Response To SuperEyePatchWolf Shenmue 3 Review

[Thomasina]

I don’t agree with his example of execution but I would like a return of one off QTE’s like those found in Shenmue 2, which results in branching pathways i.e. chasing Wong or duck stand QTE.

Yeah, those were cool. The game adapting to your success or failure in S2 was a great idea and seemed like a natural evolution of the QTE premise. That's not what he describes tho in this video.

His example is you're walking past a table, a QTE prompts of Ryo bumping into the table. If you're successful, Ryo catches a bottle that gets knocked off and places it back on the table. If you fail, you pay the person for their drink you ruined. It's a really terrible idea.

I like qtes that are relevant to a scenario, not completely random. I did not like that in S3 it boiled down to memorization by repetition.

 

[code l name]

Yeah, those were cool. The game adapting to your success or failure in S2 was a great idea and seemed like a natural evolution of the QTE premise. That's not what he describes tho in this video.

His example is you're walking past a table, a QTE prompts of Ryo bumping into the table. If you're successful, Ryo catches a bottle that gets knocked off and places it back on the table. If you fail, you pay the person for their drink you ruined. It's a really terrible idea.

I like qtes that are relevant to a scenario, not completely random. I did not like that in S3 it boiled down to memorization by repetition.

Well I think the point he was getting at was there was a consequence if you failed a QTE and couldn’t just immediately try it again. In a sense we had that in original game with the drunk sailor i.e if you fail you lose the rest the evening unable to explore.


Obviously I would only want that if the QTE’s are a case of skill like original games and simply not failing and remembering button combinations.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think it's a fair answer, aside from two or three lines.

Although I disagree with the conclusion. While I agree that Shenmue III is a good starting fondation on some aspects for Shenmue IV, those aren't solid fondations on many aspects.
Basically, what is ready:
- Scripts and NPCs mechanics
- Mini-games
- A lot of gameplay mechanics

What isn't ready:
- Collision system
- Fighting system (It needs a rework)

And that's for the technical side. When it comes to the story side, there's the problem that Shenmue III felt like both a filler entry... And one that will leave a gap between 2 and 4. It seems like we're heading to the cliff temple with the feeling that barely much happened between tje cave and the great wall.

 

[The Hero Spot]

Love his content but I found that to be a pretty weak video to be honest, I agree with his take on the controls and short second cutscenes not being an issue but the stamina and combat are pretty hard to defend imo

 

[ShenSun]

Stamina system could work. it just needs fine tuning, It depletes too quickly. Slow it down x6 and allow Ryo to run even if his health is low. The only draw back should be when you go into combat, you'll have no health so you still have to feed Ryo.

The combat is pretty good if you spend alot of time with it. The issue is the hit detection and animations are all over the place. It is kind of sluggish aswell. With that said though, it is very technical if you know what you're doing. Its definitely flawed, but we have a good base. Improving it going forward should be much much easier. Oddly enough, i did feel like the combat in the battle rally was a lot more fine tuned. It would have been nice if the castle battle on the bridge was like the battle rally.

Shenmue 3 has alot of systems and mechanics. Improving them in the sequel should be pretty straight forward

 

[The Hero Spot]

Stamina system could work. it just needs fine tuning, It depletes too quickly. Slow it down x6 and allow Ryo to run even if his health is low. The only draw back should be when you go into combat, you'll have no health so you still have to feed Ryo.

The combat is pretty good if you spend alot of time with it. The issue is the hit detection and animations are all over the place. It is kind of sluggish aswell. With that said though, it is very technical if you know what you're doing. Its definitely flawed, but we have a good base. Improving it going forward should be much much easier. Oddly enough, i did feel like the combat in the battle rally was a lot more fine tuned. It would have been nice if the castle battle on the bridge was like the battle rally.

Shenmue 3 has alot of systems and mechanics. Improving them in the sequel should be pretty straight forward

I think if the stamina system returns, it should be separate from your health bar and it should regenerate over time and can regenerate faster through eating so it doesn’t feel like a chore

I’ve spent a lot of time with the combat and I just can’t find it in me to consider it good. I’d just much rather have them return to the virtua fighter combat.

