Response To SuperEyePatchWolf Shenmue 3 Review

[Revan]

That's not what I was refering to. You were replying to a post that was excessive, claiming the game was all about fishing. So that was fine by me.

Ok that’s fair. I thought you mean’t you saw someone merely express an opinion only to be bullied for it, when that’s not how the debate got started.

 

[Rydeen]

The problem with this assertion is whether the work is engaging enough to warrant a closer look. If it isn't, then no one is going to care to investigate it further.

That's certainly true, but if you're also suggesting that Shenmue III doesn't warrant a closer look, I would disagree.

Shouldn't he though? Considering...

Honestly, I was hoping someone would check me on this, because I couldn't recall whether or not something like that actually happened. So, thank you.

Basically, this helps in establishing that Chai probably did relay the information about the mirror to Niao Sun, and that she was really stalking her prey in Niaowu.

That seems like a bit of a reach based on what we see in S3. She is only shown successfully duping Ryo and Shenhua (not exactly masters of espionage) by dressing up as someone else even though they've never met her.

You didn't see her smirking while she was telling Ryo what had happened to Shenhua, or her expression when she tells Ryo not to lose sight of someone he cares about while running around searching for things in Niaowu? I think there's plenty of evidence, even if you just wanted to extrapolate from her theatrics when burning down the castle, that she derives a great deal of pleasure from manipulating and deceiving people.

Again, Ryo and Shenhua don't know her from Adam, either way, but the people in town more than likely do know her as Niao Sun. As Niao Sun she's not even remotely conspicuous, even if the citizenry weren't making a scene around her. It doesn't really make sense for her to be that conspicuous if she's trying to gather information on Ryo and Shenhua.

 

[xatruio]

The problem with this assertion is whether the work is engaging enough to warrant a closer look. If it isn't, then no one is going to care to investigate it further.

Well, I'd say to your contrary; if you're someone who'd been so turned off to never even want to give at least one more casual look--not necessarily mollasses pace--then I'll have to simply take your subjective statements with even larger grains of salt. Why give serious credibility to those whose attention and appreciation miss the nuanced intricacies? We're on entire different planes with fundamental disagreement, so what's the point of justifying debate or an attempt at winning them over?

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

Well, I'd say to your contrary; if you're someone who'd been so turned off to never even want to give at least one more casual look--not necessarily molasses pace--then I'll have to simply take your subjective statements with even larger grains of salt. Why give serious credibility to those whose attention and appreciation miss the nuanced intricacies? We're on entirely different planes with fundamental disagreement, so what's the point of justifying debate or an attempt at winning them over?

Most rational people are capable of understanding nuance. However, if an individual doesn't have the motivation to investigate further then they aren't going to. The easiest way to go about motivating an individual is to create something they enjoy. Not saying one can't be convinced through differing opinions, but it all goes back to the motivation of the individual.

 

[xatruio]

Most rational people are capable of understanding nuance. However, if an individual doesn't have the motivation to investigate further then they aren't going to. The easiest way to go about motivating an individual is to create something they enjoy. Not saying one can't be convinced through differing opinions, but it all goes back to the motivation of the individual.

Precisely, if you don't have the motivation to feel compelled to enjoy the things I enjoy, there's no use in wasting energy the exhausting, stubborn bickering.

 

[WuyingRen]

If she doesn't know at the beginning, when would she have found out? There definitely seems to be a missing story beat, like she should've seen that Ryo has the mirror as Li Feng. Also, I assume that Lan Di didn't know that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror before the ending but who knows? Technically Chai should've told him in S1 right? Also, Chai is established as working/wanting to work for Lan Di, not Niao Sun, so why would he report to her anyway?

It’s certainly possible that she finds out at some point during Shenmue 3. There are several instances where Ryo casually whips it out to show people (particularly elder Yeh whose house is open for all to see) around Bailu and we know that she was in or near Bailu at the same time as Ryo.

In terms of the people who know that Ryo has the mirror, Chai and Zu seem to be the two most likely to pass on this information to Niao-Sun assuming that she doesn’t find out for herself.

Chai now seems to be working directly with her and, if you subscribe to the idea that Zu is Tentei, Zu is her boss. Both would have reason to tell her whilst the latter would have reason for keeping this information from Lan Di.

As for why Chai didn’t tell Lan Di about the mirror, that’s a question that could have been asked as far back as the first game, but it’s possible that Lan Di just had no interest in working with a creature like Chai and that Chai didn’t really have a chance to pass on this information as a result.

I think I might have made this comparison before, but Chai’s character bares resemblance to Ephialtes from Greek history. In much the same way that King Leonidas saw no value in somebody who is too weak to fight, I think it’s logical that Lan Di (a man who seems to value strength and power over everything else) would see no value in Chai.

