Does the lack of Shenmue 4 change your opinion of Shenmue 3?

[SMDzero]

You're way off mate. Allow me to jujitsu all your points:

This is an interesting way to think about it and I fully understand that some people were simply happy with S3 from the KS; but I never viewed S3 as the goal in and of itself, rather the revival/continuation of the series as a whole. The Donner Cut of Superman 2 was always just meant to give fans a taste of what might have been, not to revive that particular version of Superman with future sequels. That honor belongs to Superman Returns, which might actually be a better point of comparison to S3 as far as Superman movies go (though the budget is obviously a very different thing).

Shenmue 3 just like the Donner Cut was just to give fans a taste of what might have been.

Richard Donner never finished Superman II and likewise YS never made Shenmue 3 as originally intended with a AAA budget and the AM2 team.

Donner was forced to use a screen-test for a pivotal scene in his incomplete movie just like YS was forced to scotch-tape together unused assets from Niaowu for the Castle "finale."

Neither the Donner Cut nor Shenmue 3 in any way resembles what we could have gotten back in 1980 and 2003 respectively due to lack of budget. All they represent is a taste a mere taste of what might have been.

Also Donner did work on a Superman comic book…. maybe YS will release a manga?

Obviously S3 doesn't have cutscenes on part with $100M+ productions, however I'm not one of those people that thinks that S3 has terrible cutscene direction (I actually think most of the proper cutscenes are very competent); my issue is almost entirely with the content of the cutscenes. For instance, why do we have two bombastic chases through Niaowu, easily on par in terms of complexity with anything in S2, with random thugs? If the budget is tight, those QTEs should be on things that matter, but then the game itself needs to be about things that matter.

Hey those two chases in Niaowu cost half YS Net's budget! YS was likely very proud of those two scenes because every Shenmue game needs at least one good chase scene. Ryo always chased random thugs too.... what did you expect Ryo to comically chase Niao Sun and she turns around and flashes him causing a QTE fail?

This scene in S2 of Ryo dispatching 4 goons isn't "better directed" than any of the action scenes in S3, but the sequence itself is better from a conceptual POV and that's what most people take issue with. S3 has a very similar sequence in its ending, but instead of Ryo taking out random CYM guards (who he's already beaten multiple of), he's taking out seemingly cool looking bodyguards with relative ease and a weirdly comedic tone (even Ren gets to kick one). That's the kind of thing that leaves people utterly baffled. There are lots of deeply weird, intentional decisions like this all over S3.

I have no idea what you're talking about. First you complain about not chasing significant people then you complain about Lan Di's bodyguards NOT being randos?

Besides the bodyguards were meant to be comic relief before the final showdown with Lan Di.

Just look at the bodyguards..... a senile elderly man with a ponytail and cargo shorts? A Bruce Lee reject? Some middle aged obese man who looks like Joe the Plumber?

The scene was supposed to be comedic in nature. The joke is that Lan Di is so powerful he can afford to rely on these cut rate dime-store nincompoops. Besides Shenmue had humor before “gotta hit the can my man” ring a bell?

This is true but the majority of criticism behind S3 (at least that I've seen) isn't really like this. It's actually sad because in the wake of S3, many fans no longer care about the future of the series, which is crazy given the outpouring of love that the KS got. I don't remember anyone playing even the worst RE game and then giving up on the series. But then again, even the worst selling mainline RE game (Code Veronica) sold about as much as the best selling Shenmue game on the same console (more than twice as much when you include the ports), so it's not like the series was ever at risk of dying.

Yes, Shenmue 3 is the worst game in the series but what were these "fans" expecting?

Shenmue 3 gave us everything we could possibly ask for given that YS had almost no money to make it.

YS was given $7M from the fans, Shibuya threw in $1M and Deep Silver threw in another $5M.

That's just $13M and you take out Kickstarter Fees, Reward Fulfillment fees, income tax, payroll taxes, liability insurance, office rent, computer rentals, furniture rentals, telephony and IT fees, employee health insurance fees, attorney fees... YS Net probably OWED money when all is said and done and maybe can't make S4 until they're out of hoc.

 

[iknifaugood]

Neither the Donner Cut nor Shenmue 3 in any way resembles what we could have gotten back in 1980 and 2003 respectively due to lack of budget. All they represent is a taste a mere taste of what might have been.

Shenmue 3 just like the Donner Cut was just to give fans a taste of what might have been.

This works as a sort of post-hoc rationalization for how things wound up, but certainly not how the KS was pitched. While I don't think anyone backing the KS thought we were going to get a game on the scale of games that cost orders of magnitude more to produce, I completely disagree that the idea was to back a project for a "taste" of what might have been. I was pretty sure we were reviving Shenmue, full stop.

Richard Donner never finished Superman II and likewise YS never made Shenmue 3 as originally intended with a AAA budget and the AM2 team.

Donner was forced to use a screen-test for a pivotal scene in his incomplete movie just like YS was forced to scotch-tape together unused assets from Niaowu for the Castle "finale."

Superman 1 and 2 were filmed in tandem, similar to how Shenmue 1 and 2 were developed, with Superman 2 ultimately receiving about the same budget as the first film. Donner had the project taken from him with only about 30% of his footage used in the final film and the Donner cut restores most of that lost footage so technically a good chunk of the Donner cut does represent what fans would have gotten in the 80s. Thus far, every Shenmue game has been 100% Suzuki's; your reasoning seems to rob him of a lot of responsibility.

