to reviews saying "for fans only" (which I, a fan, also strongly disagree with).

The story (or lack thereof) seems to have been the main source of disappointment for fans, but the majority of the issues that reviewers had with the game are fairly superficial and things that were prevalent in previous games (slow pacing, goofy writing and awkward dialogue). Aside from a few reviews that complained about Shenmue 3 not concluding the saga (which seems like an unfair criticism considering that was never something that was on the table), I’m not sure I saw a single review that criticized the game’s story or the underdeveloped characters.

With this in mind, addressing the issues that you had with Shenmue 3 in future games would not necessarily bring an end to the mockery nor would it dispel the idea that Shenmue is a game for fans only. If anything, the further into the story we get, the less accessible Shenmue will be for people unfamiliar with the series.

I've actually posited this very question several times on this forum. One of my main criticisms of S3 is that it failed to provide any insight into this for me.

Shenmue 3 might not be the best example of this given that it was designed with fans in mind. I suppose we’ll find out once Shenmue 4 releases.

Definitely true. But if he wants to insist that he needs at least 4-5 games to bring his vision to fruition (especially if he's going the crowdfunding route again), he needs to be concerned with at the very least retaining the audience he has. Most of my criticisms are through the lens of "I want Shenmue to be as appealing as possible so I can see the ending to Shenmue" because, as the uncertainty around whether or not we're getting S4 proves: the Shenmue fanbase simply isn't enough.

See my earlier response to hmjohny for a more in depth response to this, but to summarize, I think that we as a fan base should have faith that Yu will learn from his experience developing Shenmue 3 and be able to deliver a more refined Shenmue experience moving forwards.

 

[iknifaugood]

The story (or lack thereof) seems to have been the main source of disappointment for fans, but the majority of the issues that reviewers had with the game are fairly superficial and things that were prevalent in previous games (slow pacing, goofy writing and awkward dialogue).

Well most of the reviewers said something along the lines of "this is basically a 20 year old Dreamcast game", essentially implying that the game is only for fans who fondly remember those old DC games and subtly insulting the game for being old and outdated (which it, almost proudly, is). I don't think it's wrong to want the way dialogue is handled to be updated (more natural writing/acting, fewer stilted gaps between lines, no weird camera fades etc.), or to make the game faster paced if you're just following the story. Shenmue was always supposed to have wide appeal, that's why Sega spent so much money on it; that it ended up having a small fanbase isn't something to lean into, imo. Fans are going to be there no matter what-- I really dislike S3 and I'll be the first to buy S4 when it comes out and I assume the same would be true for everyone here if the roles were reversed.

Aside from a few reviews that complained about Shenmue 3 not concluding the saga (which seems like an unfair criticism considering that was never something that was on the table), I’m not sure I saw a single review that criticized the game’s story or the underdeveloped characters.

I think criticizing the fact that it didn't end is criticizing the story. To many people, Shenmue is the story of Ryo taking revenge on Lan Di and S3 offers precious little to expand on that premise or deepen the story so when it ends and all that happened was "Ryo beat up some thugs and got his ass kicked by Lan Di", of course that's going to manifest itself as "now we need to wait another 20 years for Shenmue 4?!". Sure I know about Ziming, and Shenhua's mysterious past, and Iwao's adventures in China and all the other cool mysteries but S3 doesn't care about those. I knew from S1 that Iwao trained in Bailu with Sunming Zhao and what did I find out when I got to Bailu Village? That Iwao trained there with Sunming Zhao. So if it doesn't even provide enough information for me to care, why would anyone who wasn't already invested in the story care? And why would they care about a sequel?

(EDIT) Yahtzee actually left his criticism of the story out of his review and put it as a joke in the credits "Don't miss the next three Shenmue sequels after which Ryo will have finally completed the first third of his character arc", which is perhaps his fairest and most devastating criticism of the game.

If anything, the further into the story we get, the less accessible Shenmue will be for people unfamiliar with the series.

