What Story Remains for Shenmue to End?

[iknifaugood]

Just because the meaning behind certain narrative elements is not clear to someone, on its face, does not make the writing poor.

Just to address this point more clearly, because I think I'm coming across as the "plot hole nazi" and that's not at all what I'm saying. A story where all the elements don't add up is bad when the story fails to properly convey what it's about. The Sopranos, for instance, famously ends ambiguously without letting us know Tony's fate--that's not bad writing because the story isn't about whether or not Tony survives (and, in fact, holds the audience accountable for wanting such a judgement). If Shenmue doesn't end up showing what the mirrors actually do, that would be OK as long as we understand why all the elements currently established about them add up. So we need to know what the CYM want to achieve with it and why Iwao thought it was worth bringing them to Japan; what the characters think they do and how it motivates them is far more important than what the mirrors actually do and, atm, we don't have all that information. That's what makes the story incomplete.

It just sounds to me like you could get a lot more enjoyment out of this style of media if you learned how to interpret things for yourselves, instead of worrying about whether or not there will be a "cool payoff."

I like stories where things are left open for interpretation as long as it's deliberate and adds something but, atm, that's not what Shenmue is. Do I expect a character to sit Ryo down and explain exactly what the CYM's motivations are? Of course not. But there are other ways to handle exposition and, atm, Shenmue hasn't done any of that yet. There is simply not enough information about the CYM to describe one way or the other what they want to do--that's the difference between something that's left open to interpretation and something that's just left unexplained.

I'm curious as to what "style of media" you consider Shenmue, as we clearly view the series from different reference points.

 

[Machsi]

Iknifaugood, you literally have me hooked and binge reading every single post on this thread. This is literally the most insightful Shenmue analysis I’ve read in a while. I actually (in my personal artistic vision) had a completely different idea of how the plot of Shenmue III would look - definitely would see the urgency of this games’ success putting the very continued existence of the series at risk .... So would hit the plot hard and heavy with twists and turns. Then I realize, oh wait, Red Snakes bad, grind for scroll and do simple QTE to end bad guy.
I am relatively hopeful Shenmue IV can please improve the story and try to fix what was broken with the plot, I still have fears of another S3 experience though.

 

[iknifaugood]

Iknifaugood, you literally have me hooked and binge reading every single post on this thread. This is literally the most insightful Shenmue analysis I’ve read in a while. I actually (in my personal artistic vision) had a completely different idea of how the plot of Shenmue III would look - definitely would see the urgency of this games’ success putting the very continued existence of the series at risk .... So would hit the plot hard and heavy with twists and turns. Then I realize, oh wait, Red Snakes bad, grind for scroll and do simple QTE to end bad guy.
I am relatively hopeful Shenmue IV can please improve the story and try to fix what was broken with the plot, I still have fears of another S3 experience though.

Thanks! I think it was a huge missed opportunity to have S3 hedge its bets story-wise; this was the moment when the most eyes would be on the franchise and S3 leans into all the stuff that people made fun of in the first place. It felt to me like Suzuki was spinning his wheels, leaving his options open to scale the story based on how well S3 performed but after this latest interview, who knows?

 

[hmjohnny]

After the last interview it feels like Suzuki is much more interested in the simulation and world aspects of Shenmue than anything else. He's a tech head and engineer, his priorities are pushing the cutting edge not telling stories.

Unfortunately he'll never be given the budget nor the means to push the envelope again so he needs to decide what is really important to Shenmue going forward.

 

[iknifaugood]

He's a tech head and engineer, his priorities are pushing the cutting edge not telling stories.

Nothing about Shenmue 3 is pushing the cutting edge.

Unfortunately he'll never be given the budget nor the means to push the envelope again so he needs to decide what is really important to Shenmue going forward.

Unfortunately "being on the bleeding edge" may have been what was most important to him about Shenmue, and all the story set up was a result of investing in good writers who are no longer on the project. 20 years is several eternities in the games industry; Shenmue had the best graphics for like a year when it came out, then we were swamped with the likes of MGS2, FFX, Halo etc. The days of the "best looking game" and the "biggest game" being one and the same are long gone. Games focus on different things now and it's hard to tell if Suzuki really gets that.

