Important Audio Design Detail For Shenmue 3

Van Joel Sandwich

Van Joel Sandwich

Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Location
Porto; Portugal
Fellow Shenmue addicts.
I love both Shenmues. But the first one is my preferred, for many reasons that many of us know, which I'm not describing here.

One of the differences that really set Shenmue 1 and 2 appart, and with a very signifficant effect for me, is the Free Quest Sound Design.
In Shenmue1, the music sets the tone for the story. It changes depending on which moment Ryo is in the story.
It makes the player feel Ryo's emotions and the story on a deeper level. And connects the whole game better to the main narrative.
For example:
~When you leave the house and you have to search for clues, the music is mysterious and athmospheric.
~When you leave ryo's house and there is a somewhat darker sound in the air, you know there is something going down.
~When Chai eats Ryo's Hong Kong ticket, the music becomes sad and you walk arround feeling the sadness until the next moment arrives.
~When there is nothing particulary important going on, the music becomes more melancholic and soft.
~After a fight, or something important, the music changes to an apropriate one.

It connects everything better in my opinion and makes the main story feel more cohesive and connected.

In Shenmue 2 every street and zone has its own music, wich may entice a litle bit more variety to each place, but it disconnects the gameplay from the story and from what motivates Ryo in the moment, I believe.

I know its a detail. But in my view it's an important detail.

What you guys think about this aspect?
How you guys think Is going to be Shenmue 3 in this aspect?!
I love both games please note that! hahaha

I hope they preffer the design of the first game.

Cheers :)
 
I never really thought about the lack of FREE music in Shenmue 2, just because the overall quality of all the music in both games is mind blowing really, and to hear that 80% or whatever of the music created wasn't even used bodes well for Shenmue 3!

I do agree that the mood based FREE music was really great for the first game, that the sequel lacked, but I also enjoyed how the zone music changed based on day and night, night usually being a more mellow version of the day time piece. Because of that, it's a touch one to pick if I had to, but i'll probably agree with you and say that I would prefer the FREE style of music. That style worked well for Shenmue 1 because Ryo spent most of the time in the same locations, whereas in Shenmue 2 Aberdeen is significantly different from Wan Chai, Kowloon, and especially Guilin, so I think that was a good design choice to have a wide variety of memorable zone music, because of the sheer scope and size of those areas. Shenmue 3 may be similar to 1 in size and design, although having said that, with Bailu Village, Choubu and Baisha, Ryo travelling from one unique location to the next might mean Shenmue 2's design would work best again.
 
Yes skilljim. I agree that both methods have their own advantages :)

But still, I believe that the way they made shenmue1 resulted in a more immersive game overall.

Of course Shenmue2 has amazing musics!! I love them! It just doesn't connect much to the story context like in shenmue1. :)
It's just an observation, I'm not saying shenmue 2 is bad in any way. It's my 2nd favourite game after shenmue1.

It would be cool to see the method of the first game being used again in shenmue 3 .
 
Both games utilise both approaches, but to different degrees. I think I'd prefer a compromise of the two.

The first game always uses story-based music when outside and not at home, but there are also times in Shenmue II when it uses story-based music; for example, when your bag is stolen, and the final time you're looking for Ren (and chasing him) in Wan Chai, the music changes to reflect that.

The area-based music is also used by both games; in the first game it's limited to inside locations and the Hazuki Residence, whereas in Shenmue II outside locations also have their own area-based music (and most have a second night-time track too).

I often take my time playing through the game, sometimes deliberately missing story events; with the story-based music, this can mean the same track is playing for long periods of time. However, when I am actually doing the story, the area-based music can be out of place (the jaunty Worker's Pier music when you're looking for the head of a gang member kinda destroys the tension that should be there).

What would be nice for me is having story-based music when outside in most cases, but having area-based music when there's no need for story-based music.

