Response To SuperEyePatchWolf Shenmue 3 Review

[iknifaugood]

Specifically this, it's understandable and a half.

1. CYM is located all across China, including Hong Kong.
2. They are the biggest of underworld gangs in China and Lan Di is the leader in HK (well, Eastern Branch).
3. Ren is involved in underworld gangs/crime and operates out of HK/Kowloon.
4. Niao Sun is the leader of the Southern Branch.
5. From what we know, Niao Sun does no go to HK

From those facts (and one hypothesis), it's pretty cut and dry how Ren would know about one and not the other.

If any of that was established in the actual games, that'd be great and make perfect sense. I do not consider the 4 leaders, nor Tentei to be canon as they only exist as concept art at this point and haven't even been hinted at. If I'm generous, and grant you that all this stuff will eventually manifest in the story at some point (and I hope it does), my problem is that S3 appears to rely on this information without establishing it for the player. If I'm not generous, I can fill in the gaps using what we know from the games thusly:

1. Ren knows who Lan Di is because he's the boss of the CYM, he (and everyone else) doesn't know who Niao Sun is because she's just another CYM underling (like a capo compared to the don).

This is a great point, although Ren making a comment about her breasts rather than pointing out that it’s Niao-Sun should be enough to make it clear that Ren doesn’t know who she is.

I'm not the one claiming that Niaowu is Niao Sun's base of operations and that she's a leader of the CYM on par with Lan Di.

One could ask many of these questions about Lan Di. How did he come to know about the Dragon mirror? Why did he only know about one of the mirrors? Why does he want the mirror(s)?

I fully expect these questions to be answered but the problem is that it's established that Lan Di knows about both mirrors, he just didn't know that Iwao had both, which means that Niao Sun knows about both mirrors. So, going off the assumption that Lan Di keeps the Dragon Mirror on his person at all times (because why wouldn't he?), why would she play her cards early? None of the questions you pose about Lan Di are a problem for his motivation or how the story unfolds, however they are a problem for S3's story and Niao Sun's motivations.

These are questions that were raised right at the beginning of the first game and still haven’t been definitely answered and yet you’re getting worked up about questions asked right at the climax of the third?

Lan Di kills Iwao for vengeance and to take the mirror for mysterious reasons, the story is unraveling those reasons. Everything adds up so far.

Niao Sun knows Ryo has the mirror (how?), betrays Lan Di to gain control of the CYM, fails to procure the Dragon Mirror (why?), and is headed to the Cliff Temple (where she hopes to accomplish what with only one mirror?), the story is now about following her and Lan Di to the Cliff Temple.

This doesn't make sense because either:
1. Niao Sun intended to kill Lan Di in the fire to gain control of the CYM, if so, what of the Dragon Mirror?
2. Niao Sun intended for Lan Di to survive the fire and meet her at the Cliff Temple in which case, how can she control the CYM? And how can she hope to get the Dragon Mirror from Lan Di?

 

[WuyingRen]

Niao Sun knows Ryo has the mirror (how?), betrays Lan Di to gain control of the CYM, fails to procure the Dragon Mirror (why?), and is headed to the Cliff Temple (where she hopes to accomplish what with only one mirror?), the story is now about following her and Lan Di to the Cliff Temple.

This doesn't make sense because either:
1. Niao Sun intended to kill Lan Di in the fire to gain control of the CYM, if so, what of the Dragon Mirror?
2. Niao Sun intended for Lan Di to survive the fire and meet her at the Cliff Temple in which case, how can she control the CYM? And how can she hope to get the Dragon Mirror from Lan Di?

There’s a lot more evidence to help us speculate on how Niao-Sun knows that Ryo has the Phoenix mirror than there is to help us to speculate on how Lan Di knew that Iwao had the dragon mirror.

Perhaps her plan was to retrieve the mirror from Lan Di’s charred corpse. Perhaps she doesn’t know about the dragon mirror. Perhaps she knows where he’s hiding it. Perhaps she already has it. Perhaps Lan Di has already given the mirror to Tentei and so Tentei asked her to take him out.

Perhaps she is heading to the cliff temple because that’s where Lan Di is keeping the dragon mirror. Perhaps she’s heading there because that’s where Tentei is waiting.

I’m sure we’ll find out at some point down the line just as you’re sure that we’ll get answers about Lan Di.