And, like I said, the most important distinction is that S3 was never the end goal; the end goal was to complete the series whereas the Donner cut of Superman 2 was the end goal.

Hey those two chases in Niaowu cost half YS Net's budget! YS was likely very proud of those two scenes because every Shenmue game needs at least one good chase scene.

Then let's have one good chase scene and put the rest of the budget to good use.

Ryo always chased random thugs too.... what did you expect

My criticism is not that he's chasing random thugs, it's that that scene represents the biggest QTE sequence of the game. If the budget is so limited, put it where it counts. Also it needs be said that in Shenmue 2, Ryo gets extensive QTE chases with Wong, Ren, Dou Niu, and Yuan; none of whom are random thugs.

what did you expect Ryo to comically chase Niao Sun and she turns around and flashes him causing a QTE fail?

I have no idea what you're talking about. First you complain about not chasing significant people then you complain about Lan Di's bodyguards NOT being randos?

Again, I was not complaining about chasing random thugs, nor was my complaint that Lan Di's bodyguards are not random thugs. My point is that, in both games, Ryo dispatches a few goons in quick single-button QTEs in the lead up to the final boss; why it works in S2 and not in S3 has nothing to do with budget or direction or whatever but the intentional concept of the scene. I think you'll agree that if instead of the cool cage fight, Master Baihu was one of the guards walking down the steps and Ryo quickly kicked him in the face with a single button press, that would perhaps have diminished his impact quite a bit?

Besides the bodyguards were meant to be comic relief before the final showdown with Lan Di.

Just look at the bodyguards..... a senile elderly man with a ponytail and cargo shorts? A Bruce Lee reject? Some middle aged obese man who looks like Joe the Plumber?

The scene was supposed to be comedic in nature. The joke is that Lan Di is so powerful he can afford to rely on these cut rate dime-store nincompoops.

You're arguing that the scene is intentionally funny and it's good; I'm arguing that the scene is intentionally funny and it's bad (which is funny since inappropriately placed comedy is one of the main criticisms against Superman 2's theatrical release). As evidence though, I would submit every other scene with Lan Di in it; where everything is played as serious as a heart attack. When Lan Di is on screen, much less when we're steps away from fighting him...

Besides Shenmue had humor before “gotta hit the can my man” ring a bell?

Yes I remember that scene happens right before Chai kicks a girder onto Guizhang's leg

Yes, Shenmue 3 is the worst game in the series but what were these "fans" expecting?

A good game?

Shenmue 3 gave us everything we could possibly ask for given that YS had almost no money to make it.

No need to get into the weeds of this for the umpteenth time but clearly fans disagree that S3 gave us everything we could possibly ask for. It would not have required a significant increase in budget to learn about the poem or Iwao and Sunming's time in Bailu etc. etc.

YS was given $7M from the fans, Shibuya threw in $1M and Deep Silver threw in another $5M.

That's just $13M

From everything I've heard the budget was approximately $20M, though I fully admit to not knowing how this is broken down or when each amount was procured.

you take out Kickstarter Fees, Reward Fulfillment fees, income tax, payroll taxes, liability insurance, office rent, computer rentals, furniture rentals, telephony and IT fees, employee health insurance fees, attorney fees... YS Net probably OWED money when all is said and done and maybe can't make S4 until they're out of hoc.

Correct! This is why I keep harping on about how financially irresponsible S3 was and how, moving forward, the series needs to have a dramatically reduced scope/budget to be successful. It should be more than possible to do.

 

[SMDzero]

This works as a sort of post-hoc rationalization for how things wound up, but certainly not how the KS was pitched. While I don't think anyone backing the KS thought we were going to get a game on the scale of games that cost orders of magnitude more to produce, I completely disagree that the idea was to back a project for a "taste" of what might have been. I was pretty sure we were reviving Shenmue, full stop.

By definition it's impossible to revive Shenmue a AAA game with an Indie shoestring budget.

Are you gonna "revive" Thanksgiving by dumpster diving outside a dog food factory? It can't be done.

Superman 1 and 2 were filmed in tandem, similar to how Shenmue 1 and 2 were developed, with Superman 2 ultimately receiving about the same budget as the first film. Donner had the project taken from him with only about 30% of his footage used in the final film and the Donner cut restores most of that lost footage so technically a good chunk of the Donner cut does represent what fans would have gotten in the 80s. Thus far, every Shenmue game has been 100% Suzuki's; your reasoning seems to rob him of a lot of responsibility.

The Donner Cut in no way looks like the completed film we would have gotten in 1980. Donner took his time with STM and had to rush through his SII scenes just to get them "in the can" knowing that he could do reshoots later to polish it all up. Notice Reeve's sub-par acting in the Brando scenes. Just like Peter Jackson took his time making Fellowship of the Ring a complete movie and just had unpolished pieces of Two Towers and Return of the King both of which required an entire year of pick up shots to get them up to snuff.

Likewise YS had like 5 people working in S3.... every time something in the game was created in a rough form he was forced to "move on" just to get a some semblance of a game done. Why do you think the fighting system is so half baked? "just push buttons" YS had to create a rough sketch of a fighting system and then move on to the next half baked thing.