In the first game, it might help to have area-based music after visiting the tattoo parlour, or after buying a HK ticket, or after Goro tells you he'll help you get a job. If you could actually check in with everyone on your final day (instead of getting like ten seconds) this would be a good time for area-based music too. Similarly in Shenmue II, looking for martial artists, both times you do Chawan signs, and the free day you get at the end of Discs 2 and 3 are great times for area-based music, but other parts of the game need story-based music, where it's mostly lacking in the game.
 
Yeah, but shenmue 1 is using story bases music much of the time.
Yes, that is true, there are instances where the music plays depending on the story in shenmue 2 also.
Not often tho. Those are rare cases in shenmue2.

A good balance between the two options would be a good thing.
Good point there. It would be good to have two or three music options for those instances where the player takes a lot of time to progress.
I still prefer the shenmue1 approach.
Whe the music follows the storyline in shenmue 2 it becomes much better and convincing I believe.
 
I also noticed this a long time ago. I think I even posted about it way back when on the old forums. And I agree that I prefer the Shenmue I approach, where the music changes based on what's currently happening in the story. Although, the approach used in Shenmue II seems to work really well for that game and fit its different tone (that may just be because I'm used to it though).

Looking back on it now, I'm not sure if it was 100% a design choice in Shenmue I or something that was deemed necessary due to the limitations of that game. After all, Shenmue I was a pretty small game world. There were only so many locations and you would constantly be hearing the same few pieces of music over and over again if it had used the Shenmue II approach. Now, whether it was a design choice that was always intended or not, I feel that it ended up working greatly in favor of the game.

If I had to make a guess, I would say that Shenmue III will use something closer to Shenmue II than Shenmue I. I'm not sure if they can make the Shenmue I approach to background music work so perfectly again. I believe that Shenmue I is a truly one-of-a-kind game the likes of which will never be replicated, even by the Shenmue series itself. There are many aspects that make the first Shenmue game unique and give it a very special atmosphere.

I think a lot of this stems from the fact that it takes place in Ryo's hometown. It's such a small world by today's gaming standards, but it is so detailed. Ryo knows most of the people in town personally and you get to know them too. They all have extremely detailed backstories and their own unique schedules each day. You can search through every nook and cranny of your house, even when it serves no practical purpose. You can't skip time and the area jump feature is turned off by default (at least in the original DC version). You really feel as if you are Ryo and you're living through his life.

As I said, I feel that this is all somehow connected to the amazing background music implementation in the game. It just furthers the incredibly immersive atmosphere and makes you feel even more like you are Ryo, since the free quest music at any given time reflects Ryo's current emotions.

Really, the entire "FREE" genre that Shenmue I coined is only actually seen in that game. Shenmue II doesn't have some of the features that were advertised as part of Full Reactive Eyes Entertainment, or at least has them toned down greatly. While Shenmue II still does somewhat make me feel as if I'm living through Ryo's life, I think that there is also a bit of a "from the outside looking in" vibe that didn't exist in Shenmue I.

When all is said and done, I think the original Shenmue was just so meticulously designed and everything came together in a perfect storm to create a video game experience unlike any other in existence. I believe that the background music design is part of that. That's why I don't think that Shenmue III will use the same approach to background music, or at least not to the same degree. Of course, nobody knows for sure and either way I'm confident that the game will have an incredible soundtrack!
 
B-Man said:
I think the original Shenmue was just so meticulously designed and everything came together in a perfect storm to create a video game experience unlike any other in existence. I believe that the background music design is part of that. That's why I don't think that Shenmue III will use the same approach to background music, or at least not to the same degree. Of course, nobody knows for sure and either way I'm confident that the game will have an incredible soundtrack!
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I think.
You know... I have a friend who played Shenmue2 during the Dreamcast lifespan. And he allways said that It was one of his favourite games. I kept teling him to play Shenmue1 also, but he never did, (he had to buy it, and find his old Dreamcast and stuff). So when the Shenmue 1 & 2 collection came out for the ps4 he played it, and he was astonished at the level of detail in the game and the expirience as a whole. Even tho he liked Shenmue 2 a lot, he said he love Shenmue 1 way more, due to the intensity it makes you feel Ryo's emotions. Upon talking about it, we found that the way the music plays is one of the reasons for that. Also, In shenmue 1 Ryo's face sems to emote way better.
Its totaly understandable, as Yu Suzuki probabaly had to rush Shenmue 2 out like crazy, before it was to late, as the Dreamcast was dying. If Suzuki san had a bit more time, who know swhat we could have had.
Don't get me wrong. I love shenmue 2 a LOT.
 
