Where U think the source of Haters originated from???

Since I am clearly slower than you, is your issue that they had to outsource at all? Well I’m not sure how they could make the game of your dreams with $7 million and use a completely Japanese staff so I’m still not really getting your point as it relates to Shenmue 3.
I can't help you. You're attributing an opinion to me that I don't have. All of the clues to figuring this out are outlined sequentially in this thread. Use the tools god gave you to figure it out. Have a good one.
 
Nah read the tone of post. Why not say something more succinct or appropriate.

Anyway backseat moderating isn't happening either consider that a warning.
Because he or she is voicing an opinion probably fueled by emotion. You took the bait and made it into something else. Especially for a moderator, it seems like unnecessary escalation.

No idea what you're talking about in that last statement nor is it worth the effort to figure out.

Furthermore, you guys would better serve the community by taking these things to personal messages and deleting the posts if it violates the rules or conduct rather than polluting the thread and in this case encouraging derailing of it.

I have nothing more to contribute. Peace.
 
Because he or she is voicing an opinion probably fueled by emotion. You took the bait and made it into something else. Especially for a moderator, it seems like unnecessary escalation.

No idea what you're talking about in that last statement nor is it worth the effort to figure out.

Furthermore, you guys would better serve the community by taking these things to personal messages and deleting the posts if it violates the rules or conduct rather than polluting the thread and in this case encouraging derailing of it.

I have nothing more to contribute. Peace.
Just for reference we keep the messages up for transparency purposes so that other users can see what equalled the escalation. Whether meant innocently or not we encourage posters to take consideration when posting and this clearly didn't

The comment in question was discussed by several mods and action taken accordingly. If you don't like it feel free to PM one of us but the subjects closed.
 
Sure thing, SCQ.

No one's running anyone off for 'not liking Shenmue 3' or thinking 'it's not that great.' There's criticism all over the place and I don't see anyone suggesting it shouldn't be posted. It just happens all these holier than thou veterans who hate us braindead n00bz who enjoy Shenmue 3 seem to think they shouldn't be spoken back to when they call someone a 'bumbling jackass' for enjoying Shenmue 3.
That isn't the point he's making. But I suppose you just want to hear what you want anyway.
 
Give the virtue signaling a rest.

I can't help you. You're attributing an opinion to me that I don't have. All of the clues to figuring this out are outlined sequentially in this thread. Use the tools god gave you to figure it out. Have a good one.

Because he or she is voicing an opinion probably fueled by emotion. You took the bait and made it into something else. Especially for a moderator, it seems like unnecessary escalation.

No idea what you're talking about in that last statement nor is it worth the effort to figure out.

Furthermore, you guys would better serve the community by taking these things to personal messages and deleting the posts if it violates the rules or conduct rather than polluting the thread and in this case encouraging derailing of it.

I have nothing more to contribute. Peace.

Le Champion, doesn't appreciate backseat moderating, toxic behavior or passive/direct aggressiveness towards the decent
members of this board. Drink a little bit of the bubbly, reflect on your actions and come back in 24 hours with a better attitude

You're welcome

chris-jericho-aew-pool-bubbly.jpg
 
You didn’t strike any of his nerves ma
Hark at this bloke handwaving away 24 million dollars like it's nothing. :ROFLMAO:
I already specified that they used a self made engine, the game was 40x it's size and they actually hired actors who knew what the fuck they were doing and the game also had easily 40x more dialogue to be acted.
Absolutely disgusting comment. Jesus christ.
Lol what?! You're going to denie India is not a low wage country?
 
I already specified that they used a self made engine, the game was 40x it's size

both those points have already been countered though. The engine wasn’t built from scratch for the Witcher 3. It was a refined iteration from an already existing engine they had used in previous games. And while the map is huge, a lot of it is rural, not that populated and very samey overall. These points were made before so whichever way you spin it, 3x the budget Shenmue 3 had makes a massive difference. That’s if that figure is even accurate as it’s claimed the budget for TW3 was much higher than that.
 
