Would you be happy if Shenmue 4 was the final game?

[iknifaugood]

Well Chapter 1 wasn't originally intended to take up the entirety of Shenmue 1, Yu Suzuki just kept adding to it until it filled out the entire game, with the rest going into Shenmue II.

I thought Shenmue 1 and 2 got split because of how expensive it was getting? Which is why Shenmue 1 had stuff added to it to make it a standalone game and why you can see footage of 1 and 2 in the Saturn version.

I mean, it is. You can look at the VFRPG map and see the locations. We're clearly still in the Guilin region, so Shenmue III is a continuation of the "Guilin" chapter from Shenmue II. It's not even a full chapter in and of itself.

This is just wrong according to what Suzuki has said on the matter. "My problem is, of those 11 chapters, how much do I want to put into Shenmue III? In other words, it's not the end of the story; it will continue. It's still going. Shenmue III comes out of chapters three to six." Also, as you point out, things change in development.

The tactician was cut because Baisha was cut.

Baisha wasn't "cut" per se, according to Kickstarter it was changed to the Fortified Castle. But, I mean, if you have it planned out that you're revealing another villain in this game, you don't just "cut" it from the story, you re purpose the assets.

Just because she's not named doesn't mean she's not introduced. She appears at the beginning of the Niaowu chapter, and has a major role in the climax of the plot. I think Yu is setting up for a confrontation between Lan Di and Niao Sun in Shenmue IV.

Introduced, barely; "substantial role", no. Hard to know what to make of her conflict with Lan Di without knowing anything about her (or him, for that matter), or the organization they're vying for control over, or what they hope to achieve with the treasure they want so bad. But, like pretty much everything in this story, we now have to wait for the sequel to find out anything because pacing.

I just don't know why or how it would even come up in conversation. As you say, Ryo and Shenhua are literally fulfilling it, so it's likely that we're just going to experience it. The characters are clearly as unaware as to wtf it actually means as we are, so there's not really much for them to discuss besides "man, ain't it weird that we've recited this poem a lot, and then a Japanese guy turned up?"

I mean, Ryo talks to the blind lady who repeats that Shenhua should "go with the one who holds the phoenix", I would assume she'd have something to say about Shenhua, what makes her so special, how they knew the prophecy referred to her, if their obsession with dragons and phoenixes extends to more than just the mirrors etc. Also, there was another Japanese guy who visited the village...

I'm not really into guessing development budgets or sales figures. I'm okay to just go by what we know, and reading sales reports as they come in. Better yet, an announcement or statement from Yu Suzuki or Ysnet. I'm hopeful of seeing a Shenmue IV, but if we don't, we don't.

Very true. I just can't understand his decision making process having seen how the sausage gets made. For someone who really seems to want to tell his story and was given a once in a lifetime second chance, so much of this doesn't add up.

 

[That Guy.]

4 would have to be very story-centric and a rather long game for this to work. I honestly don't know if Shenmue should continue with the current state of where things are going right now if the direction isn't changed. We already have seen an idea of what happens if the story gets rushed. I had said that everyone will regret it if the story gets rushed which happened in 3. I rather their be no game or just a novel to finish it all off.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

I thought Shenmue 1 and 2 got split because of how expensive it was getting? Which is why Shenmue 1 had stuff added to it to make it a standalone game and why you can see footage of 1 and 2 in the Saturn version.

Yeah Yu kept beefing up the first few chapters to the point they had to split into 2 games.

This is just wrong according to what Suzuki has said on the matter. "My problem is, of those 11 chapters, how much do I want to put into Shenmue III? In other words, it's not the end of the story; it will continue. It's still going. Shenmue III comes out of chapters three to six." Also, as you point out, things change in development.

It's not though. Certain story parts and idea may come from chapters three to six, but the location is still Guilin. Hong Kong/Kowloon are only one "chapter," but there's ideas there from chapters 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

Baisha wasn't "cut" per se, according to Kickstarter it was changed to the Fortified Castle. But, I mean, if you have it planned out that you're revealing another villain in this game, you don't just "cut" it from the story, you re purpose the assets.

