What a disappointment

[HazukiFCBR]

Budgiecat, actually i would have no complaints at all, with the lack of story, if, they got everything you post, right. This not the case. We already did talk to Shenhua back in Shenmue 2. The first time i played, i took the time to talk as much as possible. The Shenhua talk is empty and worthless in Shenmue 3. They did not became closer. On the contrary. Shenhua even kinda sang for Ryo. Shenhua is more flashed out in Shenmue 2, than she is in Shenmue 3. I can't accept that. Not while we have on the other hand, a surprisingly big rural area and an empty and vast bigger city than Shenmue 2's Hong Kong or Kowloon. If I did manager to plan the scope, I would go for less moves and moves skill books, less capsule toys, less shops, smaller Choubu to begin with. Try to make a 10 to 15 hours game. 50% story and cut scenes. 10% qte and qtes sequences. 20% the free battle/training session and 20% for the rest, side quests, jobs and the meaningless mini games. They could do it. Even with the bad plot. Or a lack of revelation. I know it was possible. But for me, they got wrong.

 

[Paulisdead18]

"JM: I play games to do things I can't do in real life. Do you think games have become too real? If you were to do Shenmue 3, for example, would you take the same approach and make it super realistic, or would you take a different approach?

YS: The concept for Shenmue 3 already exists, so... [Laughs] The world of Shenmue 1 and 2 expanded outward. So, for example, in the original games, of all the data used for dialogue in the game, the main characters' dialogue was about 20%. The remaining 80% was dialogue by characters other than the two main characters.

But Shenmue 3 doesn't expand outward, but inward. A lot of the dialogue is used for the main character and especially dialogue with Shenhua. They talk about a lot of different, deeper things. For example, and I can't say too much, but here's an example.

This is not actually in the game, but as an example to give you an idea of what I mean by deeper dialogue, when Shenhua and Ryo are at home, Shenhua will ask Ryo if he would like to drink tea or coffee and the player will select one or the other. Or, Shenhua will ask Ryo a hypothetical question like: "There are four animals; a monkey, cat, dog and bird. You are crossing the river but you need to leave one behind. Which one will you leave behind?" And the player has to choose one. Shenhua will ask lots and lots of questions like these and the answers will get stored in the game and affect the outcome of the player's relationship with other characters. It's like a personality test. For example, the person who leaves behind the monkey is the type of person who leaves their wife.

TH: That's scary. [Laughs]

JM: So it's more organic, and very contextual. Personally, I would leave the bird behind. The bird can fly across the river.

YS: It's very deep. I think it will be very interesting if it happens." - 2010 interview

https://archive.ph/20160622171916/http://www.1up.com/features/disappearance-suzuki-part-2#selection-753.0-791.67

Why am I posting this to you? Because it means since 2010 I knew what to expect from this game as it was already explained here in this interview.
This was always going to be more of a personal delve into the relationship of Ryo and Shenhua. The end of Shenmue 2 perceived this.

A lot of people wanted this game to show a vastly more 'outward' advancement of the plot but he explained nine years ago it wouldn't be. Some people even wanted this game to wrap the entire story up but we knew it wasn't going to do that either.

I really just wish they continued this in Niaowu, i missed having that connection with Shenhua every night, reflecting on the past and present. You get those little balcony scenes instead, which sometimes aren't about anything new or interesting, just things like "I heard you can get a part-time job here, Ryo" or "Yeah this city is really big". I wish they would have let you continue those choice based conversations instead of switching to that much more limited interaction.

 

[Machsi]

"JM: I play games to do things I can't do in real life. Do you think games have become too real? If you were to do Shenmue 3, for example, would you take the same approach and make it super realistic, or would you take a different approach?

YS: The concept for Shenmue 3 already exists, so... [Laughs] The world of Shenmue 1 and 2 expanded outward. So, for example, in the original games, of all the data used for dialogue in the game, the main characters' dialogue was about 20%. The remaining 80% was dialogue by characters other than the two main characters.

But Shenmue 3 doesn't expand outward, but inward. A lot of the dialogue is used for the main character and especially dialogue with Shenhua. They talk about a lot of different, deeper things. For example, and I can't say too much, but here's an example.