Niao-Sun on the other hand, would likely see Chai’s sneakiness and volatility as assets and so to me it makes sense that she would offer him a chance to work with the Chiyou Men and that he in turn would share his secrets with her.

 

[iknifaugood]

Basically, this helps in establishing that Chai probably did relay the information about the mirror to Niao Sun, and that she was really stalking her prey in Niaowu.

I don't understand the leap from Chai reporting to Lan Di to Chai reporting to Niao Sun. As I recall Chai only ever mentions wanting to work for Lan Di.

I think there's plenty of evidence, even if you just wanted to extrapolate from her theatrics when burning down the castle, that she derives a great deal of pleasure from manipulating and deceiving people.

Knowing nothing about her character outside S3 (so no counting pre-release descriptions of her including her name), all I really gathered about her character from the actual game was that she was biding her time, waiting to overthrow Lan Di and she uses more indirect methods to get what she wants. There are several questions though: Does Lan Di know that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror prior to the ending? Does Niao Sun know about the Dragon Mirror? Why would she play her hand so early if she only has half of what she needs? What are Lan Di's goals vs. Niao Sun's? Was Lan Di involved in kidnapping Shenhua and Yuan, or was that just Niao Sun's thing?

the people in town more than likely do know her as Niao Sun.

Do they? I assume so, but it's never established in S3. Compare that to the way everyone speaks of Lan Di in S1 and 2, everyone knows who he is.

It’s certainly possible that she finds out at some point during Shenmue 3. There are several instances where Ryo casually whips it out to show people (particularly elder Yeh whose house is open for all to see) around Bailu and we know that she was in or near Bailu at the same time as Ryo.

That's true but she's never shown in Bailu Village, we're only introduced to Li Feng on the boat to Niaowu. Again, it just seems like something that was supposed to be there but isn't.

In terms of the people who know that Ryo has the mirror, Chai and Zu seem to be the two most likely to pass on this information to Niao-Sun assuming that she doesn’t find out for herself.

Chai now seems to be working directly with her

I still don't understand the leap from Chai reporting to Lan Di to Chai reporting to her. At the very least he needed to have mentioned something about this for it to register with the audience. He wouldn't shut up about Lan Di in the first game.

As for why Chai didn’t tell Lan Di about the mirror, that’s a question that could have been asked as far back as the first game, but it’s possible that Lan Di just had no interest in working with a creature like Chai and that Chai didn’t really have a chance to pass on this information as a result.

I think I might have made this comparison before, but Chai’s character bares resemblance to Ephialtes from Greek history. In much the same way that King Leonidas saw no value in somebody who is too weak to fight, I think it’s logical that Lan Di (a man who seems to value strength and power over everything else) would see no value in Chai.

This is what I always assumed in S1, but I also assumed that Chai wasn't coming back (the cut boat chapter notwithstanding). So it totally makes sense that Chai had information for Lan Di and just never got the chance to tell him in S1, it seems extremely unlikely that he wouldn't get the chance to tell him after all this time, to say nothing of the fact that we have no idea what Chai was doing during the events of S2 and yet is still able to track Ryo...

Niao-Sun on the other hand, would likely see Chai’s sneakiness and volatility as assets and so to me it makes sense that she would offer him a chance to work with the Chiyou Men and that he in turn would share his secrets with her.

And if that were in the game that would indeed clear quite a few things up, but I just can't grant that much of an assumption based on nothing. Chai never mentions Niao Sun and she never mentions him and Chai is not subtle about his goals or who he's working for, so there's a missing link there.

 

[hmjohnny]

It’s certainly possible that she finds out at some point during Shenmue 3. There are several instances where Ryo casually whips it out to show people (particularly elder Yeh whose house is open for all to see) around Bailu and we know that she was in or near Bailu at the same time as Ryo.

Knowing nothing about her character outside S3 (so no counting pre-release descriptions of her including her name), all I really gathered about her character from the actual game was that she was biding her time, waiting to overthrow Lan Di and she uses more indirect methods to get what she wants. There are several questions though: Does Lan Di know that Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror prior to the ending? Does Niao Sun know about the Dragon Mirror? Why would she play her hand so early if she only has half of what she needs? What are Lan Di's goals vs. Niao Sun's? Was Lan Di involved in kidnapping Shenhua and Yuan, or was that just Niao Sun's thing?

Regarding whether Niao Sun knows about the the Phoenix Mirror I've seen other posts saying she was biding her time etc. If her goal was simply to get the mirror she could've taken by force earlier no? Unless she thinks she can't Ryo in a fight.

The implication is she was biding her time to use Ryo to get Lan Di to usurp him but I don't think this makes sense. Did she count on Lan Di being beaten by Ryo? If she did why burn the place down, and if she didn't she could've burned the place down anyway.

We have no indication that she has or knows where the Dragon Mirror is so keeping Lan Di alive for those purposes falls flat. It's entirely possible that she thinks there is only one mirror the way Lan Di did when he came to collect from Iwao.

