IGN: Yu Suzuki Talks Shenmue 4, Air Twister, and 40 Years of Game Development

[thedemon1238]

I don't think it makes any sense to make Shenmue 4 as a 2D RPG or some other low budget product. Officially I mean.

The whole idea of the game is to immerse yourself in a 3D world, recreated in great detail. Telling the story at all costs is not the point of the game. Shenmue 3 is a true Shenmue game. If this is going to be the last game, I'd say it's a much better ending than some 2D rpg or visual novel. A 4th official game that isn't up to the Shenmue 3 standards will leave a very bad aftertaste for the fanbase.
If we're not going to get a real Shenmue game from Suzuki (even with slight compromises) it's possible a script/novel/manga will come out anyway. There are many talented fans in the community who can create Shenmue games with RPG maker or other engines. The few Shenmue fan games currently being made look more than impressive.

While Yu Suzuki is active in game development, let him try to make a real Shenmue game. When he retires, the search for alternative ways of telling the story will begin. Shenmue isn't just a story to tell.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I can see why he doesn’t like answering questions about Shenmue when he’s working on other things. I guess he gets more publicity, but at the cost of having all his words dissected. His frankness about Shenmue does suggest he’s possibly doing something with it, though… he usually just says nothing about the series when interviewed and in a press cycle for something.

 

[iknifaugood]

The whole idea of the game is to immerse yourself in a 3D world, recreated in great detail.

Shenmue came out at a time when this was a novelty, no game even attempted its level of detail. Now every major AAA game has infinitely more detail than Shenmue could ever hope to achieve in 3D.

A 4th official game that isn't up to the Shenmue 3 standards will leave a very bad aftertaste for the fanbase.

Shenmue 3 left a bad taste in for a sizeable chunk of fans. I get that people like it but it's inarguable at this point that its failure is the reason we don't have a Shenmue 4 so a change is needed.

 

[thedemon1238]

This is bang on. The design of Shenmue 1 necessitated side activities that essentially just "waste" the player's time (meaning they don't tie in to broader systems) which is basically just the arcade, training and I guess buying things. But this was from a time before smart phones. Zero people are going to be asked to wait for Charlie and meander around the game world in 2023; they're going to waste that time on their phone until the game lets them play again.

S2 added the wait feature but instead incorporated money into this equation (again, by justifying it through the story) so most of the side activities involve gambling of some sort.

All of this is to say that without NEEDING to wait in Shenmue 1 or NEEDING money in Shenmue 2, there is no reason to engage with all the side activities. And, since waiting has been removed, and I can only assume/hope that money gating is next on the chopping block, then it's worth considering what that design will look like on the other side.

There are many things you can do while you wait. You're missing the most important thing. TO WATCH! FREE means full reactive eyes entertainment" You can listen to music too! You can talk to people.... But the most important thing is to observe.

There are exactly 2 or 3 moments where you have to wait until the next day in the entire first game. Is this seriously a problem?

 

[Quiksylver]

I think for Shenmue to have any chance in being a semi successful franchise in the future it either needs a reboot from the beginning, or reboot with a prequel with Iwao and maybe Ryo as a child learning, then then next game will be a remake of the first. It needs to be introduced to a whole new generation of people again.

I have to say, at this moment in time, the idea of going back to walk around dobuita again (with modern visuals) is more appealing to me than getting a direct follow on from the Shenmue 3 we got - as much as I want to see what happens next.

If it had the proper funding and development I don't see why it can't be successful. Keep it tight and focussed on gameplay and progressive story and I think we'd be onto a winner.

 

[thedemon1238]

Shenmue 3 left a bad taste in for a sizeable chunk of fans. I get that people like it but it's inarguable at this point that its failure is the reason we don't have a Shenmue 4 so a change is needed.

It's my opinion, but I don't think these "fans" are real fans. :) For the fans, shenmue 3 is a success. (even more so considering the conditions in which it was created) The only thing we've heard about Shenmue 3's performance is that sales are fine, but it's not a hit. It's just that nowadays if you don't make a lot of money and you don't have a publisher to support you, it's quite difficult to do anything.

 

[mrazizpizza]

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just endlessly curious why people like Shenmue and what they think it even is because, unlike most game series, there really isn't a consensus about it.

