SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[Sput Vas Normandy]

maybe I'm missing something but when did he complain about that?

In the first minutes

 

[orient]

S1 & S2 have some pretty big plot progression, cinematic and action between those conversations. Shenmue 3 kind of lacks those big moments. I don't think it's all that simple.

Yeah, talk to person X to find person/location Y, where you'll find person Z -- that's the foundation of all 3 games. Obviously the reason behind finding the next person/location will dramatically affect your enjoyment of this system -- so ultimately this boils down to story and pacing again -- and I think that's where SEPW's complaints stem from.

If you watch his first video on Shenmue you'll see he had the exact same issues with the first game. He thinks Shenmue II is improved and basically points to the more exciting story as his reasoning. He doesn't go deep into it, though, maybe because he didn't actually think about it too hard, or because positivity didn't suit the video he was making

I recognise there are parts of all the games that feel very slow, and you can feel like a headless chicken following leads...but I don't mind that at all. That's what I want, to a certain extent. Obviously it can be done poorly, and there were moments in Niaowu that stretched my patience, but this part of the series' DNA generally isn't a problem for me.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

What I can't stand are the moments when he absolutely lies. You dont like the cutscene of the shoes? Okay, agreed. But he explained it like the game forced you to go into it when that NEVER HAPPENS. You can go out of the house without going there, come fucking on man. And no, it's not like "well, maybe he didnt explain it correctly". No. He deliberately made it like the game pushed you into that.

He said "oh, Shenhua says goodbye when you go out the house, and it's always the fricking same scene, so annoying" (he pointed that out specificaly) and that's ABSOLUTELY BULLSHIT. If you talk to Shenhua at night that cinematic changes (I think when she wakes up you too, I dont remember but 99% sure changes too). So, no, it's not the same. He's lying. OR he's just and idiot that rushed the game TWICE and never talked with Shenhua at night, which it's one of the best part of the game (for me S3 it's about build a relationship with her and get more info about the mirror, what we actually have). So we can say he didnt play the game properly (again, he rushed the game into only 20 hours, I think I was just arriving to Niaowu in that time, jeez).

So, we have three main critics:

1) Shenmue been Shenmue (then you kinda dont like Shenmue that much, boy)
2) Combat system (I understand it, not a fan of VF myself tho so I can live with it)
3) Bullshits of a rushed game (or things that are patched like skip scenes).

So no, I dont respect the title, I dont respect the mayority of the content of the vid, and yes, it pisses me off this type of content, because what Shenmue definetely doesnt need right now its bad publicity (he posted images making it like the game was an economic failure) so we can get a S4.


I knew I shouldnt enter this topic.

 

[Stiz]

I watched this on YouTube by accident it auto played just now. I have to admit the beginning is tedious Bailey village I am still stuck looking for last herb.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

During the segment where he talks about getting money for the wine, I just had to laugh. How he explains it is so ridiculous, which, maybe it is. I never really had that big of a problem with money, mostly because I did work every in game day. That’s the big problem I have with his video. He talks about that experience as if it was designed to only work like that. There are so many different ways of making money in that game, and he focused on the most complicated method.

This.

I re-read Eurogamer's review after watching the video and this quote really spoke to me:



And I think that's something the video doesn't really explain or go into great detail. It's no different to watching either Lars Von Trier's Nymphomaniac or Rambo. Both are great films, but if i'm not in the mood for 4 hours of misery, then i'm not going to enjoy Nymphomaniac. Likewise, if I want something that's deep and cerebral, watching dozens of men get slaughtered in Rambo won't work.

So with Shenmue III, if I wasn't digging its rhythm, I would play an in game day, take a break, then play again later. When it did click, 3-4 hours would pass before I even realised.

And for what it's worth; i'm 10 hours into Death Stranding and I feel that game is wasting my time more due to its needless complexity. I needed to recharge a motorbike and I spent over an hour backtracking to the place where making the item to get it to work was mentioned. It turned out I was able to do it all along, but it was buried under dozens of other instructions. That's what bothers me more. I'm told it gets better, but I keep putting it off by playing other games.