I already specified that they used a self made engine, the game was 40x it's size and they actually hired actors who knew what the fuck they were doing and the game also had easily 40x more dialogue to be acted.
Lol what?! You're going to denie India is not a low wage country?

Man, I'm brazilian and I work for IBM. I had the opportunity to go 3 times to U.S this year and when I got to the IBM in Austin and in Raleigh I was surprised how many indian people work there. Then I started hanging out with the guys, and met a lot of their friends who work for other companies like Amazon, Cisco, etc...

The conclusion I got from this, without people from india we wouldn't have IBM, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, etc... And if you look what are the companies that move the U.S economy you will see that most of them are these companies... I think we who like tech and specially you guys from U.S should be very grateful to have them on your side.
 
Ys Net outsourcing to a company that also worked on Gears 5, Uncharted, and MGSV seems like the least of the game’s issues. And they weren’t coders, so whatever point you made was irrelevant anyway.
 
But.....nobody liked Waterworld. Literally no one.
plenty of people liked Shenmue
Waterworld has a cult following, especially developed one during its home video release. Shenmue is kind of the same, looking at the KS it has a relatively small following.

That being said, it's an imperfect analogy and it was Jim Sterling who made it, I'm just piggybacking on it for comparison.
I mean...Final Fantasy VII did the same thing do you remember its advertisements? If Shenmue's was 'pretentious' then what were FF VII's? Its only because FF VII succeeded that we don't care to remember how pretentious their commercials were. But they were. All 100 million worth of them. Money well spent though.
FF7's were pretty pretentious. That being said it wasn't selling itself as something more than a JRPG. It also had the Final Fantasy name associated to it which was a big hit already with a huge following and it was an established genre that people knew to expect. Also, it delivered on being a great game. Shenmue 1 had none of that going for it.
Some games succeed some fail. Its just the way it is. Same with movies. Martin Scorsese took 25 years to make the movie Silence, a passion project of his. Cost 50 million to make. Did 25 million at the box office. Should we say then that it sucked? Because of sales?
Kojima got mad and disrespected Americans for 'not understanding Death Stranding' (because all they like are FPS.....I guess thats why Nintendo games are so popular in the West?); the same country he adores because of Hollywood; praises Italy and France for having a much more refined sense for 'high art'. Was all that necessary? Death Stranding sold a little over 200k in Japan so far. I guess the Japanese are also culturally tone deaf by his standards?
Definitely. I'm not saying Shenmue sucked (obviously I'm posting here), but I am trying to determine why it has so many haters. There is a difference between a movie that is well regarded but sells poorly and one that is lambasted years later, where the fan base is mocked and memes are made about how bad it is (even in jest).

like Jim Sterling sometimes but sometimes he's off his fat rocker. This is the guy that swears up and down about Dynasty Warriors. Of course I get that its a guilty pleasure of his but still...
He also bashed DW9 though to hell, which to be fair had its problems for sure, but at least KT for once tried to do something different for a change, and he hated Mad Max which made no sense because that game was great. One thing he is right about is Konami sucks.
I personally don't like Jim Sterling that much, but he is right about certain things time to time. I've always said people like him (and Yahtzee etc.) are more entertainers than critics.
Waterworld and Postman were actually very good movies that both suffered from many conjectures (too much marketing for the first one, deceptive marketing for the second).
I actually unironically like The Postman, but I also get why it isn't a great movie.
However I wouldn't compare Waterworld with Shenmue too much. Waterworld only executed well a formula with some original variations. Shenmue was revolutionary
I agree, I was originally comparing it to Daikatana, although that is also an imperfect analogy. Shenmue is unique and trying to compare it to other works won't ever work out perfectly. I'm just trying to build off the analogies that were put forth by others.

My point being that Shenmue was a commercial failure for several reasons we already know (limited DC base, XBOX exclusive etc.) but that is different than a game that has garnered so much mockery and hate from the gaming community to extend into making fun of the fanbase itself (see Yahtzee's latest on Shenmue 3).

I think the reason for this, while not fair, is based on the fact that Shenmue was hyped up as something but just didn't deliver. This coupled with too many memeable moments (like the bad English dub) and the hardcore, devout fanbase, turned the general gaming community against us.