I agree with this completely which is why I'm so hard on S3: it was the best/only chance to expand the audience and make people see "ohhh this is why people like the series so much and want to see it continue". And the way to do that was certainly not to have people grind for money to buy a $2000 bottle of wine and sacrifice Shenmue's greatest gameplay asset (the combat).

Shenmue 3 might not be the best example of this given that it was designed with fans in mind. I suppose we’ll find out once Shenmue 4 releases.

Hopefully. But considering S3 has been something Suzuki hasn't let go of for 20 years, I was expecting far more of a personal and authorial voice to come through. Why does he care so much to make this series 5 installments?

See my earlier response to hmjohny for a more in depth response to this, but to summarize, I think that we as a fan base should have faith that Yu will learn from his experience developing Shenmue 3 and be able to deliver a more refined Shenmue experience moving forwards.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

There's very little I can contribute to this discussion. However, I don't think the budgets of Shenmue III and Hellblade can be compared. With the way people here are describing Hellblade, it sounds like Ninja Theory knew the budget they had and went with it. Suzuki on the other hand didn't.

It has been stated in several interviews that he's had to scale the development budget for Shenmue III multiple times. Originally with just the Kickstarter funds we would have gotten a very bare bones story driven game. And when you take into account the net Kickstarter amount (after backer rewards and Kickstarter fees) it makes sense. After Kickstarter, the budget changed again with Suzuki going to Deep Silver. So when the budget finally stabilized, Shenmue III's development changed again due to said changing budget.

Also like I have said in the past, Suzuki is an artist, not a businessman. This time around however he had to be both, which was very taxing for him. When he was with SEGA commanding AM2, he was largely relieved of that burden due to AM2 answering to SEGA's higher ups.

In other words, I am with @tomboz in that Suzuki needs to be cut some slack. Ninja Theory had structure, Suzuki didn't, as things constantly shifted during the development process for Shenmue III. Personally, I think Suzuki gave fans what he believed they wanted. So that's another reason why I am more than willing to support a Shenmue IV, to see if the growing pains of Shenmue III have been sorted out.

 

[WuyingRen]

Well most of the reviewers said something along the lines of "this is basically a 20 year old Dreamcast game", essentially implying that the game is only for fans who fondly remember those old DC games and subtly insulting the game for being old and outdated (which it, almost proudly, is). I don't think it's wrong to want the way dialogue is handled to be updated (more natural writing/acting, fewer stilted gaps between lines, no weird camera fades etc.), or to make the game faster paced if you're just following the story. Shenmue was always supposed to have wide appeal, that's why Sega spent so much money on it; that it ended up having a small fanbase isn't something to lean into, imo. Fans are going to be there no matter what-- I really dislike S3 and I'll be the first to buy S4 when it comes out and I assume the same would be true for everyone here if the roles were reversed.

Personally, I have never found the goofiness of the dialogue to be endearing and would have loved for them to have aimed for more natural dialogue in terms of both the writing and the delivery in Shenmue 3. I’m happy that they kept the pace of the game slow, but would have preferred it if they’d devised more organic measures to draw things out rather than placing progression behind an artificial in game paywall.

Regardless of what I would have preferred though, these elements are arguably part of the Shenmue formula at this point. Some might feel that removing or altering too many of these elements runs the risk of upsetting the fan base, whose continued support, as you point out, may prove vital if we’re ever going to make it to the end of the story.

I think criticizing the fact that it didn't end is criticizing the story. To many people, Shenmue is the story of Ryo taking revenge on Lan Di and S3 offers precious little to expand on that premise or deepen the story so when it ends and all that happened was "Ryo beat up some thugs and got his ass kicked by Lan Di", of course that's going to manifest itself as "now we need to wait another 20 years for Shenmue 4?!". Sure I know about Ziming, and Shenhua's mysterious past, and Iwao's adventures in China and all the other cool mysteries but S3 doesn't care about those. I knew from S1 that Iwao trained in Bailu with Sunming Zhao and what did I find out when I got to Bailu Village? That Iwao trained there with Sunming Zhao. So if it doesn't even provide enough information for me to care, why would anyone who wasn't already invested in the story care? And why would they care about a sequel?

