Why the story in Shenmue 3 is good/Why the story in Shenmue 3 is bad

[Reprise]

You can't simplify everything by saying that "it was a design choice" when the size of the team making these choices, as well as their talent/experience level, was directly dictated by the budget.

Exactly!

 

[Yokosuka]

Randomly came across some cutscenes from Shenmue 2 in Youtube i.e. the first meeting with Xiuying as Lishao Tao and the last discussion with Shenhua around the fire.

I was astonished by how they felt so naturally attractive. Aside Lan Di, Niao Sun and the Shenhua's wake up scenes, Shenmue 3 was far to give me the same feel.

I've yet to make an analysis as deep as yours so I'll stick with these remarks:

- Poor music selection over the cutscenes. The last Chai QTE in Bailu is very illustrative of the problem.

- The camera movements or rotations are slightly faster than before.

- Lack of three or four cutscenes to convey the Rocky Balboa's feel properly. Introducing FREE music would have undoubtedly help the game rather than the Shenmue II system.

- Obvious lack of dialogues to deepen the martials arts lore and the background of Bailu village. The game was very yawn substantially.

- Don't know what to think about the slow motions in cutscenes. I have the feeling that Yu was inspired by the (great) cutscenes of Dead Or Alive 5 story mode. Too much problems overall to conclude it was specifically a bad choice or not.

 

[orient]

The gameplay in S3 is not about more than that as you don’t actually need to train and your training has nothing to do with actually getting better at fighting. The moves you learn to defeat the bosses aren’t even available outside cutscenes! What you’re describing is something akin to Dark Souls or the Witness, where “learning” the game makes you better and gates your progress and that would be an amazing structure for Shenmue. Too bad S3 does nothing like that. You can completely ignore training and beat the bosses perfectly fine if you want (once you learn the slow mo dodge the game never teaches you) and obtaining the body check moves requires no actual martial arts training, mostly just grinding for money. Unless you think every RPG with a leveling system is a masterclass of teaching defeat.

I can't speak on behalf of everyone but I most certainly could not defeat the bosses without training. That's the intent. Maybe that's why the game worked for me and not for you.

I also had no problem participating in the economy of the game in order to acquire new moves. That's what gives you a reason to live in the world, to explore, to plan out your day and set goals for yourself. For me it was all in service of learning new moves and getting better. If you see that as a pointless grind then of course you're not going to like the game.

 

[iknifaugood]

My

I can't speak on behalf of everyone but I most certainly could not defeat the bosses without training. That's the intent. Maybe that's why the game worked for me and not for you.

I also had no problem participating in the economy of the game in order to acquire new moves. That's what gives you a reason to live in the world, to explore, to plan out your day and set goals for yourself. For me it was all in service of learning new moves and getting better. If you see that as a pointless grind then of course you're not going to like the game.

My first time through I wasn’t able to win the story fights but I didn’t view the training as some deep exploration or Ryo’s martial arts training; it was literally like a boss in an RPG that was too high level for me and I had to grind to beat him. And the story wasn’t even about that. Nothing like with Dou Niu where Ryo can’t beat him until the stakes are high enough and he’s “cleared his mind”. S3 has two nameless bosses that you can’t beat until you grind for money and levels and then the story finally progresses in the last half hour. It’s not a good story.

 

[orient]

My

My first time through I wasn’t able to win the story fights but I didn’t view the training as some deep exploration or Ryo’s martial arts training; it was literally like a boss in an RPG that was too high level for me and I had to grind to beat him. And the story wasn’t even about that. Nothing like with Dou Niu where Ryo can’t beat him until the stakes are high enough and he’s “cleared his mind”. S3 has two nameless bosses that you can’t beat until you grind for money and levels and then the story finally progresses in the last half hour. It’s not a good story.

It doesn't have to be a deep exploration to fit the story, and I'm not saying III has a good story. It's serviceable at best. I'm saying it's a better game in some ways than the previous ones.

 

[iknifaugood]

It doesn't have to be a deep exploration to fit the story, and I'm not saying III has a good story. It's serviceable at best. I'm saying it's a better game in some ways than the previous ones.