This.

 

[hmjohnny]

In the first minutes

Again, maybe I'm missing something but I don't know where he says this. He does mention the core gameplay is going around talking to NPC's who point you to other NPC's but he doesn't complain about that, just illustrating what you do in the game to segue into his actual complaint which is that some of the NPC's don't look very good (a bit of a stretch IMO given budget) and that the dialogue and voice acting is bad. Since you have to spend most of the game interacting with these NPC's it's a fair point if you didn't like the dialogue.

it pisses me off this type of content, because what Shenmue definetely doesnt need right now its bad publicity (he posted images making it like the game was an economic failure) so we can get a S4.

Here's where I disagree. I don't think it's the video nor any other Youtuber or reviewers fault if we don't get S4. It's up to Suzuki to make good games that sell well not the media to sell it for him. Likewise even if the reviews were overwhelmingly positive or negative at this point, it would have no real impact on sales or whether we got an S4 which should have already been decided. I think this kind of rhetoric needs to stop because it makes Shenmue fans look bad when we can't handle criticism.

 

[hmjohnny]

I recognise there are parts of all the games that feel very slow, and you can feel like a headless chicken following leads...but I don't mind that at all. That's what I want, to a certain extent. Obviously it can be done poorly, and there were moments in Niaowu that stretched my patience, but this part of the series' DNA generally isn't a problem for me.

There are ways to design this better though to streamline it. I get that it's the core of Shenmue's gameplay but it all has to have a point. In S2 when you have to find the Wulinshu you are locked into Wise Men's Qr. so you don't stray too far, and you are at most 3 NPC interactions away from finding out you need to go to Wise Men's Kung Fu. Nearly any NPC you talk to in the game will point you towards your next objective so you don't waste your time and things are happening at a decent pace so when you get there usually something interesting happens.

Maybe you're thinking of the same part in Niaowu as me. When I had to find Yuan's photo on the billboard by the pier I spent like 40 min running around asking every NPC and they all gave me a rift on "sorry I don't know" until one random, non descript, shopkeep pointed me in the right direction. Likewise I had actually gone to the pier but nothing triggered until Ryo knows he has to go there.

I get this could have stemmed from budget because S3 doesnt have the complex number of NPC dialogue states as the originals but this could be streamlined for modern audiences. Make fewer NPC's interactable if they aren't going to be useful and make the main character interactions deeper.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Again, maybe I'm missing something but I don't know where he says this. He does mention the core gameplay is going around talking to NPC's who point you to other NPC's but he doesn't complain about that, just illustrating what you do in the game to segue into his actual complaint which is that some of the NPC's don't look very good (a bit of a stretch IMO given budget) and that the dialogue and voice acting is bad.

"No one ever really says anything. 95% of your conversations will be about where Ryo needs to go next with very little character given to these characters. Meaning that they are just living breathing sign post that just existence to point Ryo's destination".

Then he says that happened in S1 and was part of the charm but it was justified because it was a new way and so on, but nowadays its kinda old.

That's not an illustration at all. An illustration it's: "you'll have to investigate where's your next step talking with people around". This is a complain, and it is about the core of the game. Like I said, if you dont like this, you kinda dont like a crucial part of Shenmue. It's okay, I thought I'd liked F1 games, till I get one and spinned in the first sector. Now I just watch it on TV and thats it. Didnt waste anything.


About the publicity stuff, yeah sure, it wont affect the sales and it wont affect the public image of the game, whatever you say mate. Millions of marketing workers in the world totally agrees with you for sure. Lets just talk shit, nothing bad will happen*.

Spoiler

* disclaimer for trolls: you can talk shit about the game if you like, but please make it a reasonable shit, not a bunch of lies and shit that are actually Shenmue's stuff (specially when you are a fan).

 

[Zoltor]

People can dislike a game but i will never understand people complaining as if Shenmue III is the worst game of all time, i will never understand the title of this video. No, i will not see this video, the title of this video is insane and maybe clickbait.