I think in the end this is the most important part as there is a large difference in how different people view these games. There is a lot of people who view the series as action adventure focusing mainly on the story, while there is also a large amount of fans seemingly including Suzuki himself that think a large amount of what makes these games if not the number one thing is the life simulator aspects. Because of that divide there can never really be a great consensus about what the best course is for this series

I’m not going to go too deep into the game design again as it’s a bit off topic, what I will say is that all three games thus far are completely designed around some type of progression barrier. While a new game could due away with these I don’t know if that’s really necessary or good. I think these progression barriers really allow the player to sit with the concept of revenge and what they’re really after, is everything the player and by extension Ryo doing really justify what the ends will be. You say Shenmue 2’s money grinding is in service to the story but I’m not sure I really believe that. It seems more likely to me that Ryo losing his money at the beginning was more likely written in to facilitate the gameplay of making money rather than the other way around. Getting rid of these progression barriers would of course make it more approachable and would be better from a business perspective but I’d argue it would make the game a much less interesting artistic work.

But what was translated? What do you do in Shenmue in 3D that you can't do in 2D aside from the aesthetics?

I would argue a lot. Most importantly I can’t think of any 2D game where the town that you’re in plays as much of a character in of itself as it does in Shenmue. Creating a town that is living and breathing and being able to observe how it exists without the player is pretty core to the experience and is something I can’t imagine being as fleshed out in an adventure game or RPG.

I’d also point back to the original argument I made being more about what Suzuki wants to make. While I do personally think there is something to be lost in the transition to 2D. My larger point is from a design prospective there is plenty to be lost, arguably abandoning the entire FREE concept.

 

[iknifaugood]

But the most important thing is to observe.

Observe what?

There are exactly 2 or 3 moments where you have to wait until the next day in the entire first game. Is this seriously a problem?

Yes. The one unanimous criticism of Breath of the Wild is the fact that, when it rains in that game, you can no longer climb freely and just have to wait or do something else. Players hate that and S2 was right to add the option to skip time.

t's my opinion, but I don't think these "fans" are real fans. :)

This already small fanbase does not need to be made smaller.

The only thing we've heard about Shenmue 3's performance is that sales are fine, but it's not a hit.

We know that we don't have Shenmue 4 and it's not on the horizon, that's for sure.

It's just that nowadays if you don't make a lot of money and you don't have a publisher to support you, it's quite difficult to do anything.

It is indeed very difficult to get people to give you money when you keep losing it.

 

[thedemon1238]

I think for Shenmue to have any chance in being a semi successful franchise in the future it either needs a reboot from the beginning, or reboot with a prequel with Iwao and maybe Ryo as a child learning, then then next game will be a remake of the first. It needs to be introduced to a whole new generation of people again.

But if they start all over again, we won't be the target audience anymore. They're going to make the game for a totally different group of people, in a totally different way. There is no guarantee that we will like the final result. :) I really want the series to end the way it started. Ysnet can try to make it slightly more modern, but keeping the essence true to it's original vision.

Observe what?

I think you need to play Shenmue games more.

 

[iknifaugood]

There is a lot of people who view the series as action adventure focusing mainly on the story, while there is also a large amount of fans seemingly including Suzuki himself that think a large amount of what makes these games if not the number one thing is the life simulator aspects.

Shenmue is indeed made up of many contradictions but I would argue that it never goes far enough in any one direction. For instance, much has been made of Shenmue's "life simulator" aspects but is that really true of S1 and 2? There's a day/night cycle and Ryo has a curfew but that's about it. He never needs to eat, he doesn't maintain any kind of schedule, and the player isn't free to make any meaningful choices. Shenmue certainly simulates realistic environments but not really through the gameplay, certainly not compared to a true "life sim" game as it is understood today.

I think these progression barriers really allow the player to sit with the concept of revenge and what they’re really after, is everything the player and by extension Ryo doing really justify what the ends will be.

I totally agree but the quality of these barriers varies wildly. For instance, in S1 "wait for Charlie" means that everything just stops and the player needs to kill time until the story can progress. In S2 "Find Lishao Tao" leads to meeting Joy, Ren, Wong and the Heavens, learning about the four Wude etc. IMO Shenmue is at its best when the barriers themselves open up to interesting avenues.

