Random Shenmue Thoughts

People, I truly get from where is It born: get things moving on. I respect that a lot. But you should think twice about what you wish: moving/swapping director its a trigger for development hell (It isn't right now, we're just clueless). There're plenty of examples of that, mostly at movies but its not much different. The series already have an important sort of cursed legend, headlines like "The creator himself gives up" would be breakfast for haters.
To avoid extending & repeating myself, with two scenarios being YS on board and off, personally I think there is no comparison both on:
1) How much Shenmue will the finished product be. Whats Shenmue? Among many things, Shenmue its Yu Suzuki's childhood, lifelessons, him in definitive.
& 2) How we will feel as a whole, end of the road, S4 existing and with the consequent YS direction, interviews, conferences, etc.
I want Yu Suzuki as total director.

Edit: remember the case of DmC changing director for a "new cooler and modern" one and he put himself as Dante. Face, hairstyle and all. I say danger high voltage.
 
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tomboz said:
That’s not necessarily a bad thing, though It’s hard to argue that having hyper realistic ball physics in Pachinko tables makes up for the pacing issues in the first game or that having weather based on historical data excuses the crummy voice acting and direction throughout the series. The aforementioned examples and the many others like them are cool and all, but, just as in Avatar, they’re arguably a case of style over substance. Let’s put it this way: would anybody even notice these things if they weren’t pointed out to them and do they actually make the games better?
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I think one problem is working on a blank checkbook mentality which worked for the first Shenmue, but less so for the 3rd game (although I do wish that the physics for lucky hit were the same for 3!) I don't think they make the games better, but I think that because such attention to detail is being discussed over 20 years later should be cause for celebration. Whilst I disagree with the article, I do see a parallel with Cameron and Suzuki in that they do things their way; it's just a shame that one was more successful than the otehr.

tomboz said:
Last year, I heard from a very reliable source that Yu received an offer for funding on the condition that he took a step back from the project and allowed somebody else to direct (they wanted him to serve as the creative director). At the time, I was very much against the idea, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
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I think I know the answer already, but I take it the source would have to remain anonymous? I'm unsure what I think about Suzuki not being the director, although I wouldn't object to a co-director. After all, he didn't direct the anime and the end result was still very good and he was still very hands on with that.

Aside from Kojima and Metal Gear Solid, I can't think of any other franchise where one person is so tied to it (I know there are others, but none I can think of in my gaming experience!)
 
bcdcdude said:
I think one problem is working on a blank checkbook mentality which worked for the first Shenmue, but less so for the 3rd game (although I do wish that the physics for lucky hit were the same for 3!) I don't think they make the games better, but I think that because such attention to detail is being discussed over 20 years later should be cause for celebration. Whilst I disagree with the article, I do see a parallel with Cameron and Suzuki in that they do things their way; it's just a shame that one was more successful than the otehr.
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Let’s not forget that Yu was a huge deal back in the nineties before Shenmue. I’m not sure he was quite at Kojima or Miyamoto levels of fame (both of whom were helped quite a lot by the rising popularity of the Internet), but he was certainly one of the biggest names in gaming back then. Some might argue that he still is, even if his reputation has been tarnished a little in recent years.

I agree that the lucky hit physics in S3 were pretty bad, but I’d have settled for physics that were merely good rather than perfect if it meant that more time was spent elsewhere. That said, I do realize that my last post was a little hypocritical in that I suggested these kind of things were irrelevant and then straight away praised Yu’s attention to detail for having defined the first two games.

These kind of things are important for helping to set the game apart and make the world more immersive, but I do think that there are more important, and, in some cases, fundamental areas that are being overlooked in their place. To that end, having a co-director to focus on those areas while Yu does his mad scientist stuff seems like it could work if he can be persuaded to loosen his grip on the steering wheel just a touch.

bcdcdude said:
I think I know the answer already, but I take it the source would have to remain anonymous? I'm unsure what I think about Suzuki not being the director, although I wouldn't object to a co-director. After all, he didn't direct the anime and the end result was still very good and he was still very hands on with that.

Aside from Kojima and Metal Gear Solid, I can't think of any other franchise where one person is so tied to it (I know there are others, but none I can think of in my gaming experience!)
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Right you are, I’m afraid. I’ve probably said too much already, too be honest. As I say, I too was a little taken aback when I heard that somebody wanted to make a Shenmue game without Yu Suzuki in the driving seat, but the more I think about, the more I wonder whether it might be for the best. Moreover, it may well end up being the only way that we’ll ever see an end to Shenmue in video game form, so there is that.