Yeah that's PR speak for cut. The castle is like 5 minutes long. Baisha was likely much bigger.

Introduced, barely; "substantial role", no. Hard to know what to make of her conflict with Lan Di without knowing anything about her (or him, for that matter), or the organization they're vying for control over, or what they hope to achieve with the treasure they want so bad. But, like pretty much everything in this story, we now have to wait for the sequel to find out anything because pacing.

Yeah, introduced and had a substantial role in the plot. Now the Chi You Men are split and there's a power struggle. Shit is awesome.

I mean, Ryo talks to the blind lady who repeats that Shenhua should "go with the one who holds the phoenix", I would assume she'd have something to say about Shenhua, what makes her so special, how they knew the prophecy referred to her, if their obsession with dragons and phoenixes extends to more than just the mirrors etc. Also, there was another Japanese guy who visited the village...

Dunno, maybe it's just a weird poem they know and recite. Again, seems like we're going to play it rather than have it discussed. It really seems to me the characters don't know any more than we do about it.

Very true. I just can't understand his decision making process having seen how the sausage gets made. For someone who really seems to want to tell his story and was given a once in a lifetime second chance, so much of this doesn't add up.

I think he's just completely committed to his vision, and telling the story he wants to tell.

 

[iknifaugood]

It's not though. Certain story parts and idea may come from chapters three to six, but the location is still Guilin. Hong Kong/Kowloon are only one "chapter," but there's ideas there from chapters 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

Again, this is just wrong. Shenmue 2, as google will tell you, consists of chapters 3-5 (since 2, the boat chapter, was cut, it's 2-4). When you play Shenmue 2, you even see the chapter numbers above the areas: 2: Hong Kong, 3: Kowloon, 4: Guilin. Kowloon is in Hong Kong so there's no reason to assume Guilin, Bailu Village, and Niaowu all consist of 1 chapter when Suzuki himself says that S3 brings us to chapter 6. Furthermore, the idea that all of this is completely unchanged from the VFRPG images is insane, as you can see there's no boat chapter 2 in those images.

Yeah that's PR speak for cut. The castle is like 5 minutes long. Baisha was likely much bigger.

Yea they were definitely covering their asses considering that was a stretch goal. They likely migrated the plot elements from Baisha to the castle (since it's technically still Ryo and co. infiltrating a Chi You Men base) so it's not really "cut" from a story perspective.

Now the Chi You Men are split and there's a power struggle.

How could you possibly gather this from what is presented in Shenmue 3? Niao Sun orders the Chi You Men to burn the castle down and assumes she is the new leader. We can assume Lan Di is still alive because Ryo adorably warns him not to run in his head, but we are given no indication that anyone in the Chi You Men are loyal to Lan Di, or that there is any kind of power struggle or, again, what the Chi You Men even are.

Dunno, maybe it's just a weird poem they know and recite. Again, seems like we're going to play it rather than have it discussed. It really seems to me the characters don't know any more than we do about it.

Really seems to me that Suzuki doesn't know any more about it than we do. Kidding aside, the whole point of going to Bailu village was to find the descendants of the ones who made the mirrors. Yuanda Zhu tells Ryo this is his only lead, and that Iwao and Sunming Zhao trained there. And when we get there, the only thing the descendant tells us is that the mirrors used to be stored at a cliff temple so go there I guess? I mean, it really seems like Suzuki was setting up more information than that, which is probably why he told us we were going to learn more information than that when asking for our money.

 

[hmjohnny]

Again, this is just wrong. Shenmue 2, as google will tell you, consists of chapters 3-5 (since 2, the boat chapter, was cut, it's 2-4). When you play Shenmue 2, you even see the chapter numbers above the areas: 2: Hong Kong, 3: Kowloon, 4: Guilin. Kowloon is in Hong Kong so there's no reason to assume Guilin, Bailu Village, and Niaowu all consist of 1 chapter when Suzuki himself says that S3 brings us to chapter 6. Furthermore, the idea that all of this is completely unchanged from the VFRPG images is insane, as you can see there's no boat chapter 2 in those images.

