What Story Remains for Shenmue to End?

[Arcadio]

To be honest, the end is basically that Ryo defeat LAN di and crush Chiyou's ambition. Shahua has said in S3 that she had a dream in which she was just born in the imperial city and her parents called her name beside her. She had a feeling that she had had hundreds of birthdays. She is not necessarily the princess of the Qing dynasty, and her soul may have existed in another dynasty hundreds of years ago.

Actually, I'm looking forward to the process. Suzuki has said that he will no doubt put Cangzhou Iron Lion and the Forbidden City in the sequel. Even if Ryo say nothing and just stand there looking up at the majestic Iron Lion from the bottom up, I think it will be a touching scene.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's the thing, everything doesn't need to add up, that's the beauty of a STORY

A story where all the elements don't add up is called a bad story. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what elements you consider essential to wrapping up that story--what are yours?

You are able to take liberties and even make things more exciting than it was historically.

First of all, Shenmue 3 hardly seems overly concerned with being exciting. Second of all, Suzuki is the one who decided to make the mirrors created at the end of the Qing dynasty... that's on him to make it make sense. He could have made it easy on himself and make it like every other story involving an ancient artifact and made the artifact, well, ancient, I'm assuming he did this for a reason. There's a reason Indiana Jones doesn't meet the grandson of the man who made the Ark of the Covenant. Third of all, if Suzuki wanted to tell the story of a long lost princess regaining her throne or whatever (not saying that's what Shenmue is actually about), then he shouldn't have set it in 1980's China, where that kind of thing doesn't matter. He could easily have set it in a fantasy world if he wanted to make everything up. Again, I'm assuming he set it when and where he did for a reason.

I very much doubt there were mirrors that showed a path to treasure back then either.

I know, and it's totally fine that they lead to a treasure. But we're told that treasure will revive the Qing dynasty and the mirrors were made in 1910, one year before the dynasty fell, so tell me: if they had a treasure that would revive the dynasty one year before the dynasty fell, why did the dynasty fall? This is what I mean about how things need to add up. The same way it wouldn't make sense if Ryo suddenly got into a Tesla and drove to Meng Cun.

Certain things are being REFERENCED, but only to build a story Yu himself has written.

Yes and he referenced specific emperors of specific dynasties during specific years. We know who the emperor of China was during 1910. S3 tells us that the dragon and the phoenix design are symbols of that emperor's will, which is cool, however, why doesn't Master Chen, a Chinese antique dealer, recognize those symbols? He was born 15 years after the dynasty fell.

Isn't the whole point of a story is to maybe use some history as a setting but within that create your own timeline/interpretation. Much like an artist making a painting, interpreting what they see?

Yea and it's totally cool that he does that (the Assassin's Creed games play fast and loose with history as well, I'm not saying he needs to be slavish to history). However, he set it in China so, imo, he should respect that culture. If Shenhua is the long lost heir to the Qing dynasty (just for the sake of argument, I don't actually think she is) then that doesn't matter because the male heir is alive to this day. And if Suzuki wants to change it so that the Qing dynasty had a different emperor when it ended and there are no heirs in the Shenmue timeline, well, then he shouldn't have used the Qing dynasty and he shouldn't have set the story in China, where female heirs have no claim.

Tomb Raider 2 and Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb also have stories that are set in China around ancient artifacts, but they're ANCIENT, you can't walk up to people who were alive when they were made and ask them why they're magic. They're also simple stories about evil organizations that want simple artifacts for power to take over the world, but they are no where near as detailed or realistic as Shenmue and don't purport to require 4-5 multi million dollar 20+ hour projects to properly tell. I'm with Suzuki when it comes to his ambitions--it's the main thing I love about Shenmue--but I'm absolutely going to hold him accountable if he falls short.

 

[spud1897]

Yea and it's totally cool that he does that (the Assassin's Creed games play fast and loose with history as well, I'm not saying he needs to be slavish to history). However, he set it in China so, imo, he should respect that culture. If Shenhua is the long lost heir to the Qing dynasty (just for the sake of argument, I don't actually think she is) then that doesn't matter because the male heir is alive to this day. And if Suzuki wants to change it so that the Qing dynasty had a different emperor when it ended and there are no heirs in the Shenmue timeline, well, then he shouldn't have used the Qing dynasty and he shouldn't have set the story in China, where female heirs have no claim.