 

[Thomasina]

Stamina system could work. it just needs fine tuning, It depletes too quickly. Slow it down x6 and allow Ryo to run even if his health is low. The only draw back should be when you go into combat, you'll have no health so you still have to feed Ryo.

Anything could work if you pour resources into it. The question is is it necessary and is it important?

 

[ShenSun]

Anything could work if you pour resources into it. The question is is it necessary and is it important?

I think if the stamina system returns, it should be separate from your health bar and it should regenerate over time and can regenerate faster through eating so it doesn’t feel like a chore

I’ve spent a lot of time with the combat and I just can’t find it in me to consider it good. I’d just much rather have them return to the virtua fighter combat.

Fair points. I see where you guys are coming from but we have the stamina system now along with the food etc. Might aswell tweak some values and improve it. Make it separate from the health bar if need be. Tweak it to the point where the player wont be annoyed or notice it. It seems like hardly any resources would be needed for such a tweak since all the mechanics have already been made. The hard part is out the way.

I like the combat and think it has potenial. It does need some serious work though and im hoping its much more faster and snappier in Shenmue 4.

I know alot of you want the virtua fighter engine bac, but we aren't getting it. i think alot of people need to come to terms with that or they'll just upset themselves in the sequel.

If by some miracle SEGA pick up the franchise again and invest heavily into the series, then maybe. But i think thats a pipe dream and something thats very unlikely to happen. We're gonna have the Shenmue 3 fighting engine as the base by the looks of it and improvements will be made. It might not be ideal but it is where we are. Happy to be wrong though and if they replace it completely, ill be down for that aswell.

 

[The Hero Spot]

Fair points. I see where you guys are coming from but we have the stamina system now along with the food etc. Might aswell tweak some values and improve it. Make it separate from the health bar if need be. Tweak it to the point where the player wont be annoyed or notice it. It seems like hardly any resources would be needed for such a tweak since all the mechanics have already been made. The hard part is out the way.

I like the combat and think it has potenial. It does need some serious work though and im hoping its much more faster and snappier in Shenmue 4.

I know alot of you want the virtua fighter engine bac, but we aren't getting it. i think alot of people need to come to terms with that or they'll just upset themselves in the sequel.

If by some miracle SEGA pick up the franchise again and invest heavily into the series, then maybe. But i think thats a pipe dream and something thats very unlikely to happen. We're gonna have the Shenmue 3 fighting engine as the base by the looks of it and improvements will be made. It might not be ideal but it is where we are. Happy to be wrong though and if they replace it completely, ill be down for that aswell.

I don’t expect the VF combat to return but I’d say it’s a million times better than the new combat system. But who knows, sega has been giving Shenmue more attention recently. I’m hoping they’ve picked up interest in the series

 

[Dg1995]

Can't wait for reresponse video.

 

[Suzaku]

Didn't watched the video because I'm not interested in youtube reviews both negagive or positive.

But it's true that cklickbaits always pays a lot. A video with clickbate title, hate and lots of hyperboles was discussed for 27 pages, while a more sober video with honest talling (from what you said) made just 2 pages of discussion.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Some of us enjoy listening to what others have to say about their experiences with a piece of media/art. It helps me understand my own experiences. What's the big controversy?

 

[Thomasina]

Didn't watched the video because I'm not interested in youtube reviews both negagive or positive.

But it's true that cklickbaits always pays a lot. A video with clickbate title, hate and lots of hyperboles was discussed for 27 pages, while a more sober video with honest talling (from what you said) made just 2 pages of discussion.

Why comment on 2 videos you can't be bothered to watch? And this video isn't a review. It's a response to a review.

Part of em wants to share the AM2 Podcast review on this main board but I'd hate to see people attack those 2 guys and say they aren't Shennmue fans. The Shenmue AM2 podcats had pretty much nothing positive to say and gave it a 6/10 and a 6.5/10.

The truth is that it's simply not a well received game.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

There's very little I can add since @Thomasina pretty much expressed my overall impression with the video. Personally, the food/stamina system and the economy did not bother me. However, if we get a Shenmue IV, these mechanics need to either be scrapped or fleshed out to their fullest.