And, like I said, the most important distinction is that S3 was never the end goal; the end goal was to complete the series whereas the Donner cut of Superman 2 was the end goal.

Not true. The goal was always to get Shenmue 3. Perhaps no one in their right mind assumed YS would not complete the story in 3 but nonetheless the campaign was for Shenmue 3 and nothing more. It would have been nice if it could have parleyed into a S4 but -oh well- at least we can chill out in the "Save Shenmue" Shrine and play Spin the Big Wheel.

Then let's have one good chase scene and put the rest of the budget to good use.

S3 would feel so hollow just having 1 chase scene. It would be like getting only 1 gift on Christmas. At least with 2 is sorta creates the illusion that there are many.

My criticism is not that he's chasing random thugs, it's that that scene represents the biggest QTE sequence of the game. If the budget is so limited, put it where it counts. Also it needs be said that in Shenmue 2, Ryo gets extensive QTE chases with Wong, Ren, Dou Niu, and Yuan; none of whom are random thugs.

True. But remember S3 was only trying to live up to the standard of S1. S4 could have aspired to be more like S2.

Again, I was not complaining about chasing random thugs, nor was my complaint that Lan Di's bodyguards are not random thugs. My point is that, in both games, Ryo dispatches a few goons in quick single-button QTEs in the lead up to the final boss; why it works in S2 and not in S3 has nothing to do with budget or direction or whatever but the intentional concept of the scene. I think you'll agree that if instead of the cool cage fight, Master Baihu was one of the guards walking down the steps and Ryo quickly kicked him in the face with a single button press, that would perhaps have diminished his impact quite a bit?

I agree but when you consider that we're never gonna see Master Baihu again even if there's a S4 and 5 you realize that all that sequence ever was was a dressed up final street fight. No more no less. Master Baihu probably went back to his squalid 1 room apartment in Kowloon cooked himself a can of beans on his hot plate and contemplated his life as an abject failure. Probably had to return his Halloween costume to affords a pair of clean underwear as well.

You're arguing that the scene is intentionally funny and it's good; I'm arguing that the scene is intentionally funny and it's bad (which is funny since inappropriately placed comedy is one of the main criticisms against Superman 2's theatrical release). As evidence though, I would submit every other scene with Lan Di in it; where everything is played as serious as a heart attack. When Lan Di is on screen, much less when we're steps away from fighting him...
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I'd say there was arguably some "high level" comedy with Lan Di in S1 and 2 that we didn't see.

Like how did the black suits actually dig up the Dragon Mirror? With their hands? Did they have to dig up multiple holes like a dog? That black suit brought the mirror to Lan Di like a dog proud of his bone.

In S2, Lan Di hanging on that rope ladder was sorta funny. Can you imagine if this happened?

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Yes I remember that scene happens right before Chai kicks a girder onto Guizhang's leg

No doubt that girder put pressure on Guizhang's bladder. Why do you think he neglected to get on that boat... he had to change his soiled suit!

Correct! This is why I keep harping on about how financially irresponsible S3 was and how, moving forward, the series needs to have a dramatically reduced scope/budget to be successful. It should be more than possible to do.

YS should have set the kickstarter at $10 Million and it would have easily been hit. Then YS should have simply reneged on all the Kickstarter rewards and used the money saved for a better S3. No Shenmue fan would have whined about not getting their reward if it meant a better Shenmue 3 game. And if they did what could they do? YS was all the way in Japan and no law enforcement agency in the US is gonna take a Shenmue related complaint seriously.

 

[iknifaugood]

By definition it's impossible to revive Shenmue a AAA game with an Indie shoestring budget.

I just fundamentally disagree with this. I think Shenmue is an interesting story with a unique setting and genre (as far as games go) first, and a AAA spectacle second. For instance, as I outlined to @spud1897 , you could easily make Shenmue profitable by making it much lower in scope and cost effective to produce; you could not do the same for, say, Uncharted (because that game is basically 100% spectacle).

Likewise YS had like 5 people working in S3.... every time something in the game was created in a rough form he was forced to "move on" just to get a some semblance of a game done.

I'm not sure how true this is; this is who's credited with working on the game: https://www.mobygames.com/game/137440/shenmue-iii/credits/playstation-4/

Why do you think the fighting system is so half baked? "just push buttons" YS had to create a rough sketch of a fighting system and then move on to the next half baked thing.

Because Suzuki was too busy misguidedly pandering to what people think of when they think of Shenmue. Sifu was created for a similar budget to S3 and that game's fighting system rocks.

The goal was always to get Shenmue 3. Perhaps no one in their right mind assumed YS would not complete the story in 3 but nonetheless the campaign was for Shenmue 3 and nothing more.

While I understand that the KS campaign was only for S3, the end goal (ie: the reason to revive it) was to finish the series, not to swap one cliffhanger ending for another. He began the KS by saying that the story was left incomplete and the hashtag was to save Shenmue. Clearly the implication was that we were reviving the series; that revival was put in jeopardy when Shenmue 3 (already a hard sell for a variety of reasons) had to somehow prove profitable beyond the initial KS.

S3 would feel so hollow just having 1 chase scene. It would be like getting only 1 gift on Christmas. At least with 2 is sorta creates the illusion that there are many.

I actually agree with this but then they should have been better contextualized and/or involved key characters or higher stakes. They had to be more different.