This is your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but I think you’re projecting your own bias into your inferences here. Although perhaps lacking in depth, the story beats in Shenmue 3 did just as much to set up intrigue in a 4th game as the original game did to set up Shenmue 2.

In the articles I read at least, the opinion was quite clearly framed as ‘This was Suzuki’s chance to complete the story after 18 years and he should have taken it.’ rather than ‘The story in this game was terrible and so he should’ve just wrapped things up here.’.

I agree with this completely which is why I'm so hard on S3: it was the best/only chance to expand the audience and make people see "ohhh this is why people like the series so much and want to see it continue". And the way to do that was certainly not to have people grind for money to buy a $2000 bottle of wine and minimize Shenmue's greatest gameplay asset (the combat).

I wasn’t really keeping track, but it certainly didn’t feel as though the amount of story-based combat was any less than in previous Shenmue games (if anything, I think there may have actually been more due to it being cheaper to implement a free battle than a QTE). If you factor in the 2 dojo’s and the Rose Garden fights m, I’m fairly certain there was more combat in Shenmue 3 than either of the previous entries.

Hopefully. But considering S3 has been something Suzuki hasn't let go of for 20 years, I was expecting far more of a personal and authorial voice to come through. Why does he care so much to make this series 5 installments?

I think that Yu having to resort to Kickstarter to fund Shenmue 3 may have lead to us getting a very different game than the one that he had originally planned to make. Whilst personally I would have preferred him to have stuck to his original vision, I can certainly see why he instead opted to make the game that he thought the fans wanted and can’t really hold that against him.

I have to say that it feels a little ironic that you claim to be disappointed that Yu seems to have altered his vision for Shenmue 3 to appease the fans whilst at the same time arguing that he should do the same again with future games in the series.

 

[iknifaugood]

I’m happy that they kept the pace of the game slow, but would have preferred it if they’d devised more organic measures to draw things out rather than placing progression behind an artificial in game paywall.

Right, this is what I mean when I say slow =/= boring. I love slow paced games, many reviewers do too, S3 being slow is not what draws criticism; the fact that it's often boring does.

Regardless of what I would have preferred though, these elements are arguably part of the Shenmue formula at this point.

Again, I don't see how you can claim Shenmue has a formula. S2's final disc takes place in a forest far away from any city, arcade, minigame hub, or fight and before S3, that was 1/4 of an 11 chapter story. Where is the formula? Yes, Ryo fought thugs in his hometown: that doesn't mean that he needs to be fighting gang members in Chapter 10.

Some might feel that removing or altering too many of these elements runs the risk of upsetting the fan base, whose continued support, as you point out, may prove vital if we’re ever going to make it to the end of the story.

I think the fanbase is already upset, but that doesn't matter because fans, by their nature, are never really going to abandon ship. Even fans who hate S3 will likely buy S4 simply by virtue of their investment in the series.

Although perhaps lacking in depth, the story beats in Shenmue 3 did just as much to set up intrigue in a 4th game as the original game did to set up Shenmue 2.

(EDIT) Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one (Hazuki basement, Lan Di accusing Iwao of murder, Master Chen’s story of the mirrors and Ryo’s dreams of Shenhua all point to bigger developments that people are still theorizing about, S3 added precious little to that.)

In the articles I read at least, the opinion was quite clearly framed as ‘This was Suzuki’s chance to complete the story after 18 years and he should have taken it.’ rather than ‘The story in this game was terrible and so he should’ve just wrapped things up here.’.

Yes, some of them did that for sure. But I think I've seen the criticism that this game didn't advance the story enough from nearly every review I read.

