In Shenmue 2, do you think Ryo is speaking Chinese? Or that everyone is speaking Japanese?
- Thread starter Dietsoap
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It's time we settled this once and for all bros.
Also when Joy says something in Chinese on her bike that isn't translated for the player (and Ryo can't understand either), is she actually speaking Chinese then? Or not? Think about it.
In general I just head cannon that Iwao raised Ryo to speak Chinese due to his own affection for China (we know something of his adventures there) and for cultural appreciation. In fact, teaching Ryo cultural appreciation also makes sense of why Ryo seems to know a fair bit about chinese culture and history between S2 and 3 (notwithstanding the stuff he is obviously learning directly from certain characters along the way.)
My second, more plausible theory is that Shenhua transmitted a perfect understanding of Mandarin and Cantonese directly into Ryo's sleeping brain via successive dream sequences in S1, subconsciously anticipating his arrival in Hong Kong.
Dunno about the Joy thing.
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This is obviously a plot hole since Ryo doesn't know Chinese in S1 otherwise he wouldn't need to get the letter translated. Suzuki even stated something to the effect of "because it's a game" when asked this question. I suppose he could have learned a new language in 2 weeks on the boat but that doesn't explain the scene with Joy.
Probably he is speaking broken chinese and everyone else broken japanese like some tourist trying to communicate. Or more likely we're reading way too much into the whole thing "because it's a game"
Probably he is speaking broken chinese and everyone else broken japanese like some tourist trying to communicate. Or more likely we're reading way too much into the whole thing "because it's a game"
Good point about the letter, forgot about that. Maybe Ryo always sucked at reading/writing Chinese though but got pretty adept at speaking it? (You're right though, Yu's answer basically covers it.)
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Ryo learnt really fast on the boat, how to speak Chinese, but the chapter was cut.
blixt
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Well this is just a way to tell a story. It doesn't have to be logical or understandable from our ´real´ worlds perspective. You know in anime series they sometimes do side stories that isn't in line with the main story. Parallell universes is also an example. In a Jim Carrey movie he gets his thumb shot off when he took the barrel of a gun held by a badguy.. after that scene his tumb where back again.. there are other examples as well. But they share a similarity in the sense of just to tell a story, or just for fun.
But from a more ´realistic´ point of view, yeah Ryo taught him self chinese on that boat because he's a well raised son of a genius. Or, that the people of the Shenmue Universe is telepathic and everyone understand each onother, and the voices is only there for us as story telling. .. but it's complicated
But from a more ´realistic´ point of view, yeah Ryo taught him self chinese on that boat because he's a well raised son of a genius. Or, that the people of the Shenmue Universe is telepathic and everyone understand each onother, and the voices is only there for us as story telling. .. but it's complicated
Revan
Excuse me...gorgeous
The whole universal language thing is a giant plothole, as admitted by the creator himself, and I see no other explanation for it. Just like how Ryo owns a Sega Saturn in 1986, never changes his clothes in 1 & 2, and drinks Jet Cola with Shenhua's face on the can. We're not meant to notice these details but merely just suspend some disbelief.
It's a prime example of why arguing for perfect logic in these games is a waste of time.
It's a prime example of why arguing for perfect logic in these games is a waste of time.
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If I remember correctly, the great Suzuki sama asked, in an interview, to not pressure him with this question! haha
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Although I took notice as well, I gave the benefit of the doubt that Ryo already knew basic Chinese, at least to some extent from his father or maybe even from school. I am sure Japanese schools do teach Chinese, as they do teach other languages as well. And there were other Chinese people he grew up around, friends and neighbors so that was exposure as well. I also would assume he was studying on the boat (Not sure how long the boat ride was, assuming not that long) so he was at least familiar with spoken Chinese when he got there.
And speaking a language is a whole different beast from reading it. However I took more concern with that he did not know how to read the Chinese to some extent. Chinese with it's hanzi do share quite a bit with the Japanese kanji, as the Japanese both adopted and transformed it for their own purposes. Which also begs the question and I do not know the letter off the top of my head, but depending on what the characters were and in what era it was written, as stuff has changed over the years, Ryo should of been able to at the very least, get the gist of it. But he acted like an American who has never seen such characters before. Then again maybe he grew up learning the simplified version and can not read the more traditional ones, which I am sure the quest to find out had.
However Ryo went to Hong Kong, which in general speaks Cantonese, not the same as Mandarin although I assume they do share some vocab or similar enough to understand a few things. All I know is Mandarin has four tones and Cantonese six. Also Hong Kong kept the traditional and Mainland China went with simplified if that even makes a difference which I am not sure in the instance of the letter quest does. Also it should be noted that there are quite a few Japanese living in Hong Kong. I am not sure how many there were in the 80's and obviously he did not arrive at a "Japanese Town" so it is not like every single person he spoke to would of spoken Japanese either.
