IGN: Yu Suzuki Talks Shenmue 4, Air Twister, and 40 Years of Game Development

[Suzaku]

While I agree that Shenmue 2 errs closer to the "small, dense" world design that I tend to favor; we have to include S3 in this mix and I found Niaowu to be one of the most pointlessly huge and empty "open" worlds I've ever played. It again comes down to what people want out of Shenmue--some people prioritize big 3D spaces with lots of buildings and NPCs, which is not something I expected from the series as Ryo heads into rural China to train in martial arts.

Even for Shenmue 3 we are still in the "small but dense" world.
For Bailu in particular it's even too dense sometimes, but for the size I think that was perfect since it contains both the village and the natural surroundings.
You can't give the sense of scale of the guilin nature with just the village plaza for example.

Niaowu was a more complex matter, as it should've been smaller and less important, with the third location Baisha being the main focus of the game.
Unfortunately things changed and we got one big Niaowu instead of a smaller Niaowu + Baisha.

Also a sort of city is mandatory in any modern game, modern audience wants that kind of experience.

He has a reason when he's looking for sailors.

Sure, but the game give you a progression for this, "ask your neighborhood first" then "go to the harbor".

Areas aren't restricted, Ryo just says he won't go to certain places which is at odds with his objective which is that Shenhua's father has been kidnapped and thugs have taken over the village. He should be scouring the entire place!

That's also true, but personally more than this, I found more strange the part where Ryo trains with calm wasting days while the thugs rules the place for days, and nobody cares.
That should've been better.

This is true but most games (including Shenmue 2) are a lot better about hiding it.


What do you mean by this? It's tied to story progression in the sense that you can't go to the harbor before the story allows you to. Similarly, getting the forklift job is also tied to story progression.

I meant that IF the harbor area was available only during story progressions, and totally blocked during free exploration, then your point would have been valid since this is an open world game.

 

[japalp]

I never understood how Yu has maintained that the Shenmue story can be wrapped up in 4 or 5 games, yet when asked about how much of the story Shenmue 1-3 represents, he has said 40%. How would he finish the final 60% of the story in just one game? Even two sounds like a stretch

I think most of the first 3 games have been just setting the stage. That is why he says only 40% is done. Likely, what is coming soon will answer most of the questions we have. I don’t think it will be difficult to tell much more of the story in the next game. What doing this in one more game will do is eliminate the chance to really flesh out the stories of individual characters we have met. This is the shame, but that can be rectified by releasing the “full” story in some other format.

 

[iknifaugood]

I never understood how Yu has maintained that the Shenmue story can be wrapped up in 4 or 5 games, yet when asked about how much of the story Shenmue 1-3 represents, he has said 40%. How would he finish the final 60% of the story in just one game? Even two sounds like a stretch

It really seems like he thought S3 was going to be a big hit and then get the chance to make bigger budget versions of S4 and S5 (at least initially). He also intended for S3 to include Baisha and that S3 originally had a different ending so we have no idea how that impacted the story. Who knows?

(EDIT) Though I can't imagine how different it could possibly have been considering what happens.

 

[Seaman]

@iknifaugood @Suzaku concerning the harbor issue you both seem to forget that Ryo, as much as we like him, isn't lets say... A-grade school student. He seems to be secluded into martial arts training in Yamanose and the harbor district is way too far of his confort zone. Remember that if you ask about its location to Haru Hirata (japanese dub) she sounds baffled by the questions she is listening. It may be my personal perception but she seems to leave quite long silences after Ryo's questions and then answers like "that's the harbor, son". Lets not forget the "where can I get the bus?" and "... there's a bus stop just around this corner...".

 

[punkmanced]

@Reprise
I could see Shenmue’s story concluding over the course of two additional games. As Japalp stated, the first 3 games could be seen as setting the stage. The latter half of Shenmue 4 could be where the intensity rises to a crescendo, leading to Ryo’s journey concluding in Shenmue 5.

(I would hope for the final part of Shenmue 5 to be dedicated to Ryo’s return to Yokosuka, exploring those streets one final time, but with newfound perspective.)

 

[Suzaku]

@iknifaugood @Suzaku concerning the harbor issue you both seem to forget that Ryo, as much as we like him, isn't lets say... A-grade school student. He seems to be secluded into martial arts training in Yamanose and the harbor district is way too far of his confort zone. Remember that if you ask about its location to Haru Hirata (japanese dub) she sounds baffled by the questions she is listening. It may be my personal perception but she seems to leave quite long silences after Ryo's questions and then answers like "that's the harbor, son". Lets not forget the "where can I get the bus?" and "... there's a bus stop just around this corner...".

