What downgrades do you expect from Shenmue 4 ?

[spud1897]

It doesn't mean you can program a 2D visual novel that you can do it well.
2D presentation for cutscene still require a lot of skill when it comes to presentation, story telling and cutscene construction. If anything, it requires more skills because you're working on limitations here.

Something that has been really lacking in Shenmue III, despite the technology and manpower.

Given that @ShenSun has made a 2d visual Shenmue game in the past, amongst some other nice projects, I'd say they could do it well enough and see the point they're trying to make.

 

[9dragons]

What is wrong with the cut Scenes of Shenmue? I though they were quite good. Maybe a bit old fashioned because you can move around while they are Happening but I prefer the old way over the new way when the Story is told when you are moving. it is eay to miss important in Information that way.

2d Cutscenes might be ok for telling the Story, but Action Segments cannot be told in 2d. And that make Things difficult.

 

[ShenSun]

It doesn't mean you can program a 2D visual novel that you can do it well.
2D presentation for cutscene still require a lot of skill when it comes to presentation, story telling and cutscene construction. If anything, it requires more skills because you're working on limitations here.

Something that has been really lacking in Shenmue III, despite the technology and manpower.

Plenty of 2d visual novels on the market that have great cutscenes and direction already. Use those as inspiration and then innovate and put your own unique twist on it using shenmue and its story.

Personally i hope they stick to 3d and continue to improve on what they created in Shenmue 3. It'll will require more work but it would flow better with the entire series and just feel right. Writing/direction is the main thing i think they need to improve on to bring everything together coherently.

 

[Sonoshee]

ShenSun's mention of writing/direction reminded me of a point I've seen posted a few times recently... Shenmue's original story writer... Is there a specific reason why he wasn't back for Shenmue 3? Busy on other projects? Retirement? Refusal? Or he just wasn't asked?

 

[Kiske]

ShenSun's mention of writing/direction reminded me of a point I've seen posted a few times recently... Shenmue's original story writer... Is there a specific reason why he wasn't back for Shenmue 3? Busy on other projects? Retirement? Refusal? Or he just wasn't asked?

Maybe a matter of budget too? Was he alone though or were several writers involved for tuning the story, buildlng character backgrounds, etc...?

 

[Sergeynest]

Maybe a matter of budget too? Was he alone though or were several writers involved for tuning the story, buildlng character backgrounds, etc...?

I don't know the writter nor the team members resposible for the writting (Script/Story); but I honestly felt that almost any hardcore Shenmue fan could have done a far better job than they did in Shenmue 3.

 

[GhostTrick]

Given that @ShenSun has made a 2d visual Shenmue game in the past, amongst some other nice projects, I'd say they could do it well enough and see the point they're trying to make.

I doubt ShenSun did it on great level. And this isn't a personnal attack. Very few visual novels or 2D cutscenes manages to close the gap, because it's a really difficult exercise. Even stuff like Danganronpa fail to pull it imo.
People keep saying 2D cutscenes are cheap, but they're not. It's really difficult to pull a great looking scene with 2D sprites and CGs.

Yes, it can be cheap to make a 2D cutscene. But it can also be even cheaper to make a 3D one, like the basic conversation system we see in Shenmue 3 or many other games.

Plenty of 2d visual novels on the market that have great cutscenes and direction already. Use those as inspiration and then innovate and put your own unique twist on it using shenmue and its story.

Personally i hope they stick to 3d and continue to improve on what they created in Shenmue 3. It'll will require more work but it would flow better with the entire series and just feel right. Writing/direction is the main thing i think they need to improve on to bring everything together coherently.

I wouldn't say plenty. A lot do a serviceable job, but very few manages to have great cutscenes.
I also hope they stick to 3D but I don't think 2D or 3D is the issue here. It really is the cutscene direction that happens to be a problem, so yeah, I agree on that.

(even though, I wouldn't see 2D cutscenes as a downgrade if done well, especially with nice artworks).

