Budget Is NOT An Excuse

[GhostTrick]

"Promised" is a strange way of looking at it.

Well actually, something was done the wrong way obviously.

The game was supposed to have 3 areas and a character perspective system.

Those two big features were cut.

So there's two solutions:
- Either it was a promise that couldn't be kept since the beginning.
- Or it was mismanaged.


Promised isn't a big word here. Now of course, things dont always go as planned. I dont think it's fair to blame someone when things go out of control. But I dont think it's fair to act as if nothing was ever said.

Decisions were taken indeed. I think it led to a disappointing game overall. But I can see the appeal for making such a decision and futureproofing a bigger game.

 

[orient]

I'm not pretending Yu didn't talk about possible inclusions, and I'm fine with people being disappointed in the decisions they made. That's different to saying the project was "mismanaged". Coming from people who presumably have never produced a Shenmue III-sized video game, I find that assumption to be fairly worthless.

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm not pretending Yu didn't talk about possible inclusions, and I'm fine with people being disappointed in the decisions they made. That's different to saying the project was "mismanaged". Coming from people who presumably have never produced a Shenmue III-sized video game, I find that assumption to be fairly worthless.

We're not talking about "possible inclusions". We are talking about elements that were main elements of the pitch. That were also main stretch goals too.

Also, the whole argument "you have never done it, so your opinion is worthless". I don't know how to build a house. But if someone was making a house and this one had an entire wall missing, even I would be able to say "hey, something is wrong about this house !". I wouldn't even be able to make that house myself, even with it's missing wall. It's far beyond my capabilities. But it doesn't mean I can't notice something wrong is going on.

 

[orient]

We're not talking about "possible inclusions". We are talking about elements that were main elements of the pitch. That were also main stretch goals too.

Also, the whole argument "you have never done it, so your opinion is worthless". I don't know how to build a house. But if someone was making a house and this one had an entire wall missing, even I would be able to say "hey, something is wrong about this house !". I wouldn't even be able to make that house myself, even with it's missing wall. It's far beyond my capabilities. But it doesn't mean I can't notice something wrong is going on.

I don't even know where you're going with the stretch goal stuff. It has nothing to do with what I was saying.

You're getting into strawman territory now. A house with a missing wall isn't a functioning house. Shenmue III is a fully-functioning video game -- it's simply weaker in some areas than others. They had to make cuts. They chose to prioritise the game world over story/character stuff. People can be upset and call it mismanagement all they want -- they are entitled to an opinion, even if they don't know anything about what happened in the background -- that much is true. It doesn't mean I need to respect that opinion.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't even know where you're going with the stretch goal stuff. It has nothing to do with what I was saying.

You're getting into strawman territory now. A house with a missing wall isn't a functioning house. Shenmue III is a fully-functioning video game -- it's simply weaker in some areas than others. They had to make cuts. They chose to prioritise the game world over story/character stuff. People can be upset and call it mismanagement all they want -- they are entitled to an opinion, even if they don't know anything about what happened in the background -- that much is true. It doesn't mean I need to respect that opinion.

It's not about Shenmue III being functionnal or not. My point is that you don't always need to be an expert or be able to do something to tell if something has issues.

Also the problem with Shenmue III is that the game world feels artificial and shallow, because it feels unpopulated, since the character developpement greatly suffered.

But as I said, it's not inherently wrong if it means building up for the next game.

 

[spud1897]

I stand by my point which seems to have kicked this off a little that Shenmue III is a game that installs the basis for Shenmue 4.

Yes it definitely lacks character development for sure. However from the interviews that have come out before and after release its clear that the team made a decision to flesh out the world/other activities than anything else. It's much more video game than story. Now that decision would have had the impact we've seen in the game, is it mismanagement? I don't think so. Mismanagement is running out of funds and us a broken/unplayable game.