Yeah it's the sort of replies to both Ryo and the player like "Are you really asking obvious silly questions? Where do you live?".
I forgot that lol

 

[ahmed_alency7]

I never understood how Yu has maintained that the Shenmue story can be wrapped up in 4 or 5 games, yet when asked about how much of the story Shenmue 1-3 represents, he has said 40%. How would he finish the final 60% of the story in just one game? Even two sounds like a stretch

I think shenmue 1-3 were setting up the stage especially 3 and next games would be more story heavy instead of playing day-to-day without much story and I expect the next games (4&5) to be longer especially nowadays games can stretch longer

 

[Hermit]

Not going to lie, if I hear any official indication that they're working on a Prequel/Remake instead of Shenmue IV I will be pretty irate! We all just want the story to proceed and be done with - and well executed of course! So any diversions from that path will push my patience, I can handle Air Twister but anything more than that will be agony.

As for talk about making the past 3 games present for newcomers... We already have the Anime which has re-covered the territory and despite my opinion of the HD Port, the games are at least accessible on modern systems - Often on sale too! So I don't think the next Shenmue title needs to recall old material, if anything I feel quite the opposite. We all have conflicting opinions on Shenmue 3, I enjoyed the game for the most part but just wanted more story progression. So the prospect of a Shenmue IV needs to take the bull by the horns and run riot! Jump straight into a new location and get right into the story. If we ever get a Shenmue IV and I feel the same lack of plot progression I felt from playing Shenmue 3 I will be pretty disappointed.

I understand where you're coming from, but it may be the case that this is only way Shenmue can work going forward. Shenmue 4 is a tougher ask than Shenmue 3, I highly doubt crowdfunding it will work a second time. Shenmue 3's Kickstarter didn't even have throw moves, so think what they wouldn't be able to implement with Shenmue 4. It also has become clear that nobody wants to touch Shenmue in it's current state, they obviously see no profit in it. The only people that will pick up Shenmue 4 are the fans, but we are very niche, we're not enough for a company to take a risk on.

We all want an ending to the story, but playing Shenmue 3 multiple times opened my eyes to something. I can't be satisfied with the story continuing in this state. I like Shenmue 3, but it's not good enough to build the continuation of the story on, and I just feel like another budget Shenmue title will dilute it even further. After so long, I don't want to come away with a "is that it?" feeling. I would rather we keep doing what we are currently doing, dreaming and using our imagination to come up with wild theories, at least that is fun, I don't want to come away from the series feeling empty.

Shenmue has a place in this world, especially in a world where cinematic single player games are so hot. I would prefer a Shenmue 4 that can do the story justice over a reboot, but I just don't see that as a realistic possibility. Shenmue needs a reboot, and who knows, maybe Shenmue is part of Sega's plans to bring back old ip's. Maybe Shenmue is one of those 'Super Games' they keep talking about.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

I understand where you're coming from, but it may be the case that this is only way Shenmue can work going forward. Shenmue 4 is a tougher ask than Shenmue 3, I highly doubt crowdfunding it will work a second time. Shenmue 3's Kickstarter didn't even have throw moves, so think what they wouldn't be able to implement with Shenmue 4. It also has become clear that nobody wants to touch Shenmue in it's current state, they obviously see no profit in it. The only people that will pick up Shenmue 4 are the fans, but we are very niche, we're not enough for a company to take a risk on.

We all want an ending to the story, but playing Shenmue 3 multiple times opened my eyes to something. I can't be satisfied with the story continuing in this state. I like Shenmue 3, but it's not good enough to build the continuation of the story on, and I just feel like another budget Shenmue title will dilute it even further. After so long, I don't want to come away with a "is that it?" feeling. I would rather we keep doing what we are currently doing, dreaming and using our imagination to come up with wild theories, at least that is fun, I don't want to come away from the series feeling empty.

Shenmue has a place in this world, especially in a world where cinematic single player games are so hot. I would prefer a Shenmue 4 that can do the story justice over a reboot, but I just don't see that as a realistic possibility. Shenmue needs a reboot, and who knows, maybe Shenmue is part of Sega's plans to bring back old ip's. Maybe Shenmue is one of those 'Super Games' they keep talking about.