 

[mjqjazzbar]

What is wrong with the cut Scenes of Shenmue? I though they were quite good. Maybe a bit old fashioned because you can move around while they are Happening but I prefer the old way over the new way when the Story is told when you are moving. it is eay to miss important in Information that way.

2d Cutscenes might be ok for telling the Story, but Action Segments cannot be told in 2d. And that make Things difficult.

The big issue is there just aren't that many cutscenes or scenes that advance the story meaningfully. I also think some of the direction is very poor, particularly in the beginning when they really blow their chance at immediately gripping you. I think that's the cutscene direction that disappointed most of us. But I also have to assume the script was written before the cutscenes were made, so the script gets most of the blame for not advancing the story.

The GUI/UI needs major overhauls. What was in Shenmue 3 reminds me of like standard buttons you'd get in a cheap game programming package. There's no flair, no unity, and honestly it's all a bit visually confusing.

 

[ShenSun]

I doubt ShenSun did it on great level. And this isn't a personnal attack. Very few visual novels or 2D cutscenes manages to close the gap, because it's a really difficult exercise. Even stuff like Danganronpa fail to pull it imo.
People keep saying 2D cutscenes are cheap, but they're not. It's really difficult to pull a great looking scene with 2D sprites and CGs.

Yes, it can be cheap to make a 2D cutscene. But it can also be even cheaper to make a 3D one, like the basic conversation system we see in Shenmue 3 or many other games.






I wouldn't say plenty. A lot do a serviceable job, but very few manages to have great cutscenes.
I also hope they stick to 3D but I don't think 2D or 3D is the issue here. It really is the cutscene direction that happens to be a problem, so yeah, I agree on that.

(even though, I wouldn't see 2D cutscenes as a downgrade if done well, especially with nice artworks).

No offense taken. The visual novel i made didn't have full on cutscenes. It was more in game stuff with little sprinkles of cutscenes, which was easy enough to do. Combine that with music, story and writting and you can convey the emotion you want to the player.

If i were to do another one, i probably would attempt full on cutscenes and try to mimic metal gear solid peace walker. That had great 2d cutscenes. Definitely more work, but i can certainly see the logical programming path to get there.

I hear ya on Danganrompa

 

[Dg1995]

No downgrades. I expect upgrades amd improvements.

Unfortunately, we can't expect improvements if the next Shenmue game doesn't get enough budget for it's development.
If it gets a low budget then we should expect some downgrades.
And believe me, a franchise continuing to live on as a low budget franchise is much better than seeing it to die. Like the Streets Of Rage franchise that is now alive as a low budget franchise instead of being completely dead.

 

[Sonoshee]

Unfortunately, we can't expect improvements if the next Shenmue game doesn't get enough budget for it's development.
If it gets a low budget then we should expect some downgrades.
And believe me, a franchise continuing to live on as a low budget franchise is much better than seeing it to die. Like the Streets Of Rage franchise that is now alive as a low budget franchise instead of being completely dead.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Shenmue 4 would have a decreased budget.
The head of Koch said the game was financially "fine". That doesn't mean great, but it doesn't mean bad, either.
I'd imagine the funding at this point being split between Shibuya, Koch and Epic, if agreements are in place with them for the next game.
If not, then Yu said he would secure other partners.
But I would expect a budget still on par with Shenmue 3. Maybe they'll even allow "slacker backer" type payments from fans via Paypal again, with the money going straight to development instead of any kind of rewards.

 

[GhostTrick]

No offense taken. The visual novel i made didn't have full on cutscenes. It was more in game stuff with little sprinkles of cutscenes, which was easy enough to do. Combine that with music, story and writting and you can convey the emotion you want to the player.

If i were to do another one, i probably would attempt full on cutscenes and try to mimic metal gear solid peace walker. That had great 2d cutscenes. Definitely more work, but i can certainly see the logical programming path to get there.

I hear ya on Danganrompa

Then again, yes, hence why I wanted to emphasize on no personnal attack, as it's something I meant for a LOT of big visual novels even.
Very few manages to convey action or important scenes very well because they're often too static.