 

[iknifaugood]

I just want to preface by saying that I'm not saying Shenmue's story doesn't/won't make sense in the future, but that it's a bit of a mess right now, several things are up in the air, and it doesn't make a ton of sense as of the ending to S3 (which we know was compromised during development). I don't expect everything to add up, in fact I think that's impossible given the change in writers and the massive time gap, but I expect it to add up enough to be satisfying.

There’s a lot more evidence to help us speculate on how Niao-Sun knows that Ryo has the Phoenix mirror than there is to help us to speculate on how Lan Di knew that Iwao had the dragon mirror.

It's not a problem that we don't know why Lan Di knew that Iwao had the Dragon Mirror because that's the inciting incident, nothing else has been established about him or the CYM at that point and everything we learn subsequently adds up (ie: that in S2, Lan Di flies away because he doesn't know that Ryo has the mirror). So, in S3, when Niao Sun magically knows that Ryo has the mirror without establishing how, this is a problem because it's an important piece of info that it's been established the main villain doesn't have. It's easy enough to assume that Niao Sun figured it out at some point while Ryo was in Niaowu, but we don't know for sure and for something that important (ie: the main motivation of the bad guys), imo, that's poor storytelling.

Perhaps her plan was to retrieve the mirror from Lan Di’s charred corpse. Perhaps she doesn’t know about the dragon mirror. Perhaps she knows where he’s hiding it. Perhaps she already has it. Perhaps Lan Di has already given the mirror to Tentei and so Tentei asked her to take him out.

Any one of these should have been established in S3, that's the point (Though Yuan makes it pretty clear that Lan Di survived and has the Dragon Mirror). S1 and 2 both tell self-contained stories; we do not need to wait for the sequels for those stories to make sense.

S1: Lan Di is going to HK with the Phoenix Mirror because his trip was facilitated by a middle man and he achieved his objective of killing Iwao and obtaining the mirror. We do not need to wait till S2 to find out why Lan Di is going to HK.

S2: Lan Di is going to Guilin to find out information on the Phoenix Mirror because that's where the descendants of the man who made them live, he doesn't know Ryo had it which is why he didn't drop down from the helicopter to beat it out of him. We do not need to wait till S3 to find out why Lan Di is doing what he's doing.

S3: Niao Sun has the Phoenix Mirror and control of the CYM; Lan Di has the Dragon Mirror. Both are headed to the Cliff Temple. What's at the Cliff Temple? Why are they going there? These are basic questions that were not lingering at the end of either of the previous games.

I’m sure we’ll find out at some point down the line just as you’re sure that we’ll get answers about Lan Di.

I'm sure we will as well, but that doesn't retroactively make S3 a well-told story given the massive leaps we have to make.

 

[WuyingRen]

I'm sure we will as well, but that doesn't retroactively make S3 a well-told story given the massive leaps we have to make.

Massive leaps? I think that perhaps the problem is with you here and not the story.

 

[iknifaugood]

Massive leaps? I think that perhaps the problem is with you here and not the story.

No, it's a problem with the story. Not naming or establishing the character of the villain, how one of the main plot points (Niao Sun finding out Ryo had the mirror) occurred, and what the bad guys' motivations are going forward are all MIA from S3. If you think that leads to a complete and well-told story, especially compared to previous entries in the series, then I think you need to raise your standards.

 

[Dg1995]

That’s all well and good when you’re making games about shooting nazis and demons, but it’s pretty narrow-minded to apply this philosophy to all video games. There’s a clear and obvious market for narrative driven video games and whilst I’m sure there might have been some people that waited nearly two decades just so they could play lucky hit and drive forklifts, I feel confident in saying that most people who waited for and backed Shenmue 3 did so in order to continue the story.

This isn't narrow minded at all.

Story isn't that important to the games at all. Gameplay is far more important than story.