The boat was never chapter 2. This is erroneously referred to as such by some fans but like you mentioned the original tiles never show it. Chapter 2 was always intended to be Hong Kong but during development Suzuki added to the story and expanded it to include Kowloon as its own chapter.

As for whether Bailu and Niaowu are considered separate chapters, who knows? It seems that Suzuki himself has abandoned the whole concept since Shenmue 3 makes no mention of it in the notebook and the plot was sliced up and distributed across the games.

I think he's just completely committed to his vision, and telling the story he wants to tell

I think this is also not exactly true. Suzuki's vision seems to be changing over the years, which I don't entirely blame him for. As we have discussed the whole concept of a pre-planned story doesn't fit. Not only has so much of it been cut, changed or expanded, but compromises were made along the way. Shenmue has been mired by compromise since the beginning and Suzuki has changed the plot to suit the way the games were made. I have no doubt he's done the same for Shenmue 3 since it's plainly obvious to anyone who has played the game significant portions of it were cut out.

It's not though. Certain story parts and idea may come from chapters three to six, but the location is still Guilin. Hong Kong/Kowloon are only one "chapter," but there's ideas there from chapters 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6

Again, impossible to say exactly. I think we should just take Suzuki at his word when he says we are 40% through the story. Which I assume puts us roughly at the beginning of the second row on the chapter slide story wise, but things may change in Shenmue 4.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Again, this is just wrong. Shenmue 2, as google will tell you, consists of chapters 3-5 (since 2, the boat chapter, was cut, it's 2-4). When you play Shenmue 2, you even see the chapter numbers above the areas: 2: Hong Kong, 3: Kowloon, 4: Guilin. Kowloon is in Hong Kong so there's no reason to assume Guilin, Bailu Village, and Niaowu all consist of 1 chapter when Suzuki himself says that S3 brings us to chapter 6. Furthermore, the idea that all of this is completely unchanged from the VFRPG images is insane, as you can see there's no boat chapter 2 in those images.

No it isn't. This is what the chapters are labelled now, not how they were labelled in the VFRPG outline. I suggest you go and watch the Shenmue postmortem. The skeleton of the chapters and map from that outline are still intact. The regions of China that Ryo travels through are set, and have not changed. Shenmue III still only takes place in the Guilin region. It's not a full chapter. I'm not sure how you're arguing that it is more than one chapter, but also saying there's not enough story there. You're not making any sense.

I would strongly suggest going back through the old dojo and looking up threads like this with all the information regarding this information.

Yea they were definitely covering their asses considering that was a stretch goal. They likely migrated the plot elements from Baisha to the castle (since it's technically still Ryo and co. infiltrating a Chi You Men base) so it's not really "cut" from a story perspective.

Baisha was cut. Simple as that. The "technician" villain we're talking about was cut. That's all there is to it.

How could you possibly gather this from what is presented in Shenmue 3? Niao Sun orders the Chi You Men to burn the castle down and assumes she is the new leader. We can assume Lan Di is still alive because Ryo adorably warns him not to run in his head, but we are given no indication that anyone in the Chi You Men are loyal to Lan Di, or that there is any kind of power struggle or, again, what the Chi You Men even are.

The Chi You Men is a chinese cartel with several leaders. Cartels typically have "families" under their leaders, have you never heard of the Mafia? I don't think it's a stretch to think that there's different factions within the Chi You Men, some loyal to Lan Di, some loyal to Niao Sun etc.

Regardless, I'm not sure I understand your point here. Niao Sun was introduced. Niao Sun had the main role in the main plot development in the game. If that's not enough for you, cool, but it still happened.