I will never understand people saying that Shenmue is outdated, games are art, they are not outdated. Classical music is outdated? in my opinion of course not, in my opinion arts don't work this way, i never liked this word "outdated" to talk about games, maybe i'm the only one who thinks that.

Ryo can't jump on the games, this is a bad thing? no, this is outdated? no, this is just Yu Suzuki style, some people will like his style and some people will not like it.

Shenmue have to be like every modern game? of course not, Shenmue games needs guns to be good? of course not. Shenmue have to be like GTA? of course not, Shenmue have to be like Yakuza? of course not, Yu Suzuki have his style of doing games.

I'm not saying Shenmue III is perfect, i saw things that i disliked, i prefer the combat system of Shenmue I and II, i disliked other things on the game but i saw good things too, some people complained that Ryo can work in this game, some people complained about forklift being in the game, i will never understand this.

I will always be a Shenmue fan even if someday we get Shenmue 4 and maybe i will dislike the game, i will always respect Yu Suzuki.

Shenmue will never be a waste of time for me.

Thanks alot for destroying any reason for me to post a well thought out post on such, you pretty much covered everything, and said what I was going to say on such already.

Other then that, all I have to give is, I think the idea Shenmue is a evolution of the pure "adventure" genre, leaning more towards the simulator side of the scale, completely goes over people's heads. It's not suppose to be seen as a fighting game, just with a strong story, and it sure as hell not suppose to be seen as a beat'em up game, just with minigames tossed in it.

Shenmue is one of the 2 ultimate evolutions of the Adventure genre. You know what the other ultimate evolution is, Elite dangerous, so yea Shenmue shouldn't be compared to any of the games people seem to love comparing it to.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Not going to waste time watching this video and adding to its counter.

But I think that he wasted his life yes, because he wasn't a fan to begin with.
And I expain why: no fans would make a clickbait video with the purpose to damage his beloved series future.
And it's ever more vile if you get money from your videos...

I don't understand why shenmue 3 haters all have this urge to tell other people to stay away from the game.
And why at the same time we don't see shenmue 3 lovers doing the same with some positive clickbait videos like "10 reason why shenmue 3 is good", "why you shouldn't miss shenmue 3" or a more simple and honest "why shenmue 3 haters are all idiots" etc.?

If it's not clear we are still under attack here, majority of people would not waste 40 minute to hear a rant from random youtuber, but lots of people will read the clickbait title, and if it become viral...

Not going to watch.
I don't care if he made a few valid points, he lost me the moment he decided to use that clickbait title, knowing that he could make some direct damage to a series that he should love.

An honest fan that want to show his honest gripes about the game (even if any fan with a little brain knows that now it's not the time for this, with the series future at risk), would be more sensitive and discrete, there is no need to be a clown that desperately search for viewers and subscribers.
And I say it again, it only make him a vile person if he is damaging a once beloved series just for money.

Jeez, this is exactly what I'm trying to say. Thanks.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Page 9. People complaining about the capsule toys. Something that it's optional. Something that was already in previous series games. Something that kinda all modern games have nowadays (Hello, my name is Yakuza series)

What a wonderful thread.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Yeah Shenmue was a divisive game since the beginning.
Previously I said that Shenmue 3 also worked as a purge for fake fans.

Well reading on various forums I noticed that some of the so called fans complained about 3 for the same reasons people in 1999 complained for Shenmue 1, just like if Shenmue 3 was their first game in the series ("it's boring, why I have to talk to NPCs, why I have to work" etc.).

I find it really strange,
I still don't know what happened in some people mind during these 20 years, but I think it's safe to assume that some fans in 1999 were just fans of the graphics and liked the characters and story and nothing more. Your average Final Fantasy fan.
They probably never grasped the essence that made shenmue unique.
Now imagine how distorted this superficial love can become after 20 years... ("I wasted my life")

It just took one game with less "production values" to trasform fans in super-haters...

Dude. Please. Get out of my brain!