This is not actually in the game, but as an example to give you an idea of what I mean by deeper dialogue, when Shenhua and Ryo are at home, Shenhua will ask Ryo if he would like to drink tea or coffee and the player will select one or the other. Or, Shenhua will ask Ryo a hypothetical question like: "There are four animals; a monkey, cat, dog and bird. You are crossing the river but you need to leave one behind. Which one will you leave behind?" And the player has to choose one. Shenhua will ask lots and lots of questions like these and the answers will get stored in the game and affect the outcome of the player's relationship with other characters. It's like a personality test. For example, the person who leaves behind the monkey is the type of person who leaves their wife.

TH: That's scary. [Laughs]

JM: So it's more organic, and very contextual. Personally, I would leave the bird behind. The bird can fly across the river.

YS: It's very deep. I think it will be very interesting if it happens." - 2010 interview

https://archive.ph/20160622171916/http://www.1up.com/features/disappearance-suzuki-part-2#selection-753.0-791.67

Why am I posting this to you? Because it means since 2010 I knew what to expect from this game as it was already explained here in this interview.
This was always going to be more of a personal delve into the relationship of Ryo and Shenhua. The end of Shenmue 2 perceived this.

A lot of people wanted this game to show a vastly more 'outward' advancement of the plot but he explained nine years ago it wouldn't be. Some people even wanted this game to wrap the entire story up but we knew it wasn't going to do that either.

Thank you for sharing that gem interview. Basically Yu Suzuki already had in mind that Shenmue 3 wouldn’t really “expand outward” i.e. the plot doesn’t excel too much. I hope Shenmue 4 will accomplish this

 

[Budgiecat]

I really just wish they continued this in Niaowu, i missed having that connection with Shenhua every night, reflecting on the past and present. You get those little balcony scenes instead, which sometimes aren't about anything new or interesting, just things like "I heard you can get a part-time job here, Ryo" or "Yeah this city is really big". I wish they would have let you continue those choice based conversations instead of switching to that much more limited interaction.

yeah I'll agree on that. It did seem like kinda of an odd shift of pace for their convos (aside from the occasional but very short hotel balcony convos and plot specific front hotel lobby convos)

 

[Budgiecat]

Budgiecat, actually i would have no complaints at all, with the lack of story, if, they got everything you post, right. This not the case. We already did talk to Shenhua back in Shenmue 2. The first time i played, i took the time to talk as much as possible. The Shenhua talk is empty and worthless in Shenmue 3. They did not became closer. On the contrary. Shenhua even kinda sang for Ryo. Shenhua is more fleshed out in Shenmue 2, than she is in Shenmue 3. I can't accept that. Not while we have on the other hand, a surprisingly big rural area and an empty and vast bigger city than Shenmue 2's Hong Kong or Kowloon. If I did manager to plan the scope, I would go for less moves and moves skill books, less capsule toys, less shops, smaller Choubu to begin with. Try to make a 10 to 15 hours game. 50% story and cut scenes. 10% qte and qtes sequences. 20% the free battle/training session and 20% for the rest, side quests, jobs and the meaningless mini games. They could do it. Even with the bad plot. Or a lack of revelation. I know it was possible. But for me, they got wrong.

Hmm

Other than the distance of convos that was pulled back from them once they reached Niaowu, I don't particularly agree with any of what you just said here no offense. The Bailu convos Shenhua and Ryo had at her house definitely opened up way more of who both are as people and what they stood for, liked, didnt like, and their past and their ambitions. I felt they bonded way more here than towards the end of Shenmue 2.

Ryo seemed way more personable and inviting in this than the previous games. He even laughed finally! To me this was character development. They DID become closer. Shenhua IS more fleshed out here than at the end of Shenmue 3.
And no, Bailu does not seem 'bigger than Kowloon'. Its not supposed to be.

You forget the limitations of the Dreamcast.

Had SEGA waited just ONE more year to release that console (but couldnt because of how much the Saturn was financially draining them), then the manufacturing costs for DVD technology (which DID exist in 1998 by the way, but was hella expensive developer cost wise), then SEGA could have made the Dreamcast running on DVD's which would have avoided the 'easy piracy' problem which they tried to avoid but failed by making proprietary GD-ROMS, and thus, Kowloon would have been able to have been much bigger.

Why then, would a game made almost 20 years later, subject itself to those CD space-like limitations?

If Kowloon was made in today's gaming climate under Yu, then it and Abderdeen would be four times the size of how they were on the Dreamcast.