 

[hmjohnny]

Absolutely nothing about Shenmue 3 is pushing the cutting edge of anything except maybe the player's patience.

I meant looking back at his career that's what Suzuki has always done. Obviously he doesn't have that opportunity anymore.

Games focus on different things now and it's hard to tell if Suzuki really gets that.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at. Suzuki not playing games was a benefit for him in the 80's and 90's as trends hadn't been fully established. Now that games are no longer purely technology focused and gameplay has been refined and figured out there is less room for innovation and more need for design. It seems Suzuki lacks that. His most recent interview raised several red flags that he may be out of touch in that regard.

 

[spud1897]

Absolutely nothing about Shenmue 3 is pushing the cutting edge of anything except maybe the player's patience.

Shenmue 3 isn't cutting edge, agreed. Using that aggressive tone to convey that isn't happening. Drop that tone

 

[iknifaugood]

Shenmue 3 isn't cutting edge, agreed. Using that aggressive tone to convey that isn't happening. Drop that tone

It was a joke, but point taken. I’ve edited the post.

Obviously he doesn't have that opportunity anymore.

He got to make a game for $20M. Cutting edge doesn’t necessarily mean only tech, martial arts is fertile, woefully under explored ground in games.

 

[Yokosuka]

Suzuki said he was obsessed by feedback, so he can't ignore the story has been a critical point for a fair number of fans.

He also watched a lot of movies to prepare Shenmue 3 so it's hard to imagine he overlooked so blatant flaws whether they are qualitative (art of building a story and generating curiosity) or quantitative (lack of revelations). We know he's definitely aware of the quantity issue.

While Suzuki was never so communicative about storytelling in 1999, he was still the brain leading the writing department as we saw in the NHK documentary. He might not be the one who gives the story its actual brilliance, but he's the one who likely invented its grammar.

Ok that being said there's still no guarantee he will fix all the issues story-wise but what I mean is that he isn't nobody neither in the creation process. Hopefully his sense of evaluation lead him to figure out the real problem between the three official writers - with some help of Yoshimoto maybe?

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

Speaking only for myself, there are several story elements that I would like to see have a conclusive answer to:

- What is the true purpose of the Mirrors? Are they a key to unlocking an ancient demon or treasure to resurrecting the Qing Dynasty? Or are they both? If these mirrors are worth killing people over then they must have a significant purpose in the story.

- Who is Shenhua and what is her role in the grand scheme of things? What is her connection to the Shenmue tree? Or to Luoyang?

- What is her and Ryo's role in the prophecy? Also is the prophecy literal or speaking in more abstract terms?

- How will Ryo's quest for vengeance end?

- Outside of being Xiuying's brother who inspired her to become a martial artist, who is Ziming, and what role does he play?

- What is the history between Iwao Hazuki and Sunming Zhao and their training with Master Feng?

- How is Ryo's character going to develop and mature throughout his adventures? Does he have a larger than life destiny ahead of him?

- Who are the Chi You Men? Outside of the power struggle between Niao Sun and Longsun Zhao, what is their ultimate goal? Who is Tentei? And who are the remaining members and what is their role in the end?

- And finally, what exactly is the Shenmue tree?

Some of these questions I was hoping would be answered in Shenmue III but sadly were not. Ironically Shenmue III teased some really interesting plotlines but didn't fully flesh them out. Things I hope will be resolved if we get future games.

 

[iknifaugood]

- What is the history between Iwao Hazuki and Sunming Zhao and their training with Master Feng?

I could be wrong but I'm assuming S3 is the last we'll see of Grandmaster Feng since he lives in Bailu Village. I would assume we'll encounter different masters that they trained under that may give us conflicting information on Iwao/Sunming but who knows? We still don't know where/when they met, just that Iwao was alone when he went to Kowloon and trained with Kai.