Really seems to me that Suzuki doesn't know any more about it than we do. Kidding aside, the whole point of going to Bailu village was to find the descendants of the ones who made the mirrors. Yuanda Zhu tells Ryo this is his only lead, and that Iwao and Sunming Zhao trained there. And when we get there, the only thing the descendant tells us is that the mirrors used to be stored at a cliff temple so go there I guess? I mean, it really seems like Suzuki was setting up more information than that, which is probably why he told us we were going to learn more information than that when asking for our money.

I mean, the bloke laid out 16 chapters 20-something years ago and has said this game is his life's work. The story is panning out in line with the skeleton of those old VFRPG maps, and a lot of what we have speculated over for 18 years was confirmed in Shenmue III.

Shenmue has always been "go here to find out x," and then when you get there, you find out you need to actually "go here and find y." This is literally what happens in Yokosuka, the Harbour, Hong Kong, Kowloon, Guilin, Bailu Village and now Niaowu. It's not like this has suddenly sprung up out of nowhere.

I think this is also not exactly true. Suzuki's vision seems to be changing over the years, which I don't entirely blame him for. As we have discussed the whole concept of a pre-planned story doesn't fit. Not only has so much of it been cut, changed or expanded, but compromises were made along the way. Shenmue has been mired by compromise since the beginning and Suzuki has changed the plot to suit the way the games were made. I have no doubt he's done the same for Shenmue 3 since it's plainly obvious to anyone who has played the game significant portions of it were cut out.

Yeah, I don't contend that nothing has ever changed, or that Yu hasn't compromised on things. Look at chapters 3 and 4, the train journey, the boat chapter between Yokosuka and Hong Kong etc. etc. however, the key points of the story, and the locations, characters etc. have all remained in place. The soul of the story has never changed.

He's not suddenly going to compromise on that and throw us an action-packed, break-neck speed whisk through that story, and teleport around to all the key plot points and wrap them up immediately because he's desperate to finish the story. It's just not how he works.

 

[iknifaugood]

The skeleton of the chapters and map from that outline are still intact. The regions of China that Ryo travels through are set, and have not changed. Shenmue III still only takes place in the Guilin region. It's not a full chapter.

What you're suggesting is that Shenmue 1-3 comprise about 3-4 images of the VFRPG concept art and that Yu Suzuki, by his own admission, is going to cram the remaining 6 into 1-2 more games. I actually hope you're right because then the story will be forced to move at a decent pace. Even though you're wrong because Suzuki has repeatedly stated that S3 leaves us at chapter 6 of 11. If you want to believe that concept art from a 1996 game that was never released is more reliable than what the designer said last year then go right ahead.

The Chi You Men is a chinese cartel with several leaders.

Citation needed.

Cartels typically have "families" under their leaders, have you never heard of the Mafia? I don't think it's a stretch to think that there's different factions within the Chi You Men, some loyal to Lan Di, some loyal to Niao Sun etc.

That's very much a stretch. Most Mafia "families" are literally families and/or structured like families, with one person in charge. Shenmue 3 even implies that Lan Di is this person and, now that Niao Sun thinks she killed him, she assumes she is now in charge. Nothing is mentioned about any factions or any other leaders, this is all (way more interesting than what we got) head canon atm. I think you're assuming S3's story is more interesting than it was based on the gaps you're filling in for it.

a lot of what we have speculated over for 18 years was confirmed in Shenmue III.

Such as...?

Shenmue has always been "go here to find out x," and then when you get there, you find out you need to actually "go here and find y." This is literally what happens in Yokosuka, the Harbour, Hong Kong, Kowloon, Guilin, Bailu Village and now Niaowu. It's not like this has suddenly sprung up out of nowhere.

Yea I totally remember meeting Yuanda Zhu after searching for him for the better part of the enitre game and him just telling me to go to Guilin. Nothing else happened during that scene at all... Shenmue is structured with payoffs in mind, that's what makes the "boring" parts bearable, take that away and all you're left with is fetch quests that don't amount to anything. The story is literally all that matters.

however, the key points of the story, and the locations, characters etc. have all remained in place. The soul of the story has never changed.