Anyway my point being is that had they gone for a more story driven approach I promise you that there would have been the same amount of complaints about there being a lack of Shenmueness to the game. Not saying all would have of course but Shenmue is a combination of the two and they've gone for world over story. Had it gone the other way we'd be sat here discussing the decisions over a lack of mini-games etc.

Anyway people don't have to agree with that decision but maybe try to understand the reasons behind it.

 

[GhostTrick]

I stand by my point which seems to have kicked this off a little that Shenmue III is a game that installs the basis for Shenmue 4.

Yes it definitely lacks character development for sure. However from the interviews that have come out before and after release its clear that the team made a decision to flesh out the world/other activities than anything else. It's much more video game than story. Now that decision would have had the impact we've seen in the game, is it mismanagement? I don't think so. Mismanagement is running out of funds and us a broken/unplayable game.

Anyway my point being is that had they gone for a more story driven approach I promise you that there would have been the same amount of complaints about there being a lack of Shenmueness to the game. Not saying all would have of course but Shenmue is a combination of the two and they've gone for world over story. Had it gone the other way we'd be sat here discussing the decisions over a lack of mini-games etc.

Anyway people don't have to agree with that decision but maybe try to understand the reasons behind it.

For the record, I don't think it's mismanagement either. I also agree with your point, hence why I'm not mad, because while Shenmue III was a disappointment for me, at least it builds up enough gameplay elements and assets for the next game to be more fleshed out where it matters. If anything, that'd also explain why Shenhua and Ren gets so little screen time during Niaowu if they wanted to do the things in the next installments they couldn't do in 3 (character perspective system and the whole baisha stuff).

 

[GhostTrick]

Copy pasting my reply from another thread, because it's also related to that topic about "not being a budget issue", which is about cutscene direction:

To highlight what I mean with two specific exemple:

Ren in Shenmue II about the treasure:


Ren in Shenmue III about the treasure:


In the case of Shenmue II, each angles is carefully chosen, the scene is done with a lot of care and is focusing on the aesthetic. In the case of Shenmue III, you basically have a cheap travelling which looks odd, almost comical with the "hearing each one of them thinking".

And yes, I'm totally aware these aren't the same scenes at all. Which brings us to the next exemple: The cave cutscene:

The mirrors reveal in Shenmue II:


The mirrors reveal in Shemue III:


Notice how in Shenmue II, the reveal of the mirrors is slow, completly unlit, and only showing up slowly enough fire are lit. And I'm not only talking about a lighting standpoint, it's also about the camera angle. The mirrors are shown in a slow buildup. In Shenmue 3 though ? It's shown lit, pretty fast with a cheap rotation of the scene.
When the mirrors are finally revealed, you get a rotation in 2, then a nice angle with the characters face, discovering the mirrors:

But in 3 ? Well, you get the rotation, done in a less climatic way... and this:

Shenhua then proceeds to tell in both cases that's what her father was carving. In Shenmue II, you have a subtle wait with another wide view of the mirrors, to build up momentum on the scene. Shenhua then proceeds to put her hand on her chest and tell the poem, Ryo then softly turns his head around to listen:

In Shenmue 3 though ?
Shenhua instantly tell the poem after saying that her father was carving this, without any other movement, without building any momentum on the scene, Ryo then already has his head turned toward her:

Then comes the "I shall wait..." line, with the camera slowly coming toward Shenhua in II:

In 3 though ? The camera decided to say "hey, fuck this, let's make a rotation on the fire":

The next plan is pretty similar in both games, except when it comes to the "single star shall shine, alone"
In Shenmue II, you have the camera moving from Ryo's face to Shenhua's face, who's still telling the poem with a lot of determination and concentration:

In Shenmue III, she's only facing the camera, as if she was reading a prompter:

I wont even touch the ending of the scene because in II, they build it up in such a mystic way, making you understand that these two characters have a strong bond by fate.
In III though ? Well... the scene ends and they turn back to go outside as if they just witnessed something normal.