I guess if I really think about it, I’d like to see Yu finish the series on his own terms. If somebody is able to persuade him to hand over a bit of creative control and he’s happy with whatever arrangement they can come to, that’s fine with me. Likewise, if he wants to keep fighting to do things his own way, that’s cool too, even if we never see a proper conclusion as a result. Yu has sacrificed a lot for Shenmue. He’s earned the right to go out on his own terms.
 
tomboz said:
, that’s cool too, even if we never see a proper conclusion as a result. Yu has sacrificed a lot for Shenmue. He’s earned the right to go out on his own terms.
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Yu certainly does things his own way.

he seems to be very protective over shenmue but at the same time he doesn't seem to care that much about how long it takes to complete the story.. he even stated in an interview he, himself thought the shenmue series was dead at one point and he had given up on it.

i personally don't think it's right that he leaves us fans hanging. i know things are flowing slowly since shenmue3 but if he decides to gives up on the shenmue series again, he really needs complete the story in a series of books or graphic novels.. it's not fair on us fans to not see an ending.
 
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red said:
i personally don't think it's right that he leaves us fans hanging. i know things are flowing slowly since shenmue3 but if he decides to gives up on the shenmue series again, he really needs complete the story in a series of books or graphic novels.. it's not fair on us fans.
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I think the fact that he’s seemingly still exploring options is a pretty clear indicator that he still believes that he will get a chance to complete the story in game form - and on his own terms to boot. Perhaps his plan is to put out a few smaller games first to raise funds or to prove to potential investors that he still has what it takes? I suspect we’ll get a clearer idea of the situation at some point over the next twelve months.

You’re not the first Dojo member who has suggested that Yu owes fans an explanation and I’m sure you won’t be the last. I’m not really sure what you expect him to say though, other than what he’s stated repeatedly on numerous occasions over the past few years: if he gets a chance to make a new Shenmue game then he’d love to make it.

If that changes, then sure, he should probably figure out another way to provide closure to the fans, or at least let us know that the dream is dead. Until then, however, like Yu, all we can really do is wait.
 
tomboz said:
. I’m not really sure what you expect him to say though, other than what he’s stated repeatedly on numerous occasions over the past few years: if he gets a chance to make a new Shenmue game then he’d love to make it.
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thing is, if Yu can negotiate the rights for the shenmue series from sega to make another game(s3), he must be able to use his influence to finish shenmue another way..if he wanted to.
 
red said:
thing is, if Yu can negotiate the rights for the shenmue series from sega to make another game(s3), he must be able to use his influence to finish shenmue another way..if he wanted to.
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He probably could, yes, and so the fact that he hasn’t done so already again seems like a pretty clear indicator that he would rather see the series conclude in video game form. I’m pretty sure that’s what most Shenmue fans want too, so I’m not really sure what the problem is.

Are you saying that you want him to give up now and finish the story another way? If so, I hate to break it to you, but that’s really not your call to make, nor is it anybody else’s but Yu’s. This idea that he somehow owes it to the fans to provide constant updates or compromise his vision reeks of entitlement.
 
I imagined a scene with Yu Suzuki reading us, and reacting over it. But I deleted It, because suddenly I thought "its very early, you didn't had coffee yet, maybe its not a good idea". There was a punch in a mirror, blood... But its deleted.
 
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tomboz said:
Are you saying that you want him to give up now and finish the story another way? If so, I hate to break it to you, but that’s really not your call to make, nor is it anybody else’s but Yu’s. This idea that he somehow owes it to the fans to provide constant updates or compromise his vision reeks of entitlement.
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i'm not being a hater. i like Yu Suzuki.

just imo if shenmue 4 doesn't work out, i think he should finish the series another way for the fans.

i don't want to hear that he's walked away from the series again and has just given up, because sega isn't interested in the shenmue series and no one else is going to give us an ending.
 
red said:
i'm not being a hater. i like Yu Suzuki.

just imo if shenmue 4 doesn't work out, i think he should finish the series another way for the fans.

i don't want to hear that he's walked away from the series again and has just given up, because sega isn't interested in the shenmue series and no one else is going to give us an ending.
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Why don't you write fanfiction for the ending of Shenmue if you want an ending that bad if Yu Suzuki doesn't delivers then?
 
Catchanysailorshere? said:
Why don't you write fanfiction for the ending of Shenmue if you want an ending that bad if Yu Suzuki doesn't delivers then?
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Getting huge ChatGPT vibes from this. Unfortunately, the service is down, so the next best option would be to play the final two and a half minutes of the Breaking Bad finale on mute, with this in its place:

 
tomboz said:
He probably could, yes, and so the fact that he hasn’t done so already again seems like a pretty clear indicator that he would rather see the series conclude in video game form. I’m pretty sure that’s what most Shenmue fans want too, so I’m not really sure what the problem is.