I mean, unless you've been on the team since 1996 there's literally no way for you to know this.

He's not suddenly going to compromise on that and throw us an action-packed, break-neck speed whisk through that story, and teleport around to all the key plot points and wrap them up immediately because he's desperate to finish the story.

Look man, there's a world of difference between Shenmue 3's bullshit and actually advancing the plot at a decent clip. Shenmue 2 takes about 15 hours to play through if you only follow the story and that's hardly an action game, it just has a point and doesn't waste your time. No one is arguing for warping from plot point to plot point.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

What you're suggesting is that Shenmue 1-3 comprise about 3-4 images of the VFRPG concept art and that Yu Suzuki, by his own admission, is going to cram the remaining 6 into 1-2 more games. I actually hope you're right because then the story will be forced to move at a decent pace. Even though you're wrong because Suzuki has repeatedly stated that S3 leaves us at chapter 6 of 11. If you want to believe that concept art from a 1996 game that was never released is more reliable than what the designer said last year then go right ahead.

Yes, you understand the current chapters are a) not all equal in length and b) cut together from bits and pieces of the VFRPG storyboard, right? I'm not sure how good your mathematics are, but 6/11 is not 40%, and we're 40% through the story at present.

Citation needed.

Chi You Men

The Chi You Men (Hànzì: 蚩尤門, Pinyin: Chīyóumén, On'yomi: Shiyūmon) is a Chinese cartel that is the main antagonistic organization of the Shenmue series. It is led by Lan Di, Niao Sun (Yan Di), Gentei (Xuan Di), and Koutei (Hao Di), with the latter two yet to be revealed. While these four are...

shenmue.fandom.com

You could just google these things.

That's very much a stretch. Most Mafia "families" are literally families and/or structured like families, with one person in charge. Shenmue 3 even implies that Lan Di is this person and, now that Niao Sun thinks she killed him, she assumes she is now in charge. Nothing is mentioned about any factions or any other leaders, this is all (way more interesting than what we got) head canon atm. I think you're assuming S3's story is more interesting than it was based on the gaps you're filling in for it.

If you want to assume that all of the clearly laid-out story from the mid-late '90s is just "my head canon," be my guest. But if you've been following Shenmue since it was Project Berkley like I have, all of this stuff is pretty well-known already, and plenty of it has been confirmed as the games have released.

If you're going to tediously argue that the only things that are canon or relevant to the Shenmue story, are exactly what we have seen in-game, you're just being tediously obtuse because you can't stand losing an argument.

Such as...?

Niao Sun being a Chi You Men leader, the photo being of Iwao and Zhao, Ryo travelling to a water-side town, Chi You Men leaders feuding, Shenhua being able to communicate with animals.

Yea I totally remember meeting Yuanda Zhu after searching for him for the better part of the enitre game and him just telling me to go to Guilin. Nothing else happened during that scene at all... Shenmue is structured with payoffs in mind, that's what makes the "boring" parts bearable, take that away and all you're left with is fetch quests that don't amount to anything. The story is literally all that matters.

Yeah, if you didn't think the payoff was worth it, cool. We disagree. Still doesn't change the fact that this is and always has been the structure of Shenmue games, and it's not going to change.

I mean, unless you've been on the team since 1996 there's literally no way for you to know this.

I mean, you could just look up and watch the things I've linked, and clearly see that the spine of the story and Ryo's journey is intact.

Look man, there's a world of difference between Shenmue 3's bullshit and actually advancing the plot at a decent clip. Shenmue 2 takes about 15 hours to play through if you only follow the story and that's hardly an action game, it just has a point and doesn't waste your time. No one is arguing for warping from plot point to plot point.

Yeah, you dislike the story of the game. You made an account 6 days ago to continuously state this in every single thread, over and over again. I get it man, it's not for you. Nobody's forcing you to play it or enjoy it. I thought it was awesome, never once felt like it was wasting my time. Sucks for you, but not everybody feels that way.