-Tomb Raider angel Of Darkness has the best storyline in all TR games and yet that can't stop it from being the worst TR game.
-None of the players that play multiplayer games play them for the story.
-None of the fighting fans play the fighting games for their stories.
-Silent Hill games have the best story in horror games and yet the franchise gone downhill after the first game. Why ? Because team silent focused on story rather than focusing on making it's gameplay better.
-No one plays hack'n slash games for the stories.(Devil May Cry , Ninja Gaiden etc)
-In Batman Arkham games, stories are poor compared to it's cartoons but the games are still successful and popular.
-When people play Dungeons and Dragons, do they have to have a masterpiece storyline to enjoy the game ? No.
-When you are playing chess do you need a storyline ? No

Oh, And I never played Shenmue for Lucky hit and forklift. I played Shenmue for:
-It's atmosphere and soundtracks.
-Cool looking cutscenes.
-an open world that feels alive.
- NPCs that I can interact with.
-Being a 3D beat em up game.(Since I hate this that 3D beat'em up games are so few.)
- lots of mini games.
-exploration sections where I can just walk and look around without the worry of losing.

I never played Shenmue for the crappy storyline that it always had. The storyline has always been just a device to make Ryo go into different cities and villages and to make him fight different opponents.

 

[Sonoshee]

I feel confident in saying that most people who waited for and backed Shenmue 3 did so in order to continue the story.

For me personally, it was always about the story and the characters.
Yes, the atmosphere, mini-games etc all played a part in why I love this series so much, but it was the continuation of the story I longed for all these years.

I never played Shenmue for the crappy storyline that it always had. The storyline has always been just a device to make Ryo go into different cities and villages and to make him fight different opponents.

So incredibly wrong.

 

[The Hero Spot]

I never played Shenmue for the crappy storyline that it always had. The storyline has always been just a device to make Ryo go into different cities and villages and to make him fight different opponents.

how does Shenmue have a bad story? Ryo goes to different landmarks and locations to get closer to Lan Di and uncover more secrets about the mirrors along the way. it makes logical sense

plot device isn’t inherently a bad term, it simply means a technique used in storytelling to push the plot forward. Every story does this

plot devices become an issue when they lead to characters gaining plot armour and saving the day in very illogical ways. Shenmue doesn’t do that

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

This isn't narrow minded at all.

The story isn't that important to the games at all. The gameplay is far more important than the story.

-Tomb Raider Angel Of Darkness has the best storyline in all TR games and yet that can't stop it from being the worst TR game.
-None of the players that play multiplayer games play them for the story.
-None of the fighting fans play the fighting games for their stories.
-Silent Hill games have the best story in horror games and yet the franchise has gone downhill after the first game. Why? Because team silent focused on story rather than focusing on making it's gameplay better.
-No one plays hack'n slash games for the stories. (Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, etc)
-In Batman Arkham games, stories are poor compared to its cartoons but the games are still successful and popular.
-When people play Dungeons and Dragons, do they have to have a masterpiece storyline to enjoy the game? No.
-When you are playing chess do you need a storyline? No

Oh, And I never played Shenmue for Lucky hit and forklift. I played Shenmue for:
-It's atmosphere and soundtracks.
-Cool looking cutscenes.
-an open world that feels alive.
- NPCs that I can interact with.
-Being a 3D beat em up game. (Since I hate this that 3D beat'em up games are so few.)
- lots of mini-games.
-exploration sections where I can just walk and look around without the worry of losing.

I never played Shenmue for the crappy storyline that it always had. The storyline has always been just a device to make Ryo go into different cities and villages and to make him fight different opponents.

- Most would consider the Tomb Raider reboot to have a fairly decent story

- Never realized people who play Halo don't have any interest in the lore. All those guidebooks expanding the universe was just a waste of time.

- If that were the case, then why does Virtua Fighter struggle to find an audience? Why is Mortal Kombat IX praised for its story?

- Seriously disagree with you about the Arkham games having bad stories, especially Origins.

- Dungeons and Dragons doesn't need a Shakespearean tale, but it would enhance the experience.

Your reasons for enjoying Shenmue are your own, but I would contend that the reason Shenmue III received six million in Kickstarter funds was not because of its minigames or combat. I agree that gameplay is the most important element of any video game. However, a great narrative and lore enhances the experience for the player.

You really need to stop projecting your opinions as facts and assume everyone sees things the way you do.

 

[iknifaugood]

Story isn't that important to the games at all. Gameplay is far more important than story.

Much of what constitutes "gameplay" derives from what can only be considered "story"; I think you're confusing terms here.

Tomb Raider angel Of Darkness has the best storyline in all TR games and yet that can't stop it from being the worst TR game.