Unless super linear RE style game, most gamers scoff at AAA games being 10 to 15 hour affairs these days if its a game geared to be a semi open world affair, so it woulda been ripped apart if done that way especially after waiting 20 years.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

Hmm

Other than the distance of convos that was pulled back from them once they reached Niaowu, I don't particularly agree with any of what you just said here no offense. The Bailu convos Shenhua and Ryo had at her house definitely opened up way more of who both are as people and what they stood for, liked, didnt like, and their past and their ambitions. I felt they bonded way more here than towards the end of Shenmue 2.

Ryo seemed way more personable and inviting in this than the previous games. He even laughed finally! To me this was character development. They DID become closer. Shenhua IS more fleshed out here than at the end of Shenmue 3.
And no, Bailu does not seem 'bigger than Kowloon'. Its not supposed to be.

You forget the limitations of the Dreamcast.

Had SEGA waited just ONE more year to release that console (but couldnt because of how much the Saturn was financially draining them), then the manufacturing costs for DVD technology (which DID exist in 1998 by the way, but was hella expensive developer cost wise), then SEGA could have made the Dreamcast running on DVD's which would have avoided the 'easy piracy' problem which they tried to avoid but failed by making proprietary GD-ROMS, and thus, Kowloon would have been able to have been much bigger.

Why then, would a game made almost 20 years later, subject itself to those CD space-like limitations?

If Kowloon was made in today's gaming climate under Yu, then it and Abderdeen would be four times the size of how they were on the Dreamcast.

Unless super linear RE style game, most gamers scoff at AAA games being 10 to 15 hour affairs these days if its a game geared to be a semi open world affair, so it woulda been ripped apart if done that way especially after waiting 20 years.

No offense at all dude. My point is, we did that in Shenmue 2. We got the convo sellection. Things such as Stone Lions and "lets see the water fall", were there. I really can't see a bond in Shenmue 3, just with convos. Even Fang Mei Xun has cutscenes wich warps the hole relationship. We got nothing with Shenhua. Not a dinner. Not a side quest. We got faceoff though. I'm not playing the hard to pleased here...or just a hater. There's no game i love more, than this fucking cursed game.
But, being honest, i lost nearly all my hope to see this game become a thing. Not a main stream one, Shenmue would never achieve that. Don't believe in Sega getting Shenmue IV done. Even another succesfull KS campaign seens really really unlikely. And that really brings me the hell down.

 

[Tomato Convenience Store]

I still don't think what we got in this story was planned, and I don't think it's as easy as saying "we would've gotten the full story if Yu traded 1 minigame and 100m of space in the environment every time he needed 10 cutscenes", and etc.

My tl;dr "thoughts on why" that I wanted to put out there again (that has grown a bit since I started writing this and getting into literal "tl,dr" territory, but whatever!):

• YsNet had to staff up to support this game. This alone could take 1-2 years to get the proper candidates and it's very possible the team was not able to staff up quickly enough, putting them behind schedule from the beginning.
• A publisher was secured on August 2017, before then it was probably much more difficult to recruit candidates and make deals with outsourcing partners. Even then those things wouldn't happen instantaneously.
• The foundational systems and tech need to be worked out before custom one-off content like cinematics and set-pieces, which are animation intensive. Things like player movement and animation sets, player interactions and investigations, dialog system, dialog animation system and auto lip sync, combat system and animations, camera systems, QTE systems, "Town" NPCs and routine systems, day night system, weather system, etc.
• It's very possible the growing pains of UE4 were bigger than anticipated, causing the things listed above to take more time than originally planned, putting the team even further behind schedule.
• While cutscenes wouldn't be created only at the very end of development, the implementation work will mostly be done once there's a better sense of what's going to be in the final game and where those cutscenes could occur (for example, if a cutscene was supposed to take place in Baisha and got moved to Niaowu since Baisha was cut, or move from one location of Niaowu to another, or if a character who was supposed to be in a scene is entirely cut from the game).
• It looks like a bunch of animation was outsourced, meaning they wouldn't want to spend money to have them work on cutscenes until they were ready (financially and creatively) to pay for the work. Even if done by staff, there's only a certain amount of resources to go around.
• How the story was presented just felt like a lot of cutscenes were cut from the game, and in many cases simplified.
• This makes sense to me because we only get 1 or 2 substantial cutscenes with characters like Sun, Shiling, Bei, Hsu, and Li Feng. Essentially, the moment you meet, and 1 or 2 brief scenes afterwards. Even some story moments feel truncated (for example, going from Bailu to Niaowu, and Niaowu to the boat, etc).

