Ryo move bloopers

[Shadab]

I know the crawl cyclone move was retconned in S3. However, the move that Ryo beats chai with at the end of the Bailu section, cannot be gotten until you reach Niaowu at the temple.

It’s really bugging me as it’s too obvious a blooper for a game all about martial arts moves. Especially in Shenmue 1, how the double blow gets used in a QTE if you have learnt it, or in Shenmue 2 using the mantis combo. But I've seen a video of Yu Suzuki demonstrating the move for motion capture.

Does anyone know if that hand move can be obtained in Bailu village, if not then it’s a blooper as Ryo never knew it.

If not then maybe you the plan was to get the move in Bailu but during development it got changed last minute...

Also, the body blow move in Niaowu that we learn is exactly the same as the move we use in Bailu, just mirrored. I find it odd that this also never gets mentioned in forums, that we spend so long in the 2nd town getting so much money together to literally learn the same move as Bailu village. Surely another move could’ve been used as they must have motion captured 2 versions of this move.

I feel both these things cannot be blamed by the budget and annoy me, so thought I would gather some thoughts on it.

I’m hoping to ask Yu Suzuki about this at the next magic monaco, if it happens next year… during the 5 second window I get while getting my copy of Shenmue signed...

Seeing Yu Suzuki talk about how fans loved this game in his latest interview and mentioning minor improvements like quest markers on the map, makes me feel that all he's getting told by the fans is that the game is near perfect. The guy working for IGN japan only had great things to say about the game, but this way we won't see an improvement, if everyone is just hiding the truth from Yu.

The IGN guy was in a great position to voice concerns, about how Niao Sun's character twist is pointless, or how there isn't a single memorable character in S3. They get called by names like broom girl or Mr muscles...

These issues should be mentioned, Shenmue is a game about martial arts and learning moves is so important in each game, unless I'm wrong about the top 2 issues these are bloopers that should not have happened.

 

[spud1897]

I really wouldn't worry too much about it. Someone would have to check the game to verify it but I'm sure the move can't be bought before Niaowu. Secondly it's an optional move (he uses it at the end v Lan Di's guards) so they probably ran out of time to mocap a sequence to learn it in the formal manner you do the body check which is an animated QTE. That comes down to cost and budget.

The body check issue has been discussed more times than I can count on here. Check out the general impressions topic and you will see what I mean.

Also in the IGN Japan interview Yu himself has commented on what he would like to improve. Yes the interview was done in a respectable way by Esra who probably wanted to keep the bridges he's built with YSNET. They would have heard the criticisms, but also remember theres more fans, wider than here who liked the game than didn't. Why would Embracer (parent firm of Deep Silver) mention that in a financial report if it didnt have substance? We also forget that while the issues are well known, they've been repeated to death that the actual wider reception from fans has been forgotten and that wider reception is better than you might expect. Yes reviews are mixed overall and not solely baseless (some saying its dated etc miss the actual fair criticisms) but its sitting nearer a 7/10 than anywhere else which isn't horrendous.

Also consider feedback from reviews that we know Yu Suzuki has read. Hence the wish to make changes to the system to accommodate some improvements. He also mentioned in the same interview the wish to go into the backstory of Shenhua and Ren more in Shenmue 4. So that in itself would begin to address the story concerns. Who is also to say they didnt discuss this in detail but didnt publish it because of an agreement with YSNET. The original IGN Japan review even states the story is thin towards the end and Esra is the type to mention this, if not publish it formally at this stage.

I'm not worried about the improvements because Yu Suzuki seems aware from the interview that he needs to improve/build things.

Again most of this has been discussed via several topics, either in general impressions or the IGN Japan interview thread. Check those out @Shadab It will answer some (if not all) questions in this thread.

 

[Shadab]

Okay thanks Spud, I'll go through the other posts. Naturally I want S4 more than anything and want it to be the best it can be.

 

[Rydeen]

Also, the body blow move in Niaowu that we learn is exactly the same as the move we use in Bailu, just mirrored.

No, they're actually different techniques. They come from Akira's moveset, but they're based on real techniques as well.

Here's what they look like when Akira performs them, to maybe better illustrate the differences (I don't know what they called them in English translation for III, though--):

Tetsuzankou (the move Ryo learns from Son in Bailu) (1:59)


Youshi Senrin (the move Ryo learns from Bai in Niaowu) (1:57)


Tetsuzankou is truly a technique used in Bajiquan, and it's used like Akira uses it, by basically meeting an opponent's forward momentum with the back of the shoulder. Ryo actually performs Tetsuzankou (sort of) against Yanglang, but he steps to the outside of Yanglang's foot, and throws the shoulder at him after Yanglang's momentum is carrying him away from Ryo, which is not (strictly speaking) correct, but it doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the techniques are different.