First of all, no it doesn't, that would be the TR Anniversary. Second of all, no it isn't, that would be TR Chronicles.

None of the players that play multiplayer games play them for the story.

When people play Dungeons and Dragons, do they have to have a masterpiece storyline to enjoy the game ? No.

When you are playing chess do you need a storyline ? No

Games are a diverse medium, they don't need to have anything in common beyond interactivity. There are games that strive to be entertaining more along the lines of cinema and games that aim to be more like sports. One isn't more "game" than the other.

None of the fighting fans play the fighting games for their stories.

No, but like multiplayer games, aspects of a story definitely play a role. Who's your favorite Street Fighter character? Most of what determines who they are are elements of storytelling (Ryu is from Japan, he's determined, heroic, etc.); surely you agree that the game wouldn't be nearly as popular with abstract shapes that could perform the same moves.

Silent Hill games have the best story in horror games and yet the franchise gone downhill after the first game.

Last time I checked, Silent Hill 2 came out after 1 and that's a goddamn masterpiece.

No one plays hack'n slash games for the stories.(Devil May Cry , Ninja Gaiden etc)

There is no way in HELL you're going to tell me that DMC would be the same without it's rockin' aesthetic and Dante's over-the-top personality. It's a character action game ffs!

In Batman Arkham games, stories are poor compared to it's cartoons but the games are still successful and popular.

What's wrong with the story to Arkham City? I thought it was pretty good. Also the Arkham games get by on the Batman IP, and I don't think I need to explain to you that the appeal of being Batman and fighting his villains in his city is all story related...

The storyline has always been just a device to make Ryo go into different cities and villages and to make him fight different opponents.

I mean there are several plot points that have been set up since the first game that are the main driving force behind Ryo going to different cities. And again, different cities, different opponents, cutscenes, and atmosphere are all? Say it with me: STORY!

Perhaps you meant to say that games don't necessarily need to have good plots, which I agree with. But then, neither do movies or TV shows...

 

[mjqjazzbar]

This isn't narrow minded at all.

Story isn't that important to the games at all. Gameplay is far more important than story.

-Tomb Raider angel Of Darkness has the best storyline in all TR games and yet that can't stop it from being the worst TR game.
-None of the players that play multiplayer games play them for the story.
-None of the fighting fans play the fighting games for their stories.
-Silent Hill games have the best story in horror games and yet the franchise gone downhill after the first game. Why ? Because team silent focused on story rather than focusing on making it's gameplay better.
-No one plays hack'n slash games for the stories.(Devil May Cry , Ninja Gaiden etc)
-In Batman Arkham games, stories are poor compared to it's cartoons but the games are still successful and popular.
-When people play Dungeons and Dragons, do they have to have a masterpiece storyline to enjoy the game ? No.
-When you are playing chess do you need a storyline ? No

Oh, And I never played Shenmue for Lucky hit and forklift. I played Shenmue for:
-It's atmosphere and soundtracks.
-Cool looking cutscenes.
-an open world that feels alive.
- NPCs that I can interact with.
-Being a 3D beat em up game.(Since I hate this that 3D beat'em up games are so few.)
- lots of mini games.
-exploration sections where I can just walk and look around without the worry of losing.

I never played Shenmue for the crappy storyline that it always had. The storyline has always been just a device to make Ryo go into different cities and villages and to make him fight different opponents.

So now Shenmue always had a crappy storyline and Shenmue 1 & 2 feature terrible combat.

Let me cut it short: very few people waited 15 years for Shenmue 3 because they thought Shenmue 1 & 2 had cool cutscenes, NPCs to interact with or because they really enjoyed the mini games. What you're arguing, if you're even genuine, is so outside the realm of believability that it's not even worth engaging.

It's nice you like defending Shenmue 3. I think it's touching, honestly. I'm all for supporting and believing in things I enjoy. But come on, man. You're starting to come across as a huge troll, or a very young kid.

 

[Suzaku]

I think the truth is in the middle.

Shenmue is a special esperience because of its complete package (atmosphere, story, themes, settings, characters, activities and minigames, the simulation of a living world, the best open world formula, the ost, npc dialogues, the battle system etc.).

That's why we are here after 20 years, not just for a single element.