 

[iknifaugood]

He thinks Shenmue II is improved and basically points to the more exciting story as his reasoning. He doesn't go deep into it, though, maybe because he didn't actually think about it too hard, or because positivity didn't suit the video he was making

OR because S2 is obviously faster paced with more set pieces, story moments, locations, and characters, so it goes without saying (though I wish he went into more detail). If you play Shenmue for the story, and there are those of us who do, S2 is emblematic of the direction that we thought the series was going and, if anything, we thought that S3 would progress even farther in that direction (thanks in no small part to Suzuki claiming it would cover the most story, locations etc.). So S3 at best feels like a regression to S1's more drawn out pace (which doesn't suit the point of the story that we're at, nor is it an adequate payoff for the irl 20 year wait) and, at worst, a betrayal of everything we liked about the series. I totally get the vibe of the video even though I don't agree with everything about it; it could only have been made by a fan.

Like I said, if you dont like this, you kinda dont like a crucial part of Shenmue. It's okay, I thought I'd liked F1 games, till I get one and spinned in the first sector. Now I just watch it on TV and thats it. Didnt waste anything.

More like if you played an F1 game 20 years ago, liked it, then played one today and found that almost nothing had changed/been updated to modern standards, oh and also they fundamentally changed the driving mechanics for the worse, and you've played other racing games that do it better, then you'd have something like what he's talking about.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

I will never understand people complainning about every little thing. Some people are complainning about capsule toys, forklift, the phone calls, talking to NPCs, the cheesy dialogues,well... in my opinion the cheesy dialogues is one part of the essence of Shenmue.

One time i saw people complainning about the fact that Ryo can eat garlic in the game, this is insane. Some people waited 18 years to play this game and now they are complainning about every little thing.

Sure, people can complain all they want, all i am saying is that i will never understand this type of complaints.

Shenmue is really not for everyone. For me disc 4 of Shenmue II is one of the best experiences i had with games.

I love the slow pace in the first Shenmue, i love the slow pace in Bailu Village in Shenmue III,
the slow pace is not a flawn in my opinion, the cheesy dialogues are not flawns, they are part of Shenmue essence, i love Shenmue because of this things and much more.

Shenmue doesn't have to be like other modern games. I'm glad that Shenmue has its own essence. Some people will like this essence and some people will find boring and outdated. Games are not outdated, games are art.

“Modern society has become one of stimulation. It’s now mainstream for games to be fast-paced and high-impact in presentation to elicit emotion. I’d like to believe games like Shenmue can be a reaction to that and would help people enjoy a better peace of mind.” (Yu Suzuki)

 

[iknifaugood]

“Modern society has become one of stimulation. It’s now mainstream for games to be fast-paced and high-impact in presentation to elicit emotion. I’d like to believe games like Shenmue can be a reaction to that and would help people enjoy a better peace of mind.” (Yu Suzuki)

I'd like to see him ask for $60+M from Sega with that pitch.

If that's true then 1. How does he plan on attracting new players? and 2. Why does the game look like this in trailers?

Shenmue was conceived as an ultra-budget epic saga, the premise of which is part revenge story, part treasure hunt, part martial arts epic with a bombastic soundtrack; I'll never understand this notion that it's some slow, anti-mainstream game (the fact that Shenmue wasn't well received by the mainstream doesn't mean it wasn't trying to be). If Shenmue were made today it would look like a Rockstar or Naughty Dog game, not some weird experimental indie game.

 

[orient]

OR because S2 is obviously faster paced with more set pieces, story moments, locations, and characters, so it goes without saying (though I wish he went into more detail).

...I didn't say that opinion lacks merit, just that he didn't expand on his reasoning at all, while he comfortably found the time to whine about every issue he had with the first game. I think it's fair to question why that is...no need for the knee-jerk defense of S2.

So S3 at best feels like a regression to S1's more drawn out pace (which doesn't suit the point of the story that we're at, nor is it an adequate payoff for the irl 20 year wait)...

I like S1's pace, it's a huge part of why I fell in love with the series in the first place. I bet S3 would've been just as slow-paced if it was released in 2003 on Xbox (for most of the game, anyway), and I disagree that outside factors such as how long we waited should have any impact on that whatsoever.