Youshi Senrin seems to be based on some techniques from other forms of Chinese martial arts (I can't find anything that links it specifically to Bajiquan), that also use shoulder strikes, where instead of just stepping into someone with the shoulder, they parry the oncoming attack, and then throw the back of the shoulder into the opponent's side--again, just like Akira. Ryo does this one pretty well. No real critiques.

Anyway, to summarize: Tetsuzankou is just a shoulder strike. Youshi Senrin is a parry into a shoulder strike. Their utilities are quite different.

 

[xatruio]

No, they're actually different techniques. They come from Akira's moveset, but they're based on real techniques as well.

[...]

Tetsuzankou is truly a technique used in Bajiquan, and it's used like Akira uses it, by basically meeting an opponent's forward momentum with the back of the shoulder. Ryo actually performs Tetsuzankou (sort of) against Yanglang, but he steps to the outside of Yanglang's foot, and throws the shoulder at him after Yanglang's momentum is carrying him away from Ryo, which is not (strictly speaking) correct, but it doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the techniques are different.

Youshi Senrin seems to be based on some techniques from other forms of Chinese martial arts (I can't find anything that links it specifically to Bajiquan), that also use shoulder strikes, where instead of just stepping into someone with the shoulder, they parry the oncoming attack, and then throw the back of the shoulder into the opponent's side--again, just like Akira. Ryo does this one pretty well. No real critiques.

Anyway, to summarize: Tetsuzankou is just a shoulder strike. Youshi Senrin is a parry into a shoulder strike. Their utilities are quite different.

THANK YOU!!! I knew they were similar on surface, but different. Hate when people say it is the same move repeated. Obviously the budget didn't allow a completely different move, but they aren't exact same.

 

[chaikilla]

I know the crawl cyclone move was retconned in S3. However, the move that Ryo beats chai with at the end of the Bailu section, cannot be gotten until you reach Niaowu at the temple.

It’s really bugging me as it’s too obvious a blooper for a game all about martial arts moves. Especially in Shenmue 1, how the double blow gets used in a QTE if you have learnt it, or in Shenmue 2 using the mantis combo. But I've seen a video of Yu Suzuki demonstrating the move for motion capture.

Does anyone know if that hand move can be obtained in Bailu village, if not then it’s a blooper as Ryo never knew it.

If not then maybe you the plan was to get the move in Bailu but during development it got changed last minute...

Also, the body blow move in Niaowu that we learn is exactly the same as the move we use in Bailu, just mirrored. I find it odd that this also never gets mentioned in forums, that we spend so long in the 2nd town getting so much money together to literally learn the same move as Bailu village. Surely another move could’ve been used as they must have motion captured 2 versions of this move.

I feel both these things cannot be blamed by the budget and annoy me, so thought I would gather some thoughts on it.

I’m hoping to ask Yu Suzuki about this at the next magic monaco, if it happens next year… during the 5 second window I get while getting my copy of Shenmue signed...

Seeing Yu Suzuki talk about how fans loved this game in his latest interview and mentioning minor improvements like quest markers on the map, makes me feel that all he's getting told by the fans is that the game is near perfect. The guy working for IGN japan only had great things to say about the game, but this way we won't see an improvement, if everyone is just hiding the truth from Yu.

The IGN guy was in a great position to voice concerns, about how Niao Sun's character twist is pointless, or how there isn't a single memorable character in S3. They get called by names like broom girl or Mr muscles...

These issues should be mentioned, Shenmue is a game about martial arts and learning moves is so important in each game, unless I'm wrong about the top 2 issues these are bloopers that should not have happened.

This is why it is important that we shouldn't feel shamed into constructively criticizing Shenmue 3. It shouldn't just be dismissed as 'negativity'. Like you said, Yu listens to the fans and is willing to make changes based on what we feedback to him. A great example of this is that he is intent on implementing throws in Shenmue 4 because of the complaints about a lack of them in third game. This is an example of how feedback can be the catalyst for positive change.

But this works both ways. If we hide our feelings about the flaws of Shenmue 3 then we will just get to experience all those flaws again in the next title. I would prefer if Yu just sticks to his original plan for the series as much as possible and trusts his own instincts on how to make the next game. Trying too hard to appease fans in the last game culminated in him inserting capsule toy machines and lucky hit stands into Bailu village, even when they seemed out of place. There's interviews of him talking about how he was thinking of way to implement them in Shenmue 3 (near the start of production) when asked if they would be included in the game.