I think we’re getting off topic; my point is that S3 has a bad story that’s poorly told. You were attempting to suggest that S3 is really about Ryo training which it does through gameplay (which it doesn’t) but now you’re saying the story is serviceable at best so I think we agree more on the quality of the overall story than not.

S3 is about finding Yuan. There are minor side plots in Bailu concerning Iwao and the mirrors but for the most part that’s all there is to the story. Even the Red Snakes are just a relatively minor obstacle in Niaowu because the story is still about finding Yuan. Then at the end Niao Sun and Lan Di show up for no reason to kind of but not really set up the sequel by having each one get a mirror. The reason this story is bad is because all the gameplay between these sparse story beats is completely filler: it doesn’t have to do with Ryo training, it doesn’t have to do with him learning more about the Chi You Men, it doesn’t even have much to do with developing Ryo and Shenhua’s relationship. It doesn’t work on any level.

 

[KiddMarine]

Ryo training which it does through gameplay (which it doesn’t)

Um, of course it does. Training is a large part of the gameplay. You need to train and get stronger to be able to beat the game. Even the story beats are about Ryo learning new moves.

S3 is about finding Yuan. There are minor side plots in Bailu concerning Iwao and the mirrors but for the most part that’s all there is to the story. Even the Red Snakes are just a relatively minor obstacle in Niaowu because the story is still about finding Yuan.

No, finding Yuan is the McGuffin that gets Ryo from point A to point B, it isn't about Yuan really at all. It's about Ryo progressing as a martial artist.

The reason this story is bad is because all the gameplay between these sparse story beats is completely filler: it doesn’t have to do with Ryo training

Of course it does, everything about the gameplay is tied into training and getting stronger. Train your endurance to be able to get around easier, train your attack to hit harder, hell the entire in-game economy is based entirely around getting move scrolls.

it doesn’t have to do with him learning more about the Chi You Men, it doesn’t even have much to do with developing Ryo and Shenhua’s relationship. It doesn’t work on any level.

It certainly doesn't teach us more about the Chi You Men, but how could anyone possibly say it doesn't develop Ryo and Shenhua's relationship? I wonder how much effort and time went into their night time conversations?

I certainly have some major issues with the game's character development and story, but your complaints are borderline nonsensical to me. Did we play the same game?

 

[iknifaugood]

Um, of course it does. Training is a large part of the gameplay. You need to train and get stronger to be able to beat the game. Even the story beats are about Ryo learning new moves.

No you don’t. You can beat the game perfectly fine without training and the story isn’t about Ryo getting stronger at all. He needs two specific moves to beat the bosses, the game makes it very clear that it doesn’t matter how strong he is. The training has nothing to do with the story, it’s an entirely optional component to the game unlike S2.

It's about Ryo progressing as a martial artist.

No it’s not. It’s about how Ryo needs to learn two new moves to overcome two bizarrely similar opponents. Most of the gameplay surrounding the moves is just busywork in order to be able to obtain them, it has almost nothing to do with martial arts.

Of course it does, everything about the gameplay is tied into training and getting stronger. Train your endurance to be able to get around easier, train your attack to hit harder, hell the entire in-game economy is based entirely around getting move scrolls.

And it’s all filler nonsense. They added an arbitrary level system so that the length of the game could be padded out and didn’t even bother with story justification for it. Ryo isn’t training under a master or practicing to beat an opponent, he just needs one move and can grind to make things easier.

(EDIT) You could buy moves in S1 and 2 as well but that wasn’t how those games demonstrated Ryo’s martial arts progress, it was through constant character interactions and Ryo actively seeking new teachers. Beating Chai and Dou Niu isn’t tied to a new move, it’s something that wasn’t possible before but becomes possible as you progress through the story: hence Ryo’s progress as a martial artist. S3 doesn’t even try to do that.

but how could anyone possibly say it doesn't develop Ryo and Shenhua's relationship? I wonder how much effort and time went into their night time conversations?

Repeating the beats from S2 is not the same as developing their relationship. They’re in basically the exact same position they were in at the end of the last game, only now Shenhua’s tagging along for no reason. Sure they spend a lot of time shooting the shit but nothing about either of them changes and the dynamic is completely dropped for the second half of the game. Shenhua is a normal 16 year old girl who lives in a mountain town, has some kind of supernatural power and may be attracted to Ryo: I knew that about her in S2 and I can tell you precious little else about her from S3.