However, these are only my best guesses I don't actually know why something like this happened, and social consequences/norms are often complex and nuanced there could be many more factors into why this was the case.

I do know that I am little tired of hearing critics and gaming media criticize in bad faith to get those clicks at the expense of the "triggered" Shenmue fanbase.
 
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FF7's were pretty pretentious. That being said it wasn't selling itself as something more than a JRPG. It was trying to align itself to Hollywood movies. Watch the commercials again. I posted a compilation one here before

woah what? Those two sentences don't go together right. FF VII absolutely was selling itself more than a JRPG.
JRPG wasn't even a term back in 1997. People just called them rpgs and the mainstream who avoided rpgs had no idea wtf it was.
Hell, I remember going into Blockbuster video to rent games during the SNES days and having no idea wtf "Final Fantasy III" (aka FF VI) was. All I know is I usually just passed by it and avoided it like the plague because of the moogle front and center on the cover thinking it was some kinda fake Mario or Sonic platformer lol.
When people saw the full motion FMV CGI commercials of FF VII and the grandious narration in them, they were definitely intrigued to the point of 'wtf is this?? wow". Thats how it sold so much


It also had the Final Fantasy name associated to it which was a big hit already with a huge following and it was an established genre that people knew to expect. Also, it delivered on being a great game. Shenmue 1 had none of that going for it.

from a mainstream standpoint, Final Fantasy was only big in Japan at that point. FF I through "III" (I, II, VI) was not "a bit hit" at all in the West. Yes VII delivered a great game, but Shenmue 1 was also a great game. The difference was the latter was released on a failing console despite it still selling 1.2m copies and 5th best selling game on it. The former had 100 million marketing budget released on one of the most popular consoles of all time.

Definitely. I'm not saying Shenmue sucked (obviously I'm posting here), but I am trying to determine why it has so many haters. There is a difference between a movie that is well regarded but sells poorly and one that is lambasted years later, where the fan base is mocked and memes are made about how bad it is (even in jest).

Shenmue takes patience. At its heart its a point and click adventure game
Around that time the only one of those that got praise was MYST. Yes Shenmue had action in it but the majority of the time you were walking around in a simulated world investigating. Mizzurna Falls for PS1 was the only other game at its time somewhat similar but that was an obscure release for PS1 in Japan. Yet it had open world just the same and even open world 3D driving before GTA did.
Anyways most people lack patience so its easy to see why haters would surface. We live in an A.D.D. afflicted world now. People want instant gratification. Especially Westerners.
 
woah what? Those two sentences don't go together right.
I think you merged two different comments from different posters. What I originally said was:
FF7's were pretty pretentious. That being said it wasn't selling itself as something more than a JRPG. It also had the Final Fantasy name associated to it which was a big hit already with a huge following and it was an established genre that people knew to expect. Also, it delivered on being a great game. Shenmue 1 had none of that going for it
JRPG wasn't even a term back in 1997. People just called them rpgs and the mainstream who avoided rpgs had no idea wtf it was.
Hell, I remember going into Blockbuster video to rent games during the SNES days and having no idea wtf "Final Fantasy III" (aka FF VI) was. All I know is I usually just passed by it and avoided it like the plague because of the moogle front and center on the cover thinking it was some kinda fake Mario or Sonic platformer lol.
I'm not sure when the term JRPG was coined, what I meant was RPG, but JPRG's of that style were a genre prior to the term being coined.

I'm not sure how old you are but I was a kid in '97 and I knew what RPG's were. I actually rented Final Fantasy 2 (4) some years prior and it was what properly introduced me to the genre. I definitely knew the FF series and so did many of my friends so we knew what kind of game FF7 was going to be before it came out. Not to mention other Squaresoft hits on the SNES like Super Mario RPG or Chrono Trigger.
When people saw the full motion FMV CGI commercials of FF VII and the grandious narration in them, they were definitely intrigued to the point of 'wtf is this?? wow". Thats how it sold so much
Absolutely, the cool pre-rendered videos were mind blowing back then, especially because 3D was so new. As you mention they threw a lot behind the marketing and it worked.
from a mainstream standpoint, Final Fantasy was only big in Japan at that point. FF I through "III" (I, II, VI) was not "a bit hit" at all in the West. Yes VII delivered a great game, but Shenmue 1 was also a great game. The difference was the latter was released on a failing console despite it still selling 1.2m copies and 5th best selling game on it. The former had 100 million marketing budget released on one of the most popular consoles of all time.
You're right. Final Fantasy wasn't that popular in the west, which is why they threw such a huge budget behind the marketing.

