Niaowu's relevance to the plot

[B-Man]

Another question is how did Iwao know that Lan Di was looking for the Dragon Mirror? The obvious answer is that it was easier to tell him it's buried under the cherry tree than to explain the entire convoluted method of acquiring the Phoenix Mirror (including visiting Bunkado Antiques first). But what if Lan Di had found the Phoenix Mirror there when he didn't even know that Iwao had it?

 

[iknifaugood]

Lan Di hanging around Japan can probably just be chalked up to plot convenience, although I don't know why it would have mattered much to say he left earlier - Ryo thought he did. Maybe just to give the story a sense of "just missed him"

I've always considered Shenmue 1's story to be compromised by the split; it's pretty clear to me that YS had no intention of Yokosuka being a standalone game, it was supposed to be the prologue to the story, nothing more. So I blame a lot of the weirdness (Ryo doesn't know where to find sailors in a harbor town) on splitting S1 and 2.

However, it's pretty easy to chalk the ending with Lan Di as a cool moment but couldn't he have been in Japan facilitating the Long Zha until Ryo interfered? That doesn't bother me as much as what the hell Lan Di knows. So he found out Iwao killed Zhao and that he had the dragon mirror (Does he know that one is a dragon and one is a phoenix? Who told him about the mirrors?) then went to kill him and retrieve the mirror but... then what? He goes to Kowloon to get Yuanda Zhu but he presumably has all the information he needs from him considering Zhu says Lan Di is going to Guilin. But in Guilin we find out that Lan Di wants stone cutters to explain... what? Yuan tells us nothing new about the mirrors and he's the direct descendant so this is a complete dead end for Lan Di (and, frankly, the story). If we assume Lan Di now knows about the dragon and phoenix mirrors, he has no further options and he doesn't appear to know that Ryo has the phoenix mirror in S3.

The thing I always found interesting was that Lan Di couldn't fathom that Iwao had both mirrors because he thinks Iwao is an asshole and assumes that if he had both he'd surely have acquired the treasure but as you said, at this point, who knows?

 

[Budgiecat]

Since the others cities have been altered to fit the narrative they could have altered Fenghuang too, get rid of or broke the stone pathway and bridge for example.

Yes its pretty obvious they did. Also kinda obvious Suzuki team did not fully research said town as meticulously as they did Yokosuka (which is a lot easier for them to do since its in their own backyard and was at a time when they had more investment money to do so but eh. Obviously for Shenmue 2, Kowloon Walled City had already been destroyed before Yu ever visited China so they only could go off old footage and heresay for that one. Guilin was also not accurate either)

 

[Niaxi]

I think the issues with what Lan Di knows again comes down to the fact that we only ever get Ryo's POV. In that regard we can only make theories based off what little we know and some assumptions.

In terms of the mirrors, I think we need to assume that Lan Di thought Iwao had one mirror and Zuh the other. Master Chen does say that both of them brought the mirrors back from China. Given that Zuh himself says that Sunming Zhao was his best friend, it is not much of a stretch to imagine that Lan Di thought that Zuh was involved with his death and had the other mirror. Since there were Chi You Men members working with the Yellowheads, the only logical assumption is that they interogated Zuh and found out he did not have the mirror. Hence, why Lan Di wasn't bothered about actually getting his hands on Zuh. Zuh then theorizes that Lan Di will be heading to Guilin because that is where the mirrors we're made and it is the only lead he now has. Hence why the stone masons we're targeted. However, it is my belief that Niao Sun was in charge of the operation in Guilin, as the south is her domain and Lan Di was obviously not told that Ryo had the other mirror.

 

[Nathanial Essex]

How do I delete this?

 

[iknifaugood]

However, it is my belief that Niao Sun was in charge of the operation in Guilin, as the south is her domain and Lan Di was obviously not told that Ryo had the other mirror.