I mean it is possible that she thought the only way to get the mirror was to lure Ryo with Shenhua as the bait and bode her time until she could do that but it's more likely a plot contrivance to get Ryo to the final dungeon than a deep character trait.

 

[WuyingRen]

That's true but she's never shown in Bailu Village, we're only introduced to Li Feng on the boat to Niaowu. Again, it just seems like something that was supposed to be there but isn't.

Well we know that she was on the same boat as Ryo and Shenhua which suggests that she was in the vicinity of Bailu village. That Bailu is such a close-knit community is probably why she wouldn’t want to make her presence known there. The villagers and Shenhua would be wondering who she was and why she was there (just look at how much Ryo stands out) and that she just happens to be there at the same time that a group of thugs are raiding the village might cause a bit of suspicion. It makes sense that she wouldn’t want to be seen.

I still don't understand the leap from Chai reporting to Lan Di to Chai reporting to her. At the very least he needed to have mentioned something about this for it to register with the audience. He wouldn't shut up about Lan Di in the first game.

As far as I’m aware, Chai never reported directly to Lan Di and was instead working for an intermediary (Terry) to arrange Lan Di’s visit to Yokosuka. It’s true that Chai had ambitions of working for Lan Di, but I don’t believe he ever really fulfilled them and can certainly see a man like Lan Di seeing no value in the services of somebody like Chai. In many ways, they are polar opposites.

This is what I always assumed in S1, but I also assumed that Chai wasn't coming back (the cut boat chapter notwithstanding). So it totally makes sense that Chai had information for Lan Di and just never got the chance to tell him in S1, it seems extremely unlikely that he wouldn't get the chance to tell him after all this time, to say nothing of the fact that we have no idea what Chai was doing during the events of S2 and yet is still able to track Ryo...

Perhaps in seeking out Lan Di he came across Niao-Sun? I can’t imagine that there’s a direct line to Lan Di meaning that he probably had to approach somebody lower down in the CYM. It’s entirely possible that the news that Chai had information regarding the mirror’s location was intercepted by or passed through Niao-S. I’d love to see this elaborated on in a future game, but from what we saw in S3, it seems pretty clear that whatever happened, Chai is now in Niao-Sun’s service.

And if that were in the game that would indeed clear quite a few things up, but I just can't grant that much of an assumption based on nothing. Chai never mentions Niao Sun and she never mentions him and Chai is not subtle about his goals or who he's working for, so there's a missing link there.

I think everybody has their own personal requirements when it comes to exposition and how much of it is needed.

For me, there are certainly some areas of the story where I feel like a little more was needed, but when it comes to Chai working with Niao-Sun, I feel as though we’re given enough to be able to draw our own reasonable assumptions as to how events might have unfolded.

Given that we’re predominantly shown events solely through Ryo’s eyes, I think it’s only natural that there will be times when we have to use our imaginations a little just as Ryo does. We can’t know for certain because Ryo doesn’t.

I understand that some people might not like this style of storytelling, but for me it’s quite fitting for a series that, to me at least, is all about immersing the player in the game’s world and putting them in the shoes of Ryo.

 

[WuyingRen]

Regarding whether Niao Sun knows about the the Phoenix Mirror I've seen other posts saying she was biding her time etc. If her goal was simply to get the mirror she could've taken by force earlier no? Unless she thinks she can't Ryo in a fight.

The implication is she was biding her time to use Ryo to get Lan Di to usurp him but I don't think this makes sense. Did she count on Lan Di being beaten by Ryo? If she did why burn the place down, and if she didn't she could've burned the place down anyway.

We have no indication that she has or knows where the Dragon Mirror is so keeping Lan Di alive for those purposes falls flat. It's entirely possible that she thinks there is only one mirror the way Lan Di did when he came to collect from Iwao.

I mean it is possible that she thought the only way to get the mirror was to lure Ryo with Shenhua as the bait and bode her time until she could do that but it's more likely a plot contrivance to get Ryo to the final dungeon than a deep character trait.

I doubt that she expected Ryo to beat Lan Di; but that she thought that he would serve as a big enough distraction to keep Lan Di busy until it was too late seems plausible to me (I mean, that’s very nearly what happened).

Her plan very nearly succeeded (technically we still don’t know for sure that it didn’t - although I think it’s a very safe bet that Lan Di didn’t perish in the fire). Had Ryo not been there to keep Lan Di busy it would have been certain to fail because the second he saw smoke or flames, Lan Di would have left and then gone straight after Niao-Sun.

That she could very easily have asked Mr. Muscles to take the mirror from Ryo suggests that getting Ryo to the castle was very much a part of her plan. You could certainly argue that it’s convenient to the plot, but even knowing nothing about her character it would make sense for her to do everything in her power to increase the chances of her plan working - and Ryo being at the castle certainly serves that purpose.