Side Note: $100M seems large, Wikipedia says the marketing budget was $40M worldwide with half of that in NA, but it's large nonetheless.

I don't agree that Shenmue 1 was a great game, that's the problem with it. It has a great game in it, bloated by filler and lack of QOL features that were virtually all remediated by Shenmue 2. It was carried by its technological prowess quite a bit when it came out but even as 14/15 year old at the time who liked it, I didn't think it was a great game. However, it did have great potential which is why I stuck around for the sequel and remain a fan today.

Both games sold well on hype and marketing (1.2M on the DC's limited base is quite good) but only one of those games has a lasting legacy. There is a reason there isn't 1.2M Shenmue fans today. Again, this isn't about why Shenmue failed financially, but why its legacy remains tarnished and mocked.
Shenmue takes patience. At its heart its a point and click adventure game
Around that time the only one of those that got praise was MYST. Yes Shenmue had action in it but the majority of the time you were walking around in a simulated world investigating. Mizzurna Falls for PS1 was the only other game at its time somewhat similar but that was an obscure release for PS1 in Japan. Yet it had open world just the same and even open world 3D driving before GTA did.
Anyways most people lack patience so its easy to see why haters would surface. We live in an A.D.D. afflicted world now. People want instant gratification. Especially Westerners.
I actually agree that it is an adventure game more than an RPG, though it is an action adventure game, not like the P&C games which were more puzzle focused. A lot of those games were well praised but it wasn't a popular genre. The only reason Myst sold well was because of the graphics and the fact that it was the first CD-ROM game.

Mizurna Falls has more in common with Deadly Premonition than Shenmue. Lots of games require patience though, some of which are fairly popular. Thing is, Shenmue was advertised as this epic adventure story, not as a life simulator which is what Shenmue 1 ended up resembling.

I also wonder whether Shenmue ever could have been a mainstream success if things had gone differently. If Shenmue 1 was a little tighter in pacing, if it was released on PS2 etc. In the end you may be right though, it was an adventure game at heart, and though I am an avid fan of that genre, it was a genre that died out.
 
I think you merged two different comments from different posters. What I originally said was:
FF7's were pretty pretentious. That being said it wasn't selling itself as something more than a JRPG. It also had the Final Fantasy name associated to it which was a big hit already with a huge following and it was an established genre that people knew to expect. Also, it delivered on being a great game. Shenmue 1 had none of that going for it

The bolded part is why I replied to you. It was selling itself as something more than a JRPG.
And the Final Fantasy name in the West was not a big thing (yet) so it absolutely was not banking on the name prestige it had in Japan as most Western mainstream gamers did not know or care about Final Fantasy at that point or RPGs in general.

I'm not sure when the term JRPG was coined, what I meant was RPG, but JPRG's of that style were a genre prior to the term being coined.

Not a popular genre at all. Certainly not one selling 7 million copies globally.

I'm not sure how old you are but I was a kid in '97 and I knew what RPG's were. I actually rented Final Fantasy 2 (4) some years prior and it was what properly introduced me to the genre. I definitely knew the FF series and so did many of my friends so we knew what kind of game FF7 was going to be before it came out. Not to mention other Squaresoft hits on the SNES like Super Mario RPG or Chrono Trigger.

You did not represent the majority. FF VII and (racing game: Gran Tursimo and fighting game Tekken 3 and stealth game MGS) were all titles that grabbed the attention of not only mainstream gamers outside the niches, but of NON gamers as well. There were people that literally bought consoles for those games that didnt even game before.