Except that in S1, Chai knows that Ryo has the mirror and he reports to Lan Di. I always assumed Lan Di knew Ryo had the mirror in S2 so him not bothering to confront Ryo was kind of interesting. Unfortunately S3 seems to confirm that Lan Di has no idea what’s going on and doesn’t appear to be in any kind of rush to find out.

If Lan Di really doesn’t know anything more about the mirrors than Ryo then that takes away a lot of his allure as a villain. Which is reason #1178 that we should know more about the Chi You Men and why Lan Di and Niao Sun should’ve had more to say in S3. Oh well...

 

[Niaxi]

Except that in S1, Chai knows that Ryo has the mirror and he reports to Lan Di. I always assumed Lan Di knew Ryo had the mirror in S2 so him not bothering to confront Ryo was kind of interesting. Unfortunately S3 seems to confirm that Lan Di has no idea what’s going on and doesn’t appear to be in any kind of rush to find out.

If Lan Di really doesn’t know anything more about the mirrors than Ryo then that takes away a lot of his allure as a villain. Which is reason #1178 that we should know more about the Chi You Men and why Lan Di and Niao Sun should’ve had more to say in S3. Oh well...

There is no evidence that Chai reports to Lan Di. What we do know is that he is one of the Mad Angels (confirmed by Guizhang) and that it is his dream to work for Lan Di (by his own admission). Given that Lan Di does not leave Yokosuka until the end of Shenmue, it seems highly unlikely that he does report to him. Otherwise, Lan Di would have come back for the Phoenix mirror.

In Shenmue 3, it seems most likely that Chai told Niao Sun that Ryo had the second mirror. And it suited her plans not to let Lan Di in on that little secret.

 

[Machsi]

In Shenmue 3, it seems most likely that Chai told Niao Sun that Ryo had the second mirror. And it suited her plans not to let Lan Di in on that little secret.

Perhaps a 10 second cutscene could of provided this rather than fans having to speculate possible reasons she would know of Ryo and the Phoenix mirror? Maybe I’m just crazy for thinking such things. No, no... time and resources must go towards 15 buddhist alter shops.

 

[Niaxi]

Perhaps a 10 second cutscene could of provided this rather than fans having to speculate possible reasons she would know of Ryo and the Phoenix mirror? Maybe I’m just crazy for thinking such things. No, no... time and resources must go towards 15 buddhist alter shops.

While this could easily have explained it, Ryo would have had to see it. As I stated above, Shenmue is a game where we only get Ryo's perspective. Scenes between the other characters don't get seen. I suppose this raises the question of, would we like to see a change to this format? And if we did, would the game retain the same feel?

 

[iknifaugood]

In Shenmue 3, it seems most likely that Chai told Niao Sun that Ryo had the second mirror.

One is as likely as the other. At least in S1 we know that Chai worships Lan Di, we’re given no information that Chai has anything to do with Niao Sun.

I worry that all of this is left purposely obscure because it doesn’t actually add up. Lan Di does whatever the requirements of the story are, he’s not a real character (so far).

Shenmue is a game where we only get Ryo's perspective.

This is an excuse for the paltry information we got in S3. There are plenty of ways for Ryo to discover information organically but that would require the information to actually exist. Hard for him to learn about the CYM when he’s busy investigating the Red Snakes.

 

[hmjohnny]

that's not the Great Wall.
It's an abandoned remnant further south

Technically the "Great Wall" is a series of walls built by different dynasties over thousands of years. Some of them connect, some are isolated, many are abandoned. We don't know what part of the wall Ryo and team are on, but even assuming the most southern part, it is still very far north in what could only be considered Northern China. Certainly far north of Guilin.

We needn't assume that they won't necessarily return somewhat south, but it feels like parts of the story may have been excised/compressed at this point to get it further along and have the remainder of the story be the latter 'chapters' taking place in the north. Only Shenmue 4 will tell for sure though.