I certainly have some major issues with the game's character development and story, but your complaints are borderline nonsensical to me. Did we play the same game?

I’m sure we did play the same game but I’m not giving it the benefit of the doubt the way you are. I judge the story based on how it was presented to me, not what I want to infer based on what the story should be doing (but isn’t).

 

[orient]

No you don’t. You can beat the game perfectly fine without training and the story isn’t about Ryo getting stronger at all. He needs two specific moves to beat the bosses, the game makes it very clear that it doesn’t matter how strong he is. The training has nothing to do with the story, it’s an entirely optional component to the game unlike S2.

This is going round in circles now. You say you don't need to train to beat the game but admitted you needed to train to beat the game. And despite the whole game feeding back into training and learning new moves, somehow the game isn't about Ryo getting stronger because...there aren't enough cutscenes showing him "learning", I guess.

To me, games are about what you do as a player, and in Shenmue III I trained to make Ryo stronger. I trained my basic form, I sparred to master my new moves, I fought in dojos to improve my skills, I fought in tournaments and beat increasingly tougher opponents so I could buy even more moves and train those up...all in service of making Ryo stronger. Each time I did it because I had to, then because I wanted to. You can try and reduce it down to "you only need one move" but from a gameplay perspective that isn't true -- you need to actually win first.

That's my opinion on why Shenmue III is about training in a way it never was in the previous games. I don't think we're ever going to find middle ground on this but hey, whatever. I didn't go in expecting Shenmue I or II again -- I knew that was highly unlikely given the circumstances -- and I enjoyed the game on its own terms. The story is barebones but I think the gameplay systems work to support what's there very well.

 

[iknifaugood]

This is going round in circles now. You say you don't need to train to beat the game but admitted you needed to train to beat the game. And despite the whole game feeding back into training and learning new moves, somehow the game isn't about Ryo getting stronger because...there aren't enough cutscenes showing him "learning", I guess.

To me, games are about what you do as a player, and in Shenmue III I trained to make Ryo stronger. I trained my basic form, I sparred to master my new moves, I fought in dojos to improve my skills, I fought in tournaments and beat increasingly tougher opponents so I could buy even more moves and train those up...all in service of making Ryo stronger. Each time I did it because I had to, then because I wanted to. You can try and reduce it down to "you only need one move" but from a gameplay perspective that isn't true -- you need to actually win first.

That's my opinion on why Shenmue III is about training in a way it never was in the previous games. I don't think we're ever going to find middle ground on this but hey, whatever. I didn't go in expecting Shenmue I or II again -- I knew that was highly unlikely given the circumstances -- and I enjoyed the game on its own terms. The story is barebones but I think the gameplay systems work to support what's there very well.

First of all, Happy New Year!

Second, I’m not the one talking in circles: my point is that the story in S3 is bad, you’re the one who keeps moving the goalposts to make it something that’s better than it is. S3 isn’t about Ryo training anymore than it’s “about” Ryo doing various odd jobs to earn money or buying capsule toys (something I spent far more time doing). You could easily argue that S3 is “about” Ryo learning the value of a hard day’s work and it tells that story through the gameplay of making you work for really expensive items. Except you wouldn’t say that because that’s dumb and obviously not what the game is about.

The only reason you could possibly argue that S3 is about Ryo training is off the strength of the first two games and the knowledge that that’s what he SHOULD be doing at this point in the story (and as flimsy justification for the minuscule amount of content in S3). I, however, am not going to do Suzuki’s work for him. If he wanted to make the game about Ryo training then he could have done that, but he didn’t: he slapped RPG mechanics onto a game that didn’t need them to pad out the length. Final Fantasy 7 is not the story of Cloud training really hard to beat Sephiroth. The Witcher is not the story of Geralt training. Mass Effect is not the story of Commander Shepherd training in the exact same way S3 is not about Ryo training. These are games with leveling systems that exist outside the main storyline and have nothing to do with the story.

Lastly, I’m not sure what you’re arguing because it doesn’t appear to have anything to do with the quality of the story. You keep saying S3 is about Ryo training and it does it through gameplay. OK, but how is that good? How is that more effective than learning new moves from interesting characters while being taught about the underlying philosophy? It sounds like you’re trying to argue that S3 is actually BETTER than the first two, which I can’t possibly disagree with more.