True. But remember S3 was only trying to live up to the standard of S1. S4 could have aspired to be more like S2.

I know this is sort of accepted as truth but was this ever outright stated by anyone? S1 is the Shire, it's the prologue, the third entry in the series (of a potential 5) is where tensions should be ramping (we're partway through the Two Towers), not harkening back to the beginning of the story.

I agree but when you consider that we're never gonna see Master Baihu again even if there's a S4 and 5

I thought the same thing about Chai...

all that sequence ever was was a dressed up final street fight. No more no less. Master Baihu probably went back to his squalid 1 room apartment in Kowloon cooked himself a can of beans on his hot plate and contemplated his life as an abject failure. Probably had to return his Halloween costume to affords a pair of clean underwear as well.

But S2 made the most of this moment; instead of just rescuing Joy we got a really cool, memorable mini boss out of it. Seems like S3 was primed to deliver something like this with Lan Di's bodyguards (maybe they were supposed to be the fight that ultimately ended up being against KS backers?). I can't imagine wasting money on unique character models and animations at the climax of a game this budget/content starved for a joke.

I'd agree there was arguably some "high level" comedy with Lan Di in S1 and 2 that we didn't see.

Like how did the black suits actually dig up the Dragon Mirror? With their hands? Did they have to dig up multiple holes like a dog? That black suit brought the mirror to Lan Di like a dog proud of his bone.

In S2, Lan Di hanging on that rope ladder was sorta funny. Can you imagine if this happened?

Definitely gave me a good chuckle and yes I (along with every fan I think) thought about that at some point.

YS should have simply reneged on all the Kickstarter rewards and used the money saved for a better S3. No Shenmue fan would have whined about not getting their reward if it meant a better Shenmue 3 game.

Amen to that. I didn't even receive my KS rewards (I was moving at the time so I'm pretty sure there were mail shenanigans) and it never really bothered me all that much for the exact reason that I would prefer YSNet spend the money on the game.

 

[SMDzero]

I just fundamentally disagree with this. I think Shenmue is an interesting story with a unique setting and genre (as far as games go) first, and a AAA spectacle second. For instance, as I outlined to @spud1897 , you could easily make Shenmue profitable by making it much lower in scope and cost effective to produce; you could not do the same for, say, Uncharted (because that game is basically 100% spectacle).

But Shenmue and Uncharted are similar in that their narratives are location based. Shenmue is supposed to be about a boy traveling throughout China to ostensibly get revenge but ultimately to become a better martial artist and a man.

Can you imagine if the Shenmue story was entirely contained to Yokosuka? Technically there’s no reason why Ryo can’t have his entire story told in Yokosuka but it would suck.

If you want Shenmue 4 to just get on with the story then might as well just skip straight to Meng Cun and condense everything there. The Cliff Temple can just be an FMV.

I'm not sure how true this is; this is who's credited with working on the game: https://www.mobygames.com/game/137440/shenmue-iii/credits/playstation-4/

Well maybe about 70 people worked on the game. But S1 and S2 had hundreds and hundreds of people working on the games. YS had an army of elite programmers and artists working under his command. For S3 he had relatively few and inexperienced people working for him. Hell his own writer didn’t even come back probably because YS not being able to afford him which also impacted the story.

Because Suzuki was too busy misguidedly pandering to what people think of when they think of Shenmue. Sifu was created for a similar budget to S3 and that game's fighting system rocks.

Sifus fighting system certainly looks good…. but does it come down to essentially mashing just a couple of buttons like in most games? Does it have dozens of unique moves like in Shenmue? The whole reward system of Shenmue is learning a new move so there has to be a lot.

While I understand that the KS campaign was only for S3, the end goal (ie: the reason to revive it) was to finish the series, not to swap one cliffhanger ending for another. He began the KS by saying that the story was left incomplete and the hashtag was to save Shenmue. Clearly the implication was that we were reviving the series; that revival was put in jeopardy when Shenmue 3 (already a hard sell for a variety of reasons) had to somehow prove profitable beyond the initial KS.

I agree. As soon as YS said part 3 would only take us to 40% story I knew that could be an issue. I was hoping we’d get to 75% or at least 66%. But 40? That’s damn low. Like brand new players could just start with part 4 and still get a strong majority of the story. Parts 1-3 are just the first act like a New Hope. Shenmue 4 will be like the Empire Strikes Back where things get real. Hopefully there will be a love triangle between Ryo Ren and Shenhua. Gotta admit Shenhua is pretty attractive in S3. I know she’s “supposed” to be underage at 16 but you gotta admit that YS redesigned her to look more like a pretty early 20 something in S3.

And the gossipy women in Bailu Village will not shut up about how Ryo and Shenhua should be boyfriend and girlfriend. Hopefully Ryo ends up with Nozomi though… but since we’re not going back to Yokosuka (or Canada) I sorta doubt it.

I know this is sort of accepted as truth but was this ever outright stated by anyone? S1 is the Shire, it's the prologue, the third entry in the series (of a potential 5) is where tensions should be ramping (we're partway through the Two Towers), not harkening back to the beginning of the story.

Well you gotta crawl before you walk. YS started the crawl with S1, walked with S2 and by disc 4 was flying.

S3 represents a hard reset so we’re back to crawling again. But S4 can get us back to S2 levels.