You say Shenmue 2’s money grinding is in service to the story but I’m not sure I really believe that. It seems more likely to me that Ryo losing his money at the beginning was more likely written in to facilitate the gameplay of making money rather than the other way around.

I said that the story justifies it. I have no doubt that you are correct in saying that it was to facilitate the gameplay of making money but, as I mentioned with the save file continuing, I have doubts as to whether that was intended as a core part of the series or just something for that point in the story.

I would argue a lot. Most importantly I can’t think of any 2D game where the town that you’re in plays as much of a character in of itself as it does in Shenmue.

Midgar in FF7, the Spencer mansion and RPD of Resident Evil, the Caribbean of Monkey Island, LA 2017 of Blade Runner, New Orleans and Bavaria of Gabriel Knight etc. I actually think Shenmue adding some simulation to what is traditionally a very static genre would be more innovative that doing it in 3D since, even at the time, plenty of games were attempting the same sorts of things.

I’d also point back to the original argument I made being more about what Suzuki wants to make. While I do personally think there is something to be lost in the transition to 2D. My larger point is from a design prospective there is plenty to be lost, arguably abandoning the entire FREE concept.

At what point would Shenmue stop being FREE? What are the requirements? Not as any sort of gotcha, just genuinely curious.

 

[Quiksylver]

But if they start all over again, we won't be the target audience anymore. They're going to make the game for a totally different group of people, in a totally different way. There is no guarantee that we will like the final result. :)



I think you need to play Shenmue games more.

That's so true Demon. But did we all like the final result of Shenmue 3? I'm mixed on it. I think whatever comes next is going to be a mixed bag for all of us anyway.

I really have no idea any more. I'm 37 now and it would be a kick in the balls to have to start again, BUT at this point I would love for Shenmue to be successful whether I like what it became or not.

I think making it episodic could really work. Shorter, cheaper releases, every year or 18months for a new chapter but constantly progressing using the same engine throughout. Some episodes could be dedicated to going back so many years and filling in the gaps.

I'm on a weird off topic tangent now and rambling cause my brain is on one. Oh Shenmue...

 

[thedemon1238]

But did we all like the final result of Shenmue 3? I'm mixed on it. I think whatever comes next is going to be a mixed bag for all of us anyway.

I guess not everyone liked the third game as much as I did... But still, it's kind of a fresh start, a prologue if you want. I really believe that if there is a Shenmue 4, people who like to play it as an story driven Action Adventure will be happy as well.

If nothing can be done and a new reboot is the only way, I guess I will play it, but... I really want something new. Even small chapter/episode for the start. :)

 

[spud1897]

This is the biggest sticking point. Why would anyone give Suzuki a substantial budget for more Shenmue at this point? What would be the benefit to Shenmue 0 over a new IP?

I guess because Shenmue has a small but established fanbase that it might be 'less' risky but then history isn't favourable despite some small successes previously.

A new IP doesn't have the baggage but also not the fanbase. That could work on favour though too.

 

[Suzaku]

Shenmue prequel would be the perfect idea to re-launch the series.
It worked very well for Yakuza, that previously was in even a worst state than Shenmue in the west, and look now...

Shenmue 0 could do a real magic and attract more people meanwhile for Shenmue 4 and 5.

 

[thedemon1238]

At what point would Shenmue stop being FREE? What are the requirements? Not as any sort of gotcha, just genuinely curious.

Go to the Niawo's rice fields near the temple, walk around and try to look at the location from different angles. I'm not sure how others understand FREE, but to me it's something that gives the gamer enjoyment just by the sight.

Use your eyes to see the game as more than just a game. In all three Shenmue games, there are locations that only allow you to enjoy the view. They have nothing to do with gameplay I think. For example, in Shenmue 1, there's an option to go up to the second floor of some small apartment buildings. Just to see the street from above and the roofs of the houses. There are similar things in Shenmue 2.

 

[Suzaku]

Go to the Niawo's rice fields near the temple, walk around and try to look at the location from different angles. I'm not sure how others understand FREE, but to me it's something that gives the gamer enjoyment just by the sight.