Tomb Raider 2 and Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb also have stories that are set in China around ancient artifacts, but they're ANCIENT, you can't walk up to people who were alive when they were made and ask them why they're magic. They're also simple stories about evil organizations that want simple artifacts for power to take over the world, but they are no where near as detailed or realistic as Shenmue and don't purport to require 4-5 multi million dollar 20+ hour projects to properly tell. I'm with Suzuki when it comes to his ambitions--it's the main thing I love about Shenmue--but I'm absolutely going to hold him accountable if he falls short.

I think that's an extremely nitty gripe there. Theres plenty of games out there that either go with a different view on history or literally play on historical events but how they panned out differently. Books do it all the time. I hardly see that as a criticism of the story or choice of setting and on the whole it's been more than respectful to chinese culture.

Guilin accurately portrayed. Hong Kong was for the time.

The beauty of Shenmue is that it borders on both reality in its grounding but with magical undertones. That's pretty much the entire game this theme has been going. I'm not sure that's a reason to hold anyone to account.

 

[GhostTrick]

A story where all the elements don't add up is called a bad story. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what elements you consider essential to wrapping up that story--what are yours?


First of all, Shenmue 3 hardly seems overly concerned with being exciting. Second of all, Suzuki is the one who decided to make the mirrors created at the end of the Qing dynasty... that's on him to make it make sense. He could have made it easy on himself and make it like every other story involving an ancient artifact and made the artifact, well, ancient, I'm assuming he did this for a reason. There's a reason Indiana Jones doesn't meet the grandson of the man who made the Ark of the Covenant. Third of all, if Suzuki wanted to tell the story of a long lost princess regaining her throne or whatever (not saying that's what Shenmue is actually about), then he shouldn't have set it in 1980's China, where that kind of thing doesn't matter. He could easily have set it in a fantasy world if he wanted to make everything up. Again, I'm assuming he set it when and where he did for a reason.


I know, and it's totally fine that they lead to a treasure. But we're told that treasure will revive the Qing dynasty and the mirrors were made in 1910, one year before the dynasty fell, so tell me: if they had a treasure that would revive the dynasty one year before the dynasty fell, why did the dynasty fall? This is what I mean about how things need to add up. The same way it wouldn't make sense if Ryo suddenly got into a Tesla and drove to Meng Cun.


Yes and he referenced specific emperors of specific dynasties during specific years. We know who the emperor of China was during 1910. S3 tells us that the dragon and the phoenix design are symbols of that emperor's will, which is cool, however, why doesn't Master Chen, a Chinese antique dealer, recognize those symbols? He was born 15 years after the dynasty fell.


Yea and it's totally cool that he does that (the Assassin's Creed games play fast and loose with history as well, I'm not saying he needs to be slavish to history). However, he set it in China so, imo, he should respect that culture. If Shenhua is the long lost heir to the Qing dynasty (just for the sake of argument, I don't actually think she is) then that doesn't matter because the male heir is alive to this day. And if Suzuki wants to change it so that the Qing dynasty had a different emperor when it ended and there are no heirs in the Shenmue timeline, well, then he shouldn't have used the Qing dynasty and he shouldn't have set the story in China, where female heirs have no claim.

Tomb Raider 2 and Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb also have stories that are set in China around ancient artifacts, but they're ANCIENT, you can't walk up to people who were alive when they were made and ask them why they're magic. They're also simple stories about evil organizations that want simple artifacts for power to take over the world, but they are no where near as detailed or realistic as Shenmue and don't purport to require 4-5 multi million dollar 20+ hour projects to properly tell. I'm with Suzuki when it comes to his ambitions--it's the main thing I love about Shenmue--but I'm absolutely going to hold him accountable if he falls short.

Shenmue III honestly feels like it doesn't know where its trying to go and what its trying to do with older key plot points.

Like, you spend an entire game to find Shenhua's father to learn what you knew already by the end of Shenmue II.
- The mirrors leads to a treasure
- Lan Di is Zhao Sunming's son

What you learn is to go to the cliff temple.

Wow.
Like at no point anyone wants to know why he was carving those big mirrors. What's their point. Why was there a mechanism. What was this quarry.

 

[spud1897]

Shenmue III honestly feels like it doesn't know where its trying to go and what its trying to do with older key plot points.

Like, you spend an entire game to find Shenhua's father to learn what you knew already by the end of Shenmue II.
- The mirrors leads to a treasure
- Lan Di is Zhao Sunming's son

What you learn is to go to the cliff temple.