Some on the other hand manage to do it fairly well, because they feature a lot of CGs, a lot of sprites but also because they apply a lot of effects on the sprites (visual effects, zoom, rotations).
On top of that, some also offers animated cutscenes for the more important setpieces.

Honestly speaking, this could work if done well in Shenmue III. But I dont think it'd be cheaper, quite the opposite. Hence why people thinking 2D cutscenes might be a downgrade or cheaper are wrong.

The actual system is actually cheaper since it already exists and is already implemented.

 

[Dg1995]

Honestly speaking, this could work if done well in Shenmue III. But I dont think it'd be cheaper, quite the opposite. Hence why people thinking 2D cutscenes might be a downgrade or cheaper are wrong.

The actual system is actually cheaper since it already exists and is already implemented.

Well, let's look it this way(Based on what I know about these stuff)

-3D cutscenes development
1.writing the way that cutscene plays out.(Alongside writing the dialogues)
2.drawing Storyboards
3.Mocap work.
4.Transfering that stuff to the game.
5.fixing all the issues that might happen.(Character models becoming buggy, facial animations messing up etc.)
6.Determining the way that the camera is going to behave in the whole cutscene.
7.Determining how character models are going to act when they are outside of camera.(Lots of games do some stuff like making a character model coming out of ground or something like that. Based on cutscene camera hacks.)
8.Doing ADR for the scene.

2D cutscene development(comic book style):
1.writing the way that cutscene plays out.
2.drawing Storyboards.
3.Making a high resolution version of the scenes and coloring them.
4.ADR.

2D cutscene development:
Similar to previous one but with one more stage of animating the whole pictures.

As you see based on what I know, making 2D cutscenes is much more cheaper and easier. Another advantage of 2D cutscenes is that you have easier time changing stuff in it.(Since the story/plot in video games always change from the beginning of development.)

It's like comparing A CGI cartoon to a 2D cartoon.(Which 2D cartoons are far more cheaper to make)

MGS 4 had a very high development costs. That was mainly due to the amount of 3D cutscenes that it had.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

I find this query a rather odd one given the context surrounding contemporary gaming. We live in an era where numerous independent developers with minimal resources can create incredible video games due to advancements and accessibility in technology. So I don't see why Suzuki would have to heavily downgrade a potential Shenmue IV.


The problem with Shenmue III (in my opinion) was its lack of focus. Imagine if Suzuki just concentrated his efforts on the story, combat, animations, and cinematics instead of adding in the twentieth version of Smart Ball, Lucky Hit, or Pail Toss. I mean the path was laid out for him with the story already written and the assets provided to him by SEGA. The only downgrade I could see for Shenmue IV is a single voice track in Japanese or English or text boxes I suppose.

I think that if Suzuki centers on what I feel are the "core elements" for Shenmue IV, there should not be any problems. The only thing I think would be different this time, would be marketing the game through word of mouth. If Shenmue IV is considered a high-quality product by a large enough audience, it wouldn't be long before another publisher was knocking at Y's Net's door. And all the drama that surrounded Shenmue III would be forgotten.

At the end of the day, I will support Shenmue IV regardless of whatever format it's in. However, the combat and cinematics are part of the reason why I love this franchise so much. So if they go I would understand, but I would be saddened by their loss.

 

[Dehone]

Unfortunately, we can't expect improvements if the next Shenmue game doesn't get enough budget for it's development.
If it gets a low budget then we should expect some downgrades.
And believe me, a franchise continuing to live on as a low budget franchise is much better than seeing it to die. Like the Streets Of Rage franchise that is now alive as a low budget franchise instead of being completely dead.

I wouldn't consider Streets of rage 4 budget, or at least in the same context we would see shenmue if we got a budget game. It's a beat em up that takes a couple hours to beat. There arent many elements to add to make any beat em up a big or even decent budget game. 8-12 levels, handful of characters with a handful of animations, music, very little voice acting and you've got a beat em up. Also, SoR 4 kept the same formula, even down to hiring Yuzo Koshiro for part of the soundtrack. It was meant to be a throwback to the 90s and not necessarily meant to make huge advances, aside from a few tweaks to the combat such as juggle combos. It was meant to please the fans who had grown up on the series and had no follow up for almost 30 years. The most time consuming part of the game was likely drawing the environments, as they are extremely detailed. Probably have a bunch of unused hand drawn animations and environments.