I wasn’t really keeping track, but it certainly didn’t feel as though the amount of story-based combat was any less than in previous Shenmue games (if anything, I think there may have actually been more due to it being cheaper to implement a free battle than a QTE). If you factor in the 2 dojo’s and the Rose Garden fights m, I’m fairly certain there was more combat in Shenmue 3 than either of the previous entries.

I meant more the mechanics of the combat system. Obviously with a KS budget it wasn't going to be as in-depth but it lacks any real strategy or finesse considering the game is ostensibly about martial arts. High-level S1 amd 2 combat is a sight to behold in a way that is just not possible in S3.

It also doesn't matter to me that on a checklist S3 technically has 3 boss battles and S2 has one because S2's boss battle is Dou Niu and I've already forgotten the names of the bosses in S3. Quality > quantity and all that.

Whilst personally I would have preferred him to have stuck to his original vision, I can certainly see why he instead opted to make the game that he thought the fans wanted and can’t really hold that against him.

If this is true then I kind of can't hear that Suzuki is a visionary auteur.

I have to say that it feels a little ironic that you claim to be disappointed that Yu seems to have altered his vision for Shenmue 3 to appease the fans whilst at the same time arguing that he should do the same again with future games in the series.

I think that he should have prioritized making S3 as appealing as possible to a wide audience in order to expand the audience. I don't believe that everyone was waiting to make fun of the game and refuse to try it no matter what, though I'm definitely sympathetic to the fact that Bailu Village, of all places, was a less than ideal place to resume. I think that he should change it in S4 because I think S3 is bad and I would like S4 to be good.

 

[WuyingRen]

Right, this is what I mean when I say slow =/= boring. I love slow paced games, many reviewers do too, S3 being slow is not what draws criticism; the fact that it's often boring does.

Were there never times when you found airing out the books in Shenmue 2 boring? What about having to drive a forklift around for a week in Shenmue 1?

As a representation of real life, I have no issue with certain elements of the game being mundane or even boring to a degree, because life can at times be mundane and boring. I suppose my real issue here is that the story continues to move whilst completing these tasks in the first few games and the tasks are a little more focused whereas in Shenmue 3 it felt like they brought the story to a screeching halt whilst effectively telling the player to go grind money somewhere.

That I found it a little tedious isn’t necessarily my main issue, more that it felt like a very obvious way of padding the length of the game.

Again, I don't see how you can claim Shenmue has a formula. S2's final disc takes place in a forest far away from any city, arcade, minigame hub, or fight and before S3, that was 1/4 of an 11 chapter story. Where is the formula? Yes, Ryo fought thugs in his hometown: that doesn't mean that he needs to be fighting gang members in Chapter 10.

Shenmue was conceived as a Virtua Fighter RPG. That fighting is going to play a central role throughout every stage of its story should come as no surprise and from a thematic perspective, I’d argue that Ryo’s growth as a person through his training as a martial artist is arguably the main element of Shenmue.

Yes, Guilin was a little out of keeping with the rest of the story, but this section comprised 2 or 3 days of a journey that’s been going on for months. Guilin aside, the locations in Shenmue 3 were perfectly in line with previous locations from the series.

I think the fanbase is already upset, but that doesn't matter because fans, by their nature, are never really going to abandon ship. Even fans who hate S3 will likely buy S4 simply by virtue of their investment in the series.

I think ‘the fan base is upset’ is a huge over generalization here. Some of the fan base may be upset, but the reception might have been significantly worse if they’d made drastic changes to the formula.

(EDIT) Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one (Hazuki basement, Lan Di accusing Iwao of murder, Master Chen’s story of the mirrors and Ryo’s dreams of Shenhua all point to bigger developments that people are still theorizing about, S3 added precious little to that.)

But a lot of these plot lines still haven’t played out. We still need to visit Meng Cun and find out if Iwao really killed Sunming Zhao and we still need to find out exactly what the mirrors do, amongst other things.