...and, at worst, a betrayal of everything we liked about the series.

Ahhh, so that's what my brain looks like.

 

[iknifaugood]

while he comfortably found the time to whine about every issue he had with the first game.

When does he do this?

I think it's fair to question why that is...no need for the knee-jerk defense of S2.

It's totally fair. I'm not "defending" S2, I'm just illustrating what a lot of people on this forum seem to miss about fans who feel like SEPW and providing some possible insight into why he feels the way he feels about the series.

I bet S3 would've been just as slow-paced if it was released in 2003 on Xbox (for most of the game, anyway)

I assume that Bailu Village would always have been slow-paced, sure. But that's because it's supposed to be a huge exposition dump where we learn about the mirrors, the prophecy etc. There is no reason to assume that "most" of S3 would have been slow-paced anymore than there was reason to assume that S2 would be slow-paced for "most" of the game. Unless you think that S3 was always meant to be the way that it is.

I disagree that outside factors such as how long we waited should have any impact on that whatsoever.

In an ideal world I would agree with this sentiment but from everything I've heard, S3's ending was massively compromised which leads me to believe that Suzuki and his team fully intended for S3 to be more substantial than it is.

Ahhh, so that's what my brain looks like.

I said "we" referring to those of us who fit my description of people who play Shenmue for the story, not all Shenmue fans.

 

[GhostTrick]

Despite having this conversation multiple times, I feel like the point never gets through.
The issue with Shenmue III isn't that it's slow paced.
I love CD4. To me, it's one of the best gaming experience I ever had. Yet, it's slow as fuck. Why did I love it and disliked Shenmue III ?
Because the problem isn't that it's slow paced. The problem is the quality of what's being played/shown.

There's a lot of things you will find in Shenmue III mechanics that were in I and II. Yes, in I and II, you had to do tedious tasks at times. Yes, you had to to talk to people. Yes, at some point, you had money paywalls. Why is it a problem in III but not in I and II ?
Because of what each games are telling and doing. Because of the setting and the story telling.
Why I loved the Forklift in I ? Because it had an interesting investigation setting. It felt like infiltrating the harbor and investigating on a gang. But on top of that ? You had a shitload of characterisation. When you had a break time, you had those moments where you'd take a break with your colleagues. They had a story. They had characterisation. They made you feel compelled to this world. There was Mark. He's not a deep character, but he was likeable. He had his motives, his backstory felt touching. Things were happening. You also had the hobo. At first, he was a guy who you'd offer a drink. Then he was being assaulted by those thugs with a nice QTE. Then you learned that he was a martial artist. Then he taught you moves. You had Goro, wandering there, with his funny personnality. And the interactions with Mai.

This is why Shenmue I and II works and III falls flat: World building, characterisation, story telling. They all share a common DNA in term of mechanics. They have issues in term of pacing. But why is it okay in I and II but not III ? Because they offer something beyond those mechanics. While in III, those mechanics, those chores are the core mechanics. It's the big meat. It's the main course. It's the bad without the good.

This is also why people feel like there's nothing happening in III. Because that world feels like it's filled with generic, replaceable characters to which you never get attached, never remember their name nor anything else.

Shenmue II's CD4 is a 4 to 5 hours long walk, with some QTEs. Why does it work ? Because it's 4 to 5 hours of character interactions, that feels both natural, interesting and well acted for the time. Even though the visuals aged, it's still wonderfully done. You have Ryo and Shenhua walking in a more or less natural way. Despite walking, they still interact with each others. Shenhua teach you about her, her surrounding world. You feel invested. And then there's that camp fire scene. A true masterpiece. I could go on and on. But there's a clear quality gap between I/II and III. And that lies in the elements above, which feels lacking in III. I felt hyped by III despite the visuals for a reason: We had nice character artworks. I felt compelled. I felt like we'd get to interact with Mr Muscle. With the shrine maiden. With the hotel owner. For the first one, he's completly transparent. When it comes to Niao Sun, they completly dropped the ball. They had a huge opportunity to introduce that character with her fake identity, make her truly likeable and then get that plot twist. But it never happens. She appears 2 times and then you have the lame reveal, which was obvious the scene before. And for the two other characters, it's fairly superficial and never gets far. There is something I liked in III: The phone calls. They were the best part of III. Because they added character depth.