Suzuki has stated that he wants Shenmue to be more accessible without losing what made the series attractive in the first place. In order to do that, Suzuki will have to make some concessions to conventional game design. It won't be something hardcore fans will be happy with, but I want this series to have a future.

Where I fundamentally disagree with Oregon Pacifist is on the story. In my opinion, the story suffers from pacing issues, forgettable characters, and not fleshing out the plot threads it teases the player with. I don't mind a slow-paced story as long as the payoff is worth it (which is why the first Shenmue game is a masterpiece in my eyes) but that was not the case here. It's also highly presumptuous at this point to assume that Shenmue IV is a guarantee. This is why Shenmue III should have focused on its strongest elements instead of trying to do everything.

 

[orient]

This is why Shenmue III should have focused on its strongest elements instead of trying to do everything.

But what are the strongest elements of Shenmue? To me it's the atmosphere, characters and mystery, but it's different for everyone. I don't care about the fighting. I don't care about gambling, capsule toys and arcade games, but some people do. Heck, lots of people like the stilted VO. I didn't know I'd enjoy collecting herbs but I did. Making a more focussed or smaller-scale Shenmue III sounds obvious in hindsight, but I guarantee that no matter how they sliced it, they would've disappointed lots of fans no matter what.

They tried to deliver a "full" Shenmue experience, maybe to the game's detriment, but I respect them for going all-out and at least trying to deliver something on par with the older games. That is ultimately what the fans wanted. They may have only got 60/70/80% there depending on who you ask, but it's all too easy to say it was the wrong decision at the time.

*I also disagree with the story part, FWIW. The main plot takes a back seat in SIII, and it's missing some of the more relatable character moments of previous games. Thankfully, the atmosphere and world was enough for me to really enjoy my time exploring, walking around etc. for the most part.

 

[spud1897]

Why comment on 2 videos you can't be bothered to watch? And this video isn't a review. It's a response to a review.

Part of em wants to share the AM2 Podcast review on this main board but I'd hate to see people attack those 2 guys and say they aren't Shennmue fans. The Shenmue AM2 podcats had pretty much nothing positive to say and gave it a 6/10 and a 6.5/10.

The truth is that it's simply not a well received game.

You might want to check the actual data that's out there on that. Not saying its wholly representative but given it was quoted in the Embracer financials there must be some element of truth.

At the risk of repeating myself:

A definition of a bad game isn't a 68 (might be 67 now) on Metacritic, it's considered average by reviewers. A 7.8 user reviews might be considered high, due to the counter on the review bombing, but that's the score. I think 69 on open critic so we're averaging close to 7/10 which is hardly a disaster. 76% of google users liked the game (4 stars from 160 reviews on there). 4.5 Stars from Amazon UK off of 202 reviews, and you have to buy the game to review it. Amazon.com 4.5 Stars off of 352 reviews. Amazon Japan 4.5 off of 245 reviews, 7/10 IMDB, Gamestop 4.4 stars off of 101 reviews, Bestbuy 4.5 off of 318 reviews, UK playstation store 4.5 stars off of 287 reviews, US Playstation Store 4.5 stars off of 321 reviews.

So let's not pass off that it's not a well received game as fact. A 6/6.5 is middling. That's it.

It's certainly not fact, only opinion, that its been wholly poorly received.

 

[Down by Law]

Just to add weight to your points there spud, i'm as big a Shenmue fan as they come. But even I couldn't be arsed to write an Amazon review, click stars on PSN or any of that stuff. I very much doubt i'm alone in that. Maybe I should.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

But what are the strongest elements of Shenmue? To me, it's the atmosphere, characters, and mystery, but it's different for everyone. I don't care about fighting. I don't care about gambling, capsule toys, and arcade games, but some people do. Heck, lots of people like the stilted VO. I didn't know I'd enjoy collecting herbs but I did. Making a more focussed or smaller-scale Shenmue III sounds obvious in hindsight, but I guarantee that no matter how they sliced it, they would've disappointed lots of fans no matter what.