I can only dream it’s one of those super games god i wish, i hope

 

[Sonoshee]

The only franchises SEGA would blow $800 million on is either Sonic or Yakuza. These "super games" are either related to those, or they are spending nearly a billion to chase trends again

 

[ahmed_alency7]

The only franchises SEGA would blow $800 million on is either Sonic or Yakuza. These "super games" are either related to those, or they are spending nearly a billion to chase trends again

Lmao yeah

 

[Reprise]

It'll probably be some garbage free to play Fortnite clone with NFTs you have to buy to obtain new cosmetics and playable characters from Sega's history, and then it will bomb hard.

I hope you are all ready to see Shenhua and Ryo wielding a gun, taking on Beats from JSR, Sonic, Axel from Streets of Rage and Alex Kidd in a "wacky" new "fun" experience from Sega.

 

[Suzaku]

Yeah, super games are probably all garbage like fortnite etc. hyenas was the same, a soulless clone of various online games, just to try to chase trends and hit the jackpot.

The perfect recipe for ruin.

 

[Valascaziel]

I'd hope they would be smarter in their choice of reviving IPs(Shenmue included)--so many games with potential and some have already been successful like Streets of Rage IV.

GaaS is a fool's errand and currently a reason games are struggling and backlash is happening.

Suicide Squad reception was so overwhelmingly negative they delayed it to February(and it's probably not gonna meet that). Modern Warfare 3 is a glorified DLC for $70 and people have noticed.

Nobody wants to pay $70+ for a game and then more money for a complete experience or be haggled and bombarded with a cash shop. Worse--no one wants to pay that kind of money and then lose automatically because someone spent $250 total to pay 2 win.

It's time for a change but gamers have to vote with their wallets. Go for the games that don't do that--Baldurs Gate, RoboCop, Alan Wake II, God of War Ragnarok, Horizon, etc.

All COMPLETE games that don't try and squeeze you at every turn when you've already generously given full price to play.

 

[iknifaugood]

Even for Shenmue 3 we are still in the "small but dense" world.
For Bailu in particular it's even too dense sometimes, but for the size I think that was perfect since it contains both the village and the natural surroundings.
You can't give the sense of scale of the guilin nature with just the village plaza for example.

Niaowu was a more complex matter, as it should've been smaller and less important, with the third location Baisha being the main focus of the game.
Unfortunately things changed and we got one big Niaowu instead of a smaller Niaowu + Baisha.

Bailu is definitely closer to this than Niaowu. There just isn't much of interest in Niaowu relative to its size. Games like GTA need massive open worlds because it's like 50% a driving game, Shenmue should be much closer to how games like Deus Ex are designed.

Also a sort of city is mandatory in any modern game, modern audience wants that kind of experience.

This may be at odds with where the story is headed as Ryo ventures deep into rural China...

Sure, but the game give you a progression for this, "ask your neighborhood first" then "go to the harbor".

Which only kind of works for a first-time playthrough. Once you know what to do, it's very silly for Ryo to not at least check the harbor. Furthermore, I don't even see how letting Ryo get on a bus and check the harbor at the beginning of the game would be such a bad thing; why not let the player explore there?

That's also true, but personally more than this, I found more strange the part where Ryo trains with calm wasting days while the thugs rules the place for days, and nobody cares.
That should've been better.

Totally agreed.

I meant that IF the harbor area was available only during story progressions, and totally blocked during free exploration, then your point would have been valid since this is an open world game.

As it stands, it's a weird mix of both. I have no doubt that if the game were designed today without loading restrictions this would be changed.

 

[iknifaugood]

I understand where you're coming from, but it may be the case that this is only way Shenmue can work going forward. Shenmue 4 is a tougher ask than Shenmue 3, I highly doubt crowdfunding it will work a second time. Shenmue 3's Kickstarter didn't even have throw moves, so think what they wouldn't be able to implement with Shenmue 4. It also has become clear that nobody wants to touch Shenmue in it's current state, they obviously see no profit in it. The only people that will pick up Shenmue 4 are the fans, but we are very niche, we're not enough for a company to take a risk on.

We all want an ending to the story, but playing Shenmue 3 multiple times opened my eyes to something. I can't be satisfied with the story continuing in this state. I like Shenmue 3, but it's not good enough to build the continuation of the story on, and I just feel like another budget Shenmue title will dilute it even further. After so long, I don't want to come away with a "is that it?" feeling. I would rather we keep doing what we are currently doing, dreaming and using our imagination to come up with wild theories, at least that is fun, I don't want to come away from the series feeling empty.