 

[hmjohnny]

EDIT: replied to the wrong thread

 

[DarksideHazuki]

I've seen you say 6 games a few times but not sure where your source is for that. I've always heard 4 or 5 games, though admittedly Suzuki has only talked about how many games he would after Shenmue 3 got green lit.

I think it was this past summer, Yu was quoted in an article saying as much and it did the rounds here with lots of people ridiculing him, being shocked etc. I've been googling it but with Shenmue III dropping it's just too buried atm. I'll keep trying to dig for it, it's posted on these forums somewhere.

 

[iknifaugood]

I'm not sure how good your mathematics are, but 6/11 is not 40%, and we're 40% through the story at present.

You should explain that to Yu Suzuki.

You could just google these things.

I'm well aware of the four leaders concept, thanks. Still doesn't make it something that exists in the game.

If you're going to tediously argue that the only things that are canon or relevant to the Shenmue story, are exactly what we have seen in-game, you're just being tediously obtuse because you can't stand losing an argument.

No, it's because that's all that matters and there is very much reason to worry that lots of cuts have been made that we don't know about, especially if he thinks he can finish the story in 1 more game.

Niao Sun being a Chi You Men leader, the photo being of Iwao and Zhao, Ryo travelling to a water-side town, Chi You Men leaders feuding, Shenhua being able to communicate with animals.

lol

Yeah, if you didn't think the payoff was worth it, cool. We disagree. Still doesn't change the fact that this is and always has been the structure of Shenmue games, and it's not going to change.

I'm well aware of the planned structure, thanks. Very different story on a kickstarted budget, many things were obviously cut already and there is no reason to assume that hasn't already compromised things. No way to know until we get a sequel. You want to be optimistic, I'll stick with reality.

You made an account 6 days ago to continuously state this in every single thread, over and over again. I get it man, it's not for you.

I've been here longer than that. And yea, Shenmue 3 isn't for me and it appears to be not for a lot of people, the fans were able to get the forklift back in the game, maybe he'll hear the outcry for more story.

 

[TheExclusiveMan]

Shenmue 4 needs to be the end unfortunately.
The gaming media and general public has a disdain for this series and 4 may be the last chance Yu gets.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

It doesn't have to be the end; the last game, sure, but the story cannot conclude in 1 game.

I still expect 5, however if 4 is the last game and we get one last thing to conclude the story, we're fine.

 

[MJC The Great]

And he definitely knows this, which is why he was promising big things in S3 (3 locations, new mechanics, Niao Sun as a central antagonist with another, unnamed one to be introduced as well, an explanation of the poem). And what did we get? Two unnamed goons and 30 hours of fetch quests and grinding. He either terribly mismanaged the project, foolishly back loaded story in the hopes he'd get more money for a sequel, or he simply doesn't have the goods. Judging by the way the story we got was handled (Ryo being shocked to learn who Sunming Zhao is 3 times now, missing magic sword in the intro, the Niao Sun reveal, Lan Di's henchmen being jokes, unnamed bad guys with 0 plot relevance or menace etc.) it's looking more and more like the third option. Sad.

Whilst I did really enjoy the beautiful environments with all their detail and the interaction with Shenhua, your post pretty much highlights exactly what I've felt is wrong with Shenmue III. It really pains me to say such things but those are some pretty gaping holes in it. I so badly want more games in the series but I just don't know how many more chances we will get. Would I be happy with IV being the conclusion to the series... I think I could live with it as long as it's as big as Shenmue II with plenty of material and good pacing. Peace.

 

[Dmitriy1]

I'm in the camp that would actually prefer if Shenmue 4 served as the final instalment.

There was a comment Yu Suzuki made in an interview on the previous Dojo in 2014 where he said that while Shenmue spans 4-5 games and he would ideally like a fifth to include the entirety of his vision, he felt that it "might be a bit much" and so he would try to wrap things up in 3 & 4 instead. It was only during the Kickstarter when fans showed their support and the Kickstarter smashed records that Yu has started talking more about Shenmue 5 and has even stumbled into Shenmue 6 talk if a comment by Corey Marshall is to be believed.