 

[orient]

I'm not moving the goal posts, we simply don't agree on what's important. Like I said, we clearly don't see eye to eye on this. I'm not convincing you and you're certainly not convincing me, so let's just leave it at that.

Happy New Year

 

[gladias9]

My God, the amount of damage control I'm seeing here..
Did someone really just say that mashing buttons and rotating an analog stick for hours is better than Xiuying personally training Ryo? Better than experiencing life lessons through learning the Wude?

I'm sorry but training was simply put into this game to pad out the length. Ryo needed no training mechanics to defeat Master Baihu or Don Niu in Shenmue 2.. Do you see either of them losing to that scrub bookie at the Pail Toss game?
Get out of here dude. If anything, forced training has ruined the series' own logic.

-REDACTED THIS LINE- I was comparing game length of Shenmue 1,2,3 and didn't feel like that argument was substantial. Everything else stands.

 

[orient]

My God, the amount of damage control I'm seeing here..

Explaining why I like the training aspect isn't "damage control", it's having an opinion. I agree with many of the criticisms of III...I also disagree with some of them. Crazy, right?

Did someone really just say that mashing buttons and rotating an analog stick for hours is better than Xiuying personally training Ryo? Better than experiencing life lessons through learning the Wude?

No. Let me simplify it:

• Shenmue II has a better story (literally said this multiple times). III is less of a story-based game this time round
• Shenmue III does a better job of implementing the training aspect into the actual gameplay

Do you see either of them losing to that scrub bookie at the Pail Toss game?

1. The bookie's a disgraced martial artist, much like Zongquan Bai
2. It's a video game. Sometimes they have to make gameplay concessions. Ryo can't just destroy everyone he fights, nor can he only come up against martial arts masters the entire game

Get out of here dude.

Aww, don't like it that not everyone thinks this game's shit? Must be hard for you.

 

[B-Man]

I love the training system in this game. It feels like this is the way Shenmue was always meant to be. In the first game Ryo would say "I'll lose my edge if I don't practice," but those words always felt empty because it wasn't really true. You could easily win all the fights without ever practicing or sparring.

The idea of never neglecting your training was a recurring theme in the first two games but the gameplay never really reflected that. Shenmue III is the first game in the series that actually makes the player adhere to GON.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

With just a little more variety the training would be amazing. I have very little complaints about that aspect of Shenmue 3. I just see promise of something better.

 

[orient]

I love the training system in this game. It feels like this is the way Shenmue was always meant to be. In the first game Ryo would say "I'll lose my edge if I don't practice," but those words always felt empty because it wasn't really true. You could easily win all the fights without ever practicing or sparring.

The idea of never neglecting your training was a recurring theme in the first two games but the gameplay never really reflected that. Shenmue III is the first game in the series that actually makes the player adhere to GON.

Exactly. I don't know what's so hard to comprehend about this.

With just a little more variety the training would be amazing. I have very little complaints about that aspect of Shenmue 3. I just see promise of something better.

It feels like a first attempt because, for all intents and purposes, it is.

I've seen the sentiment floating around that it's our responsibility to be vocal about its shortcomings, to shout them from the rooftops so Yu knows what to fix for IV...and I find that dumb, to be honest.

Do people honestly believe Yu and team aren't aware of the shortcomings of this game? Do people think they shipped it and went "Yep, we had to cut big features and a whole area, but we nailed it. Perfect Shenmue game, everybody!" Of course not. They know more than anyone the parts that didn't come together.

There will be multiple people associated with Shenmue III reading the reviews, reading forums, collecting feedback. We know Yu Suzuki hears the criticism because he's addressed things like stiff animation in interviews.

People should be honest with their feedback -- being purely positive 100% of the time isn't helpful, either -- but to focus on just the negatives in order to amplify your personal issues with the game, in hopes of influencing IV in some way, seems completely misguided to me.

 

[Sh3ppy]

My God, the amount of damage control I'm seeing here..
Did someone really just say that mashing buttons and rotating an analog stick for hours is better than Xiuying personally training Ryo? Better than experiencing life lessons through learning the Wude?