They tried to deliver a "full" Shenmue experience, maybe to the game's detriment, but I respect them for going all-out and at least trying to deliver something on par with the older games. That is ultimately what the fans wanted. They may have only got 60/70/80% there depending on who you ask, but it's all too easy to say it was the wrong decision at the time.

*I also disagree with the story part, FWIW. The main plot takes a back seat in SIII, and it's missing some of the more relatable character moments of previous games. Thankfully, the atmosphere and world were enough for me to really enjoy my time exploring, walking around, etc. for the most part.

I can not speak for every fan, but for most fans, it's the story. There's a reason why the Kickstarter earned over six million dollars. The final moments in Shenmue II says it all:


The most common complaint I hear from critics is the narrative progression. So to me, it seems that a lot of people love Shenmue's story. Even Super Eyepatch Wolf said he would've forgiven the game's flaws if the story was engaging.

As for fans complaining, that was going to happen no matter what Suzuki did. This is compounded even further by the length of time between the second and third games. Gaming has changed dramatically in the fifteen years after Shenmue II. Expectations have changed and fans of the first two games have placed Shenmue I and II on a pedestal. So there was no way you weren't going to disappoint some fans out there.

I commend Suzuki's efforts to give the fans the Shenmue they wanted. However, you should only give what you realistically have. As the age-old adage goes, "When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one."

 

[orient]

I can not speak for every fan, but for most fans, it's the story. There's a reason why the Kickstarter earned over six million dollars. The final moments in Shenmue II says it all:

It seems that way, but I honestly believe it isn't the overarching plot that sticks with people most -- it's the characters, the locations, the atmosphere, and the sense of mystery. It's the world you're able to live in. To me, that's what Shenmue is all about. Do I think Shenmue III was a success in regards to all of this criteria? No, especially in the character department, but I can understand why they prioritised things like a semi-open-world, an economy and side activities over filling the game with story beat after story beat, because living in the world is essential to the Shenmue experience. We could argue all day over what the "correct" balance is -- many would say there isn't enough main story in the first game, and as fans we may act like Shenmue II is an action-packed story-filled blockbuster, but I've watched LPers who found it just as slow and meandering as the first game -- but I'm not about to go down that rabbit hole again.

I commend Suzuki's efforts to give the fans the Shenmue they wanted. However, you shouldshould only give what you realistically have. As the age-old adage goes, "When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one."

While I agree with the general sentiment, try telling that to Shenmue fans from two years ago, many of whom were expecting nothing short of the full Shenmue experience, and were ready to disavow the game completely if it didn't deliver that. Now imagine the immense pressure Yu and his team would've been under knowing that, and knowing people have been waiting 18 years for something that feels like Shenmue, with 70,000 already paid up and waiting. It's very easy to understand why they took the road they did with Shenmue III.

 

[Godokunodan]

I don’t agree with his example of execution but I would like a return of one off QTE’s like those found in Shenmue 2, which results in branching pathways i.e. chasing Wong or duck stand QTE. On that note, all I want is the QTE’s to work like the original games. Imagine in 1998 they had multiple variants and not instant fail states which chasing Jimmy. Get them up to that quality and ensure they are thoroughly playtested and I will be content.

Its a matter of perspective. Most gamers are perfectionists. Even if there weren't instant fail states in the current QTEs, most real ambitious gamers would reload their game save and try to get a perfect on the QTEs. Suzuki made the QTEs in the perfectionist state because that's what his hardcore gamer fans demanded. Most of the people complaining about Shenmue 3 are casual gamers, passive gamers that are ok with mediocrity, failing half a QTE and expecting a reward. Look , you fail half a QTE, you do not pass "Go" you do not " Collect 100 dollars" . Yu Suzuki made some of the old QTEs with fail states because he was trying to cater to casuals more back then. That and he had a $70 million dollar budget, so he could afford to put a million QTEs in the game, making some of them throw-away. In Shenmue 3 Suzuki had to make every QTE count because there were so few of them. You don't even get a QTE until the end of Bailu section of the game.