In the end it does not matter, but I give Ryo room to at least know the basics. Sort of like in the EU you kind of grow up learning an assortment. Although you could not talk with medical or scientific terms, you should be able to ask for directions and read the most common of signs.
And speaking a language is a whole different beast from reading it. However I took more concern with that he did not know how to read the Chinese to some extent. Chinese with it's hanzi do share quite a bit with the Japanese kanji, as the Japanese both adopted and transformed it for their own purposes. Which also begs the question and I do not know the letter off the top of my head, but depending on what the characters were and in what era it was written, as stuff has changed over the years, Ryo should of been able to at the very least, get the gist of it. But he acted like an American who has never seen such characters before. Then again maybe he grew up learning the simplified version and can not read the more traditional ones, which I am sure the quest to find out had.
However Ryo went to Hong Kong, which in general speaks Cantonese, not the same as Mandarin although I assume they do share some vocab or similar enough to understand a few things. All I know is Mandarin has four tones and Cantonese six. Also Hong Kong kept the traditional and Mainland China went with simplified if that even makes a difference which I am not sure in the instance of the letter quest does. Also it should be noted that there are quite a few Japanese living in Hong Kong. I am not sure how many there were in the 80's and obviously he did not arrive at a "Japanese Town" so it is not like every single person he spoke to would of spoken Japanese either.
In the end it does not matter, but I give Ryo room to at least know the basics. Sort of like in the EU you kind of grow up learning an assortment. Although you could not talk with medical or scientific terms, you should be able to ask for directions and read the most common of signs.
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I don’t think it’s something the team really put too much thought into and perhaps requires a little suspension of belief rather than a definitive answer. We’re talking about a game with prophecies and magic mirrors, after all.
If you really want to force the issue, I’d say that it’s a lot more likely that they are communicating in English than any other language.
All Japanese people study English in school (although the quality of teaching is usually god-awful) and a lot of people in Hong Kong speak English due to the British influence (which was a lot more prevalent back in the late 80’s than it is today). China is a bit less westernized, but I’m fairly certain that the percentage of Chinese people who speak English is significantly higher than the percentage of Chinese people who speak Japanese.
I suppose it’s possible that Ryo learnt mandarin in his youth (possibly instigated through Iwao having spent time traveling in China), but its pretty uncommon for Japanese people to learn mandarin (especially if compared to learning English) and Ryo doesn’t seem like the kind of student who would pursue any extra-curricula activities that aren’t karate themed.
If you really want to force the issue, I’d say that it’s a lot more likely that they are communicating in English than any other language.
All Japanese people study English in school (although the quality of teaching is usually god-awful) and a lot of people in Hong Kong speak English due to the British influence (which was a lot more prevalent back in the late 80’s than it is today). China is a bit less westernized, but I’m fairly certain that the percentage of Chinese people who speak English is significantly higher than the percentage of Chinese people who speak Japanese.
I suppose it’s possible that Ryo learnt mandarin in his youth (possibly instigated through Iwao having spent time traveling in China), but its pretty uncommon for Japanese people to learn mandarin (especially if compared to learning English) and Ryo doesn’t seem like the kind of student who would pursue any extra-curricula activities that aren’t karate themed.
I like to bring this up from time to time, so: Because Iwao is voiced by Segata Sanshiro.
The only scenario that could work out is Ryo speaking some Chinese. There is no way that Shenhua and the others from Bailu Village speak either Japanese or English or any foreign language for that matter. It's very remote after all.
Thinking about that, this issue is much more of a Shenmue III question that it is one for II even.
In any case there is no good way out of this language barrier debacle, wich is why even the man himself rather avoids it altogether.
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- Jul 28, 2018
I think you will get this kind of problem with any movie or game where the story is about different countries.
Its the same in german movies for example when there are german police detectives working
in Turkey or Spain or whatever and all the people there can speak german
but with a little accent. It really doesnt make any sense.
On the other hand, if they wouldnt do that, then how would the story work?
If the detectives can speak spanish or turkish, then the whole movie needs subtitles.
Shenmue is a japanese game, so should they do one game fully voiced in japanese
and then all of a sudden with part two everyone is speaking chinese?
I dont think thats a good idea. It doesnt make any sense that children in some chinese countryside can speak japanese
but i think its better to have a consistent language until the end.
Theres no perfect solution for this scenario. Lets take Kiryu Kazuma from Yakuza and he travels to Texas for his storyline.
And now what? Does he speak american english with a japanese accent because he studied it on the plane?
Or can the people in Texas speak japanese? It doesnt make sense to look at it from a realistic point of view.
Its the same in german movies for example when there are german police detectives working
in Turkey or Spain or whatever and all the people there can speak german
but with a little accent. It really doesnt make any sense.
On the other hand, if they wouldnt do that, then how would the story work?
If the detectives can speak spanish or turkish, then the whole movie needs subtitles.
Shenmue is a japanese game, so should they do one game fully voiced in japanese
and then all of a sudden with part two everyone is speaking chinese?