Van Joel Sandwich said:
That's exactly what I think.
You know... I have a friend who played Shenmue2 during the Dreamcast lifespan. And he allways said that It was one of his favourite games. I kept teling him to play Shenmue1 also, but he never did, (he had to buy it, and find his old Dreamcast and stuff). So when the Shenmue 1 & 2 collection came out for the ps4 he played it, and he was astonished at the level of detail in the game and the expirience as a whole. Even tho he liked Shenmue 2 a lot, he said he love Shenmue 1 way more, due to the intensity it makes you feel Ryo's emotions. Upon talking about it, we found that the way the music plays is one of the reasons for that. Also, In shenmue 1 Ryo's face sems to emote way better.
Its totaly understandable, as Yu Suzuki probabaly had to rush Shenmue 2 out like crazy, before it was to late, as the Dreamcast was dying. If Suzuki san had a bit more time, who know swhat we could have had.
Don't get me wrong. I love shenmue 2 a LOT.
Click to expand...
I'm really glad to hear stories like this, but I wish that the FREE music in the PS4 port was more accurate to the original. Because the music had such an impact on me and was so integral to my experience playing the game, I'm completely unsatisfied with the PS4 version. I guess some fans don't notice it, and someone like your friend doesn't know the difference because he never played it on Dreamcast but the volume levels are all messed up in that version. If you have it on PS4 and listen to tracks such as FREE 1 and FREE 2, you'll notice that the volume levels of the different instrumentation is all out of whack, being mixed improperly and some of it being barely audible at all.

But yeah, I agree with you. I still love Shenmue II and the music in the game is absolutely fantastic, but it just doesn't have the same feel or attention to detail (understandable since everything is on a much larger scale) as Shenmue I.
 
B-Man said:
I'm really glad to hear stories like this, but I wish that the FREE music in the PS4 port was more accurate to the original. Because the music had such an impact on me and was so integral to my experience playing the game, I'm completely unsatisfied with the PS4 version. I guess some fans don't notice it, and someone like your friend doesn't know the difference because he never played it on Dreamcast but the volume levels are all messed up in that version. If you have it on PS4 and listen to tracks such as FREE 1 and FREE 2, you'll notice that the volume levels of the different instrumentation is all out of whack, being mixed improperly and some of it being barely audible at all.

But yeah, I agree with you. I still love Shenmue II and the music in the game is absolutely fantastic, but it just doesn't have the same feel or attention to detail (understandable since everything is on a much larger scale) as Shenmue I.
Click to expand...
I'm so with you on that man.
The music was the main problem I had with the re-releases....
I wouldn't mind some smal bugs, but the music is essential. Don't fuck with the shenmue music please... :)
I get that, these days allmost everything has to be rushed down like a toilet but, shenmue 1 and 2, 20 years ago were super solid games. Where you could finish them 3 or 4 times without encounter a single bug.
20 years later and with 20x times more powrful resources we make this kind of thing...

damn. loool.

still super-happy the games were re-releases of course.
 
I have a feeling the music design might be based on how Ys Net have handled environment sizes and loading.

Like what if there's no loading between interiors and exteriors? What if somewhere like Choubu is a single map you can explore without any loading zones?
 
Spaghetti said:
I have a feeling the music design might be based on how Ys Net have handled environment sizes and loading.

Like what if there's no loading between interiors and exteriors? What if somewhere like Choubu is a single map you can explore without any loading zones?
Click to expand...