Are you saying that you want him to give up now and finish the story another way? If so, I hate to break it to you, but that’s really not your call to make, nor is it anybody else’s but Yu’s. This idea that he somehow owes it to the fans to provide constant updates or compromise his vision reeks of entitlement.
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I understand the “entitlement” mindset and it is not healthy. However, this situation is a little unique. If it weren’t for us fans, Shenmue 3 would not exist and the success of the kickstarter helped it to receive the additional funding it did get to make it as good as it was. Not saying that entitles us to ask for everything, but I do think there should be some mutual respect.

In my opinion, the only way Yu would not be able to give us a status update is if it is already funded and being produced. By not saying anything, this is all we can assume is happening. If that is not true, it will lead to annoying even the hardcore fans. If nothing is happening yet, I do believe he owes us fans an update. We did help resurrect this franchise and I think he can be clear of where we are at after all of those efforts. Would it be so hard to say something like he is still in discussions with folks based on different scenarios and trying hard to get this greenlit (if that is the current state)?

Hopefully we will all be pleasantly surprised by an announcement this year, but if not, we can’t just have silence or “would love the opportunity…”
 
japalp said:
I understand the “entitlement” mindset and it is not healthy. However, this situation is a little unique. If it weren’t for us fans, Shenmue 3 would not exist and the success of the kickstarter helped it to receive the additional funding it did get to make it as good as it was. Not saying that entitles us to ask for everything, but I do think there should be some mutual respect.

In my opinion, the only way Yu would not be able to give us a status update is if it is already funded and being produced. By not saying anything, this is all we can assume is happening. If that is not true, it will lead to annoying even the hardcore fans. If nothing is happening yet, I do believe he owes us fans an update. We did help resurrect this franchise and I think he can be clear of where we are at after all of those efforts. Would it be so hard to say something like he is still in discussions with folks based on different scenarios and trying hard to get this greenlit (if that is the current state)?

Hopefully we will all be pleasantly surprised by an announcement this year, but if not, we can’t just have silence or “would love the opportunity…”
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I do understand why some people are frustrated by the lack of news and can also see why they may think that they’re owed an explanation as to what’s going on behind the scenes. At the end of the day though, chipping in a few hundred bucks for the Shenmue 3 Kickstarter (or even a few thousand) doesn’t give anyone the right to know everything that’s going on in Yu’s professional life. That was never part of the deal.

Though it may not have been the game that everybody wanted it to be (it certainly wasn’t quite what I was hoping for and I’m not sure that Yu himself was completely happy with the final product either), he fulfilled his obligation to the fans and Kickstarter backers the moment he delivered Shenmue 3. As for his promise that he would never give up on the series as long as the fans continue to support it, it appears that he‘s still trying hard to find a way to secure funding for a new game as well as looking into how he can make the next game even better than the last one.

I don’t know if we’ll ever get a Shenmue 4, but who the hell are we to tell Yu Suzuki when he should give up hope of making one? Ultimately, he’s either going to find somebody to fund the damned thing or keep on trying until he feels as though he’s explored every single possibility. Sure, one of those two things could happen over the next twelve months but it could just as easily happen in five or ten years time. Until it does, I really don’t get what he’s supposed to say other than what he’s told us time and time again.
 
Nobody is giving up hope.

It is really simple - there are only 2 possibilities.

First - the game is in production. No obligation to say anything until they want to announce and market. Totally understand and respect.

Second - the game is not in production. Why not communicate with your fans? The issue is not knowing anything or just the one line answers. Just be open and give your supporters some insight. We aren’t asking him for much here guys.
 
Seaman said:
Because many motives. Specially, because for every comment in the line "Thanks for the feedback. Keep It Up." we get x100 "lol those models, animations, physics... Fonts." The fonts dude 😢
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Again, I am not asking for “progress reports” or anything like this. I am not saying he hasn’t “fulfilled his obligation to kickstarter backers”. I do not feel entitled to hear the story before he is ready to divulge.

I just think he should be more open about the status of Shenmue. I’m sorry, but I do think he should give back to his hardcore fans about what is going on. There are ways to do this between “I would love to work on it if given the opportunity” and spilling everything. He’s either working on it or not. Still not hearing why he shouldn’t give us fans a more robust status update if he is not. At some point, more and more of us will stop caring.
 
japalp said:
Again, I am not asking for “progress reports” or anything like this. I am not saying he hasn’t “fulfilled his obligation to kickstarter backers”. I do not feel entitled to hear the story before he is ready to divulge.
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I never said that. I was answering to Why no communicate with fans.
Take the comments at GTA6 leaked alpha gameplay. It's normal that companies get more reclusive with events like that.