But S2 made the most of this moment; instead of just rescuing Joy we got a really cool, memorable mini boss out of it. Seems like S3 was primed to deliver something like this with Lan Di's bodyguards (maybe they were supposed to be the fight that ultimately ended up being against KS backers?). I can't imagine wasting money on unique character models and animations at the climax of a game this budget/content starved for a joke.

Lan Dis bodyguards likely would have been sub bosses during the Baisha section. Remember Baisha was truly gonna show what Shenmue 3 was all about. Id reckon that Bailu Village and Niaowu were supposed to be just the appetizer while Baisha would have been the entree, dessert and the dance.

Amen to that. I didn't even receive my KS rewards (I was moving at the time so I'm pretty sure there were mail shenanigans) and it never really bothered me all that much for the exact reason that I would prefer YSNet spend the money on the game.

Yes the $10k backers would have probably felt a little jilted but at least they would understand when they got Shenmue 3 with Baisha in it.

YSs message at the end of the credits could have been.

To our Shenmue fans,

First, I want to thank the legion of loyal Shenmue fans for their unwavering enthusiasm and support over the past years - your dedication has truly been invaluable.

As you all undoubtedly know, I decided not to fulfill any of the Kickstarter rewards.

I realize that this announcement is a difficult one for many people to swallow, particularly the $10k backers and I sincerely apologize. While I cannot detail all of the reasons that led up to this decision, I can tell you that it was made with the long-term interests of Shenmue fans in mind. No matter how difficult it seems, I want you to understand that any difficult choices are based on one bottom line: ensuring the longevity of the beloved Shenmue franchise, including Shenmue 4 5 and 6. YS Net is working hard to make the necessary decisions to drive our business forward while at the same time continuing to support our loyal fans.

Although you didn’t get your promised rewards -- you at least got Shenmue 3. Although the ride has sometimes been rocky, our promise to our fans is this: We will continue to push the boundaries of gaming with new content and technology. We will continue to deliver new and innovative games. We will continue to put out the games that no one else can. We will continue to be YS Net and bring you only the best that gaming has to offer.

Bear with us - the ride is going to get a lot smoother...

Best Regards,

Yu Suzuki

 

[iknifaugood]

But Shenmue and Uncharted are similar in that their narratives are location based.

Yes but diverse locations aren't what makes these games expensive. Shenmue was expensive to produce at the time because it was on the bleeding edge of tech and Uncharted is expensive because of set pieces like this:

A Shenmue game without an emphasis on graphics and rendering 100 butcher shops that you never need to enter would cut the costs dramatically without needing to cut content.

If you want Shenmue 4 to just get on with the story then might as well just skip straight to Meng Cun and condense everything there. The Cliff Temple can just be an FMV

Unless those manuscripts Suzuki's been carrying around for decades are actually full of Ryo fighting different color themed gangs, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to the story of Shenmue to get through. I could be wrong though.

Hell his own writer didn’t even come back probably because YS not being able to afford him which also impacted the story.

Is this true? I know he was supposed to come back and did in some capacity, but did he leave because of money?

Sifus fighting system certainly looks good…. but does it come down to essentially mashing just a couple of buttons like in most games? Does it have dozens of unique moves like in Shenmue? The whole reward system of Shenmue is learning a new move so there has to be a lot.

You certainly can't button mash in Sifu but it's much more modern than Shenmue and less reliant on moves and more reliant on enemy variety and counter-play. I agree that Shenmue needs a lot of moves but the combat system could also use a bit of an overhaul (and be properly tutorialized), there's a lot about S1 and 2 that's painfully esoteric, especially on a first play through.

As soon as YS said part 3 would only take us to 40% story I knew that could be an issue.

I would love to see what percentages he considers each game to cover.

Lan Dis bodyguards likely would have been sub bosses during the Baisha section. Remember Baisha was truly gonna show what Shenmue 3 was all about. Id reckon that Bailu Village and Niaowu were supposed to be just the appetizer while Baisha would have been the entree, dessert and the dance.

I'm very curious how Baisha would have made S3 different, especially the ending, because I just can't picture the ending being substantially different. Like at what point would we have even gone to Baisha?

Yes the $10k backers would have probably felt a little jilted but at least they would understand when they got Shenmue 3 with Baisha in it.

Probably wouldn't have gone over worse than the EGS shenanigans.

 

[SMDzero]

Yes but diverse locations aren't what makes these games expensive. Shenmue was expensive to produce at the time because it was on the bleeding edge of tech and Uncharted is expensive because of set pieces like this:

Yeah those Uncharted chases certainly look pricey... but they really come down to just a wiz bang set piece that you play once and then forget about like a rollercoaster with a 1 ride limit.

Shenmues environments are more impressive entire towns are recreated with hundreds of unique NPCs each fully voiced with fully dynamic responses. A town where you can open every drawer and pick up every orange. YS wanted to create a world you could live in so immersive that you could literally SMELL it.

Todays rotten youth would rather play a game where you can steal cars and kill police officers and hookers. I would rather pick up and smell an orange thank you very much.

A Shenmue game without an emphasis on graphics and rendering 100 butcher shops that you never need to enter would cut the costs dramatically without needing to cut content.

A Shenmue game without an abundance of useless detail just wouldn’t be Shenmue.