I'm sorry but training was simply put into this game to pad out the length. Ryo needed no training mechanics to defeat Master Baihu or Don Niu in Shenmue 2.. Do you see either of them losing to that scrub bookie at the Pail Toss game?
Get out of here dude. If anything, forced training has ruined the series' own logic.

What a condescendingly patronising post (yes I’m aware of what I wrote). So many times I give people the benefit of the doubt and they come out with something stupefyingly ridiculous like the above.

I genuinely enjoy the training mechanics and feel like it very much fits in with the narrative and what Shenmue 1 & 2 repeatedly preach. Don’t like it? Fine. But the sheer arrogance dripping from your post is very off putting and makes any valid points you may have, not only very hard to judge objectively, but to even take seriously.

 

[gladias9]

Hehe... everyone is offended at my comment but nobody actually understood it aside from Orient.. but hey Sh3ppy is correct that it is hard to gauge my comment because it does indeed come off as arrogant.

I'm not saying "Remove the training from the game". I'm saying that by introducing this 'forced' training into the game to defeat simple opponents you now have opened yourself up to MASSIVE INCONSISTENCIES (Don Niu/Baihu vs Pail Toss Bookie) and Shenmue 3 already has enough of those in regards to the story (learning Lan Di's name, the flying sword, etc).

The solution is simple, nerf the significance of Attack/Endurance and instead keep the focus on leveling up the effectiveness of individual moves. They won't do it though. There's a reason that despite having a difficulty slider they still want to include artificial restrictions on the player. Forced training = pad out game length.

 

[sbkodama]

My issue with training isn't that it exist, my first issue is the story that don't acknowledge it, where did ryo learned horse stance and one inch punch ? were did he learned that the wooden poles were used to train them ? the story only care about who you beat and being maxed out don't prevent masters to tell that your kung fu isn't enough. My second issue is the retcon of Ryo power because I can't take seriously that the bookie is stronger than master bailu.

 

[iknifaugood]

• Shenmue II has a better story (literally said this multiple times). III is less of a story-based game this time round
• Shenmue III does a better job of implementing the training aspect into the actual gameplay

Ok but this thread is about the storyline, so it doesn’t really matter how much you like the gameplay, I thought the forklift driving was pretty good, how does it fit within the story and make it good?

I love the training system in this game. It feels like this is the way Shenmue was always meant to be. In the first game Ryo would say "I'll lose my edge if I don't practice," but those words always felt empty because it wasn't really true. You could easily win all the fights without ever practicing or sparring.

I basically agree with this which is why the story should have been about Ryo’s training. Would’ve been great if he was learning under Grandmaster Feng the way he learned under Xiuying.

Exactly. I don't know what's so hard to comprehend about this.

The only thing difficult to comprehend is why Ryo’s training was executed in such a haphazard fashion and why you’re equating ostensibly good gameplay with good storytelling. I liked Ocarina of Time’s fishing mechanics; doesn’t mean the game was about fishing or told a good story about fishing.

It feels like a first attempt because, for all intents and purposes, it is.

Yes and the same community that was so vocal that it made Suzuki implement the forklift for no reason has every right to demand that they want more of an emphasis on the story because otherwise what is the point of further sequels?

There will be multiple people associated with Shenmue III reading the reviews, reading forums, collecting feedback. We know Yu Suzuki hears the criticism because he's addressed things like stiff animation in interviews.

True but Suzuki has gone back and forth on the storyline, claiming it’s important and then downplaying it. I think it’s important that he recognize that mini games are not what people like Shenmue for and clearly not what are going to expand the audience.

People should be honest with their feedback -- being purely positive 100% of the time isn't helpful, either -- but to focus on just the negatives in order to amplify your personal issues with the game, in hopes of influencing IV in some way, seems completely misguided to me.

Yes and no. The forklift was put in S3 (at great development expense) due to fan demand. I think it’s entirely reasonable for those who play Shenmue for the story to voice their concerns and make it known that the quality of the story and storytelling in S3 are not up to snuff. I agree that focusing on the two extremes isn’t helpful but this thread is about the story and, frankly, it’s really bad. If you want to argue why it’s good then feel free.