In Fenghuang you can walk across the river bank via stone pathway or take a bridge. Would defeat the purpose of using the boat to the fortified castle if it were that easy

This still doesn't explain why it has to be a fictional city in Guilin though. Kowloon was fictionalized but still based on a real place in proximity to Hong Kong. Why does Shenmue 3 need to take place in Guilin (completely changed from real life) other than Bailu? Why couldn't Niaowu actually be a fictionalized version of Fenghuang? It's not that I care that much, it's just a nitpick considering Shenmue always used real life locations.

I assume this is the case because Fenghuang was never a location of the VFRPG and its inclusion was made up for Shenmue 3. Still I thought there might be an in game explanation why this has to be Guilin especially since the ending takes us so far north anyway.

 

[hmjohnny]

I never took Lan Di to not know about the Phoenix Mirror, I just assumed that he thought Iwao only possessed on of the mirrors and continued his search for the other. That would explain why he was pursuing Yuanda Zhu in Shenmue 2 and why he sent thugs to ransack Bailu in Shenmue 3.

He thought Yuanda Zhu may know the location of the mirror and/or found out that the creators descendants may know as well. It would also explain why he didn't jump down from the helicopter at the end of Shenmue 2; He got what he needed from Yuanda Zhu and didn't think Ryo possessed the other mirror. Maybe he thought letting Ryo go would lead him to the other mirror (which is somewhat alluded to in the Shenmue 3 bad ending).

His return in both 1 and 2's bad endings to get the phoenix mirror implies that he was still searching for it and found out that Ryo had it.

 

[Machsi]

I never took Lan Di to not know about the Phoenix Mirror, I just assumed that he thought Iwao only possessed on of the mirrors and continued his search for the other. That would explain why he was pursuing Yuanda Zhu in Shenmue 2 and why he sent thugs to ransack Bailu in Shenmue 3.

He thought Yuanda Zhu may know the location of the mirror and/or found out that the creators descendants may know as well. It would also explain why he didn't jump down from the helicopter at the end of Shenmue 2; He got what he needed from Yuanda Zhu and didn't think Ryo possessed the other mirror. Maybe he thought letting Ryo go would lead him to the other mirror (which is somewhat alluded to in the Shenmue 3 bad ending).

His return in both 1 and 2's bad endings to get the phoenix mirror implies that he was still searching for it and found out that Ryo had it.

Master Chen mentioned that Zhu and Iwao both returned from China with the mirrors. I assume Zhu gave Iwao both and Lan Di assumed Iwao had the dragon mirror and Yuanda Zhu had the phoenix mirror.

Chai mentioned in S1 that Lan Di “hates Zhu Yuan Da” so I am thinking Lan Di groups both Iwao and Zhu together as the reason his father was killed. Why he hates both Iwao and Zhu.

 

[Yokosuka]

Technically the "Great Wall" is a series of walls built by different dynasties over thousands of years. Some of them connect, some are isolated, many are abandoned. We don't know what part of the wall Ryo and team are on, but even assuming the most southern part, it is still very far north in what could only be considered Northern China. Certainly far north of Guilin.

We needn't assume that they won't necessarily return somewhat south, but it feels like parts of the story may have been excised/compressed at this point to get it further along and have the remainder of the story be the latter 'chapters' taking place in the north. Only Shenmue 4 will tell for sure though.


This still doesn't explain why it has to be a fictional city in Guilin though. Kowloon was fictionalized but still based on a real place in proximity to Hong Kong. Why does Shenmue 3 need to take place in Guilin (completely changed from real life) other than Bailu? Why couldn't Niaowu actually be a fictionalized version of Fenghuang? It's not that I care that much, it's just a nitpick considering Shenmue always used real life locations.

I assume this is the case because Fenghuang was never a location of the VFRPG and its inclusion was made up for Shenmue 3. Still I thought there might be an in game explanation why this has to be Guilin especially since the ending takes us so far north anyway.