The environments would lose their character and impact without these wonderful details. Wasn’t it cool arriving in Niaowu and having all the town vendors bombarding you with their sales pitches? That’s worlds better than a meaningless action set pieces meant to appeal to “dude bro” gamers who spend all their time drinking Mountain Dew eating Doritos and playing Call of Duty.

Unless those manuscripts Suzuki's been carrying around for decades are actually full of Ryo fighting different color themed gangs, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to the story of Shenmue to get through. I could be wrong though.

I’ll tell you one thing, there’s NEVER gonna be a scene in Shenmue where we see Tentei hold court with the 4 Chi You Men bosses. There’s never gonna be a scene where someone sits Ryo’s wooden ass down and explains to him the precise meaning of the poem. There’s never gonna a be a scene where Lan Di and Niao Sun fight about who should lead the CYM. Shenmue will always be a detective story where Ryo is perpetually 1 step behind everything and everyone just barely gleaning enough information to get him to his next destination and maybe just MAYBE and encounter with Lan Di.

Remember you don’t “play” Shenmue, you LIVE Shenmue.

Is this true? I know he was supposed to come back and did in some capacity, but did he leave because of money?

I’d like to believe to believe that myself but I don’t know what really happened. But I do know that Mashahiro Yoshimoto suddenly disappeared and that Yu Suzuki brought Yoshimoto’s original scripts to Japan.

Yoshimoto and Suzuki were best friends and together they would have become a legendary team.

there's a lot about S1 and 2 that's painfully esoteric, especially on a first play through.

I agree. Especially having to crank your head 90 degrees just to read the moves in S1 DC.

In S2 can you even train your moves?? I don’t think I ever did.

You gotta admit that the training in S3 is superior. Very easy to grasp. Plus who doesn’t want to spar with the cute girls in the Sunflower Grove and Muren Cafe?

In S2 you were forced to “train” with that old senile bastard in the park. Jiamin is so physically unappealing he makes even Master Chen look fetching by comparison.

I would love to see what percentages he considers each game to cover.

Shenmue 1: 0%-10%

Shenmue 2: 10%-39.9%

Shenmue 3: 39.9%-40%

I'm very curious how Baisha would have made S3 different, especially the ending, because I just can't picture the ending being substantially different. Like at what point would we have even gone to Baisha?

Shenhua would have been kidnapped and taken to Baisha. Ryo and the gang in Niaowu would have gone to Baisha to rescue her. The bulk of the side character development could have happened there.

Gotta say that the worst thing about Baisha being cut was the guestbook at the Niaowu hotel room. A backer signed that they were going off the Baisha! Talk about crushing disappointment.

Probably wouldn't have gone over worse than the EGS shenanigans.

I still don’t get that. Hopefully the people who got refunds ended up still buying the game on PS4 at least.

 

[iknifaugood]

Yeah those Uncharted chases certainly look pricey... but they really come down to just a wiz bang set piece that you play once and then forget about like a rollercoaster with a 1 ride limit.

I think that's a little unfair to Uncharted 4. It also has really strong writing/character work, amazing performance capture and animation, and on the whole is probably the best games have ever been at emulating blockbuster movies. And it has a Monkey Island reference. I only played it once at launch and I can still remember most of the main beats; it's just really well done.

Shenmues environments are more impressive entire towns are recreated with hundreds of unique NPCs each fully voiced with fully dynamic responses. A town where you can open every drawer and pick up every orange. YS wanted to create a world you could live in so immersive that you could literally SMELL it.

And that's all well and good when you're riding high with a blank cheque. In order to make these games into the future, lots of compromises are going to have to be made and it seems the most obvious ones would be in the form of the superfluous stuff.

Also it needs be said that the only drawers you can open and oranges you can pick up exist in the Hazuki residence; nowhere else in Shenmue is anywhere close to that level of detail. Which is fine, games used to do this stuff all the time (FF7 starts with Midgar only to make it a small dot on the map, but no other dot/town is anywhere near the size/density it offers).

Todays rotten youth would rather play a game where you can steal cars and kill police officers and hookers. I would rather pick up and smell an orange thank you very much.

This is not unique to todays youth and was very much true at the time. Also I think it's a little reductive to say that GTA is popular because you can kill police and hookers; the GTA games are also extremely well made (GTA4 in particular has a borderline Shenmue-ish obsession with detail).

A Shenmue game without an abundance of useless detail just wouldn’t be Shenmue.

I agree but I feel like we're just arguing over where the line is.

The environments would lose their character and impact without these wonderful details. Wasn’t it cool arriving in Niaowu and having all the town vendors bombarding you with their sales pitches? That’s worlds better than a meaningless action set pieces meant to appeal to “dude bro” gamers who spend all their time drinking Mountain Dew eating Doritos and playing Call of Duty.

I would give up 100% of Niaowu for a Yellowhead building. Also, no one is saying that Shenmue needs to be wall to wall action, certainly nothing in the ballpark of Call of Duty, GTA, or Uncharted. Rockstar also released RDR2 which is probably their slowest, most mundane, most superfluous detail obsessed game and it made over $1 billion. Because 1. RDR2 is the cowboy simulator and 2. is not boring, it's not ridiculous, it doesn't have stupid obvious design flaws etc. If Shenmue could be the martial arts simulator I don't see why it would continue to be such a failure.