Given how gruelling it has been to get Shenmue 3 made to the point its only hope was a crowdfunding initiative now coupled with the mixed responses it has received from critics and sales which presumably have not exactly set the world on fire, I feel that there's got to be some sort of compromise made here if we want to witness the end of this story. If this is the reaction Shenmue 3 is getting, its only going to get worse come Shenmue 4 as that game will not have all the "20-years in the making!" hype behind it like Shenmue 3 had which would have helped drive some extra sales.

Using the profit earned from Shenmue 3 to make a large-scale, 30 or even 60-hour long Shenmue 4 that adapts the cream of the remaining story to ensure the story is safely concluded for the fans who waited 20-years for a resolution is the most sensible thing YS Net and Shibuya can do in my opinion. To play with fire and risk another potential shelving by setting up more sequels ala Assassin's Creed in a franchise that continues to be underappreciated just sounds incredibly risky to me. We captured lightning in a bottle with the Kickstarter revival, and it's either now or never that Yu gets to finish his story and I think he should end it as soon as he can rather than delaying things for the sake of having more sequels.

What do you all think?

I think he'd get a huge support from kickstarter if he explained he's making this with the best ideas he had for the series. That in the 4th Ryo will learn the best moves, and finally not be a wimp every 3-4 hours meeting a new master to show him how much of a wimp he is. He could really go all out, and let us have lots of fun. I think after 20 years, it's time. S4 could really be cool if it's the last one.

 

[ys.]

And he definitely knows this, which is why he was promising big things in S3 (3 locations, new mechanics, Niao Sun as a central antagonist with another, unnamed one to be introduced as well, an explanation of the poem)
...
He either terribly mismanaged the project, foolishly back loaded story in the hopes he'd get more money for a sequel, or he simply doesn't have the goods.

I read an article before about the project being in big financial trouble in (if I recall correctly) 2017 and Deep Silver coming along to rescue it. He does have a bit of a reputation regarding that topic of course. Nagoshi confirmed this in an interview. Though to be fair, having to also build the studio this time did complicate things beyond game development.

We knew Baisha was cut months ago too. I cannot fathom how anyone could come into Shenmue III with the expectation of it covering as much of the story or more than Shenmue II.

Maybe the statements of the game being bigger than Shenmue 1 and 2 combined? Some might assume then that it doesn't only refer to the area of the game world.

I thought Shenmue 1 and 2 got split because of how expensive it was getting? Which is why Shenmue 1 had stuff added to it to make it a standalone game and why you can see footage of 1 and 2 in the Saturn version.

Baisha wasn't "cut" per se, according to Kickstarter it was changed to the Fortified Castle. But, I mean, if you have it planned out that you're revealing another villain in this game, you don't just "cut" it from the story, you re purpose the assets.

Very true. I just can't understand his decision making process having seen how the sausage gets made. For someone who really seems to want to tell his story and was given a once in a lifetime second chance, so much of this doesn't add up.

Yes, I also read that Shenmue 1 and 2 were originally planned as one game. I think that Sega wanted to see a result too that they could release on their new console which forced that split.
About Baisha, what's strange is that Yu mentioned during the early Kickstarter campaign videos that it would show what Shenmue 3 was really about. As you said, some things don't add up. It would be interesting to get an insight later on about some details.

 

[Ryo2040]

I think they should wrap it up with 4 to make sure the series gets a proper ending, but it should basically be like two games in terms of content. It would mean more development time and money has to be put in one single game, but with enough polish (and the ground work in unreal already established now) I think it can work and still sell enough.
And if Yu still is able and willing to do more afterwards, I'm sure there is some possibility left for a sequel or even prequel.

 

[Dmitriy1]

I'm in the camp that would actually prefer if Shenmue 4 served as the final instalment.