I do assume Niaowu is there for fan service as well. Another theory is that Niaowu shares similar sound with Niao Sun for a reason. Putting forward the symbol of bird was important for story purposes and upcoming Chi You Men lore development.

But I think Budgiecat made a point with his theory of bridge. Socially speaking, the lack of easy crossing changes a lot of things on the relation the inhabitants may have with the reverse side and the fictional history of the place.
But the lack of explained background makes any assumption really difficult to say and doesn't help to add sense.

That's another weak point of the game. Besides the main quest, the lore is terribly lacking. Niaowu feels more like a movie set-up made of cardboards than a real and ancestral Chinese location. Shenmue series has never been Bioware games in terms of lore development, but undoubtedly Shenmue III suffered from its lack of social interaction with interesting characters to deepen the material and convey a sense of reality.

Overall, if I could sum up all Shenmue III issues in one word, it would be: Superficiality.

 

[Machsi]

I do assume Niaowu is there for fan service as well. Another theory is that Niaowu shares similar sound with Niao Sun for a reason. Putting forward the symbol of bird was important for story purposes and upcoming Chi You Men lore development.

But I think Budgiecat made a point with his theory of bridge. Socially speaking, the lack of easy crossing changes a lot of things on the relation the inhabitants may have with the reverse side and the fictional history of the place.
But the lack of explained background makes any assumption really difficult to say and doesn't help to add sense.

That's another weak point of the game. Besides the main quest, the lore is terribly lacking. Niaowu feels more like a movie set-up made of cardboards than a real and ancestral Chinese location. Shenmue series has never been Bioware games in terms of lore development, but undoubtedly Shenmue III suffered from its lack of social interaction with interesting characters to deepen the material and convey a sense of reality.

Overall, if I could sum up all Shenmue III issues in one word, it would be: Superficiality.

I agree with alot of your points. Shenmue II had really nailed the feeling of immersion and the interaction with NPCs made it more realistic. Niaowu looks visually stunning, but some parts of it do kind it give it a movie set feel I suppose

 

[iknifaugood]

He thought Yuanda Zhu may know the location of the mirror and/or found out that the creators descendants may know as well.

The problem with this is that we know that both Zhu and the stonecutters in Bailu were dead ends so what's Lan Di's plan until Ryo shows up with what he needs? This is why purposely keeping information obscure is only useful at the BEGINNING of a story. We should know by now what Lan Di wants (or at least what he tells the CYM he wants) and some idea of what the CYM know about the whole affair. Remember Yuanda Zhu was Sunming Zhao's best friend and he knew that Iwao brought both mirrors to Japan (that's how Master Chen knew there were two mirrors in Japan).

So basically there are two possibilities and only one is interesting:
1. (the interesting one) Lan Di finds out from Zhu that Iwao had both mirrors and assumes that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror. He then waits for Ryo to bring the mirror to him knowing he will seek revenge after he sees him on the rooftop in Kowloon. The big question is why: this would require Lan Di to know more about the situation than we currently do (thus why it's interesting), maybe he knows about the poem? He knows something about why Shenhua is important? Who knows?

2. Lan Di killed Iwao, then went after Zhu who told him that Iwao only had one mirror and now Lan Di is fucked. He goes to Guilin to find the stonecutters because it's his last option (even though literally everyone who tells you anything about the mirrors knows they're made of Phantom River Stone so that should've been the first place he looked considering he owns a castle nearby). This means Lan Di knows next to nothing about the mirrors and makes him an incompetent villain.

S3 really makes me think that option 2 is more likely.

That's another weak point of the game. Besides the main quest, the lore is terribly lacking. Niaowu feels more like a movie set-up made of cardboards than a real and ancestral Chinese location. Shenmue series has never been Bioware games in terms of lore development, but undoubtedly Shenmue III suffered from its lack of social interaction with interesting characters to deepen the material and convey a sense of reality.