I’ll tell you one thing, there’s NEVER gonna be a scene in Shenmue where we see Tentei hold court with the 4 Chi You Men bosses. There’s never gonna be a scene where someone sits Ryo’s wooden ass down and explains to him the precise meaning of the poem. There’s never gonna a be a scene where Lan Di and Niao Sun fight about who should lead the CYM. Shenmue will always be a detective story where Ryo is perpetually 1 step behind everything and everyone just barely gleaning enough information to get him to his next destination and maybe just MAYBE and encounter with Lan Di.

Remember you don’t “play” Shenmue, you LIVE Shenmue.

Yes it's true that Shenmue is told entirely from Ryo's perspective so we're very unlikely to get cutaways to the CYM (except for when it happens in Shenmue 3, but I digress), but that doesn't mean that people don't sit Ryo down and explain stuff to him. It happens all the time, and they're usually some of the most memorable parts of the game. Why we're able to go around Yokosuka asking random antique shops about the Phoenix mirror but not in the village where they were carved is a complete mystery to me. Also Suzuki said the meaning of the poem would be revealed in S3 (which makes sense since we were in the village where it originated).

You gotta admit that the training in S3 is superior. Very easy to grasp.

While I can definitely get on board with the idea of the training/leveling system I can't say I love the implementation. The only way to increase strength is to equip newly obtained moves and train them? It's like one step forward, one step back. I also think the stamina minigames are pretty half-baked, since it's such an integral part of the game it would be nice if leveling up stamina was more than time wasting busywork.

In S2 you were forced to “train” with that old senile bastard in the park. Jiamin is so physically unappealing he makes even Master Chen look fetching by comparison.

S3 having more opportunities for sparring is definitely an improvement.

Shenmue 1: 0%-10%

Shenmue 2: 10%-39.9%

Shenmue 3: 39.9%-40%

This seems right to me. But Suzuki said that S3 would cover the most story so far.

The bulk of the side character development could have happened there.

Are you talking about the broom girl etc?

Gotta say that the worst thing about Baisha being cut was the guestbook at the Niaowu hotel room. A backer signed that they were going off the Baisha! Talk about crushing disappointment.

Big oof.

 

[SMDzero]

Sorry for the late reply.

I think that's a little unfair to Uncharted 4. It also has really strong writing/character work, amazing performance capture and animation, and on the whole is probably the best games have ever been at emulating blockbuster movies. And it has a Monkey Island reference. I only played it once at launch and I can still remember most of the main beats; it's just really well done.

Yeah yeah Uncharted 4 was cool... but I only played through it once. Uncharted doesn't really have any depth.. it's like a rollercoaster: you experience it once enjoy the ride and then shelf it and forget about it. It's a shame that Naughy Dog spent the gross GDP of Niger spending billions of $$$ rendering each individual hair on Drake's nutsack- useless detail that could have been spent feeding the destitute children there. Were you actually counting the hairs on Drake's nutsack while you were swinging through the air at 60 mpH???? Of course not.

With Shenmue 3 you can spend hours just "living" in the richly realized world. You have only played S3 once but trust me on your second playthough you'll be amazed at all the fun you can have just hanging out in Niaowu.

Also Naughy Dog forced their employees to work crunch hours 23 hours per day. 80% of the team that worked on Uncharted 4 resigned after the game was done for their own mental health. YS would never abuse his employees this way. Besides Neil Druckman is so

Spoiler

woke

he would have made Niao Sun look like this.

And that's all well and good when you're riding high with a blank cheque. In order to make these games into the future, lots of compromises are going to have to be made and it seems the most obvious ones would be in the form of the superfluous stuff.

Without loads of $$$ Shenmue just wouldn't be Shenmue. Suzhou must be realized in full and the $$$ money must be spent- the starving children will understand if it's for Shenmue 4.

Also it needs be said that the only drawers you can open and oranges you can pick up exist in the Hazuki residence; nowhere else in Shenmue is anywhere close to that level of detail. Which is fine, games used to do this stuff all the time (FF7 starts with Midgar only to make it a small dot on the map, but no other dot/town is anywhere near the size/density it offers).

That level of detail is all over Shenmue 1- you can even pick up a pack of cigarettes in the new WH #8!

This is not unique to todays youth and was very much true at the time. Also I think it's a little reductive to say that GTA is popular because you can kill police and hookers; the GTA games are also extremely well made (GTA4 in particular has a borderline Shenmue-ish obsession with detail).

Today's youth is terrible- if it were up to me I'd lock them all up for their daily insolence. No way GTA 3 would have been so popular if you couldn't so depraved things... the shock factor was what sold the game just like fatalities in Mortal Combat. Take away the killing of police and hookers in GTA 3 and all you have left is a lego man running around a bland NYC knock-off with basic driving mechanics. If you could have killed hookers and cops in Shenmue you KNOW it would sell. Also I heard GTA 4 is hated even by fans of the series.

I would give up 100% of Niaowu for a Yellowhead building. Also, no one is saying that Shenmue needs to be wall to wall action, certainly nothing in the ballpark of Call of Duty, GTA, or Uncharted. Rockstar also released RDR2 which is probably their slowest, most mundane, most superfluous detail obsessed game and it made over $1 billion. Because 1. RDR2 is the cowboy simulator and 2. is not boring, it's not ridiculous, it doesn't have stupid obvious design flaws etc. If Shenmue could be the martial arts simulator I don't see why it would continue to be such a failure.