I was reading the story ideas from this post https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/cut-content-list.2291/post-76909 . It just really feels to me like the story we got in Shenmue 3 wasn't Yu Suzuki going "lolz fuck those guys", but that they just didn't have the resources to power through to get it all into the game on time. It's also why I believe a significant delay (6+ months at least) could have gotten a lot more story content into the game. That wasn't happening given the budget of the game and since backers will expect it sooner than later.

The reason I don't agree with the sentiment "smaller locations, fewer minigames, less Shenhua dialogue (you monster! ) = more story and cutscenes" is that game developers aren't this "do it all" resource, you have different departments and specializations (at least, for a very simple high level argument). There's only a certain amount of staff that can be hired in each department. And to reiterate, the reason why cutscenes and set-pieces will come later is because it's all custom one-off work, so animators are better served working on things like the main character move sets and fighting animations earlier on. I like this game development overview in this article (yeah yeah, Kotaku, haha) https://kotaku.com/five-things-i-didn-t-get-about-making-video-games-unti-1687510871

So my reasons for optimism that more story elements can be in place for Shenmue 4 is that a lot of this legwork has been completed for Shenmue 3 (of course I would imagine they'll brush up on the systems and all that). They built their team, they built their tech and went through their growing pains, and they have their working relationship with external partners.

That's not a guarantee that Shenmue 4 will be a masterpiece, but I'm just trying to say it seems to me that Yu Suzuki was doing his best to deliver on everything with Shenmue 3 and he didn't cut story elements out of contempt for his fans, haha. I get it, as a player who was anticipating this story for 18 years there's the thought of "I wanted the thing and didn't get the thing! They should have done the thing!" I'm just saying it's not so simple, especially in this case and all of the factors involved.

 

[hyo_razuki]

The storytelling in this game is so bad and there's just so many plot holes and downright bizarre behavior from the characters, it's insane.

Ryo gets handed a move book with his father's name on it. He just makes a surprised face and walks away. Doesn't even bother asking about it (Huaxiao Temple).

Shenhua doesn't even bother talking to her dad after rescuing him from a supposedly dangerous gang.

Ryo and Ren are supposed to fight the Red Snakes and their leader in the gang's headquarters. They find Niao Sun sitting in there alone. She says "I own this place so I told them to leave." and Ryo and Ren basically go "Alright, whatever." and get out of there.

Look, these are just two or three examples of horrible writing and plot holes in this game. I get they had budget issues but those are not an excuse for shitty writing. If they spent their time and money on the wrong things, then that means the project was mismanaged.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

I still don't think what we got in this story was planned, and I don't think it's as easy as saying "we would've gotten the full story if Yu traded 1 minigame and 100m of space in the environment every time he needed 10 cutscenes", and etc.

My tl;dr "thoughts on why" that I wanted to put out there again (that has grown a bit since I started writing this and getting into literal "tl,dr" territory, but whatever!):

• YsNet had to staff up to support this game. This alone could take 1-2 years to get the proper candidates and it's very possible the team was not able to staff up quickly enough, putting them behind schedule from the beginning.
• A publisher was secured on August 2017, before then it was probably much more difficult to recruit candidates and make deals with outsourcing partners. Even then those things wouldn't happen instantaneously.
• The foundational systems and tech need to be worked out before custom one-off content like cinematics and set-pieces, which are animation intensive. Things like player movement and animation sets, player interactions and investigations, dialog system, dialog animation system and auto lip sync, combat system and animations, camera systems, QTE systems, "Town" NPCs and routine systems, day night system, weather system, etc.
• It's very possible the growing pains of UE4 were bigger than anticipated, causing the things listed above to take more time than originally planned, putting the team even further behind schedule.
• While cutscenes wouldn't be created only at the very end of development, the implementation work will mostly be done once there's a better sense of what's going to be in the final game and where those cutscenes could occur (for example, if a cutscene was supposed to take place in Baisha and got moved to Niaowu since Baisha was cut, or move from one location of Niaowu to another, or if a character who was supposed to be in a scene is entirely cut from the game).
• It looks like a bunch of animation was outsourced, meaning they wouldn't want to spend money to have them work on cutscenes until they were ready (financially and creatively) to pay for the work. Even if done by staff, there's only a certain amount of resources to go around.
• How the story was presented just felt like a lot of cutscenes were cut from the game, and in many cases simplified.
• This makes sense to me because we only get 1 or 2 substantial cutscenes with characters like Sun, Shiling, Bei, Hsu, and Li Feng. Essentially, the moment you meet, and 1 or 2 brief scenes afterwards. Even some story moments feel truncated (for example, going from Bailu to Niaowu, and Niaowu to the boat, etc).