Wow.
Like at no point anyone wants to know why he was carving those big mirrors. What's their point. Why was there a mechanism. What was this quarry.

Maybe that's because until Shenmue II not one person know what was going on down there. Also for Shenmue III while it is a little remissive that they didn't ask about the quarry it could still easily be covered in Shenmue 4.

What they might do (and probably should have in Shenmue III at end) is go back to the boat with Yuan and actually have some detailed conversations around that. He's likely the only person in Bailu who has any idea why the quarry is what it is given it's been passed down a couple of generations.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think that's an extremely nitty gripe there.

If Shenhua is the long lost heir of the Qing dynasty and that's somehow what is supposed to restore the dynasty, I'm sorry but that's not a nitty gripe; that's a broken plot.

Theres plenty of games out there that either go with a different view on history or literally play on historical events but how they panned out differently. Books do it all the time.

I said he can play as fast and loose with history as he wants, as long as it adds up and is internally consistent. You want to tell me the mirrors are 70 years old? Great, now how do they resurrect an ancient Chinese monster? And why did the final emperor of China (again, a real person) order that to be created? OR if we're going the "revive the Qing dynasty" route, why did that emperor bury his treasure that could revive his dynasty and then let his dynasty end? You can see how that doesn't add up, right?

And regarding that 70 year timeline... if the mirrors were created in 1910 and they were stored in the Cliff Temple until Sunming Zhao got a hold of them, and after that Iwao brought them back to Japan in 1968... how did anyone find out about them?

BTW it's fine that this doesn't add up now. I don't expect it to if we're really only 40% of the way, but then, as I keep saying, we need more info and that info needs to make sense. If Suzuki really wrote a story about mirrors that are keys to a bunch of gold then that breaks everything from Iwao's sacrifice, to the CYM's motivations, to everything Zhu and Chen said, to the very stakes of the story.

Guilin accurately portrayed.

Bailu Village and especially Niaowu, though fictitious, are not accurate portrayals of rural China in the 1980s. From the booming arcade culture, to the Shinto shrines, to the fashion, to the cleanliness (seriously, compare it to Kowloon), no, it's not especially accurate.

The beauty of Shenmue is that it borders on both reality in its grounding but with magical undertones. That's pretty much the entire game this theme has been going. I'm not sure that's a reason to hold anyone to account.

I agree that's part of the beauty but if the story is as simple as I described above, then Suzuki did not need 4-5 installments to properly tell it. If it's really as simple as "CYM bad stop them from getting the treasure", then I see no reason why he couldn't have wrapped it up in S3. If anything that seems to lend credence to the cynics who view Suzuki as some kind of con man (which I don't happen to agree with).

 

[spud1897]

If Shenhua is the long lost heir of the Qing dynasty and that's somehow what is supposed to restore the dynasty, I'm sorry but that's not a nitty gripe; that's a broken plot.


I said he can play as fast and loose with history as he wants, as long as it adds up and is internally consistent. You want to tell me the mirrors are 70 years old? Great, now how do they resurrect an ancient Chinese monster? And why did the final emperor of China (again, a real person) order that to be created? OR if we're going the "revive the Qing dynasty" route, why did that emperor bury his treasure that could revive his dynasty and then let his dynasty end? You can see how that doesn't add up, right?

And regarding that 70 year timeline... if the mirrors were created in 1910 and they were stored in the Cliff Temple until Sunming Zhao got a hold of them, and after that Iwao brought them back to China in 1968... how did anyone find out about them?

BTW it's fine that this doesn't add up now. I don't expect it to if we're really only 40% of the way, but then, as I keep saying, we need more info and that info needs to make sense. If Suzuki really wrote a story about mirrors that are keys to a bunch of gold then that breaks everything from Iwao's sacrifice, to the CYM's motivations, to everything Zhu and Chen said, to the very stakes of the story.


Bailu Village and especially Niaowu, though fictitious, are not accurate portrayals of rural China in the 1980s. From the booming arcade culture, to the Shinto shrines, to the fashion, to the cleanliness (seriously, compare it to Kowloon), no, it's not especially accurate.


I agree that's part of the beauty but if the story is as simple as I described above, then Suzuki did not need 4-5 installments to properly tell it. If it's really as simple as "CYM bad stop them from getting the treasure", then I see no reason why he couldn't have wrapped it up in S3. If anything that seems to lend credence to the cynics who view Suzuki as some kind of con man (which I don't happen to agree with).