 

[BruceWayne911]

Despite having this conversation multiple times, I feel like the point never gets through.
The issue with Shenmue III isn't that it's slow paced.
I love CD4. To me, it's one of the best gaming experience I ever had. Yet, it's slow as fuck. Why did I love it and disliked Shenmue III ?
Because the problem isn't that it's slow paced. The problem is the quality of what's being played/shown.

There's a lot of things you will find in Shenmue III mechanics that were in I and II. Yes, in I and II, you had to do tedious tasks at times. Yes, you had to to talk to people. Yes, at some point, you had money paywalls. Why is it a problem in III but not in I and II ?
Because of what each games are telling and doing. Because of the setting and the story telling.
Why I loved the Forklift in I ? Because it had an interesting investigation setting. It felt like infiltrating the harbor and investigating on a gang. But on top of that ? You had a shitload of characterisation. When you had a break time, you had those moments where you'd take a break with your colleagues. They had a story. They had characterisation. They made you feel compelled to this world. There was Mark. He's not a deep character, but he was likeable. He had his motives, his backstory felt touching. Things were happening. You also had the hobo. At first, he was a guy who you'd offer a drink. Then he was being assaulted by those thugs with a nice QTE. Then you learned that he was a martial artist. Then he taught you moves. You had Goro, wandering there, with his funny personnality. And the interactions with Mai.

This is why Shenmue I and II works and III falls flat: World building, characterisation, story telling. They all share a common DNA in term of mechanics. They have issues in term of pacing. But why is it okay in I and II but not III ? Because they offer something beyond those mechanics. While in III, those mechanics, those chores are the core mechanics. It's the big meat. It's the main course. It's the bad without the good.

This is also why people feel like there's nothing happening in III. Because that world feels like it's filled with generic, replaceable characters to which you never get attached, never remember their name nor anything else.

Shenmue II's CD4 is a 4 to 5 hours long walk, with some QTEs. Why does it work ? Because it's 4 to 5 hours of character interactions, that feels both natural, interesting and well acted for the time. Even though the visuals aged, it's still wonderfully done. You have Ryo and Shenhua walking in a more or less natural way. Despite walking, they still interact with each others. Shenhua teach you about her, her surrounding world. You feel invested. And then there's that camp fire scene. A true masterpiece. I could go on and on. But there's a clear quality gap between I/II and III. And that lies in the elements above, which feels lacking in III. I felt hyped by III despite the visuals for a reason: We had nice character artworks. I felt compelled. I felt like we'd get to interact with Mr Muscle. With the shrine maiden. With the hotel owner. For the first one, he's completly transparent. When it comes to Niao Sun, they completly dropped the ball. They had a huge opportunity to introduce that character with her fake identity, make her truly likeable and then get that plot twist. But it never happens. She appears 2 times and then you have the lame reveal, which was obvious the scene before. And for the two other characters, it's fairly superficial and never gets far. There is something I liked in III: The phone calls. They were the best part of III. Because they added character depth.

I agree with your points but it all comes back to finances and the development team. Shenmue 1 and 2 had unlimited funds and a top notch development team. Moving forward we're gonna have to keep our expectations in check. IMO if we get Shenmue 5 we're never gonna match the quality of Shenmue 1&2.

 

[iknifaugood]

It's the bad without the good.

This. 100% this. Anytime I've ever recommended Shenmue to someone it's always with the caveat "the juice is worth the squeeze". It's pretty much the only game where I will put up with the shenanigans it asks of me because of the characters, setting, story, and overall vibe of the game. If the story gets its hooks in you, S1 and 2 always make it worth your time. Clearly that's not true of S3. When SEPW started yelling "why is this what you made?!" during the grinding part, I think I yelled the exact same thing during my play through.