I was reading the story ideas from this post https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/cut-content-list.2291/post-76909 . It just really feels to me like the story we got in Shenmue 3 wasn't Yu Suzuki going "lolz fuck those guys", but that they just didn't have the resources to power through to get it all into the game on time. It's also why I believe a significant delay (6+ months at least) could have gotten a lot more story content into the game. That wasn't happening given the budget of the game and since backers will expect it sooner than later.

The reason I don't agree with the sentiment "smaller locations, fewer minigames, less Shenhua dialogue (you monster! ) = more story and cutscenes" is that game developers aren't this "do it all" resource, you have different departments and specializations (at least, for a very simple high level argument). There's only a certain amount of staff that can be hired in each department. And to reiterate, the reason why cutscenes and set-pieces will come later is because it's all custom one-off work, so animators are better served working on things like the main character move sets and fighting animations earlier on. I like this game development overview in this article (yeah yeah, Kotaku, haha) https://kotaku.com/five-things-i-didn-t-get-about-making-video-games-unti-1687510871

So my reasons for optimism that more story elements can be in place for Shenmue 4 is that a lot of this legwork has been completed for Shenmue 3 (of course I would imagine they'll brush up on the systems and all that). They built their team, they built their tech and went through their growing pains, and they have their working relationship with external partners.

That's not a guarantee that Shenmue 4 will be a masterpiece, but I'm just trying to say it seems to me that Yu Suzuki was doing his best to deliver on everything with Shenmue 3 and he didn't cut story elements out of contempt for his fans, haha. I get it, as a player who was anticipating this story for 18 years there's the thought of "I wanted the thing and didn't get the thing! They should have done the thing!" I'm just saying it's not so simple, especially in this case and all of the factors involved.

Can't say i agree. Notably, they spent time and resources on the economic, mini games, those shops, the jobs and 100 moves (wich we don't use 10). I would be ok with all that if, and only if, the story was in a good and had a climax momentun. Shenmue 3 was a joke from the cinematic fanservice pov. Maybe just those fights scenes with Master Bei really comes closer of what this game has the best to offer. Feels like they gave 10% ratio on story and character developement and 90% for the gameplay. I don't mean we should have had a MGV4 level of cinematics. But, Shenmue's story, maybe is the one thing thats loved by the majority of fans and critics. For me, Shenmue 2 would be a better game, if it hade better gameplay solutions, not story retcons and such. I'm far off to think Shenmue 2 is a perfect game, but its storytelling was groundbreaking at the time. They could have done something at least close to that even with a lower budget. As you said, if they did all this intentionaly hoping fans and everyone else would like and get behind the game building up a hype for ShenIV, was a boldly decision. I can't say for sure if this worked. Maybe my expectations was way higher than what i got. I really hope Yu can make another game.

 

[spud1897]

Can't say i agree. Notably, they spent time and resources on the economic, mini games, those shops, the jobs and 100 moves (wich we don't use 10). I would be ok with all that if, and only if, the story was in a good and had a climax momentun. Shenmue 3 was a joke from the cinematic fanservice pov. Maybe just those fights scenes with Master Bei really comes closer of what this game has the best to offer. Feels like they gave 10% ratio on story and character developement and 90% for the gameplay. I don't mean we should have had a MGV4 level of cinematics. But, Shenmue's story, maybe is the one thing thats loved by the majority of fans and critics. For me, Shenmue 2 would be a better game, if it hade better gameplay solutions, not story retcons and such. I'm far off to think Shenmue 2 is a perfect game, but its storytelling was groundbreaking at the time. They could have done something at least close to that even with a lower budget. As you said, if they did all this intentionaly hoping fans and everyone else would like and get behind the game building up a hype for ShenIV, was a boldly decision. I can't say for sure if this worked. Maybe my expectations was way higher than what i got. I really hope Yu can make another game.

I think your last line summed everything up. It's about expectations, some were clearly well ott and others lowballed it and were more than happt. Interviews from 2010 have been quoted around story etc so I won't go over them but for me it's looking like they're gearing up for an epic in Shenmue 4, even though elements of 3 were rushed. Theres lots to come.

My advice is simple, if you want a 4th game get out there and show that support on social media. Let them know we want it.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

I think your last line summed everything up. It's about expectations, some were clearly well ott and others lowballed it and were more than happt. Interviews from 2010 have been quoted around story etc so I won't go over them but for me it's looking like they're gearing up for an epic in Shenmue 4, even though elements of 3 were rushed. Theres lots to come.