In terms of new plot points, we need to find out who exactly is pulling Lan Di’s strings and discover what will happen between the warring factions of the Chi You Men. To suggest that there’s not enough intrigue for people to want the story to continue seems a little laughable with these things in mind.

Yes, some of them did that for sure. But I think I've seen the criticism that this game didn't advance the story enough from nearly every review I read.

I haven’t read every review of Shenmue 3 but would be very surprised if none of the reviewers criticized the story as personally, it was the weakest area of the game and the one most warranting criticism.

My original point remains though, that most reviewers criticized elements of the game which have been prevalent within the series since its first game and a better story would have done little to dispel these criticisms. Of course, the obvious argument here is that addressing the criticisms from the first few games rather than embracing them should possibly have been on Yu’s to do list, but that’s a different conversation.

I meant more the mechanics of the combat system. Obviously with a KS budget it wasn't going to be as in-depth but it lacks any real strategy or finesse considering the game is ostensibly about martial arts. High-level S1 amd 2 combat is a sight to behold in a way that is just not possible in S3.

I’m really not sure how you can compare the technical aspects of the combat system to a story beat which required the character to grind and expect me to take you seriously.

The combat system likely ate up a huge chunk of the team’s budget and making further improvements to it would have lead to compromises needing to have been made in other areas of the game (smaller environments, sacrificing the English dub, lower graphical fidelity, etc) whilst forcing the player to grind to progress the story served as a way of padding the length of the game and probably cost them absolutely nothing.

Removing the need to buy the wine would have lead to a shorter game whilst providing no additional budget or resources to improve the combat system.

It also doesn't matter to me that on a checklist S3 technically has 3 boss battles and S2 has one because S2's boss battle is Dou Niu and I've already forgotten the names of the bosses in S3. Quality > quantity and all that.

I agree with you on this point, but we’re now no longer talking about the team ‘minimizing combat’ and more the character development of the antagonists in Shenmue 3.

If this is true then I kind of can't hear that Suzuki is a visionary auteur.

Whilst Shenmue 3 may not be the best example of Yu’s auteurism, that it’s seen by most reviewers and a lot of fans as being a true sequel to Shenmue 2, suggests that Yu and his team at least got some things right.

In my opinion, being grateful to the fan base who effectively allowed your dream to continue and making compromises to your vision in an attempt to please them and show your gratitude isn’t something that should be criticized, but to each their own.

I think that he should have prioritized making S3 as appealing as possible to a wide audience in order to expand the audience. I don't believe that everyone was waiting to make fun of the game and refuse to try it no matter what, though I'm definitely sympathetic to the fact that Bailu Village, of all places, was a less than ideal place to resume. I think that he should change it in S4 because I think S3 is bad and I would like S4 to be good.

How exactly could Yu have made Shenmue more appealing to a wider audience without fundamentally changing the essence of the series and upsetting some of the fans that have supported him for nearly two decades?

Let’s look at some of the more common criticisms of the game/series from the ‘wider audience’;

Poor graphics. The team could have allocated more of the budget to the environments of the game, but this would have lead to compromises being made elsewhere. Would you have been happy if they’d spent less on developing the combat system in order to improve the graphics?

Poor dialogue. The team could have replaced the voice actors with more talented actors and hired a better in studio director. Do you think the fan base would have been happy if Corey had been replaced and cuts had been made to other areas of the game to cover the increased cost of the English dub? If they’d cut the English dub entirely, do you think the game would appeal to a wider, predominantly English speaking audience?

Slow pacing. The team could have added waypoints and fast travel and removed the artificial barriers that slowed down story progression. Do you think removing the exploration elements that Shenmue is best known for from the game and cutting the play time of the game in half would have gone down well with the fan base?

 

[iknifaugood]

Were there never times when you found airing out the books in Shenmue 2 boring? What about having to drive a forklift around for a week in Shenmue 1?