I can't see her restoring any dynasty but more being a link to the past maybe. Maybe the dynasty was on its knees and some hid in Bailu Village as protectors of the treasures/mirrors. The got found and then starting the cycle that eventually Iwao etc get pulled into.

The mirrors are an interesting one. People did know about them post creation. It's actually referenced in Shenmue 1 when you take the mirrors to one of the antique shops and the owner says he read about their commissioning in a book a long time ago. Now he doesn't go into specifics but assuming the dates are detailed etc then that information is out there for CYM etc to get.

To be honest Bailu wasn't far off until you has the arcade and games. Had it been more rudimentary then it wouldn't have been too far off. Niawou looks similar to the pictures another user posted over here of a chinese port town. Now cleanliness etc can be debated but it's hardly a sticking point for me. Booming arcades meh it's a fan service and not an issue.

As you say we know 40% of what's gone on. There must be more around this.

 

[Sonoshee]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what elements you consider essential to wrapping up that story

Yes, the OP is asking what is needed to wrap up the story - he didn't ask you to break down every part of what we know so far and tear it a new one.

As for my response to this thread, I'm honestly happy with what the OP listed as needing to be wrapped up. He pretty much nailed it on the head.

First of all, Shenmue 3 hardly seems overly concerned with being exciting.

That's subjective.

A story where all the elements don't add up is called a bad story.

We're upto game 3 of a potential 5. After Yu has wrapped his story, only then can we decide if its bad or not. And even then, it'll be subjective.

Like at no point anyone wants to know why he was carving those big mirrors. What's their point. Why was there a mechanism. What was this quarry.

You're acting like the story is over. Who's to say we won't find out these answers in Shenmue 4?

Shenmue has always been about taking your time. I believe we will never truly find out the answers to everything and that's okay - some things are worth left pondering over.

 

[iknifaugood]

The OP is asking what is needed to wrap up the story

I'm the OP :)

As for my response to this thread, I'm honestly happy with what the OP listed as needing to be wrapped up. He pretty much nailed it on the head.

Thanks!

That's subjective.

I know, I was (mostly) joking.

break down every part of what we know so far and tear it a new one.

We're upto game 3 of a potential 5. After Yu has wrapped his story, only then can we decide if its bad or not. And even then, it'll be subjective.

I'm not tearing it a new one, I like the story that exists quite a lot and I think it has great potential. I'm just thinking through the implications of some of the story threads (that may or may not come to pass) and how they'll either fit in or not with what's been established to better narrow down the possibilities of where the story will go.

The CYM in particular could have an amazing backstory, worshiping Chi You's opposition to the Yellow Emperor and being the ancestor of the Miao people (I believe there's a Shenmue loading screen for Miao village somewhere). If the CYM view themselves as taking vengeance for the ethnic minorities of China against the Han people (the Qing dynasty was Manchu, 1 of only 2 non-Han dynasties), I think that would be really interesting and fit perfectly with why they would want to "revive the Qing dynasty". That's just one possibility of course, there are a lot of interesting places for the story to go in terms of plot, theme and location, and it would be a shame to me if it doesn't capitalize on all that rich potential.

I believe we will never truly find out the answers to everything and that's okay - some things are worth left pondering over.

This is true to a certain extent; you obviously don't want to bore your audience with tedious exposition, that being said, I would consider it a tremendous missed opportunity if the bad guys were named the Chi You Men and that wasn't explained.

 

[Rydeen]

What I learned from this thread: Lewis Carroll should be ashamed for his poor storytelling in Through the Looking-Glass, since he never makes it explicit what the relevance of the Jabberwocky is. He must have just not understood that you can't write a good story if everything doesn't add up by the end. Such a shame. What a waste of a potentially good story. I mean, how does Alice actually run that fast and go nowhere, anyway? Trash.

To answer the question in the OP, what matters about the story is Ryo's growth through introspection elicited by the values he acquires in his travels through China. There's no itemized list of plot threads that need to be concluded for the story to end. It will end when Ryo has reached a predetermined level of inner strength.

@Sonoshee, what you're doing, it's admirable. However, if OP wants to rigidly define a set of arbitrary metrics to evaluate the worth of Shenmue's story with, it's probably better just to leave it be. He has too narrow of a perspective to budge on anything. It's not worth the time.

View attachment 7749

Nice reference to the Kenji manga, by the way.