 

[OZoran Tsubasa]

I'd cut the awkward English dub.

 

[DragonOfJoejima]

I don't know where all this chat about 2D cutscenes being easier/cheaper to produce than 3D ones has come from. Proper 2D cutscenes (even cheap 2D ones) are a ball ache to make compared to cheap 3D cutscenes because they involve an entirely different set of skills than what's already being used to make the games!

 

[GhostTrick]

Well, let's look it this way(Based on what I know about these stuff)

-3D cutscenes development
1.writing the way that cutscene plays out.(Alongside writing the dialogues)
2.drawing Storyboards
3.Mocap work.
4.Transfering that stuff to the game.
5.fixing all the issues that might happen.(Character models becoming buggy, facial animations messing up etc.)
6.Determining the way that the camera is going to behave in the whole cutscene.
7.Determining how character models are going to act when they are outside of camera.(Lots of games do some stuff like making a character model coming out of ground or something like that. Based on cutscene camera hacks.)
8.Doing ADR for the scene.

2D cutscene development(comic book style):
1.writing the way that cutscene plays out.
2.drawing Storyboards.
3.Making a high resolution version of the scenes and coloring them.
4.ADR.

2D cutscene development:
Similar to previous one but with one more stage of animating the whole pictures.

As you see based on what I know, making 2D cutscenes is much more cheaper and easier. Another advantage of 2D cutscenes is that you have easier time changing stuff in it.(Since the story/plot in video games always change from the beginning of development.)

It's like comparing A CGI cartoon to a 2D cartoon.(Which 2D cartoons are far more cheaper to make)

MGS 4 had a very high development costs. That was mainly due to the amount of 3D cutscenes that it had.

Not every cutscene needs to be mocapped in 3D. Do you think most of the conversations in the game were moccaped ?
As for "transferring that stuff to the game" it's also how it works for 2D cutscenes.
Determining the way the camera is going to behave ? Even more difficult in 2D, since if you want to do any change... you have to redraw the entire scene. 3D gives you a lot of flexibility for fixes. Not 2D.

 

[Dg1995]

I find this query a rather odd one given the context surrounding contemporary gaming. We live in an era where numerous independent developers with minimal resources can create incredible video games due to advancements and accessibility in technology. So I don't see why Suzuki would have to heavily downgrade a potential Shenmue IV.


The problem with Shenmue III (in my opinion) was its lack of focus. Imagine if Suzuki just concentrated his efforts on the story, combat, animations, and cinematics instead of adding in the twentieth version of Smart Ball, Lucky Hit, or Pail Toss. I mean the path was laid out for him with the story already written and the assets provided to him by SEGA. The only downgrade I could see for Shenmue IV is a single voice track in Japanese or English or text boxes I suppose.

I think that if Suzuki centers on what I feel are the "core elements" for Shenmue IV, there should not be any problems. The only thing I think would be different this time, would be marketing the game through word of mouth. If Shenmue IV is considered a high quality product by a large enough audience, it wouldn't be long before another publisher was knocking at Y's Net's door. And all the drama that surrounded Shenmue III would be forgotten.

That's because open world games require a 100 member team working on it for 4-5 years and a budget of 100 million dollars in order to be able to stand out against the other open world games.

That's the main reason why independent developers rarely make open world games because their open world games will look so inferior compare to open world games by big publishers.(Cyberpunk, Red Dead Redemption 2 , GTA V)

Shenmue 4 in my opinion will never gets these treatments. So it needs some downgrades to become the best game it can become.

I'd cut the awkward English dub.

I personally would cut the QTE mini games and cutscenes.

 

[Sonoshee]

I personally would cut the QTE mini games and cutscenes.

Do that and you lose an essence of what makes it Shenmue.