 

[Dg1995]

how does Shenmue have a bad story? Ryo goes to different landmarks and locations to get closer to Lan Di and uncover more secrets about the mirrors along the way. it makes logical sense

plot device isn’t inherently a bad term, it simply means a technique used in storytelling to push the plot forward. Every story does this

plot devices become an issue when they lead to characters gaining plot armour and saving the day in very illogical ways. Shenmue doesn’t do that

1.Every Shenmue sequel relies too much on previous games stories. So, newcomers can't really understand what is going on. Yeah, making a 15-20 minutes previously movie doesn't fix it. The story should be able to stand on it's own.

2.Ryo lasted only 1 second against Lan Di in the first game he also saw that his father couldn't even land a blow on him.
And yet what does he decide to do ?
To search for him and have another 1 second fight with him. He doesn't even want to actually get better in martial arts . His motivation is poorly written.

3.Shenmue 1 wasted a lot of time in Yokosuka and introduced lots of filler sub plots to slow the pacing of the story.(And the whole Nozomi sub plot wasn't important at all for the whole Storyline since Shenhua is going to become Ryo's love interest. Ryo also fought the mad angels but was it important at all ? no.)

4.Shenmue never had any closure in the first game. Rule number 1 of story writing is to give the story some kind of closure in the end of the first chapter so that if it becomes a failure then the fans will have a closure to the story.
-Tolkien made an ending for the Hobbit since he wasn't sure if it sells well enough.
-George Lucas gave Star Wars an ending in it's first movie because similar to Tolkien he wasn't sure that Star Wars would become successful.

5.The whole game wants to tell you that "Revenge is bad." and yet in the bad ending you can see that if Ryo has really abandoned searching for Lan Di then Lan Di would come to his home and kill him in 1 second.

6.And finally, none of Ryo's adventures has changed him at all. People on the internet bash Shenmue 3 for that even though that 1 and 2 had the same problem too.

Last time I checked, Silent Hill 2 came out after 1 and that's a goddamn masterpiece.

Nah, it only had better story and graphics than 1 with exactly the same gameplay , no improvements to gameplay, much less enemy types, worse bossfights and badly balanced hard difficulty.(That ruins some sections of the game.)
Silent Hill 2 sold half copies compared to SH 1 then after than came SH 3 and 4 which became less and less successful than SH 2.
Because Silent Hill developers focused more on graphics and storyline than on actual gameplay.(On the other hand Capcom always focused on improving RE's gameplay with every sequel.Even RE 3 remake had more gameplay improvements compared to Silent Hill 2.)

 

[iknifaugood]

1.Every Shenmue sequel relies too much on previous games stories. So, newcomers can't really understand what is going on. Yeah, making a 15-20 minutes previously movie doesn't fix it. The story should be able to stand on it's own.

This isn't a criticism of the story, this is more a criticism of the marketing. You think anyone should be able to just start season 3 of Breaking Bad and understand what's going on?

2.Ryo lasted only 1 second against Lan Di in the first game he also saw that his father couldn't even land a blow on him.
And yet what does he decide to do ?
To search for him and have another 1 second fight with him. He doesn't even want to actually get better in martial arts . His motivation is poorly written.

I actually semi-agree with this point. It's ridiculous that S3 ends with Ryo losing a fight to Lan Di only to delusionally pick another fight with him in the sequel. S3 should've seen Ryo lose to Lan Di near the midpoint and by the end he should have a deeper understanding of what's at stake in the broader narrative (his destiny, the mirrors, defeating the CYM etc.).

3.Shenmue 1 wasted a lot of time in Yokosuka and introduced lots of filler sub plots to slow the pacing of the story.(And the whole Nozomi sub plot wasn't important at all for the whole Storyline since Shenhua is going to become Ryo's love interest. Ryo also fought the mad angels but was it important at all ? no.)

Shenmue 1 and 2 were originally supposed to be one game. Imo the decision that sealed the fate of the series was splitting them up and padding out S1 to be a standalone game. It doesn't have enough story to sustain its length and so they had to fill it with stuff that's largely inconsequential to the overall story; which gave people the wrong impression of the series from the get go (to this day people recall Shenmue as a weird Japanese life-simulator).

4.Shenmue never had any closure in the first game. Rule number 1 of story writing is to give the story some kind of closure in the end of the first chapter so that if it becomes a failure then the fans will have a closure to the story.
-Tolkien made an ending for the Hobbit since he wasn't sure if it sells well enough.
-George Lucas gave Star Wars an ending in it's first movie because similar to Tolkien he wasn't sure that Star Wars would become successful.