Side Note: $100M seems large, Wikipedia says the marketing budget was $40M worldwide with half of that in NA, but it's large nonetheless.

45 million development budget
100 million marketing budget

I don't agree that Shenmue 1 was a great game, that's the problem with it. It has a great game in it, bloated by filler and lack of QOL features that were virtually all remediated by Shenmue 2. It was carried by its technological prowess quite a bit when it came out but even as 14/15 year old at the time who liked it, I didn't think it was a great game. However, it did have great potential which is why I stuck around for the sequel and remain a fan today.

Well your opinion aside, many thought it was a great game and its proof of that was how it influenced and inspired many other games. I consider honestly Shenmue 1 & 2 the same game just split up in chapters after all they were both developed for the Sega Saturn at the same time before being moved over to the Dreamcast.


I actually agree that it is an adventure game more than an RPG, though it is an action adventure game, not like the P&C games which were more puzzle focused. A lot of those games were well praised but it wasn't a popular genre. The only reason Myst sold well was because of the graphics and the fact that it was the first CD-ROM game.

Sekiro is an action adventure game. Uncharted is an action adventure game. World of difference between those and Shenmue right? Thats because those are faster paced. Shenmue's pace is that of a P&C/Adv title and that will turn off people who want faster paced instant gratification stuff.

Mizurna Falls has more in common with Deadly Premonition than Shenmue. Lots of games require patience though, some of which are fairly popular. Thing is, Shenmue was advertised as this epic adventure story, not as a life simulator which is what Shenmue 1 ended up resembling.

No it definitely was advertised as both. We even got demos as such. What is Shenmue demo and the EU Shenmue 2 demo on XBox. People knew what they were getting into.

it was a genre that died out.


Not really. We got Deadly Premonition, Indigo Prophecy, Dreamfall, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls, Detroit, Life is Strange, Until Dawn, Murdered: Souls Suspect, L.A. Noire, Another Code R, Disaster Report series, City Shrouded in Shadow, Phase Paradox, Rahxephon, Gunbuster, and plenty of first person indie ones this gen
 
The bolded part is why I replied to you. It was selling itself as something more than a JRPG.
And the Final Fantasy name in the West was not a big thing (yet) so it absolutely was not banking on the name prestige it had in Japan as most Western mainstream gamers did not know or care about Final Fantasy at that point or RPGs in general
In the west no, but in Japan it was a big name.

For the western market they were definitely trying to capitalize on graphics and presentation to sell the game. It's the reason they only show pre-rendered stuff in the commercials. I agree with you there.
Not a popular genre at all. Certainly not one selling 7 million copies globally
FF6 sold 2.5M copies at launch in Japan. So no, it was not the success of FF7, but they were still popular games.
45 million development budget
100 million marketing budget
Sources don't agree on this. Wikipedia puts it at $40M US, which is still large. $100M at the time seems too big, but whatever it was, it was a huge budget for sure.
You did not represent the majority.
Fair enough. My evidence was anecdotal. However, to say gamers didn't know about RPG's in the west isn't true. Super Mario RPG was really popular in NA. Even Final Fantasy sold decently, but lacked the really wide, mainstream appeal at the time.
FF VII and (racing game: Gran Tursimo and fighting game Tekken 3 and stealth game MGS) were all titles that grabbed the attention of not only mainstream gamers outside the niches, but of NON gamers as well. There were people that literally bought consoles for those games that didnt even game before.
The PS did bring a lot of games to the mainstream. It did this because a) it had a lot of good games b) it came out at a time when 3D was making its big splash and c)really good marketing on Sony's part.

As I mentioned I wonder if Shenmue would have been more successful and had a larger fanbase if it was released on PS2.
Well your opinion aside, many thought it was a great game and its proof of that was how it influenced and inspired many other games. I consider honestly Shenmue 1 & 2 the same game just split up in chapters after all they were both developed for the Sega Saturn at the same time before being moved over to the Dreamcast.
I never said Shenmue wasn't influential. I actually think it's a very influential game, and a lot of developers have cited it.