Use your eyes to see the game as more than just a game. In all three Shenmue games, there are locations that only allow you to enjoy the view. They have nothing to do with gameplay I think. For example, in Shenmue 1, there's an option to go up to the second floor of some small apartment buildings. Just to see the street from above and the roofs of the houses. There are similar things in Shenmue 2.

That's one of the biggest differences between Shenmue and every other game.
In Shenmue there must not be a gameplay reason, the game's objective is to immerse the player into the world, so if you want to go to the balcony on the second floor of an apartment, just to enjoy the view, YOU CAN DO IT.

I rememver I tried the same thing in Yakuza 0 with a similar building in Kamurocho, and it was impossible to go up the ladder to reach the second floor, there was the usual videogame's invisible walls. That alone already break the illusion of being in a world, and make you remember that you're simply playing with a game/toy in a limited world.

 

[mrazizpizza]

@iknifaugood While Shenmue never went fully into the life sim aspects as games that are truly in that genre, the game absolutely expects you to invest into them through a playthrough. Day and night cycle, unique npc’s, training, side actives like feeding the cat, all of these things are very significant life sim aspects and the game ensures that the player interacts with them to some degree through the waiting times/money barriers. Sure, you could ignore all of those things and just play the game through the main story however you’d be left with an extremely frustrating experience that fights back at you at ever turn.

I said that the story justifies it. I have no doubt that you are correct in saying that it was to facilitate the gameplay of making money but, as I mentioned with the save file continuing, I have doubts as to whether that was intended as a core part of the series or just something for that point in the story.

Saying the story justifies it is a particularly arbitrary point to draw a line on. If someone thinks the story doesn’t justify it for meeting Ren but does for learning the body check in 3, there’s no objective way to quantify that. For your losing money at the beginning of 2, In my opinion if I thought that money grinding was a bad thing then I personally wouldn’t think the story itself really justifies it. However I think the money gathering is overall important for the game so the decision makes sense to lose it.

Midgar in FF7, the Spencer mansion and RPD of Resident Evil, the Caribbean of Monkey Island, LA 2017 of Blade Runner, New Orleans and Bavaria of Gabriel Knight etc. I actually think Shenmue adding some simulation to what is traditionally a very static genre would be more innovative that doing it in 3D since, even at the time, plenty of games were attempting the same sorts of things.

it’d be silly of me to really argue about a lot of these as I really haven’t played all of them. However of the ones I have played at least I can say that I don’t believe they really have the same FREE type design at all from what Shenmue does. For one example Midgar from FF7 doesn’t feel like it has any purpose outside of the main story. The layout often time doesn’t make a lot of sense and npc’s are almost all exclusively flavor text. It feels like a straight extension of what old RPG towns where instead of a living world. I’d argue the biggest thing Shenmue has that none of the other games I’ve played have is you can feel Ryo is not an important part of Yokosuka, when Cloud leaves Midgar it doesn’t feel like Midgar has any ability to sustain itself. I understand this in of itself is a rather arbitrary point but it’s one I believe most Shenmue fans would understand and agree with.

At what point would Shenmue stop being FREE? What are the requirements? Not as any sort of gotcha, just genuinely curious.

As Shenmue is the only FREE game it’s obviously going to take a bit of interpretation of what it means but I think my last point is my best attempt to explain what I think it does. If the world feels real, if you can observe your surroundings and see the world exists independent of you. I’d say that’s a successful example of what FREE means.

 

[iknifaugood]

I guess because Shenmue has a small but established fanbase that it might be 'less' risky but then history isn't favourable despite some small successes previously.

A new IP doesn't have the baggage but also not the fanbase. That could work on favour though too.

The issue is that any new Shenmue game is going to need to be pretty radically different from Shenmue 3 in order to court a new audience, especially if it's going to have a budget in the tens of millions. This means that it will reflect even more negatively on S1-3 in the same way that people compare them to Yakuza. Even if this hypothetical game is a hit, this does not make Shenmue 4 more likely, it makes a sequel to Shenmue 0 more likely since, presumable, the reasons that S0 are successful are going to be in the ways it's different from S1-3, not the same.

Go to the Niawo's rice fields near the temple, walk around and try to look at the location from different angles. I'm not sure how others understand FREE, but to me it's something that gives the gamer enjoyment just by the sight.