Overall, if I could sum up all Shenmue III issues in one word, it would be: Superficiality.

Agreed. Every place in Shenmue feels authentic in a way that Niaowu doesn't. It's like the difference between the Star Wars prequels (that look fake because they're too clean and perfect) and the originals (which look lived in and gritty). The places also have unique identities: Yokosuka is an idyllic home town, Wan Chai is a bustling city with rich and poor areas, Kowloon is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, Guilin is a quaint rural mountain town and Niaowu is... a tourist trap? A gambling den? It never really clicked with me.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

I replayed the end of Bailu yesterday so I could explore the boat in Niaowu.

I can't help but cringe and laugh when Ryo says "This is huge!" after looking at the scroll with Yeh and Shenhua, and Yeh says the two mirrors are the key to a hidden treasure. We knew that for 18 years, bud!

And then Shenhua says "This is a lot to take in" after they discuss the 3 images. No, Shenhua. It's literally the closest thing to nothing to take in.

Despite the weak reveal, I thought everything else was presented well enough: climbing the Bell tower, the token puzzle (the animation of Ryo inserting these was pretty cool), the confrontation with Chai at least had potential to be interesting, and Ryo practicing under the moon harkened back to that final scene with Xuiying. Niaowu really needed a final act before the castle that was comparable to Bailu.

 

[bèlinho]

Speaking of that puzzle, in Shiling's temple, where you can find some backers banners, there is a statue that also revolves like that one puzzle, but I couldn't make it work or didn't find something needed to activate it. Does anyone know if it can lead to something, or its just a remnant of sothing else that was cut?

 

[Lan Di-sama]

Speaking of that puzzle, in Shiling's temple, where you can find some backers banners, there is a statue that also revolves like that one puzzle, but I couldn't make it work or didn't find something needed to activate it. Does anyone know if it can lead to something, or its just a remnant of sothing else that was cut?

Peter just posted about this in the Choubu chan topic. Apparently if you dig through the rubble when you first enter the trashed temple, you find a clue as to how to turn the wheel. In the end, you only get a shop card.

Maybe it had more of a purpose at some point

 

[hmjohnny]

So basically there are two possibilities and only one is interesting:
1. (the interesting one) Lan Di finds out from Zhu that Iwao had both mirrors and assumes that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror. He then waits for Ryo to bring the mirror to him knowing he will seek revenge after he sees him on the rooftop in Kowloon. The big question is why: this would require Lan Di to know more about the situation than we currently do (thus why it's interesting), maybe he knows about the poem? He knows something about why Shenhua is important? Who knows?

2. Lan Di killed Iwao, then went after Zhu who told him that Iwao only had one mirror and now Lan Di is fucked. He goes to Guilin to find the stonecutters because it's his last option (even though literally everyone who tells you anything about the mirrors knows they're made of Phantom River Stone so that should've been the first place he looked considering he owns a castle nearby). This means Lan Di knows next to nothing about the mirrors and makes him an incompetent villain.

S3 really makes me think that option 2 is more likely.

I've always thought option 2 to be more likely than 1 when I was playing the original games.

I don't think it makes him an incompetent villain if he does indeed know, or thinks he knows, what the mirrors actually do (what the treasure is). But you're right, that is an assumption since Shenmue 3 never bothered to reveal what the CYM are after.

Option 2 on its own isn't bad though, He knew Iwao had at least one mirror and was searching for Yuanda Zhu at the same time. He likely thought that Iwao didn't have both mirrors, YZ warns Iwao about 'those who seek the mirror' so the CYM were after YZ before even going to Japan, likely because they didn't know where the mirrors were.

Also, going to Bailu would be a last resort since the CYM knew Sunming Zhao had the mirrors last and they wouldn't have been returned to Bailu. When Iwao/YZ turned up dead ends they went to the source to see if they could get any clues.

Again I'm not bothered by any of this if they had properly explained who the CYM are and their motivations.