 

[JCJ]

My conclusion from all of this is that the Shenmue story that we will eventually get through games will be heavily compromised by a variety of factors. Budgetary constraints, change from the original team, Yu forgetting things, censorship or self-censorship to be able to release the game in China...

We've already had a big dose of that with Shenmue III, and specifically with how many plot points that must had been answered in Bailu were simply skipped. BUT i'm kind of making peace with that, and I will take the games that get released and enjoy them as much as possible.

My secret hope is that, at some point, the original untouched plot will be released in book form, and we will admire and rejoice on the whole story with our imagination and whatever we had been hinted at by the games.

 

[hmjohnny]

What I learned from this thread: Lewis Carroll should be ashamed for his poor storytelling in Through the Looking-Glass, since he never makes it explicit what the relevance of the Jabberwocky is. He must have just not understood that you can't write a good story if everything doesn't add up by the end. Such a shame. What a waste of a potentially good story. I mean, how does Alice actually run that fast and go nowhere, anyway? Trash.

Lewis Carrol was a logician. It's prevalently thought that those stories were satire illustrating how absurd it is to have a world where nothing makes sense.

Either way, they were written as silly children's stories, I assume you don't feel that way about Shenmue.

To answer the question in the OP, what matters about the story is Ryo's growth through introspection elicited by the values he acquires in his travels through China. There's no itemized list of plot threads that need to be concluded for the story to end. It will end when Ryo has reached a predetermined level of inner strength.

What level does Ryo need to be to end the story and why do we need multiple more games for that?

 

[Yokosuka]

Bailu Village and especially Niaowu, though fictitious, are not accurate portrayals of rural China in the 1980s. From the booming arcade culture, to the Shinto shrines, to the fashion, to the cleanliness (seriously, compare it to Kowloon), no, it's not especially accurate.

Off topic but I do agree. The S3 locations are (mostly) beautiful but both look fake, and this fakeness has been part of my disappointment of the game.

Hong Kong was formally unrealistic but the vibes were amazingly accurate as a dirty city located in South Asia. Guilin of S3 didn't seem to have a lot of authenticity, and I'm not talking about anachronistic technology only but general depiction. It looks too idealized and I didn't feel the "humidity" I expected to smell in that subtropical region. The effects related with rain were impressive and gave a nice touch of immersion but it's just one side of "humidity" concept. I prefered the Guilin of Shenmue 2.

I'm not going back on Niaowu case. Everyone has explained well the reasons why it felt wrong.

Shenmue I & 2 were all about authenticity while being beautiful. Shenmue III is rather beauty for beauty. In that sense, it is not so different from the vision of mainstream games so I feel the franchise has lost one of its original traits and main interests again.

The reality was probably conflicting with Takimoto's colorful vision. Yu Suzuki had to make a decision and chose the nice artworks of his architect as he needed something flashy to compensate the lack of realism (and deepness).

edit:
A Chinese wrote an article about representation of Guilin in Shenmue 3, and does confirm the game is far from accurate. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-12-12-shenmue-3-the-view-from-guilin

 

[GhostTrick]

Yes, the OP is asking what is needed to wrap up the story - he didn't ask you to break down every part of what we know so far and tear it a new one.

As for my response to this thread, I'm honestly happy with what the OP listed as needing to be wrapped up. He pretty much nailed it on the head.



That's subjective.



We're upto game 3 of a potential 5. After Yu has wrapped his story, only then can we decide if its bad or not. And even then, it'll be subjective.



You're acting like the story is over. Who's to say we won't find out these answers in Shenmue 4?

Shenmue has always been about taking your time. I believe we will never truly find out the answers to everything and that's okay - some things are worth left pondering over.

Of course anything can be answered in a latter game. But I feel like this was the best moment ?
It's not like much usefull things were told. How long is that scene with Shenhua's father ? 2-3 minutes ? All to say that Lan Di is heading for the temple. Was there really no time to discuss those matters now ?

And the more you delay answers, the more difficult it is to finish the story in 2 games. Hence why Shenmue III felt like a filler. Because it spent 30 hours dragging its feet. Hence why IV can never be the last one.

 

[Sonoshee]

I'm the OP :)

Lol, my bad!!

Thanks!

I still stand by that. All the points you raised were pretty much spot on with what I also felt needs to be covered.
But I also stand by the points I made in that Yu is allowed to make some alterations to historical accuracy with his own story so he should be cut some slack. Video games are entertainment at the end of the day and nothing more.