Shenmue has a place in this world, especially in a world where cinematic single player games are so hot. I would prefer a Shenmue 4 that can do the story justice over a reboot, but I just don't see that as a realistic possibility. Shenmue needs a reboot, and who knows, maybe Shenmue is part of Sega's plans to bring back old ip's. Maybe Shenmue is one of those 'Super Games' they keep talking about.

This is something that fans of the series are going to have to come to terms with: if we are ever going to get another Shenmue game, it's going to be different. IMO S3 already changed a lot from the original games and "felt" very different to me, but even I can admit that it was at least trying to emulate the vibe of 1 and 2. Whether in the form of a lower-budget "indie" game, an ultra-budget AAA release, or even if he just tries to make S4 the way he made S3, it will be fundamentally different from what came before. It has to be. So the issue becomes what changes fans of the series will accept and if there are even enough of us for that to matter. God of War, for instance, remade itself in a fundamentally different (but related) way and reached a MUCH wider audience because of it. Ignoring what fans of that series wanted was the smartest thing they could have done because the series went from selling 4-5M on PS2 and PS3 to over 20M on PS4.

 

[thedemon1238]

iknigaugood you don't understand. We are all FOR Shenmue getting a change or being different. As long as these changes are for the better. The question is which change is for the better and which is not. :) No game that has given up on the fanbase has lasted long. Look at what happened to Final Fantasy. They clearly don't know what to do with the franchise anymore.

Turning Shenmue into a copycat of other successful games is not a solution. Turning Shenmue into Yakuza is a terrible thing. Turning Shenmue into a generic open world game is blasphemy.

More work should be done on the marketing side, more ways should be found to optimize game development with modern tools. Provocative and interesting ways must be found to explain the masses how to play the game - better tutorials, official videos in the youtube, etc.

For starters, the best thing that can happen to the game is to find a publisher that understands what kind of product they have in front of them. To find a way to promote it, not to release it unfinished... This is a challenge that not everyone is ready to accept.

 

[Dietsoap]

I hope you are all ready to see Shenhua and Ryo wielding a gun

I've been ready since browsing the Shenmue 2 page of cheatplanet.

 

[iknifaugood]

We are all FOR Shenmue getting a change or being different. As long as these changes are for the better. The question is which change is for the better and which is not.

If you asked God of War fans if those changes were for the better, they would have said no and they would have been wrong. Shenmue fans don't even agree on what the series is/should be about.

Look at what happened to Final Fantasy. They clearly don't know what to do with the franchise anymore.

What do you mean by this? FF15 sold 10M, 7 Remake sold 7M so far, and 16 is at 3M but obviously that's throttled a bit by being PS5 exclusive. Apart from the online games, the Final Fantasy series hasn't sold under 5M units since FF6.

Turning Shenmue into a copycat of other successful games is not a solution. Turning Shenmue into Yakuza is a terrible thing. Turning Shenmue into a generic open world game is blasphemy.

Shenmue should absolutely take inspiration from other successful games including Yakuza and other open world games. Many of the ways that S3 departs from established norms contribute to how alienating it is for newcomers to play.

For starters, the best thing that can happen to the game is to find a publisher that understands what kind of product they have in front of them. To find a way to promote it, not to release it unfinished... This is a challenge that not everyone is ready to accept.

That obviously would have happened by now if S3 proved to be a winning formula. Games have to prove that they have an audience, the audience isn't created by the publisher. Think about what Shenmue is and how you would want to see it advertised, and then describe what exactly you do during a playthrough of S3 and you will see the incongruencies.

 

[thedemon1238]

Shenmue is a game that is very difficult for the masses/new players to understand. I think it would be nice to have a separate in-game menu full of movies to show the player how to play the game.How to create tasks in his/her head, at the beginning of each day... To make something like habits, to learn to play without an arrow to show him where to go. To experience the feeling that he is free to set his own tasks.

Something like that is the Passport disk in the first game. For example, first you start with work, then training, then some fun/gambling, then you collect herbs/seach chobochans, do a side quest and only then go to the main quest... if you have time. If you don't have time, there's always a next day. When these things are officially in the game, these players will know that they are not playing the game right way.