If that's the case, music based on the context of the story line might be the best option I believe.
I think there will be a minimal loading screen entering shops and buildings, but who knows.
Many many things we don't have a clue yet. :)
 
That is a good point. We don't know how many loading screens there will even be. I wonder if they're deliberately keeping the loading screens or eliminating them as much as modern technology allows.
 
Eliminating them where they can is my personal guess. I mean if the technology is there, may as well, right? There are definitely going to be interiors accessible from the main game world from what we can already see, like the warehouse on Choubu's waterfront and the stores on the shopping street.

They could try something with dynamic music. It was used in Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 for the alert and caution tracks to blend them seamlessly. Though to be honest it's not exactly a trick that's caught on in a lot of other games, which makes me wonder if it's pretty tough to pull off, or too restrictive.
 
Spaghetti said:
Eliminating them where they can is my personal guess. I mean if the technology is there, may as well, right? There are definitely going to be interiors accessible from the main game world from what we can already see, like the warehouse on Choubu's waterfront and the stores on the shopping street.

They could try something with dynamic music. It was used in Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 for the alert and caution tracks to blend them seamlessly. Though to be honest it's not exactly a trick that's caught on in a lot of other games, which makes me wonder if it's pretty tough to pull off, or too restrictive.
Click to expand...
Combining that with the fact that most of the Shenmue 3 music is already made from years ago, we can guess that there is not much probability that's going to happen. lol
 
I have a bit of experience programming a dynamic music system. It's not that it's inherently technically complex or taxing to resources. But it could become quite complex depending on how it's conceptually designed.

The simplest thing to implement would be a crossfade between two complete songs. It then proceeds to become more complex depending on if there are differences in tempo, different keys for each song, and so on.

Assuming they are using the complete original songs that were composed long ago for each area and shop, and there will be no loading screen when entering or exiting a shop, I could imagine a system where the "neighborhood" or "quarter" theme plays as you walk along the streets. When you enter a zone near the entrance of a shop (a buffer area if you will, maybe the 10 feet in front of the entrance), the quarter theme fades out leaving only ambient sounds of people, nature, footsteps, etc. And as you cross the threshold into the shop, the shop theme begins. As you exit the shop and pass through the buffer area, the shop theme fades out. And then when you step onto the street, the quarter them begins again or fades back in. Of course it would have to be tested to make sure the fade times are comfortable to listen to. If they do have access to the multitracks, it could be tweaked even further so that individual instruments come in or fade out in transitional areas.
 
The Dreamcast games faded out the music when you stepped in a shop, and faded in the shop music. I don't see there being any need for that to change, seamless loading or not.

For outside area-based music though, fading without a loading screen or other clear change of area can often be jarring. The best way to avoid this is not with a dynamic music system, but instead with level design. For example, making clever use of staircases or tunnels between areas gives the player a way to mentally separate one area from another, meaning a fade out and fade in is less surprising. It only sounds odd to the player if the change seems arbitrary, like "this part of the ground is in one area where this other part of the ground is in another area".

Taking Aberdeen and Wan Chai as an example (the most "seamless world" we have in the Shenmue series to date), here's all the outdoor transitions, and whether it would be possible to get away with the simple fade the games do if it didn't have a loading screen between them (problem areas bolded):
- Worker's Pier (dock) <-> Worker's Pier (main) - occurs through a tunnel, and dock has only ambient sounds anyway, so fade
- Worker's Pier <-> Rooftop Fight - fade out while on the staircase
- Worker's Pier <-> Queen's St. (main road) - no clear transition area, so this would sound weird as a fade; it's feasible to do this as a dynamic system (but would require recomposing)
- Worker's Pier <-> Queen's St. <-> Beverly Hills Wharf - fade out while in the alley
- Worker's Pier <-> Fortune's Pier - has a barrier and small area separating the two, so fade out in that area
- Queen's St. <-> Green Market Qr. - fade out while on the bridge
- Green Market Qr. <-> South Carmain Qr. - fade out while on the staircase
- Green Market Qr. <-> Golden Qr. - fade out while on the staircase
- Green Market Qr. <-> White Dynasty Qr. - fade out while in the alley
- Green Market Qr. <-> A Vacant Lot - occurs through a doorway, and vacant lot has only ambient sounds anyway, so fade
- South Carmain Qr. <-> Wise Men's Qr. - fade out while on the staircase
- South Carmain Qr. <-> White Dynasty Qr. - fade out while on the staircase
- Wise Men's Qr. <-> Scarlet Hills - fade out while on the staircase
- Wise Men's Qr. <-> Lucky Charm Qr. (by Scarlet Hills) - could possibly use the long ramp as a transition area, but might be a little off
- Wise Men's Qr. <-> Lucky Charm Qr. (by Da Yuan Apartments) - fade out while in the tunnel
- Lucky Charm Qr. <-> Golden Qr. - fade out while on the staircase
- Lucky Charm Qr. <-> White Dynasty Qr. - fade out while on the staircase
- Golden Qr. <-> White Dynasty Qr. - fade out while on the staircase