 

[Machsi]

Who are the Chi You Men? Outside of the power struggle between Niao Sun and Longsun Zhao what is their ultimate goal? Who is Tentei? And who are the remaining members and what is their role in the end?

This question is near and dear to me. I hope to god that the structure and hierarchy of the CYM is still a thing. One of the mysteries of Shenmue that drove me nuts with anticipation over the years was that old promotional art showing various shadowed members of the CYM. I hope that Shenmue 4 can bring back additional characters into the picture for the other heavenly beasts. Maybe an internal civil war with Niao Sun and one member vs Lan Di and the other one?

 

[24Nathan]

I wrote a similar thread here:

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-have-we-learned-in-shenmue-i-ii-and-iii.2566/

EDIT: And a follow up: https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-have-we-learned-so-far.2640/

 

[Peter]

As much as I don't want to admit it, where we stand now with Shenmue, something is starting to look very familiar to me. A path I have been down before, with another form of entertainment; television.

Specifically, my favourite television show of all time, Lost. I adored it from the first episode to the last, to the point where I have a Lost tattoo on my right arm, symmetrical to a Shenmue tattoo on my left. Like Shenmue, it's nowhere near as perfect as it believes itself to be, but when I truly love someone or something, I love it for what it is. Bad points and good.

The reason I say this feels like déjà vu to me, is because there are a lot of parallels between Lost and Shenmue, particularly from a fan base perspective. I would say Lost fans in their day were (or still are) as equally as crazy as us, theorising over every detail, and spending years arguing amongst themselves, from those who passionately love and defend the show to those who used to at one point, but became increasingly negative and tapped out due to its ending.

The difference is that despite Shenmue not reaching its ending yet, the similarities are already there. Fans at each others throats, passionately debating the mythology of the series, it's characters, differences to what was great about the franchise and how it either has changed for the better or for the worse. Lost also began to go a bit downhill during season 3. The writers didn't have an endgame, and because of this, they had to get ABC to agree to an endpoint, to get their focus back and come up with a structured narrative.

I decided to go back, and look up views about Lost in 2020, and I found a blog post which sums up the show after it had finished. I can't help feel, even with games still to come to wrap up the story, this this general sentiment will be how I look back on Shenmue when it's all over:

What made the show great, and ultimately an intellectual success, were the theories created by the viewers. The level of dialogue we experienced, the questions that were debates until the sun rose... That is where Lost succeeded. By showing us that we were just as lost as the creators themselves.
That our individual experience is the only thing of importance, that what we take away from it defines who we actually are.
Maybe the Island wasn't the heart of the show. Maybe the survivors weren' the blood that pumped into our oxygen starved cells. Maybe the rabid fanbase was that heart, and our experience observing the Island was where we found our own little slice of redemption. That will be Lost's legacy.

A convoluted story inside a manufactured box of mystery, a frivolous bow placed on top which posed as something deeper than what we initially believed. A failure of immeasurable magnitude from a storytelling standpoint. A failure in the endgame. And yet, an ultimate success. One that taught us we were survivors on the Island. That our thrust for a final answer wasn't what made the show special, it was our experiences that did.

Replace the show with the game, and the viewer with the player, and perhaps this is what the ultimate story of Shenmue could be. Perhaps it won't. But the saying goes that the journey is more important than the destination, and so far, the 20 year journey for me so far will forever tower above whatever ending Yu Suzuki has in store for Shenmue.

 

[code l name]

I decided to go back, and look up views about Lost in 2020, and I found a blog post which sums up the show after it had finished. I can't help feel, even with games still to come to wrap up the story, this this general sentiment will be how I look back on Shenmue when it's all over:

Replace the show with the game, and the viewer with the player, and perhaps this is what the ultimate story of Shenmue could be. Perhaps it won't. But the saying goes that the journey is more important than the destination, and so far, the 20 year journey for me so far will forever tower above whatever ending Yu Suzuki has in store for Shenmue.