I would have given up Niaowu for Basiha. But at least with Bailu and Niawu all filled out nothing was skipped or got short changed. We can always go to Baisha later. Bring on Shenmue 4, 5, 6 and 7! And I've seen Red Dead 2- all you do its make campfires and eat beans. Occasionally you shoot a billy goat big deal!!

Yes it's true that Shenmue is told entirely from Ryo's perspective so we're very unlikely to get cutaways to the CYM (except for when it happens in Shenmue 3, but I digress), but that doesn't mean that people don't sit Ryo down and explain stuff to him. It happens all the time, and they're usually some of the most memorable parts of the game. Why we're able to go around Yokosuka asking random antique shops about the Phoenix mirror but not in the village where they were carved is a complete mystery to me. Also Suzuki said the meaning of the poem would be revealed in S3 (which makes sense since we were in the village where it originated).

We never got a cutaway in S3. Ryo could hear Niao Sun below him burning the place. Ok fine in Shenmue 1 you actually ask NPCs about the mirror but not in S3. That's because finding the mirror is the first real thing that happens in S1 so naturally Ryo asks people about it. By the time we get to S3, Ryo doesn't even care about the mirror per se (I just want to know why this mirror was worth killing my father over). Besides we learn in S3 that the mirrors are just pieces of junk that some hick in Bailu made a few dozen years ago. The whole point of Shenmue is that revenge is worthless just like those mirrors are worthless pieces of crap.

Also the poem is revealed. Ryo appeared from across the sea. He met Shenhua, their destinies aligned (Ryo revenge -Shenhua save father) and they go on an adventure which could destroy Ryo (he gets killed by lan Di). What more do you want spelled out?

While I can definitely get on board with the idea of the training/leveling system I can't say I love the implementation. The only way to increase strength is to equip newly obtained moves and train them? It's like one step forward, one step back. I also think the stamina minigames are pretty half-baked, since it's such an integral part of the game it would be nice if leveling up stamina was more than time wasting busywork.

In real life people train karate by doing a move over and over again. Karate practicing isn't fun it's tedious so too should training in Shenmue.

 

[SMDzero]

Sorry for the late reply.


Yeah yeah Uncharted 4 was cool... but I only played through it once. Uncharted doesn't really have any depth.. it's like a rollercoaster: you experience it once enjoy the ride and then shelf it and forget about it. It's a shame that Naughy Dog spent the gross GDP of Niger spending billions of $$$ rendering each individual hair on Drake's nutsack- useless detail that could have been spent feeding the destitute children there. Were you actually counting the hairs on Drake's nutsack while you were swinging through the air at 60 mpH???? Of course not.

With Shenmue 3 you can spend hours just "living" in the richly realized world. You have only played S3 once but trust me on your second playthough you'll be amazed at all the fun you can have just hanging out in Niaowu.

Also Naughy Dog forced their employees to work crunch hours 23 hours per day. 80% of the team that worked on Uncharted 4 resigned after the game was done for their own mental health. YS would never abuse his employees this way. Besides Neil Druckman is so

Spoiler

woke

he would have made Niao Sun look like this.
View attachment 19875



Without loads of $$$ Shenmue just wouldn't be Shenmue. Suzhou must be realized in full and the $$$ money must be spent- the starving children will understand if it's for Shenmue 4.

View attachment 19873


That level of detail is all over Shenmue 1- you can even pick up a pack of cigarettes in the new WH #8!

View attachment 19874


Today's youth is terrible- if it were up to me I'd lock them all up for their daily insolence. No way GTA 3 would have been so popular if you couldn't so depraved things... the shock factor was what sold the game just like fatalities in Mortal Combat. Take away the killing of police and hookers in GTA 3 and all you have left is a lego man running around a bland NYC knock-off with basic driving mechanics. If you could have killed hookers and cops in Shenmue you KNOW it would sell. Also I heard GTA 4 is hated even by fans of the series.


I would have given up Niaowu for Basiha. But at least with Bailu and Niawu all filled out nothing was skipped or got short changed. We can always go to Baisha later. Bring on Shenmue 4, 5, 6 and 7! And I've seen Red Dead 2- all you do its make campfires and eat beans. Occasionally you shoot a billy goat big deal!!

We never got a cutaway in S3. Ryo could hear Niao Sun below him burning the place. Ok fine in Shenmue 1 you actually ask NPCs about the mirror but not in S3. That's because finding the mirror is the first real thing that happens in S1 so naturally Ryo asks people about it. By the time we get to S3, Ryo doesn't even care about the mirror per se (I just want to know why this mirror was worth killing my father over). Besides we learn in S3 that the mirrors are just pieces of junk that some hick in Bailu made a few dozen years ago. The whole point of Shenmue is that revenge is worthless just like those mirrors are worthless pieces of crap.

Also the poem is revealed. Ryo appeared from across the sea. He met Shenhua, their destinies aligned (Ryo revenge -Shenhua save father) and they go on an adventure which could destroy Ryo (he gets killed by lan Di). What more do you want spelled out?




In real life people train karate by doing a move over and over again. Karate practicing isn't fun it's tedious so too should training in Shenmue.

I have officially won this argument.