I do like the idea that Tentei could have told both Lan Di and Niao-Sun about the existence of only one of the mirrors and tasked each of them with retrieving it in exchange for control of the CYM when he steps aside. Perhaps we will find out in a future entry to the series.

 

[iknifaugood]

Well we know that she was on the same boat as Ryo and Shenhua which suggests that she was in the vicinity of Bailu village. That Bailu is such a close-knit community is probably why she wouldn’t want to make her presence known there. The villagers and Shenhua would be wondering who she was and why she was there (just look at how much Ryo stands out) and that she just happens to be there at the same time that a group of thugs are raiding the village might cause a bit of suspicion. It makes sense that she wouldn’t want to be seen.

If her goal was simply to get the mirror she could've taken by force earlier no?

This is why it's very important to know who knows what when (and why I suspect Shenmue plays this very close to the chest). The story only really makes sense if the CYM know that there are two mirrors but think Iwao only had one, and think that Yuanda Zhu and then the stone-cutters in Guilin can point them in the direction of the other. This means that Niao Sun can't know that Ryo has the mirror in Guilin because why not just raid the village with the CYM and take it from him? Why stop at abducting the stone cutters? She learns that he has it in Niaowu and works to obtain it without Lan Di finding out about it. But it also means that Niao Sun has to know about the Dragon Mirror, so if she doesn't think Lan Di has it, where does she think that is? That also goes against her character being this all-knowing spymaster.

It's entirely possible that she thinks there is only one mirror the way Lan Di did when he came to collect from Iwao.

I do like the idea that Tentei could have told both Lan Di and Niao-Sun about the existence of only one of the mirrors and tasked each of them with retrieving it in exchange for control of the CYM when he steps aside. Perhaps we will find out in a future entry to the series.

Lan Di didn't necessarily think there was only one mirror, only that Iwao had possession of one. Considering the number of random-ass characters who know about both mirrors, and that Lan Di was headed for Guilin where stone cutters were being abducted for information about the mirrors, like I said, it only really makes sense if they know that both exist, just not where they are.

I'm not sure we can assume Tentei even exists, as far as the games state, Lan Di is the leader of the CYM and as of S3, Niao Sun is the de facto leader.

As far as I’m aware, Chai never reported directly to Lan Di and was instead working for an intermediary (Terry) to arrange Lan Di’s visit to Yokosuka. It’s true that Chai had ambitions of working for Lan Di, but I don’t believe he ever really fulfilled them and can certainly see a man like Lan Di seeing no value in the services of somebody like Chai. In many ways, they are polar opposites.

I know, I just mean that his goal is to work for Lan Di/report to Lan Di, not Niao Sun.

from what we saw in S3, it seems pretty clear that whatever happened, Chai is now in Niao-Sun’s service.

How is that made clear? We see Chai twice in S3, once where he attempts to steal the treasure scroll from Ryo only to tell him that the stone cutters are on a boat to Niaowu, and next when he shows up to take another elbow to the sternum and provide Ryo with the keys to free Yuan. In both cases he could be any random thug.

I think everybody has their own personal requirements when it comes to exposition and how much of it is needed.

For me, there are certainly some areas of the story where I feel like a little more was needed, but when it comes to Chai working with Niao-Sun, I feel as though we’re given enough to be able to draw our own reasonable assumptions as to how events might have unfolded.

Given that we’re predominantly shown events solely through Ryo’s eyes, I think it’s only natural that there will be times when we have to use our imaginations a little just as Ryo does. We can’t know for certain because Ryo doesn’t.

We're shown Chai stalking Ryo in S1 when Ryo is unaware and Chai tells Ryo what his plans are; this would've been extremely easy to do in S3. Shenmue isn't subtle about storytelling things like that. However, and this is a problem with Shenmue's storytelling across all 3 games, it very frequently values "surprising the player" over "making sense when you think about it" so I think the reason that no one mentions Niao Sun is so that her reveal at the end would be sufficiently "shocking".

 

[Rydeen]

Do they? I assume so, but it's never established in S3. Compare that to the way everyone speaks of Lan Di in S1 and 2, everyone knows who he is.

Very few people talk about knowing who Lan Di is, relative to all of the characters in those games. Niaowu is basically presented as Niao Sun's base of operations. I am certain many of them know at least vaguely who she is. She's still too conspicuous as Niao Sun, either way. There's no way she's able to act the same way as Li Feng, but without the disguise, and appear approachable to Ryo or Shenhua.

But it also means that Niao Sun has to know about the Dragon Mirror, so if she doesn't think Lan Di has it, where does she think that is? That also goes against her character being this all-knowing spymaster.

