Shenmue 3 was perhaps more about training and Ryo’s growth as a martial artist than any other Shenmue game to date.
Look, you seem to be pretty satisfied with the game and I'm not trying to convince you to dislike it, but this has come up a lot and it's simply not true. Shenmue 3 is not about Ryo training. Ryo needs to learn two bizarrely similar moves to defeat two bizarrely similar opponents who he is otherwise perfectly capable of taking in a fight, which runs counter to how martial arts has been portrayed in the series thus far as well as how it works in real life. That both of these quests require Ryo to defeat certain members at the dojo doesn't make the story any more about Ryo training than it makes it about Ryo having to earn money and learning the value of a hard day's work (because, lest we forget, he also needs to earn money as part of those quests). Shenmue 2 saw Xiuying take Ryo under her wing and actually
train him for days when his only opponent was Lan Di; Ryo wouldn't have even bothered to learn a move in Bailu Village if the Mongolian wasn't there. I'm sorry but that is not a story "about" training. The only reason you're giving the game so much credit in this regard is because you know that's what the story
should be about at this point.
The game begins by showing the player that in spite of his growth throughout the first few games, Ryo still has a lot to learn as a martial artist and this encourages the player to train. It ending the way it does further emphasizes this point.
How? Because Ryo immediately wants a rematch that he is (presumably) going to lose again?
Mastery of an art does not come easily and defeating some thugs and training for a few hours a day over the course of a month isn’t enough to achieve the level of mastery that Ryo needs to achieve his goal. His persistence in spite of his own shortcomings demonstrates the strength of his desire for revenge and to an extent, shows us that he remains reckless even after those who’ve trained him in the past have tried to make him see the foolishness of blindly following the path that his lust for revenge is taking him down.
Whilst I had my fair share of issues with the storytelling and character development in Shenmue 3, I have very few when it comes to Ryo’s character arc and, as the protagonist of the story, I see his as the most important.
I didn't find any of this compelling. When I heard the inner monologues, I was incredibly confused. Why does Ryo think Lan Di would run? Does he seriously think he's going to beat him? Ryo just came across as dumb, rather than overconfident or blinded by revenge, to me. Furthermore, how much more time do you think the Shenmue story is going to take place over? Suzuki said 4-5 games total; that doesn't leave a ton of time for Ryo to up his game and he's presumably pretty close to the Cliff Temple for round 2.
Thriving economy? If by this you mean they have shops and currency, then yes. What exactly were you expecting? The game is set in the late 80’s and so to see currency, games and alcohol shouldn’t come as a big surprise.
I was expecting what Shenhua described in S2, when she ventured on a 2 day journey for supplies-- so at the very least, not a Kwik-E-Mart. Also, Bailu Village is a fictional martial arts village where fictional stone is carved into magic mirrors; it can be almost anything, but most of all I was expecting it to feel new and different.
Furthermore, you complain about Yu and his team not making changes to make the game appeal to a wider audience, but do you think a smaller Bailu village with no side activities would have achieved this goal?
Bailu Village isn't a great place to start to be sure, but surely more information on why these people recite a poem about Ryo and Shenhua's destined meeting would've gone a long way toward making the story feel bigger and learning more about Ryo's dad would've gone a long way toward catching new players up on the story. I'm not advocating for no side activities, just more good stuff.
Hmm. Perhaps it was one of the four leaders trying and failing to burn one of the other leaders alive during the game’s climax. Unless you’re expecting Lan Di to just role over and not respond to Niao Sun’s treason, I think it’s fairly safe to assume there will be some form of internal conflict within the Chi You Men moving forwards. Either way, I’m intrigued to find out.
Lan Di having one mirror and Niao Sun having the other is indeed cool, but I wish I knew what either of them wanted it for (or what Niao Sun's name is). I'm also confused about what's at the Cliff Temple; it's where the mirrors used to be stored but is it also where the treasure is?
The four leaders being absent from S3 leads me to believe that the concept may have been cut, or at least that option is open if Suzuki needs to wrap it up in 4.
That Lan Di was taken and raised by the Chi You Men suggests to me that someone (most likely the main leader of the organization) is manipulating Lan Di. If this is true, it opens the door to many possibilities, which again, creates intrigue.
I was under the impression that whoever raised him had either died or perhaps Lan Di killed him since, again, Niao Sun declares herself leader of the CYM after killing only Lan Di. I guess we'll have to wait and see if/when S4 comes out.
Whether or not plot threads began in earlier games is irrelevant to your argument that players wouldn’t be intrigued about the future of the series after playing through the third game. We still need answers to a lot of questions and whether or not people enjoyed the third game doesn’t change the fact that these questions remain unanswered.
I didn't say they wouldn't be interested after playing the third game, just that S3 didn't add much to set it up. I don't like S3 and I still want to play S4, so I'm not sure where you're getting this.
Intentionally making changes that you know will likely piss off the fan base (who, remember, are effectively paying for development of the game) in order to court an audience who have taken pleasure in mocking your work is a terrible idea.
You're right, the RE2 and FF7 remakes are famously seen as worse than the originals for making improvements. Again, I'm not of the mind that the gaming media and wider audiences were always going to make fun of S3; S3 opens itself up to being made fun of by doing a lot of stupid things that I would rather it didn't do. Apart from this forum, I'm the easiest lay for Shenmue: S3 could be exactly the same but if the story was better I probably would've loved it, but that doesn't mean that I can't see the forest for the trees. I
want the series to be successful so that the series can continue, and that means expanding the audience-- that doesn't mean making a game the fans will hate (though, again, plenty of fans
do, in fact, hate S3) but it also doesn't mean making a game that panders exclusively to them either.
To circle all the way back to the topic of this thread (and one in which you and I agree, I think): if S3 came out and we don't get S4 because of its failure, then I would rather the series ended with S2.
That you criticize Yu for making minor changes to his vision to please the fans but then go ahead and suggest that he tears up his plans completely to try to attract a wider audience is incredibly hypocritical.
WHAT?! When did I call for him to "tear up his plans"? Sure, if his plans were having
two grinding for money quests, then yes, he should tear them up and maybe I just won't like Shenmue going forward. But to suggest that S3 did itself no favors by being so alienating that a good chunk of the existing (tiny) fanbase doesn't like it shouldn't be a controversial thing to say.
I might be paraphrasing a little as I can’t be bothered to go back and find your original quote, but it read something along the lines of ‘Yu shouldn’t have focused on adding a story beat that required you to buy whine while minimizing the combat.’, which to me suggests that you see this as a one or the other situation. As per my previous responses, removing the need to grind would not have lead to more resources to improve the combat system.
I mean, if you're not even going to bother to read the correct quote or respond to my clarification, then I'm not sure why you're bothering to even respond. For the record, no, I was not suggesting that removing filler content would have freed up resources for the combat system.
More nonsense. Fan’s didn’t dictate anything.
Why is there a forklift job in the game?
Yu made a game that he thought fans would like. Whether or not he succeeded is debatable, but to suggests that fans don’t know what they want is a ridiculous suggestion. I know from our discussions that you wanted a more in depth fighting system and a more expansive story, for example.
What is meant by "fans don't know what they want" is that fans can't actually create a sequel because they don't know what the original vision was, what new things were coming; they only know what's important to them. Not that they don't know what they like. I, par example, have no idea where the story to Shenmue is going, so I would have no idea how to begin writing Shenmue 4 and would probably do a horrible job. It's Suzuki's thing, he shouldn't be listening to the fans
at all.