I feel like he's likely to be very responsive to our desires in the next game, so we have to make sure we ask for the right things and point out the stuff that we didn't like.

 

[Shadab]

No, they're actually different techniques. They come from Akira's moveset, but they're based on real techniques as well.

Here's what they look like when Akira performs them, to maybe better illustrate the differences (I don't know what they called them in English translation for III, though--):

Tetsuzankou (the move Ryo learns from Son in Bailu) (1:59)


Youshi Senrin (the move Ryo learns from Bai in Niaowu) (1:57)


Tetsuzankou is truly a technique used in Bajiquan, and it's used like Akira uses it, by basically meeting an opponent's forward momentum with the back of the shoulder. Ryo actually performs Tetsuzankou (sort of) against Yanglang, but he steps to the outside of Yanglang's foot, and throws the shoulder at him after Yanglang's momentum is carrying him away from Ryo, which is not (strictly speaking) correct, but it doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the techniques are different.

Youshi Senrin seems to be based on some techniques from other forms of Chinese martial arts (I can't find anything that links it specifically to Bajiquan), that also use shoulder strikes, where instead of just stepping into someone with the shoulder, they parry the oncoming attack, and then throw the back of the shoulder into the opponent's side--again, just like Akira. Ryo does this one pretty well. No real critiques.

Anyway, to summarize: Tetsuzankou is just a shoulder strike. Youshi Senrin is a parry into a shoulder strike. Their utilities are quite different.

Many thanks for the clarification

 

[Shadab]

THANK YOU!!! I knew they were similar on surface, but different. Hate when people say it is the same move repeated. Obviously the budget didn't allow a completely different move, but they aren't exact same.

I don't think this can be attributed to budget just because we are fans. I've attached screenshots of the final frame of each move and Ryo's right hand is open in one and closed in the other. So they didn't use the same motion capture footage for both moves, meaning this was motion captured twice.

This means there was enough budget and time as the moves were recorded separately, to have a move that was significantly different to the first. Again this aided in the negative press of players going through a whole town to get to the end boss and beat him with what looked like the same move.

The first is a dodge though and the second is a parry which I can see now.

 

[Shadab]

This is why it is important that we shouldn't feel shamed into constructively criticizing Shenmue 3. It shouldn't just be dismissed as 'negativity'. Like you said, Yu listens to the fans and is willing to make changes based on what we feedback to him. A great example of this is that he is intent on implementing throws in Shenmue 4 because of the complaints about a lack of them in third game. This is an example of how feedback can be the catalyst for positive change.

But this works both ways. If we hide our feelings about the flaws of Shenmue 3 then we will just get to experience all those flaws again in the next title. I would prefer if Yu just sticks to his original plan for the series as much as possible and trusts his own instincts on how to make the next game. Trying too hard to appease fans in the last game culminated in him inserting capsule toy machines and lucky hit stands into Bailu village, even when they seemed out of place. There's interviews of him talking about how he was thinking of way to implement them in Shenmue 3 (near the start of production) when asked if they would be included in the game.

I feel like he's likely to be very responsive to our desires in the next game, so we have to make sure we ask for the right things and point out the stuff that we didn't like.

I agree, we're all backers here and want Shenmue 4. I also understand that feedback needs to be given respectively. However I am against fans stating the game is near perfect directly to Yu Suzuki, as then nothing will change.

it does seem like our voices are being heard. I'm just waiting on confirmation of S4 development. Yu Suzuki always takes on feedback and changed a lot of things in S2 based on feedback from S1, like a time skip feature.

 

[spud1897]

I agree, we're all backers here and want Shenmue 4. I also understand that feedback needs to be given respectively. However I am against fans stating the game is near perfect directly to Yu Suzuki, as then nothing will change.

it does seem like our voices are being heard. I'm just waiting on confirmation of S4 development. Yu Suzuki always takes on feedback and changed a lot of things in S2 based on feedback from S1, like a time skip feature.

He does which is good.

It's also important that we stay vocal in our support for the series. If we show that the fans want Shenmue 4 I'm sure it will happen. If thay subsides thay becomes much less likely.

 

[xatruio]

I don't think this can be attributed to budget just because we are fans. I've attached screenshots of the final frame of each move and Ryo's right hand is open in one and closed in the other. So they didn't use the same motion capture footage for both moves, meaning this was motion captured twice.

This means there was enough budget and time as the moves were recorded separately, to have a move that was significantly different to the first. Again this aided in the negative press of players going through a whole town to get to the end boss and beat him with what looked like the same move.

The first is a dodge though and the second is a parry which I can see now.

Still gotta animate and program the mo-cap, though.