Pretty much. That's why I said the fact that she tries to trap Lan-Di in a burning building implies that Lan Di didn't have the dragon mirror on him, and she believes that she either knows where Lan Di is keeping it, or has an idea of where it is. The interesting thing would be if Lan Di suspected Niao Sun would pull this kind of stunt, and the other mirror wasn't where she was led to believe it would be.

I'm not sure we can assume Tentei even exists, as far as the games state, Lan Di is the leader of the CYM and as of S3, Niao Sun is the de facto leader.

We pretty well can based on a number of different factors, but I'm almost positive Lan Di is never said to be the leader of the CYM; Only a leader of the CYM. If he was, it was probably a translation error.

How is that made clear? We see Chai twice in S3, once where he attempts to steal the treasure scroll from Ryo only to tell him that the stone cutters are on a boat to Niaowu, and next when he shows up to take another elbow to the sternum and provide Ryo with the keys to free Yuan. In both cases he could be any random thug.

He has his own room set up near Niao Sun's quarters. He was put in charge of watching Gan Rou and co. in Bailu. They talk about how Chai was set on them as a watchdog multiple times. It's a pretty safe bet he was reporting to her. Chai was definitely not in the position of a random thug.

We're shown Chai stalking Ryo in S1 when Ryo is unaware and Chai tells Ryo what his plans are; this would've been extremely easy to do in S3. Shenmue isn't subtle about storytelling things like that. However, and this is a problem with Shenmue's storytelling across all 3 games, it very frequently values "surprising the player" over "making sense when you think about it" so I think the reason that no one mentions Niao Sun is so that her reveal at the end would be sufficiently "shocking".

I actually kind of hate how Chai does this. It's one of those silly contrivances where an antagonist starts telling the protagonist things he shouldn't be (do not even get me started on FFVIIR). The only saving grace there is that Chai is a bit dimwitted. No, I disagree that it would in any way be good storytelling to have Niao Sun go off on a contrived diatribe about her master plan, and spin into verse her many machinations, in front of Ryo.

It would make it simple for the audience, and leave little room for any more elegant narrative down the road, that's for sure.

At any rate, Niao Sun's reveal does much more to illucidate aspects of her character than it does to "shock" anyone. So I'm relatively certain the intent was the former. I'm not even sure what moments you're thinking of where the series attempts to surprise the player, rather than make sense, aside from maybe the end of Shenmue II, I guess.

 

[iknifaugood]

Very few people talk about knowing who Lan Di is, relative to all of the characters in those games.

Nearly every character of importance knows who Lan Di is (Guizhang, Master Chen, Xiuying, Ren, Yuanda Zhu, Yuan etc.) and who the Chi You Men are. Point is, they're not a secret organization by any stretch and Lan Di (and I would assume all 4 leaders) is known by reputation.

Niaowu is basically presented as Niao Sun's base of operations. I am certain many of them know at least vaguely who she is.

Ren is taken aback when Ryo mentions that Lan Di is the man he's looking for and specifically says "Lan Di of the Chi You Men?". You don't think he'd mention something about Niao Sun of the Chi You Men in her base of operations?

She's still too conspicuous as Niao Sun, either way. There's no way she's able to act the same way as Li Feng, but without the disguise, and appear approachable to Ryo or Shenhua.

Her disguise makes sense, I don't have any issue with it. I just don't think she's characterized as "master manipulator" in S3.

That's why I said the fact that she tries to trap Lan-Di in a burning building implies that Lan Di didn't have the dragon mirror on him, and she believes that she either knows where Lan Di is keeping it, or has an idea of where it is.

Why would Lan Di leave what he believes is his father's property anywhere but on his person at all times? This is a huge stretch that might work if the game established it in any way.

The interesting thing would be if Lan Di suspected Niao Sun would pull this kind of stunt, and the other mirror wasn't where she was led to believe it would be.

That would've been a highly interesting thing to include in the ending to S3.

We pretty well can based on a number of different factors, but I'm almost positive Lan Di is never said to be the leader of the CYM; Only a leader of the CYM. If he was, it was probably a translation error.

I've wondered if it's a translation error myself but Master Chen says "Lan Di... I know of him. An organization called Chi You Men, its leader goes by that name." in S1 and Niao Sun declares herself the leader in S3 "Lan Di... that fool. The Chi You Men belong to me now! Hahahaha!".

He has his own room set up near Niao Sun's quarters.

I thought that was really more of an easter egg. I mean it has those goofy pictures of his family...

They talk about how Chai was set on them as a watchdog multiple times. It's a pretty safe bet he was reporting to her. Chai was definitely not in the position of a random thug.

Not that he's in the position of a random thug but you could swap him for any random thug or a new character and it wouldn't make a difference. That it's Chai specifically serves no narrative purpose except for the fact that he might have been able to tell someone about the Phoenix Mirror, but he's never shown doing that.