While there are some parallels, especially considering the rabid nature of both fan bases I think ultimately your comparison doesn’t quite correct. The reason I say this was Lost from its inception was setup ultimately as a mystery box; what is the island, how did they survive the plane crash, where’s Christian shepherds body, smoke monster, Rousseau‘s radio transmission, how was Locke able to walk etc and the list goes on. So many mysterious were thrown at the viewer in first few episodes and it only grew from there.

Shenmue told a much simpler and direct story, although of course there’s mystery surrounding elements of the story and characters it fundamentally doesn’t use mystery and subterfuge as its crux story telling mechanism.

I should add I adored Lost when show first started and would spend hours after episode aired to discuss theories and read idle speculation by fan groups. However the last handful of seasons left such a bad taste in my mouth as they actively destroyed characters and wrote themselves in a hole. More egregious was the show runners Cuse and Lindelof were actively lying to the fan base. While Suzuki said there would be things covered in Shenmue 3 that didn’t come to fruition I don’t think he was near as duplicitous as those guys. I really encourage you to watch his 8 part review which touch on some of the broader issues of the show leading to the finale-

 

[iknifaugood]

Shenmue told a much simpler and direct story, although of course there’s mystery surrounding elements of the story and characters it fundamentally doesn’t use mystery and subterfuge as its crux story telling mechanism.

It's definitely not exactly the same as Lost but consider the opening cutscene of Shenmue where (if we include the prologue) 5 of the 8 plot threads I outlined are established or at least hinted at and Suzuki has consistently maintained that the original chapter structure has been planned out (at least back in the day). Obviously things are different now but I would suggest that, as of 2001, we had every reason to think that Suzuki knew where his story was heading just as much as we assumed the Lost writers did.

More egregious was the show runners Cuse and Lindelof were actively lying to the fan base. While Suzuki said there would be things covered in Shenmue 3 that didn’t come to fruition I don’t think he was near as duplicitous as those guys. I really encourage you to watch his 8 part review which touch on some of the broader issues of the show leading to the finale-

I'm not going to defend Cuse and Lindelof here but I will say that the realities of writing a network TV show of 20+ episodes per season, dealing with actors and scheduling conflicts, as well as TV budget and time constraints, places them in an unenviable position compared to Suzuki. I agree that Lost, without doubt, sold itself on the idea that everything (or at least most things) were planned and had a reason for existing but its primary goal was being a hit TV show that compelled millions of viewers to tune in every week, which is what caused most of the insane number of mysteries to be established in the first place. But let's not forget that Shenmue introduces itself as the first part of an 11 chapter epic with a poem that states "and thus the saga begins"; that sets some pretty high expectations for the story imo.

Replace the show with the game, and the viewer with the player, and perhaps this is what the ultimate story of Shenmue could be. Perhaps it won't. But the saying goes that the journey is more important than the destination, and so far, the 20 year journey for me so far will forever tower above whatever ending Yu Suzuki has in store for Shenmue.

I would say that Lost and Shenmue are very similar in that you kind of had to be there at the time. I have no idea what binging Lost on Netflix looks like without the waiting and speculation and Lostpedia articles; that stuff was almost as core to the experience as the actual show. It's hard to recommend the show because we know what does and doesn't get answered and it's almost impossible to let people just get (wait for it) lost in the show. Same thing for Shenmue; I have no idea what it would be like to play S1-3 without a 20 year wait. But if you had a Dreamcast at the time and you had the 1-2 punch of Shenmue 1 and 2 and that story really got its hooks into you, that's a rabbit hole that's very similar to what Lost was like. At least for me.

 

[code l name]

I'm not going to defend Cuse and Lindelof here but I will say that the realities of writing a network TV show of 20+ episodes per season, dealing with actors and scheduling conflicts, as well as TV budget and time constraints, places them in an unenviable position compared to Suzuki. I agree that Lost, without doubt, sold itself on the idea that everything (or at least most things) were planned and had a reason for existing but its primary goal was being a hit TV show that compelled millions of viewers to tune in every week. But let's not forget that Shenmue introduces itself as the first part of an 11 chapter epic with a poem that states "and thus the saga begins"; that sets some pretty high expectations for the story imo.