I dont think thats a good idea. It doesnt make any sense that children in some chinese countryside can speak japanese
but i think its better to have a consistent language until the end.
Theres no perfect solution for this scenario. Lets take Kiryu Kazuma from Yakuza and he travels to Texas for his storyline.
And now what? Does he speak american english with a japanese accent because he studied it on the plane?
Or can the people in Texas speak japanese? It doesnt make sense to look at it from a realistic point of view.
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- Aug 22, 2018
Not really. People in Hong Kong speak Cantonese, not Mandarin.
If we’re working on the assumption that Ryo learned Mandarin when he was younger, it’s fairly unlikely that everybody that Ryo met in Hong Kong would also speak it.
Even today (when Hong Kong is a part of China), there are plenty of Hong Kongers who don’t speak Mandarin - and the game is set in the late 80’s when Hong Kong was still under British rule.
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I am pretty sure Mandarin is taught at least in some form in Hong Kong. Either that or it is simply a part of their lives. Much like the EU, a lot of those countries are bi/multi-lingual. Some even know five different languages by their 20's. "Knowing" meaning they can "get by", not hold a full blown political or medical conversation generally.
I have no doubt that Ryo learned Chinese, be it Cantonese or Mandarin or bits of both while he was growing up. Did he not have at least a tape recording of that girl singing? Nothing that I am aware of prevents him from doing so, especially if his father and some of his neighbors knew of or were Chinese. However in saying that, knowing the dialect of some small remote village is something different entirely.
Also it would of been interesting, although annoying, if certain people were not able to talk to you. I know there are a few who say they simply do not have the time or to bugger off. But when I went to Japan, the amount of the older generation being able to speak any English was low that I am aware of, while the younger generation were at least capable of simple words in the cities. Running into older people should of gotten Ryo much less conversations unless he already knew the basics of a language. Then again as others pointed out, if Ryo could spoke English and again what stopped him from learning it, a good percentage would of been able to talk to him at least in Hong Kong. He could of at least, "gotten by".
And again you can "speak" a language and not be able to "read & write" it. However kanji being taken from hanzi, I'll argue again it was a bit strange he would not be able to read what was on that object for the quest, unless that kanji simply does not exist. But then he would of simply used a dictionary, if not one he owned, then from the library. He would not of went around for hours or days on end trying to track someone who could read it. o0 But then we would not of had the story we did so it all works out. ^^!
I have no doubt that Ryo learned Chinese, be it Cantonese or Mandarin or bits of both while he was growing up. Did he not have at least a tape recording of that girl singing? Nothing that I am aware of prevents him from doing so, especially if his father and some of his neighbors knew of or were Chinese. However in saying that, knowing the dialect of some small remote village is something different entirely.
Also it would of been interesting, although annoying, if certain people were not able to talk to you. I know there are a few who say they simply do not have the time or to bugger off. But when I went to Japan, the amount of the older generation being able to speak any English was low that I am aware of, while the younger generation were at least capable of simple words in the cities. Running into older people should of gotten Ryo much less conversations unless he already knew the basics of a language. Then again as others pointed out, if Ryo could spoke English and again what stopped him from learning it, a good percentage would of been able to talk to him at least in Hong Kong. He could of at least, "gotten by".
And again you can "speak" a language and not be able to "read & write" it. However kanji being taken from hanzi, I'll argue again it was a bit strange he would not be able to read what was on that object for the quest, unless that kanji simply does not exist. But then he would of simply used a dictionary, if not one he owned, then from the library. He would not of went around for hours or days on end trying to track someone who could read it. o0 But then we would not of had the story we did so it all works out. ^^!
Mittens2317
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- The letter needed to be read in a mirror, so he probably thought "shit, this is far too advanced for me."
- They refer to the language as Chinese in the game, but never specify.
- None of it matters anyway, coz they're all clearly talking English.
- They refer to the language as Chinese in the game, but never specify.
- None of it matters anyway, coz they're all clearly talking English.
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I think you are missing the point though or maybe I am missing yours, or maybe it was just a crappy show. "You! You! And you speak German!" ^^! It is not that Turkey or Spain speaks German, but that the detectives speaks Turkish or Spanish. One would assume those of that "caliber" would have a decent education and learned at least one or two extra languages which would be ideal. It was just by luck that where they were going happened to be the languages that they had learned or that was why they were picked to go to begin with. ^^!
In terms of why the American audience can understand it at all, is because the show was made for us so we have the benefit of them speaking English, even if in poor foreign accent. But they are speaking their languages respectively. There have been a few shows like that, where the detective is baffled at a word or a phrase in another language. They speak the language to a basic or slightly better understanding, but is baffled by something. They later get help from someone else or reads up on it and then is able to solve the case. And no I can not name the episode or the detective, although I think that chubby older fellow had at least one instance of that... Inspector Poirot I believe...
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This for me. The game would be completely different if correct logic was applied. I just dismiss it for the sake of it needs to be this way to work as a game.