I actually kind of hate how Chai does this. It's one of those silly contrivances where an antagonist starts telling the protagonist things he shouldn't be (do not even get me started on FFVIIR). The only saving grace there is that Chai is a bit dimwitted. No, I disagree that it would in any way be good storytelling to have Niao Sun go off on a contrived diatribe about her master plan, and spin into verse her many machinations, in front of Ryo.

I didn't say it would be good storytelling, I said it's how Shenmue does things. If we were supposed to know that Chai told Niao Sun about the Phoenix Mirror, there would have been some scene or reference to that happening. But regardless, we should know how Niao Sun knows that Ryo has it and Lan Di doesn't (otherwise why would he fly away in S2?) because as it stands, that hasn't been established. I suspect there's a missing scene where she finds out as Li Feng.

At any rate, Niao Sun's reveal does much more to illucidate aspects of her character than it does to "shock" anyone. So I'm relatively certain the intent was the former.

It's certainly presented as a plot twist, complete with flashbacks to show how the rug was ostensibly pulled from under you. Though I agree that it's not particularly shocking.

I'm not even sure what moments you're thinking of where the series attempts to surprise the player, rather than make sense, aside from maybe the end of Shenmue II, I guess.

- All references to there being only 1 mirror completely disappear after Ryo learns about both in S1, including the letter from Yuanda Zhu which seems to be written solely for what Ryo/the audience know at that point so that the existence of the Phoenix Mirror can be a surprise.

- Lan Di shows up out of nowhere to find Yuanda Zhu at the climax of Shenmue 2 only to leave without him I guess simply to make an appearance in the game? It can be argued that he only needed to know to go to Guilin and was only interested in Zhu because he thought he had the mirror, but the way it's presented in the game is definitely "cool surprise moment" first, "makes sense" second (or possibly, like, tenth).

- No one in Niaowu, the town "run" by Niao Sun and the Chi You Men, mentions either Niao Sun or the CYM so that her reveal can be a surprise to the player. If the audience had any knowledge of Niao Sun at that point, no one would be fooled by Li Feng (which could have played into Suzuki's hands because only Shenhua needs to be fooled but I digress).

- Every character who magically knows where Lan Di is going to be in the next game (this is almost as bad as a monologue).

I'm sure there are more but those are the ones that stick out off the top of my head.

 

[Rydeen]

God, every damn time. Without fail. I brought this on myself, but I don't think you realize how taxing it is to go through this explosion of challenges you make to every minute detail, when half the time they don't particularly matter, or you're simply misinterpreting something.

You said "everyone" (in italics), but you rightly listed a handful because he's infamous in certain circles, as you acknowledge all of the CYM leaders likely are. I don't know what your argument really is anymore. I feel like you should have already proven to yourself that people know Niao Sun, and she couldn't hide in plain sight. I believe, based on some of your other comments, that you're hung up on this idea that she has to have a name that is called out by the end of the game in some way, or else she's poorly written, which is frankly silly. Nowhere is this a requirement. It is not a new thing to introduce characters without immediately giving their names. It simply wasn't an important detail, at the end of the game, for Ryo to know. Her name is in promotional materials up past release. If someone was inclined to know her name now, that information is available. It really has no bearing on how her character is portrayed in the game.

Also, you put "master manipulator" in quotes, and I'm fairly certain no one said that (or even particularly implied it). I personally said we can see that she enjoys manipulation, deceit, and setting people up in her games.

I don't think there's much to suggest that Lan Di considers the mirror a possession of his father's. There's a lot more to suggest that he sees what the mirrors unlock as his pearl of wisdom, chases after it like the dragon he is, and getting revenge was a nice bonus while he was on his real mission.

I thought that was really more of an easter egg. I mean it has those goofy pictures of his family...

You're saying Chai doesn't have his room set up in Niao Sun's headquarters, then?

Not that he's in the position of a random thug but you could swap him for any random thug or a new character and it wouldn't make a difference. That it's Chai specifically serves no narrative purpose except for the fact that he might have been able to tell someone about the Phoenix Mirror, but he's never shown doing that.

Yeah, I mean, I guess-- aside from the narrative purpose you just mentioned, that we can interpret for ourselves without having it spelled out for us.

I didn't say it would be good storytelling, I said it's how Shenmue does things. If we were supposed to know that Chai told Niao Sun about the Phoenix Mirror, there would have been some scene or reference to that happening. But regardless, we should know how Niao Sun knows that Ryo has it and Lan Di doesn't (otherwise why would he fly away in S2?) because as it stands, that hasn't been established.

It's clearly not how Shenmue does things, though. Anyway, since Ryo isn't going to witness Chai telling one of the CYM about the phoenix mirror, and there's really no reason for any of the CYM to bring it up in conversation with him, I don't really see your point.

I've wondered if it's a translation error myself but Master Chen says "Lan Di... I know of him. An organization called Chi You Men, its leader goes by that name."