It's good design to have elements like this in a seamless world, as it allows the player to mentally segregate areas, providing easier navigation; it wouldn't surprise me if Shenmue II was in fact intended to be seamless (since areas actually overlap, unlike the first game). With well-segregated areas, a dynamic music system isn't needed, as the player is already aware they are leaving one area and entering another, so a simple fade is welcomed.

The difficulty with dynamic music systems is not on the technical side, but on the artistic side. If you want the background music to seamlessly go from one track to another, you have to take into account the fact that you have no idea where in the song this will happen - so you have to design the music with transition points in mind, and write transitions for going from every transition point of every track to every other part of every track they can transition to. (The alternative is to make all tracks share a common base, e.g. drums, but that necessarily reduces the variety of the tracks.)

There are 40 different transitions in Aberdeen and Wan Chai. If you don't want the music to stop at any point when exploring, that's at least 40 extra pieces of music to write (and possibly more). That's too much work for too little reward. I don't know the scales involved in Shenmue III, but for anything more than about four areas it's generally not worth it.

Of course, there's no reason you couldn't have fades in some parts and dynamic transitions in others - just using dynamic transitions for the problem areas in Aberdeen and Wan Chai above is 1/10 of the work, for example. And all this ceases to be a problem if you use Shenmue I's philosophy - just use story-based music at all times while outside. Then there is no need for transitional music between outdoor areas, as they'd both be using the same music anyway.

TL;DR: Shenmue II has a lot of staircases between areas.

***

By the way, for anyone wondering about how dynamic music works, here's a good video:

 
Spaghetti said:
They could try something with dynamic music. It was used in Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 for the alert and caution tracks to blend them seamlessly. Though to be honest it's not exactly a trick that's caught on in a lot of other games, which makes me wonder if it's pretty tough to pull off, or too restrictive.
Click to expand...
It's very used in games today, just they are so seamless they don't register.
Even there are easily to get reactive music workflows that integrate with UE (Right now I'm thinking of Wwise and FMOD).

I really hope the comeback of free music, I always thought that the SII music was too upbeat for the game (and too ethnic/chinese, almost like a satire). It really did help SI to have that misterious feeling and dreadness.

But yeah, the bulk of the music is already made, so it's just a matter of waiting (and I get the feeling it'll be closer to SII than SI).
 
Personally, I slightly prefer S2's music over S1's but still absolutely love S1's. Also I don't mind the bit of "exotism" in S2's music. On the contrary, it serves to further illustrates how foreign everything really feels to Ryo in S2, coming from his 1980s Japanese village into the huge city of Hong Kong and the secluded mountain areas of Guangxi Province.

Still, wether Yu decides to go with the Free Music concept again or with the "place-specific" concept, we know S3's music will be absolutely top-notch because some of the greatest composers to ever grace the video game industry have composed it. Just read some of the composers' names and you know the music will be absolutely fantastic. Mitsuyoshi, Iuchi, Koshiro, Murata. It's not a question if S3's music will be awesome. The question is how awesome it will end up being.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top