However, saying many thought it was great is sadly not true. If it were the case we wouldn't have this conversation. Shenmue 1 sold 1.2M copies on the Dreamcast, but what is its legacy? Even as the most KS game of all time it only had 80k backers and that's included the slacker campaign. What happened to the other 1.1M people who bought it? Never mind all the people who didn't buy it but played it at a friend's, myself included, or pirated it (another reason DC failed, remember that boot disc?).
Sekiro is an action adventure game. Uncharted is an action adventure game. World of difference between those and Shenmue right? Thats because those are faster paced. Shenmue's pace is that of a P&C/Adv title and that will turn off people who want faster paced instant gratification stuff.
I don't think Sekiro or Uncharted are adventure games, but semantics aside there is no reason an adventure game has to be slow paced. Shenmue 2 is decently fast paced and filled with action, a lot of people still hate it. I get that it's not DMC or whatever, but most RPG's are at least as slow paced or more, often with far more grindy aspects. Dragon's Quest is starting to get mainstream appeal in the west and it's not exactly for the impatient.

Shenmue definitely has parts of it that require patience, and that works best when it's aligned with its story i.e. carrying the books or catching leaves. I think that when a lot of people say that Shenmue requires patience though they are more referring to Shenmue 1's sometimes poor pacing, and far worse, forced waiting. The latter of which is just bad game design; full stop. I can't defend it even though it's in a Shenmue game and there is a reason why S2 and 3 don't have it.

There will always be people who don't like slow paced things, but I think that slow paced often gets conflated with boring and it doesn't have to be. Shenmue as a series showcases both sides of this at one point or another. People who don't like it just couldn't get hooked by the other redeeming qualities, unfortunately in spite of it.
Not really. We got Deadly Premonition, Indigo Prophecy, Dreamfall, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls, Detroit, Life is Strange, Until Dawn, Murdered: Souls Suspect, L.A. Noire, Another Code R, Disaster Report series, City Shrouded in Shadow, Phase Paradox, Rahxephon, Gunbuster, and plenty of first person indie ones this gen
Fair enough. But most of those games mix elements of other genres in to keep the game engaging to modern audiences. the traditional point and click adventure games or their equivalents i.e. Grim Fandango etc. did die out. There's a reason LucasArts and Sierra don't make them anymore.
 
In the west no, but in Japan it was a big name.
FF6 sold 2.5M copies at launch in Japan. So no, it was not the success of FF7, but they were still popular games.


My point was globally. Globally FF wasnt popular yet at the time.
We could make the same argument for Dragon Quest which sold ridiculous numbers in Japan too but the first three games localized in the West did not, hence their lack of interest in localizing the SNES DQ games.

Sources don't agree on this. Wikipedia puts it at $40M US, which is still large. $100M at the time seems too big, but whatever it was, it was a huge budget for sure.

Wikipedia isn't always accurate and can be altered. I forget where I originally sourced my info but the 45 million was Square's own budget money for development alone. The 100 million on top of that came from Sony for marketing. This was because they lured Square away from Nintendo after that humiliating split from Sony and Nintendo from their proposed Nintendo Playstation project.
Also even Sega of America had agreed to partner up with Sony around that time to make a console together but Sega of Japan refused, also mocking Sony. Mistakes and assumptions were made...

However, to say gamers didn't know about RPG's in the west isn't true. Super Mario RPG was really popular in NA. Even Final Fantasy sold decently, but lacked the really wide, mainstream appeal at the time.

I didnt say they were unknown. I said they weren't popular. Super Mario RPG was bought because it was Mario first and foremost. Also, it wasn't a Playstation game so there's that. Different audience. There were no high profile RPGs on the Playstation as of yet that were selling gangbusters.

As I mentioned I wonder if Shenmue would have been more successful and had a larger fanbase if it was released on PS2.


maybe. But the whole goal at that time for Sega was actually initially trying to get Microsoft to allow backwards compatibility for their Sega Dreamcast discs. When Microsoft didnt agree, they settled on allowing 11 Sega exclusives for the system launch, one of them being Shenmue 2.
For whatever reason, Virtua Fighter 4 was on PS2 instead of Xbox. I spoke about this a week ago or so and someone mentioned it was probably due to Dead or Alive 3's exclusivity deal with Microsoft funding that game and probably didnt want any direct competitors on its system. Though prior, Dead or Alive 2: Hardcore was on the PS2...