I'm not sure that you can consider this "rule number 1". Tolkien may have ended the Hobbit (a children's book) decisively, but he absolutely didn't end Fellowship that way. Which do you think Shenmue has more in common with? Again, this is less a criticism of the story and more a criticism of the marketing.

5.The whole game wants to tell you that "Revenge is bad." and yet in the bad ending you can see that if Ryo has really abandoned searching for Lan Di then Lan Di would come to his home and kill him in 1 second.

This is another point that I agree with you on for very different reasons. Shenmue is going to have to confront the issue of the CYM being a threat to potentially the world that needs to be stopped. It's been said dozens of times throughout the game that Ryo killing Lan Di for vengeance is wrong but would it be wrong if he killed him to save the world?

6.And finally, none of Ryo's adventures has changed him at all. People on the internet bash Shenmue 3 for that even though that 1 and 2 had the same problem too.

S1 and 2 can essentially be considered "Part 1" and I would say that Ryo grows but doesn't necessarily change, which is fine for the first part (Frodo similarly doesn't really "change" in Fellowship). Agreed that his character should've progressed more by the end of S3 though.

Nah, it only had better story and graphics than 1 with exactly the same gameplay , no improvements to gameplay, much less enemy types, worse bossfights and badly balanced hard difficulty.(That ruins some sections of the game.)

To each their own. I like it better than SH1. But I also liked SH3

Silent Hill 2 sold half copies compared to SH 1 then after than came SH 3 and 4 which became less and less successful than SH 2.
Because Silent Hill developers focused more on graphics and storyline than on actual gameplay.

This is a stupid argument. Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, Farcry etc. have essentially been releasing the same game for over a decade and their sales have either remained steady or increased. In fact, one of the biggest blunders in CoD history was Infinite Warfare, where all they did was change the setting (AKA "Story"). Alternatively, Naughty Dog has doubled down on storytelling in their games and their sales have increased exponentially (see Uncharted 4 vs. Crash Bandicoot).

(On the other hand Capcom always focused on improving RE's gameplay with every sequel.Even RE 3 remake had more gameplay improvements compared to Silent Hill 2.)

What? Capcom has been routinely criticized for making RE increasingly action oriented until finally returning to its horror roots with RE7. If anything, people like the series more now because of the remakes.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

1. Every Shenmue sequel relies too much on previous game stories. So, newcomers can't really understand what is going on. Yeah, making a 15-20 minutes previously movie doesn't fix it. The story should be able to stand on its own.

2. Ryo lasted only 1 second against Lan Di in the first game he also saw that his father couldn't even land a blow on him.
And yet what does he decide to do?
To search for him and have another 1-second fight with him. He doesn't even want to actually get better in martial arts. His motivation is poorly written.

3. Shenmue 1 wasted a lot of time in Yokosuka and introduced lots of filler subplots to slow the pacing of the story. (And the whole Nozomi subplot wasn't important at all for the whole Storyline since Shenhua is going to become Ryo's love interest. Ryo also fought the mad angels but was it important at all? no.)

4. Shenmue never had any closure in the first game. Rule number 1 of story writing is to give the story some kind of closure at the end of the first chapter so that if it becomes a failure then the fans will have closure to the story.
-Tolkien made an ending for the Hobbit since he wasn't sure if it sells well enough.
-George Lucas gave Star Wars an ending in its first movie because similar to Tolkien he wasn't sure that Star Wars would become successful.

5. The whole game wants to tell you that "Revenge is bad." and yet in the bad ending, you can see that if Ryo has really abandoned searching for Lan Di then Lan Di would come to his home and kill him in 1 second.

6. And finally, none of Ryo's adventures has changed him at all. People on the internet bash Shenmue 3 for that even though that 1 and 2 had the same problem too.

Nah, it only had better story and graphics than 1 with exactly the same gameplay, no improvements to gameplay, much fewer enemy types, worse boss fights, and badly balanced hard difficulty. (That ruins some sections of the game.)
Silent Hill 2 sold half copies compared to SH 1 then after than came SH 3 and 4 which became less and less successful than SH 2.
Because Silent Hill developers focused more on graphics and storyline than on actual gameplay. (On the other hand, Capcom always focused on improving RE's gameplay with every sequel. Even RE 3 remake had more gameplay improvements compared to Silent Hill 2.)