There was a comment Yu Suzuki made in an interview on the previous Dojo in 2014 where he said that while Shenmue spans 4-5 games and he would ideally like a fifth to include the entirety of his vision, he felt that it "might be a bit much" and so he would try to wrap things up in 3 & 4 instead. It was only during the Kickstarter when fans showed their support and the Kickstarter smashed records that Yu has started talking more about Shenmue 5 and has even stumbled into Shenmue 6 talk if a comment by Corey Marshall is to be believed.

Given how gruelling it has been to get Shenmue 3 made to the point its only hope was a crowdfunding initiative now coupled with the mixed responses it has received from critics and sales which presumably have not exactly set the world on fire, I feel that there's got to be some sort of compromise made here if we want to witness the end of this story. If this is the reaction Shenmue 3 is getting, its only going to get worse come Shenmue 4 as that game will not have all the "20-years in the making!" hype behind it like Shenmue 3 had which would have helped drive some extra sales.

Using the profit earned from Shenmue 3 to make a large-scale, 30 or even 60-hour long Shenmue 4 that adapts the cream of the remaining story to ensure the story is safely concluded for the fans who waited 20-years for a resolution is the most sensible thing YS Net and Shibuya can do in my opinion. To play with fire and risk another potential shelving by setting up more sequels ala Assassin's Creed in a franchise that continues to be underappreciated just sounds incredibly risky to me. We captured lightning in a bottle with the Kickstarter revival, and it's either now or never that Yu gets to finish his story and I think he should end it as soon as he can rather than delaying things for the sake of having more sequels.

What do you all think?

I think you're right. If he can add throws as counters, and improve the faces a bit, he can reuse what he has already, and only work on locations. Even with those, at this time he might consider having only the story related areas be very interactive. I can't believe he still went his old way in S3. He might have improved the crucial parts instead... But it's done, he did it. He needs to talk to Epic games seriously. He needs to explain that exclusive turned off many backers, it really hurt chances of another kickstarter, no matter how I actually feel about playing it on Epic. It plays perfectly, that's how I feel. He needs to have an iron clad deal with them, exclusive forever to their platform. Sure it'd set some heads on fire all over the web. Who gives a crap? 10 million is enough to fund the game? Epic would cement it's place on PC for actual Shenmue fans. If it was the only real place to get the thing. Not for a year. If explained to the fans before hand, with short clips of happy gamers playing S3 on their PCs right now, there'd be no problems. If it all happens though, he should concentrate on making 1 very, very good game, with the best of his ideas in it, not 2 or 3.

 

[gladias9]

If 3 focused more on advancing the story then it would be possible to end with 4.
Now? We need 4 and 5.. possibly even 6 if things continue to move at a snails pace.

 

[Nigel]

5 looks to be the best case scenario, especially with reference to the seemingly middling and divisive reception of S3.

Part of me wishes 3 could have been released during the 6th gen, seeing as Yu has stressed that the plot of this game was to be inward (Ryo/Shenhua), not outward (the plot many, myself included, desired). So to speak, he could've gotten that part 'out of the way', and we could've picked up with a game more focused on the outer elements.

The team really needed to make this installment appeal to the masses for sales, but in the timing of the plot, this was a damned if you do/don't situation. Either you skimp the crucial character development or the more "external" aspects of the series (NPCs, plot, etc.) or you skimp on the integrity of his vision (as if we'd expect that).

I'd really like to see 4, but the internet mob seems to grow angrier/negative each year, and I don't just mean gaming. It does seem that detractors are more so bored than hostile, but I truly can't imagine another kickstarter going down well.


My honest answer? I'd like to see them attempt 4 but, if it flops and prevents a 5, please do release the rest of the story in print or something. I've never understood that notion of "if he can't make it his way, just let it die with him." You don't have to read it if you don't want to, but some of us care enough about the story that imperfection is better than giving up (I'd think Ryo would agree, no? Go down fighting.)