- All references to there being only 1 mirror completely disappear after Ryo learns about both in S1, including the letter from Yuanda Zhu which seems to be written solely for what Ryo/the audience know at that point so that the existence of the Phoenix Mirror can be a surprise.

- Every character who magically knows where Lan Di is going to be in the next game (this is almost as bad as a monologue).

It's a translation error, then. Chen says that Lan Di is part of the group of officers in the CYM. Also the mirror isn't referenced in the singular, since there isn't a singular in Japanese. It's ambiguous up until the point that a second one is revealed. It's not something that breaks down on further inspection.

Zhu and Chen being people who have to be well informed, and as such, attempt to keep tabs on an official in a notorious organization, or Yuan potentially overhearing information while being detained by that organization, are nowhere near as bad as a monologue. It's not even remotely poorly done, the way most extended monologues in more modern entertainment are.


I cannot continue to waste my time like this.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Ren is taken aback when Ryo mentions that Lan Di is the man he's looking for and specifically says "Lan Di of the Chi You Men?". You don't think he'd mention something about Niao Sun of the Chi You Men in her base of operations?

Specifically this, it's understandable and a half.

1. CYM is located all across China, including Hong Kong.
2. They are the biggest of underworld gangs in China and Lan Di is the leader in HK (well, Eastern Branch).
3. Ren is involved in underworld gangs/crime and operates out of HK/Kowloon.
4. Niao Sun is the leader of the Southern Branch.
5. From what we know, Niao Sun does no go to HK

From those facts (and one hypothesis), it's pretty cut and dry how Ren would know about one and not the other.

 

[WuyingRen]

Specifically this, it's understandable and a half.

1. CYM is located all across China, including Hong Kong.
2. They are the biggest of underworld gangs in China and Lan Di is the leader in HK (well, Eastern Branch).
3. Ren is involved in underworld gangs/crime and operates out of HK/Kowloon.
4. Niao Sun is the leader of the Southern Branch.
5. From what we know, Niao Sun does no go to HK

From those facts (and one hypothesis), it's pretty cut and dry how Ren would know about one and not the other.

This is a great point, although Ren making a comment about her breasts rather than pointing out that it’s Niao-Sun should be enough to make it clear that Ren doesn’t know who she is.

 

[iknifaugood]

I brought this on myself, but I don't think you realize how taxing it is to go through this explosion of challenges you make to every minute detail, when half the time they don't particularly matter, or you're simply misinterpreting something.

What are you on about? You're the one borderline writing fanfic in your "interpretation" of the story. You need to stick to the text of the games.

You said "everyone" (in italics), but you rightly listed a handful because he's infamous in certain circles, as you acknowledge all of the CYM leaders likely are. I don't know what your argument really is anymore.

First of all, don't be pedantic; I obviously didn't mean that Sumiya-San knows who Lan Di is. My point is that the way that Shenmue establishes characters and reputations is very consistent across S1 and 2 and, judging S3 by those standards of storytelling, it does not establish the things that you claim it does.

I believe, based on some of your other comments, that you're hung up on this idea that she has to have a name that is called out by the end of the game in some way, or else she's poorly written, which is frankly silly. Nowhere is this a requirement. It is not a new thing to introduce characters without immediately giving their names. It simply wasn't an important detail, at the end of the game, for Ryo to know. Her name is in promotional materials up past release. If someone was inclined to know her name now, that information is available. It really has no bearing on how her character is portrayed in the game.

Not having a name doesn't necessarily indicate poor storytelling, but little things like not establishing what her reputation is, how she came to know about the Phoenix Mirror, what she plans on doing about the Dragon Mirror, what her motivations are, and the difference between her two personas are indicators (not that we need to know everything). Varys from A Song of Ice and Fire is a perfect example of how to do this kind of character right, but bear in mind he's also not the secondary antagonist.

Also, you put "master manipulator" in quotes, and I'm fairly certain no one said that (or even particularly implied it). I personally said we can see that she enjoys manipulation, deceit, and setting people up in her games.

Again, don't be pedantic. You said "she derives a great deal of pleasure from manipulating and deceiving people." and "We can get a sense that she enjoys making people dance in her web of deceit. She's able to manipulate and deceive even Shenhua.", which I shortened to "master manipulator". If you think that's an unfair characterization of your description, then you're free to rephrase it without describing how she's so good at manipulating people.

I don't think there's much to suggest that Lan Di considers the mirror a possession of his father's. There's a lot more to suggest that he sees what the mirrors unlock as his pearl of wisdom, chases after it like the dragon he is, and getting revenge was a nice bonus while he was on his real mission.

Is there a lot to consider the fact that he would not have it on his person at all times? Also, we know that the CYM are headed to the Cliff Temple, do you think Lan Di stored the Dragon Mirror there?

You're saying Chai doesn't have his room set up in Niao Sun's headquarters, then?