I understand what you said, but I'm on the side of not being mandatory of communicating with fans. Zero. Im not asking you to change your mind, its ok if you want more feedback.

I appreciate you guys, even some I'm disagreeing with. So for my side, I'll be keeping this discusion unpassionate (as possible😄 there's always a Reeee! lurking around)
 
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japalp said:
Nobody is giving up hope.

It is really simple - there are only 2 possibilities.

First - the game is in production. No obligation to say anything until they want to announce and market. Totally understand and respect.

Second - the game is not in production. Why not communicate with your fans? The issue is not knowing anything or just the one line answers. Just be open and give your supporters some insight. We aren’t asking him for much here guys.
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Ignoring all of the other possibilities for a moment (talks are still ongoing, he’s working on something else right now, he has a conditional offer that should see production begin at some point in the future, he’s been slowly working on the game in-house since 2019 while waiting to find the right publisher, etc), I’m genuinely curious what kind of insight/updates you expect him to be giving.

Let’s for a moment say that the game is not in production right now but that Yu is still exploring his options in terms of funding. Is he supposed to come out and say “I still really want to make Shenmue 4 but nobody will give me the money to make it”? If so, how often would you like him to say it? Does he say it on Twitter or should he try and line up an interview with a gaming publication in which this is the sole topic (he doesn’t seem to have any other projects that he’s free to talk about right now)?

I don’t know if you’ve ever had what seemed like an impossible dream, but I can tell you from personal experience that the constant setbacks that can sometimes go hand in hand with bringing such a dream to fruition can be incredibly demoralizing. Each failed pitch and unread email stings like a slap in the face and makes it harder and harder to continue to believe that somebody is eventually going to say yes.

With that in mind, is it any wonder that Yu is not too keen to publicly admit to these failings? Think how it would look to potential investors if he came out and said something to the extent of “I’ve been repeatedly turned down by potential publishers and investors”, because that seems to be the reality of it at this time. I can see the headlines already.

Right now, all fans can really do is be patient and continue to support him and the series publicly. That way, when potential publishers are weighing up whether or not to take a chance on Yu they can see that he still has a vocal and loyal fan base in his corner, which will always count for something. If that ever stops being the case then Shenmue and any hopes of seeing it completed in video game form really will be dead.
 
tomboz said:
Ignoring all of the other possibilities for a moment (talks are still ongoing, he’s working on something else right now, he has a conditional offer that should see production begin at some point in the future, he’s been slowly working on the game in-house since 2019 while waiting to find the right publisher, etc), I’m genuinely curious what kind of insight/updates you expect him to be giving.

Let’s for a moment say that the game is not in production right now but that Yu is still exploring his options in terms of funding. Is he supposed to come out and say “I still really want to make Shenmue 4 but nobody will give me the money to make it”? If so, how often would you like him to say it? Does he say it on Twitter or should he try and line up an interview with a gaming publication in which this is the sole topic (he doesn’t seem to have any other projects that he’s free to talk about right now)?

I don’t know if you’ve ever had what seemed like an impossible dream, but I can tell you from personal experience that the constant setbacks that can sometimes go hand in hand with bringing such a dream to fruition can be incredibly demoralizing. Each failed pitch and unread email stings like a slap in the face and makes it harder and harder to continue to believe that somebody is eventually going to say yes.

With that in mind, is it any wonder that Yu is not too keen to publicly admit to these failings? Think how it would look to potential investors if he came out and said something to the extent of “I’ve been repeatedly turned down by potential publishers and investors”, because that seems to be the reality of it at this time. I can see the headlines already.

Right now, all fans can really do is be patient and continue to support him and the series publicly. That way, when potential publishers are weighing up whether or not to take a chance on Yu they can see that he still has a vocal and loyal fan base in his corner, which will always count for something. If that ever stops being the case then Shenmue and any hopes of seeing it completed in video game form really will be dead.
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I've said this many a time. We have no automatic right to any sorts of updates. With the Shenmue 3 Kickstarter we gave up our money to see the project realised so we had some sort of grounds for updates. Going forwards I expect it to be like any other game series. Silence until they can talk about something.

Would I like some, of course, but in reality he's under no obligation to. If he's asked about 4 I'd expect him to give the same answers that he has been. Like Tomboz has said he's hardly going to admit publicly he's been turned down by X, Y or Z publisher as it means others may think twice. And that's without the headlines.

What we do know is that they want to do it, he's exploring options and the 110 stuff hasn't gone away. We must remain vocal and keep pushing as best we can.
 
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