Those are not examples of things that I personally find boring, but in terms of appealing to a wider audience, yes they should be cut (or at least framed differently). To me, having to kill a whole day and come back tomorrow for Charlie is far more boring than forklift driving.

I suppose my real issue here is that the story continues to move whilst completing these tasks in the first few games and the tasks are a little more focused whereas in Shenmue 3 it felt like they brought the story to a screeching halt whilst effectively telling the player to go grind money somewhere.

That I found it a little tedious isn’t necessarily my main issue, more that it felt like a very obvious way of padding the length of the game.

This is exactly what I meant and I'm pretty sure this is stuff that will irk most people.

I’d argue that Ryo’s growth as a person through his training as a martial artist is arguably the main element of Shenmue.

And how does S3 tell this story? Ryo wants to get revenge on Lan Di, gets his ass kicked by Lan Di, learns that Lan Di may have a more sympathetic past, and ends the game vowing revenge on Lan Di. The idea that nothing was meant to change and that Shenmue is this recurring formula of Ryo going to random Chinese villages and beating up their gangs while the CYM narrowly escape is not at all what the series presented itself as. At least not to me.

the locations in Shenmue 3 were perfectly in line with previous locations from the series.

Judging from your subsequent comments on this topic it seems like you're coming at it from the POV that this is what we should have expected, so it makes sense. The way Shenhua described Bailu Village in S2 did not lead me to believe there would be an arcade and a thriving economy with a $2000 bottle of wine for sale but to each his own.

I think ‘the fan base is upset’ is a huge over generalization here. Some of the fan base may be upset, but the reception might have been significantly worse if they’d made drastic changes to the formula.

Perhaps but perhaps not. I guess we'll never know. I will say that only some of the GoT and Star Wars fanbase are upset too...

But a lot of these plot lines still haven’t played out. We still need to visit Meng Cun and find out if Iwao really killed Sunming Zhao and we still need to find out exactly what the mirrors do, amongst other things.

In terms of new plot points, we need to find out who exactly is pulling Lan Di’s strings and discover what will happen between the warring factions of the Chi You Men. To suggest that there’s not enough intrigue for people to want the story to continue seems a little laughable with these things in mind.

What in S3 led you to the conclusion that someone is pulling Lan Di's strings? What led you to believe that there are warring factions of the CYM? Niao Sun (if that is her name) outright claims that she controls the CYM and she has the Phoenix Mirror; all signs point to Lan Di being on his own to me. No, concept art from 20 years ago about the 4 leaders doesn't mean that they were present or even hinted at in S3.

In terms of intrigue for the sequel? Most of that is stuff that's still been set up from the previous 2 entries. Want proof? Where are all the theory threads about all the cool plot developments in S3?

My original point remains though, that most reviewers criticized elements of the game which have been prevalent within the series since its first game and a better story would have done little to dispel these criticisms. Of course, the obvious argument here is that addressing the criticisms from the first few games rather than embracing them should possibly have been on Yu’s to do list, but that’s a different conversation.

That's my argument, though. Reviews have been claiming that the game is basically a 20 year old DC game for fans of the series only and awarding it 6-7/10 as a sort of backhanded compliment at best. RE2 used to be fixed camera but they updated it for the remake, FF7 used to be turn based but they updated it for the remake. You think those fans weren't upset? Who cares? They're appealing to a wider, different audience, 20 years later.

I’m really not sure how you can compare the technical aspects of the combat system to a story beat which required the character to grind and expect me to take you seriously.

The combat system likely ate up a huge chunk of the team’s budget and making further improvements to it would have lead to compromises needing to have been made in other areas of the game (smaller environments, sacrificing the English dub, lower graphical fidelity, etc) whilst forcing the player to grind to progress the story served as a way of padding the length of the game and probably cost them absolutely nothing.

Removing the need to buy the wine would have lead to a shorter game whilst providing no additional budget or resources to improve the combat system.