I'm saying that an easter egg that could be easily missed by the player and could have been put there as a joke by an artist or level designer is not and should not be considered canon. Especially not if you're trying to tell me that Chai was responsible for something as important as telling Niao Sun the location of the Phoenix Mirror.

Yeah, I mean, I guess-- aside from the narrative purpose you just mentioned, that we can interpret for ourselves without having it spelled out for us.

You yourself forgot that Chai even knew that Ryo had the mirror! (Which I don't blame you, nor anyone in the intervening 20 years for doing). Clearly, if Chai was meant to be the one who told Niao Sun about the mirror, S3 failed to convey that.

It's clearly not how Shenmue does things, though.

OK, I won't believe my lying eyes. We're expected to fill in massive gaps in the story in the same game where Ryo needs to recognize the pattern on the mirrors like this (1:00:10):

Anyway, since Ryo isn't going to witness Chai telling one of the CYM about the phoenix mirror, and there's really no reason for any of the CYM to bring it up in conversation with him, I don't really see your point.

Because that's not the only way to do it! When Ryo and Shenhua question Yanglang, he mentions that Chai is just a watchdog, meant to keep eyes on them. So Chai is working with the CYM, meaning he could have told them about the Phoenix Mirror at any time, which makes no sense because instead of going to Bailu Village to get it, they just...don't. As I said, the story only makes sense if Niao Sun finds out about it in Niaowu, which is a scene that's missing. That's my point: S3 is missing a scene where we find out how Niao Sun learns that Ryo has the mirror.

It's a translation error, then. Chen says that Lan Di is part of the group of officers in the CYM.

So Niao Sun doesn't say " "Lan Di... that fool. The Chi You Men belong to me now! Hahahaha!"? Pretty weird thing to say if there are 2 other leaders and a big boss.

Zhu and Chen being people who have to be well informed, and as such, attempt to keep tabs on an official in a notorious organization, or Yuan potentially overhearing information while being detained by that organization, are nowhere near as bad as a monologue. It's not even remotely poorly done, the way most extended monologues in more modern entertainment are.

Does Lan Di strike you as the type of person who blathers on about his next moves? It's fine in S1, because obviously Ryo has to go to HK and it's established that Lan Di used a middle man for transport, but it's fucking ridiculous that 3 games in a row end like that. It's also emblematic of another problem with Shenmue's storytelling; the fact that Ryo's quest for revenge has to also line up with the broader story of the mirrors so he constantly needs dual reasons to go to the places he goes to (because for some reason he still no longer values the bigger picture over petty vengeance) in increasingly convoluted ways.

I cannot continue to waste my time like this.

You should absolutely stop wasting your time writing fan fiction to fill in the gaps of the story and stick to the text. I don't really like MGSV but this video does wonders outlining the merits of that game without resorting to baseless theorizing and pulling from stuff the devs wanted to put in the game but didn't.

You can't answer these questions by sticking to the text because those answers simply aren't there:

- Niaowu being Niao Sun's base of operations? Where is this established or even implied? We learn that Lan Di is traveling to Guilin in S2 and we find him chilling in Niaowu in a castle; why isn't it his base of operations? Or the CYM's more broadly?

- Niao Sun deriving pleasure from manipulating others by making them dance in her web of deceit: where/how is this shown?

- Chai working for/reporting to Niao Sun and not Lan Di; when/why did he start doing this? If this is how she found out about the mirror then why didn't she take it from Ryo in Bailu Village?

- Why does Niao Sun betray Lan Di without taking the Dragon Mirror first?

- Why does Niao Sun declare the CYM "hers" if Lan Di isn't the boss? (especially if there are 2 other leaders and Tentei)

 

[WuyingRen]

Not having a name doesn't necessarily indicate poor storytelling, but little things like not establishing what her reputation is, how she came to know about the Phoenix Mirror, what she plans on doing about the Dragon Mirror, what her motivations are, and the difference between her two personas are indicators (not that we need to know everything). Varys from A Song of Ice and Fire is a perfect example of how to do this kind of character right, but bear in mind he's also not the secondary antagonist.

One could ask many of these questions about Lan Di. How did he come to know about the Dragon mirror? Why did he only know about one of the mirrors? Why does he want the mirror(s)?

These are questions that were raised right at the beginning of the first game and still haven’t been definitively answered and yet you’re getting worked up about questions asked right at the climax of the third?

 

[Dg1995]

You guys care too much about the story.

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."

-John Carmack

 

[WuyingRen]

You guys care too much about the story.

That’s all well and good when you’re making games about shooting nazis and demons, but it’s pretty narrow-minded to apply this philosophy to all video games. There’s a clear and obvious market for narrative driven video games and whilst I’m sure there might have been some people that waited nearly two decades just so they could play lucky hit and drive forklifts, I feel confident in saying that most people who waited for and backed Shenmue 3 did so in order to continue the story.