I). It's not an author's obligation to constantly hold the audiences' hand. There needs to be a proper balance between getting audiences up to speed and moving the story forward. In Shenmue's case, the story is a simple one for audiences to catch up on.

II). This point would actually have some merit if the story wasn't forty percent complete.

III). I don't see how it was filler since the whole Mad Angels plot was to lead Ryo to Longsun Zhao with the narrative constantly teasing you about him still being in Yokosuka. Also at this point in the story, Ryo was at a dead end. Both Chen and Ine-san refused to help Ryo get to Hong Kong and when he tried to do it himself, he was scammed out of his money. Also, it's highly presumptuous of you to assume that Shenhua will be Ryo's love interest when the story is only forty percent complete. Finally, this "filler" gave time for the other characters to become more endearing to the player.

IV). What makes Shenmue's story wonderful is its slow pacing. When done correctly, the payoff is gratifying which I felt Shenmue Chapter One: Yokosuka excelled at. By showing the audience how intimate his relationships were in Yokosuka, it becomes all the more painful when he leaves. It provided closure for one chapter in his life and the opening of a new one. In other words, not only did it provide closure, but yearning for more which is a sign of an excellent story.

V). Except you're overlooking the fact that it was Ryo who idiotically charges towards Longsun Zhao. All he wanted was the Phoenix Mirror and only killed Ryo in self-defense. Besides, why does this ending matter since it's non-canon?

VI). Except the story is only forty percent complete.

Once again, I seriously doubt Shenmue became the highest-grossing gaming Kickstarter simply for the minigames and combat. I may have my issues with Shenmue III's story, but the story that got me to Shenmue III is an amazing one.

 

[bcdcdude]

So seeing different people say different things about why they like Shenmue is probably the reason why Yu-san tried to make everybody happy and not succeeding in that respect. The poor guy is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Sonoshee]

So seeing different people say different things about why they like Shenmue is probably the reason why Yu-san tried to make everybody happy and not succeeding in that respect. The poor guy is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

This is why I believe that he needs to make his own game with Shenmue 4 and not try to please everyone like he did with Shenmue 3. His hands were kinda tied with all the Kickstarter promises.

Also hearing how he put all his heart into making Shenmue 3 just for people to rip it a new one is heart-breaking to say the least.

 

[ShenSun]

Shenmue 3 had the caption "for the fans, by the fans"

Shenmue 4 should be...

Shenmue 4 "F*k the fans"

Hopefully he makes what he wants now. He no longer has the whiney outrage ks backers abusing him at every opportunity, or the shenmue karens (sharens) moaning amd complaining about everything.

He operates best when you just leave him to do his thing, as shown by all of his previous work

 

[bcdcdude]

This is why I believe that he needs to make his own game with Shenmue 4 and not try to please everyone like he did with Shenmue 3. His hands were kinda tied with all the Kickstarter promises.

Also hearing how he put all his heart into making Shenmue 3 just for people to rip it a new one is heart-breaking to say the least.

This is what I take away from the game after I finished it. Some bits annoyed me and disappointed me, but I know that Yu-san's intention and sincerity was pure and true. Could things be better? Sure, but given the situation with the Kickstarter politics and policies and the budget, it's a bloody miracle that we have a game for people to bitch and moan about in the first place.

When the game worked, it truly did and his enthusiasm and love for the series shone through. You can't fake that level of sincerity.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

While I think fans shouldn't have creative control over Yu's vision, I think dismissing fans is also a bad idea. The message this conveys is that the seventy thousand people who brought Shenmue back don't matter. Shenmue, in reality, is a product that needs to sell in order to justify its existence. So on some level, you have to be willing to at least listen to your fanbase.

Also, while I don't know Yu Suzuki's mindset at all, I would assume he's not allergic to criticism since he's a perfectionist himself. Then there's a simple fact that in the IGN Japan interview Suzuki stated he wanted to broaden Shenmue's appeal if he makes the fourth game. Isolating himself would only be counterproductive to that ends.

In other words, I believe there needs to be a balance between the fans who offer constructive criticism and following your artistic vision.