My advice is simple, if you want a 4th game get out there and show that support on social media. Let them know we want it.

Actually, i've been extremaly caution about criticizing this game on other medias. Trying to keep my concerns here. Its like a outburst. Otherwise i'll die.

 

[spud1897]

Actually, i've been extremaly caution about criticizing this game on other medias. Trying to keep my concerns here. Its like a outburst. Otherwise i'll die.

I think you've misinterpreted what I meant, I'm not saying you have. However your point is exactly what I'm getting at. Via social media we go hard on the good stuff

 

[iknifaugood]

The reason I don't agree with the sentiment "smaller locations, fewer minigames, less Shenhua dialogue (you monster! ) = more story and cutscenes" is that game developers aren't this "do it all" resource, you have different departments and specializations (at least, for a very simple high level argument). There's only a certain amount of staff that can be hired in each department.

This is partially true, however a big part of it comes down to planning. The one advantage that Shenmue 3 had (and one of the big draws for a lot of fans), was that the story was planned out. If that was the case then very early in development it would have been decided what the big story sequences were, what information needed to be conveyed, and what was possible to cut. You can see footage from 2017 that shows essentially final art cutscene animations so they clearly had an idea of what they needed. And evidently what they needed was Ryo chasing low level thugs and booty bumping two body builders.

So my reasons for optimism that more story elements can be in place for Shenmue 4 is that a lot of this legwork has been completed for Shenmue 3 (of course I would imagine they'll brush up on the systems and all that). They built their team, they built their tech and went through their growing pains, and they have their working relationship with external partners.

This depends. As a UE4 developer I can say that you don't necessarily own all the tech you produce during a partnership. It may very well be that whatever code was supplied by DS is owned by them and if they decide it's not worth it to partner for a sequel, YS may have to redo that work. It gets extremely messy the more companies get involved in a project. But yes, in terms of art assets they are definitely way ahead.

I'm just trying to say it seems to me that Yu Suzuki was doing his best to deliver on everything with Shenmue 3 and he didn't cut story elements out of contempt for his fans, haha.

I don't think it was out of contempt. I think it indicates either poor planning/management, or the foolish belief that S3 was going to sell like gangbusters, or that Suzuki just doesn't have the goods and the story isn't as interesting as I thought it was.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

I think you've misinterpreted what I meant, I'm not saying you have. However your point is exactly what I'm getting at. Via social media we go hard on the good stuff

Not at all. A "as a matter of fact" at the begining of the sentence would be better. I'm doing this, even before you said. Thats was all. Agreed on that. If we do want this series to go, we need to go hard on the good stuff.

 

[Budgiecat]

Can't say i agree. Notably, they spent time and resources on the economic, mini games, those shops, the jobs and 100 moves (wich we don't use 10). I would be ok with all that if, and only if, the story was in a good and had a climax momentun. Shenmue 3 was a joke from the cinematic fanservice pov. Maybe just those fights scenes with Master Bei really comes closer of what this game has the best to offer. Feels like they gave 10% ratio on story and character developement and 90% for the gameplay. I don't mean we should have had a MGV4 level of cinematics. But, Shenmue's story, maybe is the one thing thats loved by the majority of fans and critics. For me, Shenmue 2 would be a better game, if it hade better gameplay solutions, not story retcons and such. I'm far off to think Shenmue 2 is a perfect game, but its storytelling was groundbreaking at the time. They could have done something at least close to that even with a lower budget. As you said, if they did all this intentionaly hoping fans and everyone else would like and get behind the game building up a hype for ShenIV, was a boldly decision. I can't say for sure if this worked. Maybe my expectations was way higher than what i got. I really hope Yu can make another game.

time constraints and money. Plus I dont think Deep Silver is that good of a company compared to Sega and how they can prioritize proper scheduling and management. Nagoshi, (Yakuza) was one of the key players in Shenmue in terms of keeping that game on a consistent and effective schedule despite Suzuki's insatiable drive for perfection and detail. Sega is more experienced.

 

[Tomato Convenience Store]

This is partially true, however a big part of it comes down to planning. The one advantage that Shenmue 3 had (and one of the big draws for a lot of fans), was that the story was planned out. If that was the case then very early in development it would have been decided what the big story sequences were, what information needed to be conveyed, and what was possible to cut. You can see footage from 2017 that shows essentially final art cutscene animations so they clearly had an idea of what they needed. And evidently what they needed was Ryo chasing low level thugs and booty bumping two body builders.