I think you might be confusing what I was talking about or I just didn't articulate it properly. My point was that after 20 years, S3 needed to put its best foot forward which (imo) is not having money grinding quests and a combat system that was this compromised, considering it was Shenmue's signature gameplay feature. I wasn't trying to conflate the two.

Whilst Shenmue 3 may not be the best example of Yu’s auteurism, that it’s seen by most reviewers and a lot of fans as being a true sequel to Shenmue 2, suggests that Yu and his team at least got some things right.

Again, I don't think that reviewers are being kind when they say that S3 plays like a 20 year old DC game that earns a 6/10.

In my opinion, being grateful to the fan base who effectively allowed your dream to continue and making compromises to your vision in an attempt to please them and show your gratitude isn’t something that should be criticized, but to each their own.

I think that being grateful and allowing them to dictate the game design are two completely different things. I understand why he did what he did, I can even respect him for it, I simply think it was the wrong choice. Fans don't know what they want, you have to show them.

How exactly could Yu have made Shenmue more appealing to a wider audience without fundamentally changing the essence of the series and upsetting some of the fans that have supported him for nearly two decades?

By making a better game. I know that sounds dickish but that's just the way I see it; I don't think S3 is a very good game and imo he did change the series fundamentally for the worse. If S3 had S1 and 2's mechanics (no stamina, better combat, normal gambling etc.) and everything else was the same, that alone would make it a better game.

Poor graphics. The team could have allocated more of the budget to the environments of the game, but this would have lead to compromises being made elsewhere. Would you have been happy if they’d spent less on developing the combat system in order to improve the graphics?

I don't personally have a problem with this but maybe Suzuki shouldn't have let the realistic models and the Street Fighter models coexist? That seems to be the most common criticism against the visuals. I actually think that S3 shot for too much graphical fidelity and it wound up working against them. Many games opt for lower graphical fidelity (Persona, Zelda-- granted those are more stylized) and I haven't seen reviews/wider audiences hold it against them.

Poor dialogue. The team could have replaced the voice actors with more talented actors and hired a better in studio director. Do you think the fan base would have been happy if Corey had been replaced and cuts had been made to other areas of the game to cover the increased cost of the English dub? If they’d cut the English dub entirely, do you think the game would appeal to a wider, predominantly English speaking audience?

This is actually a really fair point. Personally, I would have preferred no voice acting at all except for important cutscenes given the budget restrictions. VO is incredibly expensive and many AAA games still lack full VO (Yakuza, Persona, Zelda etc.). The poor dialogue implementation (awkward pauses, fades etc.) are largely a result of this.

Slow pacing. The team could have added waypoints and fast travel and removed the artificial barriers that slowed down story progression. Do you think removing the exploration elements that Shenmue is best known for from the game and cutting the play time of the game in half would have gone down well with the fan base?

Couple things:

1. The main reason for the slow pacing is poor storytelling. S3 simply does not tell a compelling story and tells it poorly. If the story was presented with a sense of urgency and proper stakes and we were learning about the villains and the world (seriously, we were in Bailu Village and learned basically nothing about the Shenmue tree, the poem, phantom river stone, and Iwao's time there) then the pacing would have been much more acceptable. The fact that I knew my time was being wasted with leads that were going nowhere is a pretty big issue imo.

2. Do you think removing the exploration combat elements that Shenmue is best known for from the game and cutting the play time of the game in half doubling the playtime with filler content would have gone down well with the fan base?

Many of your arguments stem from the fact that, yes, it's very hard to make a Shenmue game, especially on a tight budget. I would have gladly taken no VO, fewer minigames, and poorer graphics if it meant we got an exciting story, great combat, and memorable characters and I happen to think that wider audiences and fans alike would've respected that as well. Sacrifices are going to have to made and if what you're saying is that S4 will need to be similarly compromised by VO, minigames, and storytelling because that's just what the fans expect then they should expect an even poorer reception for it.