This is what amateurish means. This is what I'm saying and now explaining with pictures and video.
Both scenes are telling the same thing. Both scenes are conveying the same idea. The difference is that the one from 17 years ago is done in a far better way. The angles are carefully choosen. The way the character moves is meaningful. And a strong tension is being built to deliver one of the best scene you can ever witness in a video game. The one from 2019 though is doing a decent job at conveying the idea that they found two big mirrors. But nothing else. The characters barely interact, no momentum is built, no relation is being built on screen.

This is not a budget issue. This is not a "not enough story" issue. This is an issue of story telling, cutscene direction, call it whatever you want. And this is where Shenmue III disappoint me the most.

 

[24Nathan]

I can get on board with that. A step down in production on that end, even though some of the scenes I think do have great direction. Like Sun teaching the body check
Loved that!

 

[Creward]

Copy pasting my reply from another thread, because it's also related to that topic about "not being a budget issue", which is about cutscene direction:

While I agree on the direction is a hell lot weaker budget does kinda affect the cutscenes. What budget affects in this area:
* What art/story director you have. The better it is the expensier.
* How much expertise the team has with the engine and fighting against it. And the whole game shows they had to actively learn a lot of UE4 from scratch.
* Prioritization. When resources are scarced and the game is brokenish while developing I suspect the cutscene direction are not the onesbeing prioritized. Aka we need to have a finished product ASAP that does not break.
* How many iterations per cutscene you can afford to spend the art team to have until it is good enough vs iterations taken agains making a cutscene great. I suspect it is not quite lineal effort.
* How many cutscenes there are is also a factor. I did not count them but I kinda suspect shenmue has a decent amount for the small team it had. Might be mistaken.
* And also voiceacting. Once the lines are recorded changing a single line becomes quite expensive as in game dev it is usually one of the lattest steps as it involves renting a studio, fetch the actors and have something like a few weeks recording all the necessary voicr actor to minimise the time you have the studio and people contracted.

 

[GhostTrick]

While I agree on the direction is a hell lot weaker budget does kinda affect the cutscenes. What budget affects in this area:
* What art/story director you have. The better it is the expensier.
* How much expertise the team has with the engine and fighting against it. And the whole game shows they had to actively learn a lot of UE4 from scratch.
* Prioritization. When resources are scarced and the game is brokenish while developing I suspect the cutscene direction are not the onesbeing prioritized. Aka we need to have a finished product ASAP that does not break.
* How many iterations per cutscene you can afford to spend the art team to have until it is good enough vs iterations taken agains making a cutscene great. I suspect it is not quite lineal effort.
* How many cutscenes there are is also a factor. I did not count them but I kinda suspect shenmue has a decent amount for the small team it had. Might be mistaken.
* And also voiceacting. Once the lines are recorded changing a single line becomes quite expensive as in game dev it is usually one of the lattest steps as it involves renting a studio, fetch the actors and have something like a few weeks recording all the necessary voicr actor to minimise the time you have the studio and people contracted.

Indeed. My point is only about the cutscene direction.

 

[Crimson]

* And also voiceacting. Once the lines are recorded changing a single line becomes quite expensive as in game dev it is usually one of the lattest steps as it involves renting a studio, fetch the actors and have something like a few weeks recording all the necessary voicr actor to minimise the time you have the studio and people contracted.

The recording is usually done in the last months of the production and usually delivered to the developers a few weeks before the game is finalized. Still, changing one line may cost a few hundred dollars at most. The difficult part is scheduling it so that it doesn't impact on the release date.

One more thing: YsNet is composed of a few veterans like Yu Suzuki but mostly young and inexperienced developers. It's nothing like AM2 (which was also 200 people strong). It's not just s matter of money... Suzuki after the Kickstarter had to make his new team in little time, not an easy feat. I'm sure though that they all learnt s lot. In other words, remember that this is the first game of s brand new team :)

 

[Reprise]

And yes, for some the control scheme where you cannot turn character 180 in a split second may be considered outdated.

Wot?