Firstly, thanks for the well thought out responses all-around. Even with storyboards, cutscenes stubbed in, the main plot outline, etc, plans can change during development. That's not to say that there weren't other cutscenes that were set and completed sooner, knowing that they weren't on the chopping block or had any chance of changing.

When looking at the credited staff, it looks like the core dev team was spread pretty evenly across all disciplines. That's why I mentioned that there are only so many folks that can get hired per department, and every single one was needed and maybe at most you can trade 1 designer or programmer spot for 1 animator or "cinematic designer", which isn't enough. A lot of the art and animation needs were outsourced to make up for that "manpower" deficit. But this is essentially turning a faucet on and off whenever you need art support. And I think it gets a bit more tricky to manage when to use outsourcers when money is extremely tight and there's a lot to figure out in the game, so you don't know when to turn on that faucet.

This depends. As a UE4 developer I can say that you don't necessarily own all the tech you produce during a partnership. It may very well be that whatever code was supplied by DS is owned by them and if they decide it's not worth it to partner for a sequel, YS may have to redo that work. It gets extremely messy the more companies get involved in a project. But yes, in terms of art assets they are definitely way ahead.

Possibly - I'm not sure if Deep Silver had any role in development, but YS also had a few years to develop tech before DS got involved. If it were true that DS owned some of the tech I can't imagine it would be a substantial amount, but who knows.

I don't think it was out of contempt. I think it indicates either poor planning/management, or the foolish belief that S3 was going to sell like gangbusters, or that Suzuki just doesn't have the goods and the story isn't as interesting as I thought it was.

This was a little more of a tongue-in-cheek comment on my end due to some folks going deep into hyperbole that YS intentionally withheld the story for some reason, or that cutting a minigame will bring us the full story. That's not saying anyone who thinks the story wasn't great is exaggerating - I don't think the main story is great in this game - it's the folks who take it really personally. A few days ago I even read someone who said Yu Suzuki should be stoned to death for not focusing enough on the story (I know they weren't serious about that, but pull it back a bit, haha).

I just think with all the factors involved (small core dev team that is getting used to working together, engine that needs to be customized a ton, multiple publishers, outsourcers across all departments, kickstarter expectations) it gets insanely more complicated to get all the pieces working together. Even managing the publisher/outsourcer relationships alone could be another job or two, AND a new process that needs to be figured out. I'm not sure how much outsourcing was done on Shenmue 1 and 2. And even then, bigger team, more folks to help manage all of this.

Obviously, the end result is what matters most so I think it's really easy to cast blame, and I get it. I'm also not saying that the game was managed with 100% efficiency, either, but the main point I'm trying to make is there was no baseline for the team to start with and there are so many things that could go wrong from the start in this situation. This isn't a dev team that shipped multiple games together, it's a new team with new tech and a new process and new publishers coming on board mid-project, and things can get behind schedule very quickly.

 

[iknifaugood]

Firstly, thanks for the well thought out responses all-around.

Thanks!

When looking at the credited staff, it looks like the core dev team was spread pretty evenly across all disciplines. That's why I mentioned that there are only so many folks that can get hired per department, and every single one was needed and maybe at most you can trade 1 designer or programmer spot for 1 animator or "cinematic designer", which isn't enough. A lot of the art and animation needs were outsourced to make up for that "manpower" deficit. But this is essentially turning a faucet on and off whenever you need art support. And I think it gets a bit more tricky to manage when to use outsourcers when money is extremely tight and there's a lot to figure out in the game, so you don't know when to turn on that faucet.

This is definitely true. You'd be shocked at how much money and manpower can be thrown at a project for almost nothing substantial to materialize. It was a little concerning when I noticed that Ryo seemed to have something like 3 character model updates, that's usually a big indicator that there's either been a shift in the creative team or there are character modelers with nothing to do (though I'm thankful for the changes).

That's not saying anyone who thinks the story wasn't great is exaggerating - I don't think the main story is great in this game - it's the folks who take it really personally. A few days ago I even read someone who said Yu Suzuki should be stoned to death for not focusing enough on the story (I know they weren't serious about that, but pull it back a bit, haha).

Agreed, I've seen some comments take things way too far. Even Jim Sterling's recent video on Shenmue avoided calling out Yu Suzuki for anything other than spending too much money relative to the audience size.