Shenmue 1 sold 1.2M copies on the Dreamcast, but what is its legacy? Even as the most KS game of all time it only had 80k backers and that's included the slacker campaign.
What happened to the other 1.1M people who bought it?

Too much time passed. Too much negativity within that time over the media. People moved on etc

Never mind all the people who didn't buy it but played it at a friend's, myself included, or pirated it (another reason DC failed, remember that boot disc?).

Nevermind the pirates. As mentioned in the past, it is said that in order for Shenmue to be a success and the DC not to die, everyone that owned a DC would have had to buy the game 3 times.

I don't think Sekiro or Uncharted are adventure games

They aren't.
You said Action Adventure. You didn't say Adventure.
Action Adventure is a different genre than Adventure. Those two are Action Adventure games.
Shenmue is an adventure game. There is some action in it to be sure; but it isn't enough overall to call it an action adventure game as the majority of your experience you are in adventure mode more than action mode.

but semantics aside there is no reason an adventure game has to be slow paced.

Most are.
In Japan, they use the term for even visual novels.

Shenmue 2 is decently fast paced and filled with action, a lot of people still hate it.

It absolutely is not. It is still very slow paced. In some instances I'd argue even more than the first due to how much bigger the environments are.

I get that it's not DMC or whatever, but most RPG's are at least as slow paced or more, often with far more grindy aspects. Dragon's Quest is starting to get mainstream appeal in the west and it's not exactly for the impatient.

no way. RPGs hit you with battles almost all the time how could you say they are slow paced? You fight right way in FF VI and FF VII and even in DQ XI

Shenmue definitely has parts of it that require patience, and that works best when it's aligned with its story i.e. carrying the books or catching leaves. I think that when a lot of people say that Shenmue requires patience though they are more referring to Shenmue 1's sometimes poor pacing, and far worse, forced waiting. The latter of which is just bad game design; full stop. I can't defend it even though it's in a Shenmue game and there is a reason why S2 and 3 don't have it.

Shenmue 2 absolutely has slow pace. The whole waiting for Chawang signs, the whole searching for the 4 Wude masters, the whole following NPCs when you dont know where to go etc. You're praising up Shenmue 2 while lamenting on Shenmue 1 when they both share the same qualities. Like I said, at times Shenmue 2 is even more slow paced than Shenmue 1 due to the size of its world.

There will always be people who don't like slow paced things, but I think that slow paced often gets conflated with boring and it doesn't have to be. Shenmue as a series showcases both sides of this at one point or another. People who don't like it just couldn't get hooked by the other redeeming qualities, unfortunately in spite of it.

True. Thats why I can say its 'a bad game'. Its just people didnt have the patience to fully appreciate and explore it.


Fair enough. But most of those games mix elements of other genres in to keep the game engaging to modern audiences. the traditional point and click adventure games or their equivalents i.e. Grim Fandango etc. did die out. There's a reason LucasArts and Sierra don't make them anymore.


Isnt Lucas Arts pretty much EA now? I wouldnt use them as an example

And Telltale games still exists forgot about them
 
The hate pre release is absolutely unjustified and deplorable, but marking the harsh comments post release as gratuitous hate is a big mistake.

The truth is it really isn’t a good game, both for the fans that cared about the story and non fans, and it didn’t do anything to gain some simpathy.

That’s of course just the general sentiment, if someone loved it then good for them.
 
If I could be arsed, I'd dig up a few comments claiming hatred for Call of Duty games from people who also say they don't play them. Probably woulda found some about FIFA n GTA along the way too.
 
That’s of course just the general sentiment, if someone loved it then good for them.

I don’t think that’s accurate at all. If you actually look at reviews in general, it’s had a positive reception by many. So no, I don’t believe that is the general sentiment. What it actually is, is again, passing opinion off as fact.
 
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