Oh I agree, there’s certain realities that unfounded changes will have to be done due to the realities of making a serialized TV show. However the number of lies they told including throwing an actress they cast under the bus yet never admitting any culpability is one of many examples of what I was getting at-

 

[iknifaugood]

Oh I agree, there’s certain realities that unfounded changes will have to be done due to the realities of making a serialized TV show. However the number of lies they told including throwing an actress they cast under the bus yet never admitting any culpability is one of many examples of what I was getting at-

This review series does a good job of demonstrating how: 1. Lost was made up as they were going (which was fairly obvious to anyone who knows how these things are made, especially pre-season 4 when they didn't even have an end date) and 2. the writers insisted that they had all the answers and told a number of lies in defense of that claim. These two pulled some dickish moves for sure, but Lost was still a highly entertaining show for most of its run despite these facts (the Constant remains one of the finest hours of TV ever produced). You could easily see someone making the same kind of video about claims Suzuki made about S3 and what ended up in the final product and it might be even more damning since he was asking for people's money based on the promises he made. But I don't like holding creators to impossible standards like that; the only exception is maybe Game of Thrones, where the showrunners deliberately sabotaged the ending so they could abandon ship ASAP (and even they have the excuse that they were only hired to adapt the books, not write them). Creating stuff is hard, I can't even imagine how hard it is when there's a rabid fanbase that probably knows more about what you created than you do. I'm definitely critical of the ending to Lost, GoT, and S3 but I would never go as far as to accuse the creators of being charlatans. Pretty much everything that guy says in his review of Lost is spot on but, at the same time, he has a very narrow focus: that the producers didn't have a plan and lied about it; which, OK but that doesn't automatically make the entire show bad. Just like S3 moving the story at a snail's pace doesn't automatically make Shenmue 2 bad.

I adored it from the first episode to the last, to the point where I have a Lost tattoo on my right arm, symmetrical to a Shenmue tattoo on my left.

What are the tats of?

 

[SMDzero]

I never really cared to watch Lost. I saw a TV clip once of the fat guy saying "There's no food dude" and I just wasn't interested in ever watching a show like that.

Regarding Shenmue, it does suck that sometimes a story will create a multiple story threads and then struggle to close them all.

However, we should not push the author to answer EVERYTHING because (if forced) the answers will disappoint. Just look at the mess that was MGS4, another fan service game where Hideo Kojima was forced to answer all the questions of the series.

 

[hmjohnny]

Just like S3 moving the story at a snail's pace doesn't automatically make Shenmue 2 bad.

S3 alone doesn't take away from S2 (especially because nothing in it "breaks" the story). However, I would say S4 and definitely the ending could take away from the previous games.

I compared it to the Matrix in a previous thread. After coming out of the theatre for Reloaded I was basically on the fence about it. Mostly because it was an unfinished film whose success depended on how the plot threads set up in played out in the sequel. Well we got Matrix Revolutions and GoT and Lost etc., etc.

I'm not saying it completely negates what came before it but it definitely takes away. I have no interest to go back and watch any of those series. I certainly wouldn't recommend them knowing how they play out.

The comparison of Shenmue to Lost isn't exactly apt, but it does make me feel like Lost all over again. This is not a good feeling for me.

Shenmue should not be looked at as a series but as a single story. More so since (apparently) this story was written and planned out from the beginning. Even though there have been revisions, I trust that Suzuki does know where he's going at least in broad strokes. This means that you can't really look at it as single installments as far as the story goes. The things that were good about Shenmue 2 would fall flat if they didn't play out properly later on.

I've replayed S2 more than any other game. If Shenmue ends up sucking in the end I won't ever play it, or any other Shenmue game, again.

Sorry to say but everything hangs on how the rest of the story plays out and right now I'm feeling queasy.