@Sonoshee, what you're doing, it's admirable. However, if OP wants to rigidly define a set of arbitrary metrics to evaluate the worth of Shenmue's story with, it's probably better just to leave it be. He has too narrow of a perspective to budge on anything. It's not worth the time.

I feel I've said all I really wanted to say in this thread anyway. I'm just as bad in starting to sound like a broken record.

 

[iknifaugood]

What I learned from this thread: Lewis Carroll should be ashamed for his poor storytelling in Through the Looking-Glass, since he never makes it explicit what the relevance of the Jabberwocky is. He must have just not understood that you can't write a good story if everything doesn't add up by the end. Such a shame. What a waste of a potentially good story. I mean, how does Alice actually run that fast and go nowhere, anyway? Trash.

The Alice books are perfectly consistent with what they establish because they take place in fantasy worlds where the author can make them about whatever he wants. Alice even explicitly travels there from our world as a point of contrast. Shenmue, on the other hand, takes place on Earth in China in 1987. By your logic, Ryo should be able to take a Tesla to Meng Cun without question as long as that's what Suzuki intended or it adds to Ryo's "inner strength".

Also, the Jabberwocky is specifically a nonsense poem, it's just for fun; do you think Shenmue is nonsense? If Shenhua started each game saying "He shall appear from a fibbledeegoo shmibbledeeboo across the froople smoople. A young furlip who doesn't quip his noodlepip etc." then you might have a point.

To answer the question in the OP, what matters about the story is Ryo's growth through introspection elicited by the values he acquires in his travels through China. There's no itemized list of plot threads that need to be concluded for the story to end. It will end when Ryo has reached a predetermined level of inner strength.

And I’m the one being arbitrary? What is the predetermined level of inner strength? And which of the plot threads that I listed do you seriously think won’t be addressed? You think Ryo isn't going to find out what happened between Iwao and Sunming? I didn't just randomly pick these threads out of thin air, they were established in the previous games--that's how stories work.

But I also stand by the points I made in that Yu is allowed to make some alterations to historical accuracy with his own story so he should be cut some slack.

I'll cut him slack with the accuracy if the story is ultimately really good (I don't actually care if Master Chen should have recognized the symbols on the mirrors, for instance, because it's not like that suddenly makes the story bad) but not if certain specifics (like the Qing dynasty or the Chi You Men) were just brought up arbitrarily; atm I'm giving Suzuki more credit than that by assuming all the pieces are there for a reason.

Video games are entertainment at the end of the day and nothing more.

There's obvious truth to this but games can tell great stories as much as movies, books, comics, or TV shows can. I would like Shenmue better if it told a great story and so far it has the potential to do just that.

 

[Rydeen]

Lewis Carrol was a logician. It's prevalently thought that those stories were satire illustrating how absurd it is to have a world where nothing makes sense.

Either way, they were written as silly children's stories, I assume you don't feel that way about Shenmue.

Shenmue, on the other hand, takes place on Earth in China in 1987. By your logic, Ryo should be able to take a Tesla to Meng Cun without question as long as that's what Suzuki intended or it adds to Ryo's "inner strength".

I'm aware of Lewis Carroll's background, but since hyperbole doesn't seem to be understood here, I'll try to summarize more clearly: Just because the meaning behind certain narrative elements is not clear to someone, on its face, does not make the writing poor. The meaning behind good symbols in literature is not often explained to the last detail (if at all). The mirrors are symbolic, the treasure is, likely, symbolic (Lan Di's pearl of wisdom; it's even there in the scroll), the tree is symbolic, and they fit into motifs centered on Chinese mythologies. You don't read The Old Man and the Sea, and say, 'Yeah, that was written really poorly because the old man didn't accomplish anything, and we didn't even find out any real details about the marlin or the sharks,' do you? If so, then it seems like you really haven't learned how to interact with meaningful stories.

If you want to miss the forest for the trees, then be my guest. I can't stop you. It just sounds to me like you could get a lot more enjoyment out of this style of media if you learned how to interpret things for yourselves, instead of worrying about whether or not there will be a "cool payoff."

What level does Ryo need to be to end the story and why do we need multiple more games for that?

I'm sure I don't know. That's already been determined by the writers group Suzuki put together for VFRPG. He suggests in interviews that Ryo comes to a realization that he's no longer alone through much closer bonds with the people traveling with him (Shenhua and Ren, for now at least), which triggers a sense of hollowness in his pursuit for revenge. This is consistent with the poem used in early promotions, and printed in the OST book.