That's one of the biggest differences between Shenmue and every other game.
In Shenmue there must not be a gameplay reason, the game's objective is to immerse the player into the world, so if you want to go to the balcony on the second floor of an apartment, just to enjoy the view, YOU CAN DO IT.

1. Literally every open world game lets you do this in one way or another, just to a matter of degree. For every building you can explore in Shenmue, there are 10 that you can't even enter. 90% of GTA5's map will remain unexplored if you just follow the story.

2. Shenmue 3 doesn't even let Ryo explore all of Bailu Village in the beginning, and Niaowu has all kinds of arbitrary roadblocks and shortcuts to gate progression. Even Shenmue 1 doesn't allow Ryo to go to the harbor until the story dictates...

 

[iknifaugood]

While Shenmue never went fully into the life sim aspects as games that are truly in that genre, the game absolutely expects you to invest into them through a playthrough. Day and night cycle, unique npc’s, training, side actives like feeding the cat, all of these things are very significant life sim aspects and the game ensures that the player interacts with them to some degree through the waiting times/money barriers.

Invest in what? Apart from feeding the cat, everything you listed is just a simulation, not something interactive. You can't even choose what to ask NPCs and most of them just tell you they can't help you. I have no doubt that if Shenmue were designed with a huge budget in 2023, these systems would be fundamentally different.

Saying the story justifies it is a particularly arbitrary point to draw a line on. If someone thinks the story doesn’t justify it for meeting Ren but does for learning the body check in 3, there’s no objective way to quantify that.

You're free to argue why the body check is better justified :). In all seriousness, it's much easier to say that Ryo has lost his money and now needs to earn more of it than it does to say that he needs more "kung fu" or something nebulous like that since money is quantifiable. Furthermore, it services the story by characterizing Hong Kong as a dangerous place compared to the relative safety of Yokosuka. S3 is basically content to say "you need a special move to beat this opponent" and leave it at that. Twice.

I’d argue the biggest thing Shenmue has that none of the other games I’ve played have is you can feel Ryo is not an important part of Yokosuka, when Cloud leaves Midgar it doesn’t feel like Midgar has any ability to sustain itself. I understand this in of itself is a rather arbitrary point but it’s one I believe most Shenmue fans would understand and agree with.

I didn't mean to say that these offer the same simulation as Shenmue, which is why I think it would be cool (and cheaper!) if Shenmue added simulation to the 2D approach, rather that these were examples of locations that feel like "characters" in the same way that Yokosuka or Hong Kong do in the Shenmue games. The world existing outside the player is something that games like GTA5 and especially RDR2 have excelled at and require massive sums of money to implement properly in huge 3D environments.

 

[Suzaku]

1. Literally every open world game lets you do this in one way or another, just to a matter of degree. For every building you can explore in Shenmue, there are 10 that you can't even enter. 90% of GTA5's map will remain unexplored if you just follow the story.

2. Shenmue 3 doesn't even let Ryo explore all of Bailu Village in the beginning, and Niaowu has all kinds of arbitrary roadblocks and shortcuts to gate progression. Even Shenmue 1 doesn't allow Ryo to go to the harbor until the story dictates...

1-GTA, spiderman etc. are a different kind of open world.
For example in GTA4 you had the entire new york map, and you could enter in less than 10 buildings for the entire game, and all were tied to the story, with only the side activity building being the bowling iirc.

They are just huge barren maps with nothing inside.

In Shenmue 2 you have like 1000 rooms you can enter freely, all crafted individually.
What's the most immersive and believable experience between the two in your opinion?



2-That's not an issue, any RPG opens gradually in areas you can explore, features, functionalities etc. as story progresses.

Also Shenmue is a game that follow a set of precise rules. In Shenmue you can't take the forklift in Dobuita to kill some people, to trigger the police, making things explodes randomly etc., Forklift will be used only for work and for the illegal races, that's the rule set by the shenmue world.


In GTA you just take a fighter jet and crash it around the city.
If you encounter some road block, a closed gate etc., you'll just drop your character from a higher place in some irrealistic ways using the character ragdoll physics, to reach places that are not meant to be reached.
It invites you to break the rules, It's just a children sandbox, a toy, a different kind of experience.