I just think with all the factors involved (small core dev team that is getting used to working together, engine that needs to be customized a ton, multiple publishers, outsourcers across all departments, kickstarter expectations) it gets insanely more complicated to get all the pieces working together. Even managing the publisher/outsourcer relationships alone could be another job or two, AND a new process that needs to be figured out. I'm not sure how much outsourcing was done on Shenmue 1 and 2. And even then, bigger team, more folks to help manage all of this.

Obviously, the end result is what matters most so I think it's really easy to cast blame, and I get it. I'm also not saying that the game was managed with 100% efficiency, either, but the main point I'm trying to make is there was no baseline for the team to start with and there are so many things that could go wrong from the start in this situation. This isn't a dev team that shipped multiple games together, it's a new team with new tech and a new process and new publishers coming on board mid-project, and things can get behind schedule very quickly.

I'm less forgiving for a few reasons:
1. Yu Suzuki is a veteran designer, granted he's been out of it for a while, but he knows what it takes to bring a game to completion so I don't give him the same leeway I'd give a first time designer.

2. He knew that there was a 20 year build up to this game and that the future of the series would once again be riding on it; literally the most common criticism across all the reviews (good or bad) is that the game doesn't move the story forward enough. If he felt that the story of Ryo dealing with low level thugs like the Red Snakes is what had people weeping tears of joy when it was first announced at E3, then he doesn't understand the appeal of the game.

3. In a game where there's this little going on it's extremely weird to me that the expensive scenes like the QTEs are wasted on small scale plot points. Ryo chasing thugs through Niaowu is probably the "QTE action setpiece" of the entire game and it completely falls flat. Ryo chasing Ren, Ren and Ryo getting chased by Dou Niu, and Ryo beating up the Chi You Men on the rooftop are all QTEs of a similar scope but they're way better because they pertain to the story. Bottom line: if he had time to put something so inconsequential in, he had time to put something of substance in.

4. The things he was talking about that were ultimately cut like the strategy elements in Baisha sounded totally out of left field and likely ate up a ton of resources that were better spent elsewhere. Again, definitely something that a veteran designer should know to stay away from.

You're right to suggest that even with a large-ish team he may not have had the resources he needed, however, I stand by the claim that if he has everything as planned out as we all seem to give him credit for, then there should have been more of substance in S3. I honestly see no reason for Niaowu to even be in the game apart from the castle sequence and it's my understanding that that was what we got instead of Baisha, so it was never even part of Niaowu.

 

[hmjohnny]

The things he was talking about that were ultimately cut like the strategy elements in Baisha sounded totally out of left field and likely ate up a ton of resources that were better spent elsewhere. Again, definitely something that a veteran designer should know to stay away from

I think the Suzuki's issue is that he falls victim to scope creep. Jim Sterling mentions this a bit in his latest video that Kickstarter devs basically get eyes bigger than their stomachs when they see the money rolling in. Suzuki is known for this with Shenmue, causing the original game to balloon and have to be split. He kept pushing for more superfluous detail in the game eating up the budget. Granted, a lot of it added to the immersion and is some of the stuff that fans really enjoyed about the game, but was it all necessary? Suzuki himself said that if he could have he would have added physics to make the ramen noodles soften in water.

You're right to suggest that even with a large-ish team he may not have had the resources he needed, however, I stand by the claim that if he has everything as planned out as we all seem to give him credit for, then there should have been more of substance in S3. I honestly see no reason for Niaowu to even be in the game apart from the castle sequence and it's my understanding that that was what we got instead of Baisha, so it was never even part of Niaowu

Niaowu shouldn't have been in the game at all. I'm curious since it never was a part of the original VFRPG chapters why it was even included. Thing is, they had early dev footage of Baisha running before it was scrapped. They had it before even showing anything about Niaowu so I'm not sure what happened. Especially since all of the story elements regarding the Chi You Men seemed to revolve around Baisha it would have made sense to cut Niaowu instead. Was it just hubris on Suzuki's part to think he could fit it all in with the budget he had?

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Niaowu shouldn't have been in the game at all. I'm curious since it never was a part of the original VFRPG chapters why it was even included. ]

Yes it was; Chapter 6 card is Niaowu.

 

[hmjohnny]

Yes it was; Chapter 6 card is Niaowu

Are you referring to the GDC presentation with the VFRPG chapter cards?

If so, then Chapter 6 is Xian. Niaowu is not a real place.