Alice even explicitly travels there from our world as a point of contrast.

This is a matter of interpretation, by the way. Alice begins in the Looking-glass House by describing it to Dinah as if it were a real place. Dodgson wrote the stories for the daughter of his college's dean (Alice Liddell), probably to represent the imagination of a child, and to inspire hers. Also, none of the plot is "explicit," and Alice 'wakes up' shaking one of Dinah's kittens that she had perceived to be The Red Queen. That's the point, and there's a whole world of surrealist fiction that spends most of its time obfuscating details. So either those stories have no merit because a lot of the details don't add up, or you just don't acknowledge the aspects of stories that go beyond raw plot and exposition. Personally, I think it's the latter, and I'd argue that those aspects are what's most important to a story.

 

[iknifaugood]

The mirrors are symbolic, the treasure is, likely, symbolic (Lan Di's pearl of wisdom; it's even there in the scroll), the tree is symbolic, and they fit into motifs centered on Chinese mythologies.

Symbolism is only part of it, it's not an end in itself. The mirrors are not just symbolic, they're keys to a treasure; that treasure isn't just symbolic because it's indicative of the stakes of the story (Iwao took the mirrors back to Japan and risked his life for what? The CYM need to be stopped unless they get their hands on symbolism?). The Shenmue tree is the only thing that may exist purely for symbolism, and that's fine though, again, I would not expect us to not encounter another Shenmue tree in the game SHENMUE and the context in which they appear in the story will largely describe their symbolism.

Also, just because a story contains strong symbolism doesn't automatically make it good (watch Mother! for an example of that), especially for something non-abstract like Shenmue. Shenmue clearly has a plot and that plot needs to make sense first and foremost, the symbolism comes after.

You don't read The Old Man and the Sea, and say, 'Yeah, that was written really poorly because the old man didn't accomplish anything, and we didn't even find out any real details about the marlin or the sharks,' do you?

Shenmue is not this type of story. It's an adventure/mystery story. The Old Man and the Sea is also a short novel, not an epic saga spanning multiple installments. Shenmue has far more in common with Harry Potter, LOTR, GoT, Star Wars etc. than any of the literature you've mentioned. If Shenmue were a more cerebral character piece about Ryo's mental state and moral code, then it is failing spectacularly at conveying the psychological depth and complexity needed to sustain such a character/narrative over such a long period. Ryo is a blank slate hero's journey character, not a Hemmingway protagonist.

That being said, it really sounds like you would enjoy Better Call Saul, you should check it out.

If you want to miss the forest for the trees, then be my guest. I can't stop you. It just sounds to me like you could get a lot more enjoyment out of this style of media if you learned how to interpret things for yourselves, instead of worrying about whether or not there will be a "cool payoff."

Again, Shenmue is an adventure/mystery story and mysteries are written with payoffs. It's not my only interest in the series but, as it stands right now, the Shenmue story is incomplete without resolution to the plot points I laid out, whatever form that takes.

He suggests in interviews that Ryo comes to a realization that he's no longer alone through much closer bonds with the people traveling with him (Shenhua and Ren, for now at least), which triggers a sense of hollowness in his pursuit for revenge. This is consistent with the poem used in early promotions, and printed in the OST book.

So he just lets the CYM get the treasure once he makes enough friends? Yeah, no.

This is a matter of interpretation, by the way. Alice begins in the Looking-glass House by describing it to Dinah as if it were a real place. Dodgson wrote the stories for the daughter of his college's dean (Alice Liddell), probably to represent the imagination of a child, and to inspire hers. Also, none of the plot is "explicit," and Alice 'wakes up' shaking one of Dinah's kittens that she had perceived to be The Red Queen. That's the point, and there's a whole world of surrealist fiction that spends most of its time obfuscating details.

Alice in Wonderland makes it quite clear that she's in the real world first, and then travels to Wonderland; it's true that Through the Looking Glass isn't clear about this, but it is a semi-sequel and, again, clearly a fantasy world where our rules don't apply. Shenmue is not attempting to do this at all. Ryo symbolically leaves the relative safety of his hometown and enters a new and unfamiliar world (to him) but that world is still a real place at a real point in history.

 

[hmjohnny]

I'm aware of Lewis Carroll's background, but since hyperbole doesn't seem to be understood here, I'll try to summarize more clearly: Just because the meaning behind certain narrative elements is not clear to someone, on its face, does not make the writing poor. The meaning behind good symbols in literature is not often explained to the last detail (if at all). The mirrors are symbolic, the treasure is, likely, symbolic (Lan Di's pearl of wisdom; it's even there in the scroll), the tree is symbolic, and they fit into motifs centered on Chinese mythologies. You don't read The Old Man and the Sea, and say, 'Yeah, that was written really poorly because the old man didn't accomplish anything, and we didn't even find out any real details about the marlin or the sharks,' do you? If so, then it seems like you really haven't learned how to interact with meaningful stories.

If you want to miss the forest for the trees, then be my guest. I can't stop you. It just sounds to me like you could get a lot more enjoyment out of this style of media if you learned how to interpret things for yourselves, instead of worrying about whether or not there will be a "cool payoff."

Alright, first off I apologize if I was coming across as antagonistic but as you say, hyperbole doesn't come across here, and your initial remark comes across as snarky and tremendously bad faith.

I'll engage with you on this since you seem to have laid out your argument much better and make some good points but I still think you are missing the mark on a few important things.

For the record, I'm a fan of the Alice books and think they are both great linguistically and really clever. What I love about them is both how whimsical they are and how precise and controlled the language is. I do think however that it's a bad analogy to compare them to Shenmue. For one, the audiences are different. Secondly, those books are far more surreal and not concerned with telling a structured story. Shenmue has much more in common with the traditional epic than anything like that.

Neither myself nor OP are saying that Shenmue doesn't have symbolism. I'm not expecting an explanation on the importance of why the snow turned to rain. On the other hand Shenmue is not overly concerned with being subtle on its main plot either. Yes, Lan Di has the pearl of wisdom and his dragon is five-toed rather than four indicating he sees himself as an emperor. On the other hand all the CYM leaders have Di in their name so they literally (and figuratively) see themselves as emperors.

I think we may be talking past each other here. Obviously some of the story will not have a payoff, some if it is more symbolic or thematic. There is no way the mirrors or the treasure is though. It's very obvious that the mirrors are a literal treasure map, and that they lead to something - maybe not something supernatural, or even very profound, but it would be bad storytelling at this point if there was no payoff for such a major plot thread.

I'm sure I don't know. That's already been determined by the writers group Suzuki put together for VFRPG. He suggests in interviews that Ryo comes to a realization that he's no longer alone through much closer bonds with the people traveling with him (Shenhua and Ren, for now at least), which triggers a sense of hollowness in his pursuit for revenge. This is consistent with the poem used in early promotions, and printed in the OST book.

In the poem it suggests that Ryo loses his way after the battle with Lan Di. He has built his current identity around revenge so much that after he gets (or it's robbed from him) he has nothing left. This is hinted at in S3 when Ryo implies that he doesn't expect to live or at least sees no future for himself.

Thematically it's great. It ties in with the adventure, with Iwao's last words, and adds a degree of depth to the character. It's also been heavily foreshadowed and, like other plot threads, wouldn't make sense if it didn't play out.

I was more responding to your original notion that Shenmue doesn't have a predetermined plot. It's obvious this story is framed around a mystery and the unfolding of that mystery is very deliberate on Suzuki's part.

This is a matter of interpretation, by the way. Alice begins in the Looking-glass House by describing it to Dinah as if it were a real place. Dodgson wrote the stories for the daughter of his college's dean (Alice Liddell), probably to represent the imagination of a child, and to inspire hers. Also, none of the plot is "explicit," and Alice 'wakes up' shaking one of Dinah's kittens that she had perceived to be The Red Queen. That's the point, and there's a whole world of surrealist fiction that spends most of its time obfuscating details. So either those stories have no merit because a lot of the details don't add up, or you just don't acknowledge the aspects of stories that go beyond raw plot and exposition. Personally, I think it's the latter, and I'd argue that those aspects are what's most important to a story.

Shenmue is not surrealist literature. It's much closer to an action/adventure/mystery story. In a mystery there is usually some kind of payoff. I'm not saying everything needs to be explained, but the plot lines need to be resolved.

You may not personally care if certain plot lines get resolved or not. I would venture to guess majority of the people would wonder what the point of introducing Ziming is for example if he never makes an appearance in the story.

 

[hmjohnny]

Just realized OP and I posted almost the same thing at almost the same time